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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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ToddCam

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Actually, if you were a judge, you'd probably end up ruling something like a point of sale from Nintendo for the DLC in the game or something. also, if Nintendo actually showed up to court and didn't just rule themselves as guilty, Nintendo would be the ones causing more disruption

something something legalities don't work the way you think it does something something i went to pre-law for a year and i got a few friends that still yell to me about law school something
Interesting. I'm a total layman, so forgive my ignorance. I know DLC purchased would be a point of sale, but if I say, bought Bayonetta, and learned she was predetermined to be DLC, what could I bring up as my injury to not have it be considered frivolous? I guess if you could say you purchased Bayonetta for the expressed reason that she won the ballot? I guess that would be the most reasonable thing I could think of. I think it would pretty hard to prove deception on Nintendo's part, though. We have a bunch of straw polls as our "evidence" that she wasn't the ballot winner, and of course "realizable" is a huge caveat.
 

cmbsfm

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The difference is that Nintendo has built up years (maybe even a generation) of good will, unlike Ubisoft and EA.
Doesn’t mean you should disregard any scummy practices they do. Hold everyone to the same standard.
 

Thirdkoopa

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What do you expect? Waluigi being a Luigi's echo fighter?
Otherwise, explain the moveset.
all i'm saying is daisy isn't as popular as waluigi but still noticeable enough and daisy is easier to develop by far

Interesting. I'm a total layman, so forgive my ignorance. I know DLC purchased would be a point of sale, but if I say, bought Bayonetta, and learned she was predetermined to be DLC, what could I bring up as my injury to not have it be considered frivolous? I guess if you could say you purchased Bayonetta for the expressed reason that she won the ballot? I guess that would be the most reasonable thing I could think of. I think it would pretty hard to prove deception on Nintendo's part, though. We have a bunch of straw polls as our "evidence" that she wasn't the ballot winner, and of course "realizable" is a huge caveat.
well, for starters, it depends on how big of a lawsuit we're talking. (Are we talking class action? Just a few users? Does Nintendo actually acknowledge it?) to add on, people would be attacking nintendo's wording instead of whether they bought the character or not.
 

Imadethistoseealeak

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Honestly the whole Ballot controversy isn't really a big deal if they chose to use the votes for Ultimate. And we'll never know. Even if Sakurai comes out and says yup Ridley, Inkling and Daisy were the top three ballot picks, how would we know that's even true? Seriously no reason in worrying/getting upset over it (really dreading YouTubers using this as a way to get views, I can already see the video titles now).

BUT it is fun to speculate that the Ballot was used for at least some (if not most) of the Ultimate newcomer picks.

Are we really assuming what newcomers are going to be?
You do not know what Sakurai has planned. Like no character we all mentioned before is guaranteed.

You never know, we may get a newcomer that surprises everyone even.
I mean isn't that what speculation is? Are you saying we shouldn't speculate or am I missing something?

Basically we never have much to go off but fake rules we make up so it's fun to try to base it off something else.
 
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CaptainAmerica

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Can we stop talking about bringing legal action about a suggestion box? Seriouly, that makes everyone sound obnoxiously petty.

I’m sure ‘Realizable’ ended up meaning something close to ‘character who fits Bayo’s proportions and moves’ since she was already half made by then, but I’m not even mad since the next Smash got announced incredibly sooner than expected, and this one is bringing back the vets I missed from Sm4sh.
 

Thirdkoopa

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Can we stop talking about bringing legal action about a suggestion box? Seriouly, that makes everyone sound obnoxiously petty.

I’m sure ‘Realizable’ ended up meaning something close to ‘character who fits Bayo’s proportions and moves’ since she was already half made by then, but I’m not even mad since the next Smash got announced incredibly sooner than expected, and this one is bringing back the vets I missed from Sm4sh.
people are discussing if it's possible. chill. I'm just trying to shed some light on how legalities work.

CAL's (Class Action Lawsuits) are big and annoying to do so nobody is gonna actually do it. Source is, I knew a CAL where I could have obtained way more out of it (along with everyone else involved) and we probably could have won - we still didn't go through with it.
 

ToddCam

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well, for starters, it depends on how big of a lawsuit we're talking. (Are we talking class action? Just a few users? Does Nintendo actually acknowledge it?) to add on, people would be attacking nintendo's wording instead of whether they bought the character or not.
If they didn't purchase Bayonetta, wouldn't the suit be tossed out for lack of standing?
 

DarkFalcon

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I like Daisy more than Waluigi. She has memes like Waluigi but she isn't considered a joke character like him.
 

Impa4Smash

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It'll all be worth it when we can play as Daisy, KO someone, then taunt "Hi! I'm Daisy!" at them.
 

