Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Pyra]

Honestly, with a 70+ character roster, I don't know what more do people want. The roster is already absolutely huge as is and if the currently known roster was the final, it would already be an insane roster. But we're getting more and potentially even more through DLC and other updates. I don't think anyone here is appreciating the magnitude of that.

You all are wanting to be right but I know for sure I won't be taking any Ls here because I don't peddle baseless speculation and conspiracy theories unlike a large chunk of this fanbase.

How about we look at the facts? How about we look on what is actually known about the development process of the Smash games via Directs, blog posts from official sites and Sakurai's Famitsu columns? You can look at boxes or chairs. I'll stick with the facts.

Bruh you and me both.
Game looks A+ to me already
As far as I care I've already won. I can beat Ridley up as Isabelle. K. Rool is in the game at all. I'm good.
It doesn't help that people are conflating their theories and counterpoints as if they're facts already anyway.


Facts: K. Rool can now team up with Ryu to beat the tar out of Pac-Man and Mr. Game and Watch.
I mean, come on dudes lol

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

It has to be 72. Smashdown requires the roster to be divisible by 4.

 

[Meritocracy]

In the base game

Good for you, five guy's who wanted him before Vergeben said it wasn't Decidueye, but can we get something better for DLC please? (Not exactly, I'm cool with the game right now, but I'd be holding out hope for DLC for sure

 

[Spinosaurus]

All that said, this isn't the first time they mislead with their marketing.
They've updated their marketing with new characters constantly. Pic related is an actual pamphlet they handed out at stores, and it's already outdated.

Does the pamphlet have a very specific, weird pattern that strongly suggests a heavily rumored character is in?

That's the main difference here.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You honestly expect the Smash community to take the L?

No because they'd get buried alive unders Ls and you'd hear a muffled "I KNEW there was a pattern"

 

[SamDunk]

Wii fighters and pokemon trainer count as 1

I see, thank you. Seems plausible then.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

Honestly, I should look on the bright side: If the box theory is true, it means Steve won’t be playable.
If Minecraft or Undertale get playable reps I will not even give this game the time of day, so if the box theory is true that’s definitely a good thing.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Someone on 4chan said this so credit to whoever it was
View attachment 164440

If we're going to believe this, then there'd only be 2 left, since Echos are clearly shown on that box to be in separate "slots" and counting echos we have 70 slots. The about page says 72, but it's counting Miis as 3 while they're only one on the box there.

All that said, this isn't the first time they mislead with their marketing.
They've updated their marketing with new characters constantly. Pic related is an actual pamphlet they handed out at stores, and it's already outdated.

We see the mii fighters on the side of the box. all mashed up.

 

[Deleted member]

The amount of people seemingly getting bent out of shape over others believing in the box theory and later possibly being surprised instead of disappointed if it turns out false is baffling...

It's not hurting anyone and is the more logical approach given the evidence we do have that Scoliosis, Vaanrose and others have pointed out so I don't see the problem. Just a lot of denial IMO with no actual arguments against. Only thing I've really seen over the last 20 - 30+ pages is "I don't want to believe it because I don't want this to end up being true" or some similar reasoning.

There's been actual arguments made against it that sound reasonable. The problem a lot are having is claiming it's 100% impossible for anything to be a placeholder or for Verge to be wrong. Nothing posted for the box theory has really been ironclad evidence, it's been speculation and ideas, just like the people trying to disprove it.

 

[LetterO]

The amount of people seemingly getting bent out of shape over others believing in the box theory and later possibly being surprised instead of disappointed if it turns out false is baffling...

It's not hurting anyone and is the more logical approach given the evidence we do have that Scoliosis, Vaanrose and others have pointed out so I don't see the problem. Just a lot of denial IMO with no actual arguments against. Only thing I've really seen over the last 20 - 30+ pages is "I don't want to believe it because I don't want this to end up being true" or some similar reasoning.

Here's reasoning in that case.

-It's boxart that can be changed
-Sakurai would not let this slip past his radar
-The boxart would be covered up by now just like how Ganon and Lucario got leaked.
-It is boxart

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Honestly, I should look on the bright side: If the box theory is true, it means Steve won’t be playable.
If Minecraft or Undertale get playable reps I will not even give this game the time of day, so if the box theory is true that’s definitely a good thing.

It doesn't disconfirm or confirm anyone.

 

[MainJPW]

2. If we did get Shadow, he would absolutely be somewhat similar to Sonic. There are no two ways about it. We aren't getting Shadow without Spindash at the very least. If we got Tails, Knuckles, or Eggman we know we would have got a completely unique newcomer.

Apologies since I’m a broken record, but Tails and Knuckles could theoretically also retain the Spin Dash or Charge at the very least considering it’s an ability they used in most of their playable appearances coupled with Sonic’s moveset being based heavily on his Fighters moveset where they can also both use it (especially Tails since he utilized Spin ball attacks the most after Sonic).

After all, Knuckles uses Homing Attack as an assist trophy depite only using it in 3 games. If he were playable I figure he’d at least have one Spin Dash based Attack.

 

[Opossum]

I'll take it a step further. I'm so confident that Ken and an Alola Pokémon are the final two base game reveals and that the box theory is true, that if they aren't, I will Take the L in the Take-the-L-est of ways. I'll record myself singing Hallelujah with the lyrics altered to fit the situation and post it here, in the grandest "I was wrong" showing this board has seen since Slick ate chili from a shoe.

 

[Pyra]

If Minecraft or Undertale get playable reps I will not even give this game the time of day, so if the box theory is true that’s definitely a good thing.

That's awfully shallow, but hey, do what you want with your money.

No because they'd get buried alive unders Ls and you'd hear a muffled "I KNEW there was a pattern"

If the box pattern is wrong everyone's gonna be like "well yeah it wasn't guaranteed lol!"
If it's right everyone is gonna be like "well duh of course it happened that way"

The community has already taken the L for this as far as I care haha

 

[Frostwraith]

It has to be 72. Smashdown requires the roster to be divisible by 4.

I've already thought about it but here's something to consider: you don't have the entire roster unlockable.

The roster at a given point of the game's progress could be a number not divisible by 4. Not to mention, it's possible that you're able to play the mode with less than 4 players.

 

[Loz18-Echo]

Does the pamphlet have a very specific, weird pattern that strongly suggests a heavily rumored character is in?

That's the main difference here.

All I'm saying is that people need to stop looking too much into everything related to smash it always happen each time,

 

[Deleted member]

To the people asking why Incineroar would be the last reveal, there is a very, VERY good reason for it. Let's take it step by step for clarity's sake.

1. "Everyone is Here!" was decided from the beginning. From there, it is safe to assume that the fighter numbering was decided very early, especially since the character select screen itself is based on it.

2. Incineroar was officially revealed in 2016. The roster was decided in late 2015. Because of this, like Greninja before him, Incineroar was likely added later on and before that was just a placeholder.

3. Due to being added later on, it makes sense that Incineroar's reveal would be last: he was likely the last fighter decided on, significantly long after the other (potentially non-echo) fighters.

I'm certain the box theory is correct, that the final non-Ken character is Incineroar, and that this is why.

I'm not sure if I can agree with you on why Incineroar would be last.

Sonic and, as you said, Greninja were late additions and they were not the final reveals for Brawl and Smash 3DS & WIi U. Sonic was revealed in October, 2007, before King Dedede and Olimar. Greninja was revealed in April, 2014, and there were still plenty of unique characters left to reveal.

Incineroar could have been confirmed at any point after E3 2018. Why they decided to save him for last is something we can only speculate on.

See, I both very much love Isabelle's inclusion AND the shattering of that argument.
So it's like... extra Christmas for me.

My forecast only at this point includes Skull Kid and Isaac as potentials in the case that Geno isn't in.

I would be 100% cool with Isaac being an AT and Skull Kid being a boss in "Spirits". The game could release how it is and I'd be totally ecstatic.
Geno could be just a trophy in the game, I'm gonna main Inkling and be totally happy haha.

I just can't wait for the game. And you know, I'm excited to see how they handle DLC if they do.

I see it like this, they're either going to go all out on DLC or the base roster is it. I don't see an intermediate situation happening where our DLC is just promotional characters and third-parties; not that they won't be part of it mind you.

Sakurai knows that we're not going to get as many newcomers as we did the previous games due to factors like having a massive roster and also bringing literally every veteran back. To make up for this, he's going to make DLC an even more prominent feature of Ultimate than it was for Smash 4. This in itself sounds weird because with DLC, we are only getting newcomers but we also have to remember that DLC last game was a cramped period due to Nintendo needing a new Smash game ASAP. With Ultimate, we won't have that concern as the Switch's huge success and Nintendo promising to support it for longer than the usual Nintendo console allows for possibly years of Smash updates. I would not be surprised to see at least two years of DLC or a major expansion that you can also buy separately if you haven't got Ultimate yet for whatever reason.

Eight to twelve DLC characters would honestly not surprise me. It will likely be a mix of promotional characters, third-parties, and fan favorites.