Thirdkoopa

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If they didn't purchase Bayonetta, wouldn't the suit be tossed out for lack of standing?
Not necessarily, but it also depends on what type of suit. If it's a CAL, probably not, but they'd probably not receive whatever reward Nintendo would compensate (ie refunding everyone who bought Bayo and making her free or something). If it's not CAL, they wouldn't enter anyways probably because thehy wouldn't have as strong of a case
 

Arcadenik

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Sorry, I meant what series deserves a newcomer the most.
Donkey Kong deserves TWO newcomers.

King K. Rool AND Dixie Kong

Zelda also deserves TWO newcomers.

Impa (the one from Skyward Sword) AND Ganon (the one from ALTTP) but I am fine with Tingle, Toon Zelda, Tetra, Skull Kid, or Midna & Wolf Link.

Waluigi support has been steadily rising with each game and he was very popular in polls early this year. I think this sort of outcry is too massive for a flavor of the week. He's no Zoroark, that's for sure.
Meanwhile Meowth support has been steadily dying with each game. :urg:

Seriously, Ridley and Daisy in Smash Bros Ultimate.
Do you think that Sakurai is listening the fanbase?
Yes, he listens to the fanbase. We finally got Ridley and Daisy. We finally got the ability to turn off stage hazards. We finally got Saffron City back. We finally got zero cuts from the roster (although it's probably only for Smash Ultimate so we better prepare for cuts in Smash 6).
 

Thirdkoopa

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Also, since I know people are going to want to bring this up further and I don't want to go into too much detail (we were gonna sue the college I graduated from): feel free to HMU privately about legality questions. Either way, there is a case to be made, and you could do it, but quite frankly, you're not going to see much out of it. The cons outweigh the pros in this case, imho.

edit: the absolute best you could hope for is Nintendo publishing the results and even then, I wouldn't doubt the pettiness of any multi-billion dollar company
 
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ToddCam

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Can we stop talking about bringing legal action about a suggestion box? Seriouly, that makes everyone sound obnoxiously petty.

I’m sure ‘Realizable’ ended up meaning something close to ‘character who fits Bayo’s proportions and moves’ since she was already half made by then, but I’m not even mad since the next Smash got announced incredibly sooner than expected, and this one is bringing back the vets I missed from Sm4sh.
I'm discussing this as a legal question. It's intriguing. If you look at a previous post of mine, I find the whining over this situation, that thankfully never went anywhere, to be hypocritical at best (with all the rampant "cheating" that took place among the fandom).
 

KMDP

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Doesn’t mean you should disregard any scummy practices they do. Hold everyone to the same standard.
What I mean is that people are willing to forgive, just this once, for the infraction; because Nintendo has been relatively 'well behaved' on the front of DLC and online services.

Were they to do it repeatedly, people would start getting really angry (something, something microtransactions, something something loot boxes).
 
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Blargg888

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Wouldn't it be cool if they added a Target Smash functionality to the stage builder?

People could make their own Target Smash stages and stuff. I doubt that this would ever happen. But the idea of it is cool.
As a K. Rool fan, I’d rather they made him with a proper budget than half-arse him in DLC and he’s stuck with a mediocre moveset.
Why does being DLC mean he'd have a bad moveset?
Last time I checked, both Ryu and Bayonetta have movesets and mechanics that closely tie back to their games of origin, and Corrin's moveset is unique and interesting as a whole, with a unique mechanic and everything.

And all that isn't even mentioning that of our 7 DLC characters, 5 of them ended up being high tiered in competitive play, so I really don't see what you're getting at here. Being DLC is not an indicator of poor quality, nor a lack of dedication to accurately depicting and presenting a character.
 

Impa4Smash

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Sorry, I meant what series deserves a newcomer the most.
I think Zelda, DK, and Kirby are the most deserving of 2 newcomers at this point, since neither have gotten any since Brawl, and they're all fairly big.

I'd add Impa and Skull Kid for Zelda. Both are recurring characters.
Dixie and K Rool for DK (the obvious choices) since they're both overdue.
And for Kirby, Bandanna Dee and Marx (one has surged in popularity, the other is iconic, went away for a bit, but is starting to make a comeback)
 
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StormC

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Wouldn't it be cool if they added a Target Smash functionality to the stage builder?

People could make their own Target Smash stages and stuff. I doubt that this would ever happen. But the idea of it is cool.

Why does being DLC mean he'd have a bad moveset?
Last time I checked, both Ryu and Bayonetta have movesets and mechanics that closely tie back to their games of origin, and Corrin's moveset is unique and interesting as a whole, with a unique mechanic and everything.