Of course we still need to see who gets AT'd first, particularly for popular character. If said highly requested character isn't AT'd, they have a good shot at DLC even if they are essentially "dead" characters. That's because these could be characters Sakurai wanted to add but was unable to fit in the base game and now DLC gives him the chance to do so.

 

[Fatmanonice]

so, Incineroar gets in and is revealed to be the final character... what would be your reaction?

Same as Smash 4, cross my fingers for good DLC. I could see Geno, Isaac, and Banjo missing the base roster but not the game completely. It would be really weird if Shadow was DLC and I could easily see characters like Bandana Dee, Shantae, and Dixie totally missing the boat for one reason or another. Skull Kid might be a boss despite the avalanche of salt that would create. I'm also of the mind that DLC will probably be four characters tops given how all the veterans were already added.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Here's reasoning in that case.

-It's boxart that can be changed
-Sakurai would not let this slip past his radar
-The boxart would be covered up by now just like how Ganon and Lucario got leaked.
-It is boxart

It can be changed, but why waste the effort with all the details if that was going to be the case.
Ganondorf and Luario show stuff slips past the radar
If does not have to be covered up with half the information missing.
It is boxart for a product they plan on selling.

 

[PeridotGX]

We still talking about the Box? Let me restate my thoughts on it, I think we have more than 2, but I do think the Ken thing is a genuine slip-up.

 

[JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL]

It can be changed, but why waste the effort with all the details if that was going to be the case.
Ganondorf and Luario show stuff slips past the radar
If does not have to be covered up with half the information missing.
It is boxart for a product they plan on selling.

You are really trying your hardest to defend the theory, aren't you?

 

[Frostwraith]

Also, where's the bundle image with the characters and stuff?

I need to take a look at it but I'm not finding the image in question.

 

[Opossum]

I'm not sure if I can agree with you on why Incineroar would be last.

Sonic and, as you said, Greninja were late additions and they were not the final reveals for Brawl and Smash 3DS & WIi U. Sonic was revealed in October, 2007, before King Dedede and Olimar. Greninja was revealed in April, 2014, and there were still plenty of unique characters left to reveal.

Incineroar could have been confirmed at any point after E3 2018. Why they decided to save him for last is something we can only speculate on.

I see it like this, they're either going to go all out on DLC or the base roster is it. I don't see an intermediate situation happening where our DLC is just promotional characters and third-parties; not that they won't be part of it mind you.

Sakurai knows that we're not going to get as many newcomers as we did the previous games due to factors like having a massive roster and also bringing literally every veteran back. To make up for this, he's going to make DLC an even more prominent feature of Ultimate than it was for Smash 4. This in itself sounds weird because with DLC, we are only getting newcomers but we also have to remember that DLC last game was a cramped period due to Nintendo needing a new Smash game ASAP. With Ultimate, we won't have that concern as the Switch's huge success and Nintendo promising to support it for longer than the usual Nintendo console allows for possibly years of Smash updates. I would not be surprised to see at least two years of DLC or a major expansion that you can also buy separately if you haven't got Ultimate yet for whatever reason.

Eight to twelve DLC characters would honestly not surprise me. It will likely be a mix of promotional characters, third-parties, and fan favorites.

Of course we still need to see who gets AT'd first, particularly for popular character. If said highly requested character isn't AT'd, they have a good shot at DLC even if they are essentially "dead" characters. That's because these could be characters Sakurai wanted to add but was unable to fit in the base game and now DLC gives him the chance to do so.

I'd argue now would be different because of how important the numbering system is. Sonic and Greninja being added late wouldn't throw off something like the CSS in a totally major way, but now, when character order is incredibly important, it would.

 

[Murlough]

Apologies since I’m a broken record, but Tails and Knuckles could theoretically also retain the Spin Dash or Charge at the very least considering it’s an ability they used in most of their playable appearances coupled with Sonic’s moveset being based heavily on his Fighters moveset where they can also both use it (especially Tails since he utilized Spin ball attacks the most after Sonic).

After all, Knuckles uses Homing Attack as an assist trophy depite only using it in 3 games. If he were playable I figure he’d at least have one Spin Dash based Attack.

I know they could but most people wouldn't expect them to have it. Those two aren't known for Spindashing like Sonic and Shadow are. In theory, yeah Tails could be put in the game with Spindash. But if you or I or several others in the thread made a moveset for Tails, I feel like the majority probably wouldn't give him a Spindash.

On the other hand, if ANYBODY made a moveset for Shadow it would 100% have a Spindash in there. So, what I was saying was, Knuckles and Tails have the potential to be far different from Sonic, whereas Shadow will absolutely borrow from Sonic one way or another.

I'm not saying "Shadow is ECHO or bust" or anything like that.

 

[Nethermoosen]

i'm starting to wonder what my role was in the speculation community is anymore. I started speculation gradually becoming more open about possibilities through several passionately written analyses, hoping that this speculation period would be my time to not make predicting errors like I did with the last game, being optimistic that Sakurai had more in store for newcomers with his growth as a developer, in contrast with the lower count of new fighter pessimism present in many hardcore speculation communities. Now we get to this plausible situation of box-art that kinda flushes the time I spent on speculation down the toilet. I am not really sure where to go from here. It is certainly an interesting time.

I wouldn’t read a lot into it. It’s not disproveable, but if they were going to make a display for Pre-order as accurate as possible and the real bundle is going to have all of the characters on it, then it doesn’t matter how many characters there actually are.
This is what an accurate display of that box would look like without revealing anyone, regardless of how many there actually are.
It does so without adding unnecessary spaces even if characters will eventually be announced to fill them. Because that’s marketing accurately without giving too much away.

The only thing this actually tells us is that there is at least one new echo fighter and it narrows the original fighter down to 8 possible characters.

 

[LetterO]

It can be changed, but why waste the effort with all the details if that was going to be the case.
Ganondorf and Luario show stuff slips past the radar
If does not have to be covered up with half the information missing.
It is boxart for a product they plan on selling.

Because it's a placeholder image?
When it happened twice I think they're going to try to be more careful with this, especially since this would be so blaintantly obvious to notice
Going back to my first point, they can easily change it
Boxart for something that releases in 3 months.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Here's reasoning in that case.

-It's boxart that can be changed
-It is boxart

See these points? They mean nothing when together. The box art is off a special edition of EVERYONE IS HERE and the boxart we saw was with all the characters confirmed so far. People who believe Box Theory are saying it WILL be changed to add the other characters, for the sake od presentation. If the box comes out like that it will look jarring because it has all the characters except a few

It has to be 72. Smashdown requires the roster to be divisible by 4.

Honestly my gripe with the Smashdown theory is... What if it's a group of 7 people playing? Then 72 would leave 2 characters out. I play Smash weekly with 7 people so maybe it's just me but everyone else forgets 7

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Clarification - what does taking the L mean?...Like loser???

I wonder if the box will be the most divisive thing in this speculation period for the game. Especially since it won't be settled for... probably over a month? And I definitely thinks it's more split than the chairs.

 

[Pyra]

I see it like this, they're either going to go all out on DLC or the base roster is it. I don't see an intermediate situation happening where our DLC is just promotional characters and third-parties; not that they won't be part of it mind you.

Sakurai knows that we're not going to get as many newcomers as we did the previous games due to factors like having a massive roster and also bringing literally every veteran back. To make up for this, he's going to make DLC an even more prominent feature of Ultimate than it was for Smash 4. This in itself sounds weird because with DLC, we are only getting newcomers but we also have to remember that DLC last game was a cramped period due to Nintendo needing a new Smash game ASAP. With Ultimate, we won't have that concern as the Switch's huge success and Nintendo promising to support it for longer than the usual Nintendo console allows for possibly years of Smash updates. I would not be surprised to see at least two years of DLC or a major expansion that you can also buy separately if you haven't got Ultimate yet for whatever reason.

Eight to twelve DLC characters would honestly not surprise me. It will likely be a mix of promotional characters, third-parties, and fan favorites.

Of course we still need to see who gets AT'd first, particularly for popular character. If said highly requested character isn't AT'd, they have a good shot at DLC even if they are essentially "dead" characters. That's because these could be characters Sakurai wanted to add but was unable to fit in the base game and now DLC gives him the chance to do so.

DLC is such a touchy subject for me.

I know it's going to happen, but I'd very much prefer not having DLC characters if that means I have to pay to have the complete roster. Though, if paying for online gets me the DLC then **** it lmao

And I'll be paying for the characters anyway when it comes to it, because I want the full roster anyway, so they already have my money regardless. The potential for DLC is incredible.
I only expect 5 more newcomers (if the Box theory isn't true to life) in base game, most of which are echos, but I have big dreams about DLC characters (given that it's gonna happen whether or not I like it).

But dammit, I want unlockable costumes more than DLC characters, hahaha.