And all that isn't even mentioning that of our 7 DLC characters, 5 of them ended up being high tiered in competitive play, so I really don't see what you're getting at here. Being DLC is not an indicator of poor quality, nor a lack of dedication to accurately depicting and presenting a character.
Bayonetta reused assets from her games and Ryu’s moveset is relatively easy to design in terms of animation and rendering. K. Rool would have to be built from the ground up with all of his wacky gadgets and moves. It’s possible they couldn’t do him justice on a DLC team.
 

lltacx

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So you know how people never stop wanting things, characters in this case. Ridley got in, K.Rool is a whole hype rn so let’s say he gets in. Who is gonna be the next target? Will it be Waluigi or is there someone people want more than him (i still just see Waluigi as a Meme as i never really played the spinoff games so i myself don’t care about him)
 
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Honestly, with how time consuming and difficult game development is, there is no way on earth Bayo was entirely influenced from the ballot. That would mean that she only had like 3 or so months of dev time put in to her, and that just doesn't sound right with what we've heard in interviews about how hard creating fighters for this game is. I'm sure she was already chosen as soon as DLC work began, and with no numbers given specifically, it is very easy to simply say "Lots of folks in this region wanted her!" and then leave it at that.

There is no doubt in my mind that they knew who they were going with ahead of time. I'm sure she did place well on the ballot (she does have a pretty sizable fandom), but "the most realizable"? I still have my doubts about that one. But eh, that's waaaay in the past now, and it's honestly nothing to get worked up over. I'm sure the ballot did influence Ultimate, Sakurai said himself that Ridley was chosen because of fan demand in the West. How much will it influence? We're just gonna have to wait and see. December is thankfully not that far away, so we don't have to wait too long. :)
 

StormC

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So you know how people never stop wanting things, characters in this case. Ridley got in, K.Rool is a whole hype rn so let’s say he gets in. Who is gonna be the next target? Will it be Waluigi or is there someone people want more than him (i still just see Waluigi as a Meme as i never really played the spinoff games so i myself don’t care about him)
Banjo probably. Waluigi, Isaac. Maybe even Sora.
 

Omega Tyrant

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Missed out on the whole "Ballot is fake" discussion a while ago, and my first thought is...

"So what?"

Bayonetta and Cloud began development before the ballot actually ended. Yeah, no duh. Did anyone actually believe that development on a new character would only begin once the ballot would've closed? We wouldn't have gotten a new character until late 2016 if that were the case. For being a fan voted poll the period in which it was open was extremely long and extremely sketch - not just because it's not optimal for development but because a large majority of traffic that this kind of poll would've gained would only be the most evident within the first few days of being active. Most people who voted for the character they wanted would have only done so in the first few days, unless you're one of those character loyalists who came back every day to vote for your favorite character, which isn't reliable as far as results go. There was always going to be an invisible cutoff period and it was always going to be incredibly early. Beyond that, having it close in late October feels especially more telling now given that the project outline for the next entry would've been proposed around this particular period.

On top of that there's no reason to believe that there was an ulterior motive in bootstrapping Bayonetta of all characters into Smash when the original game was only a modest success and the sequel was a financial dud for Nintendo months before the ballot was even in consideration. Who would realistically believe that this kind of ballot existed to push Bayonetta of all characters?

This is why I never believed for a second that Sakurai and Nintendo would come straight out and say that a character inclusion was ultimately dictated by the ballot. If the idea was to obfuscate a result it would've been far more believable to make the claim that Cloud was the ballot winner, and in fact, I'm convinced that his inclusion was pretty much foresight on their part. They mentioned that they'd been receiving plenty of requests for Final Fantasy characters (and bear in mind the ballot also asked you to list the series/game they're from), but that Cloud edged them all out. Why would they position Bayonetta as a "ballot winner", especially under such specific results, but not Cloud, who would ideally have been way more popular? And yet that's what they did - not only saying outright that she was the overall top pick, but that she even topped the charts in very specific regions.

Even setting aside all of this is the simple fact that being #1 on the ballot doesn't guarantee an inclusion. This is where that *realizable characters anecdote comes into play. I see no reason to believe that Bayonetta didn't have a significant ballot presence, and trying to argue otherwise to me seems like a whole bunch of looking for controversy, no matter how early she was planned. If the parameter data was patched into Smash that early but literally nothing else, it's equally fair to assume that they were hedging their bets based on the early ballot feedback because it's likely they wouldn't even have successfully negotiated the characters to include them. Between having to negotiate characters and actually make them, they can't just dawdle on it. Third party characters in particular take a long time to figure out.
It wasn't just that Bayo's data existed before the ballot finished, it existed in an update that released only two weeks after the Ballot launched, meaning Bayonetta (and Cloud) were already planned and being actively developed before the Ballot even launched. As for why Bayo would get chosen without the Ballot results, as Vaanrose pointed out before, Nintendo has a vested interest in the Bayonetta series being a success, considering how they got an exclusive license to her games and bankrolled her sequel being made; Bayonetta being in Smash boosts interests and sales in her series, thus Nintendo's bottom line benefits and thus they would want her in Smash (while she provides plenty enough material for Sakurai to work with). As for why not going with Cloud as the claimed "ballot winner", probably because Cloud finished sooner and thus could be released earlier, while Cloud being the "ballot winner" also isn't any more believable than Bayo being it, considering how he was treated as a impossible joke suggestion by the majority (e.g. "Cloud never been on Nintendo before no history he can't ever be in Smash!"), while Final Fantasy votes were also very scattered and no single FF character had a centralized push for them.

Ehhh, I do think characters like Creninja and Corrin were time and place.

We know for Greninja this was trhe

ehh i’m not convinced it was a scam or something but I can see them using it to help them limit down choices that had preplanned.
But there weren't any extra slots added, just Bayo's, Cloud's, and Corrin's. Additionally they couldn't just get the licensing to third party characters and then midway through decide they don't want to use them anymore if the character didn't do well on the Ballot.
 
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Imadethistoseealeak

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people are discussing if it's possible. chill. I'm just trying to shed some light on how legalities work.
Also, since I know people are going to want to bring this up further and I don't want to go into too much detail (we were gonna sue the college I graduated from): feel free to HMU privately about legality questions. Either way, there is a case to be made, and you could do it, but quite frankly, you're not going to see much out of it. The cons outweigh the pros in this case, imho.
"Just discussing the possibility" lol.

Has this really gained any attention outside of here? I saw a post on Gamespot and Reddit but there wasn't much discussion and it more or less died out. I'd really rather not this be the thing people talk about and remember about Smash Ultimate. Like the best Smash celebration and it's remembered for prior false marketing.
Or if you'd rather attach that to Smash 4 I'd also rather not, because I genuinely liked Smash 4.
 

Idon

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Beside MM and Hyrule Warriors, what games have Skull kid appeared in?
OoT and TP

Though in OoT, that was before he was the puppet of Majora and the TP Skull Kid seems to be unrelated to the OoT/MM Skull Kid
 

Impa4Smash

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OoT and TP

Though in OoT, that was before he was the puppet of Majora and the TP Skull Kid seems to be unrelated to the OoT/MM Skull Kid
True, but all of the Zelda characters are different from game to game, with the exception of Link and Skull Kid (minus the mask) in OoT and MM.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Oh but they didn't lie, Bayonetta was only number one among "realizable" characters, if you never define what realizable means, then no matter what it's not lying because you can't prove it's lying. See?



Although, this actually reminds me of something I wanted to ask everyone, so I was looking up stuff on consumer laws in the USA after thinking about what @SmashChu said yesterday and I found this https://consumer.laws.com/deceptive-advertising/deceptive-advertising-definition
"Undefined terms is also considered a violation under consumer law. This will occur when manufacturers are very vague in their terms. They may be using terms that are not legally accepted and basically have little meaning."

Would "realizable" fit the bill here? Don't worry I'm not thinking of suing lol, I'm just wondering if this is technically illegal or what-not, I'm curious.
Again, Smashchu's as wise as a half-eaten cornflake, he says the dumbest **** like "Mario Odyssey will fail to sell as well as BotW", "People wanted Snake to be cut" and more things though those are off topic and his avatar is of a conspiracy theorist who believes Wonder Woman's trying to brainwash society into thinking men are expendable and that Star Wars' iconic Death Star is meant to be symbolic for the welfare state, I don't get why people put any faith in him when it comes to facts
 

Thirdkoopa

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"Just discussing the possibility" lol.

Has this really gained any attention outside of here? I saw a post on Gamespot and Reddit but there wasn't much discussion and it more or less died out. I'd really rather not this be the thing people talk about and remember about Smash Ultimate. Like the best Smash celebration and it's remembered for prior false marketing.
Or if you'd rather attach that to Smash 4 I'd also rather not, because I genuinely liked Smash 4.
I mean, there's no way anyone is actually going to do anything with the possibility. I just threw ToddCam ToddCam a private message on how not worth it it is.

smash fans need to be more patient lol. LOOK AT RIDLEY FANS, THEY WAITED ALMOST 20 YEARS*

* = (and got like 20 of them banned in the process lololol)
 

Omega Tyrant

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Yeah yeah, but...

Since when Daisy use toads?
She won't be suitable as a Peach clone.
Clones aren't decided by what is "most suitable", they're decided by "what works best mechanically with no technical issues" (e.g. characters with a near-identical body build whose model can use their skeleton and replicate their moves without any glitches and other technical issues occurring). Daisy can use all of Peach's moves without any such issues and share identical hurtboxes/hitboxes, thus she is made a Peach Echo regardless of canonical sense (and why Ganondorf was made a Falcon clone in Melee and so on).
 
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