 

[Loz18-Echo]

I'll take it a step further. I'm so confident that Ken and an Alola Pokémon are the final two base game reveals and that the box theory is true, that if they aren't, I will Take the L in the Take-the-L-est of ways. I'll record myself singing Hallelujah with the lyrics altered to fit the situation and post it here, in the grandest "I was wrong" showing this board has seen since Slick ate chili from a shoe.

I'll double down with you.

If it is only two left i will do the same

 

[drag0nscythe]

You are really trying your hardest to defend the theory, aren't you?

Cant you tell?

I have been saying around this number for a while. been off by one because I kept forgetting random. But I am standing by it.

I think the CSS will look something like this. Which fits 2 more characters.

N64 on top.
Melee on Row 2.
Brawl on Row 3
Smash4 on Row 4
DLC and Ultimate on Row 5.

For expanded look, all unique newcomers are on the bottom row. I am sure this is what to expect.

Because it's a placeholder image?
When it happened twice I think they're going to try to be more careful with this, especially since this would be so blaintantly obvious to notice
Going back to my first point, they can easily change it
Boxart for something that releases in 3 months.

They are not gods. They make mistakes. The severity of the mistake is what will constitute a removal.

 

[Pakky]

So how hard is Wolf trying to get Isabelle's attention? Only for Mr.Peepers (Duck Hunt) to steal her away because she thinks he's funny.

 

[TaichiYaegashi]

Here's reasoning in that case.

-It's boxart that can be changed
-Sakurai would not let this slip past his radar
-The boxart would be covered up by now just like how Ganon and Lucario got leaked.
-It is boxart

Again, this all falls into the denial if you ask me. Every single thing you listed off. "Sakurai wouldn't do this, Sakurai wouldn't do that" I've heard this probably around a thousand times now, not buying into that. This also ties into your third point of saying what Nintendo/Sakurai would do about the boxart and wanting or having to cover it up.

 

[Nethermoosen]

''Please stop talking about this and only talk about Smash."

-Quotes post about said subject telling me to shut up and accusing me of thinking the world revolves around me like people prior, doesn't see the problem or the irony-

I'm just gonna have to start blocking all of you aren't I? It's really a shame. I'd love to be friends and friendly with everyone, but ya'll are making it really hard. I don't block people out of principal and the only person I did was @Burb briefly, which is odd enough because now he's my sweet baboo.

This is weird cause I’ve been here for a little over a month and I’ve never noticed you in a fight before.

I’ll be your buddy. I’m pretty good at being buddies.

 

[Deleted member]

...As someone earlier in the thread mentioned, the Smashdown theory really doesn't make much sense when you consider the number of people playing won't always be an even number.

Food for thought.

 

[Pyra]

So how hard is Wolf trying to get Isabelle's attention? Only for Mr.Peepers (Duck Hunt) to steal her away because she thinks he's funny.

Isabelle and Mr. Peepers is like a Goofy/Pluto situation...

 

[SquashiniKun]

Oh great, first we speculated about two randomly colored chairs, and now we're speculating about a ****ing box. Is this what Smash speculation has become?

 

[Murlough]

Clarification - what does taking the L mean?...Like loser???

I wonder if the box will be the most divisive thing in this speculation period for the game. Especially since it won't be settled for... probably over a month? And I definitely thinks it's more split than the chairs.

It means taking the loss. Owning up to the fact that you were wrong.

People take the **** said in here too seriously imo. This Boxart argument is the new Shadow discussion.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Question, has anyone gotten an echo right?

Best I got is that Richter one seemed to get Dark Samus but we're not calling that one until Gardevoir or Gothitelle is seen

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I've already thought about it but here's something to consider: you don't have the entire roster unlockable.

The roster at a given point of the game's progress could be a number not divisible by 4. Not to mention, it's possible that you're able to play the mode with less than 4 players.

You can play the mode with less than 4 characters but what happens if you get down to the last 2-3 fighters with 4 people with the whole roster unlocked? Does the game end? Does everyone use the 2 same people? Do 3rd & last place sit out?

See these points? They mean nothing when together. The box art is off a special edition of EVERYONE IS HERE and the boxart we saw was with all the characters confirmed so far. People who believe Box Theory are saying it WILL be changed to add the other characters, for the sake od presentation. If the box comes out like that it will look jarring because it has all the characters except a few

Honestly my gripe with the Smashdown theory is... What if it's a group of 7 people playing? Then 72 would leave 2 characters out. I play Smash weekly with 7 people so maybe it's just me but everyone else forgets 7

The only numbers divisible by 7 is any multiple of 7. The mode might not even be playable with 8 players. 72 is divisible by 2, 3, & 4.