Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Two more "leaks"

I've made an edit to my criteria:
I'm removing the criteria of "must present a full roster and pass it off as fact." Some rosters seem like wishlists and it's impossible to discern without additional information. Leaks that have attempted to do this will be grandfathered in and counted. The other criteria still stand.

Anyways,

Spoiler: "Leak"

Spoiler: "Leak" 2

Regular stuff to be honest.

Incineroar.....as an echo......?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

We already knew Knuckles was an Assist Trophy, right? (The facebook page just made a post about it)

He showed up among the various Treehouse videos using the demo. First time he was actually confirmed one. We had a vague idea that he could be an NPC via Sonic's fighter video, but it's not like it told us in any way what his role was due to the lack of any context.

Treehouse has disconfirmed a crapload of characters already(Krystal, Knuckle Joe, etc.)

 

[vaanrose]

I think people like the idea of echo fighters but if implemented without discrimination would object to them harshly. Imagine if characters like Ridley, K.K Rool or Isaac was just made as echo fighters (quick development time); people would be complaining tooth and nail about why their character is an exact replica of said character. Impa, Shadow, Chrom, or whatever shouldn't just be delegated to a mere echo because the fans of theirs also want them to feel unique. Considering that Lucina / Dark Pit are still clones and Sakurai didn't give more time to flash them out AND the fact Ganondorf is just now getting sword smashes (some of which are mere imitations of other swordies mind you AND people were so happy when they saw it during live reactions) tells me I would not want my fighter to be an echo if I ever wanted them to be unique.

People apparently have forgotten how people complained about why Ganondorf was pretty much a Falcon clone for so long and had nothing from his games (not to mention that Ganondorf was bottom tier in Brawl and Smash 4). It's not actually good (balance wise) giving an exact move-set of a fighter and changing some attributes as you will either make them clearly inferior to the original or straight up better ex. Pit arrows and Forward-Tilt and I believe rapid jab is straight up better than Dark Pit's and the only thing Dark Pit has is a horizontal Side-B that isn't straight up better than Pit's (Pit does not rely on stage position while Dark Pit does, but Dark Pit can kill earlier depending on stage position). Doctor Mario although not 1:1 replica but is similar enough is MUCH worse than Mario having literally 0 representation in tournaments. You actually feel the difference in viability when you play Mario then Dr. Mario against a competent person.

So to me who likes the competitive side of Smash is not accepting of clones but merely tolerate them. Casuals of course do not have to care about this because their casual (this is their advantage to be quite honest); this is true to many games where casuals do not notice the nuances of things of game design (unlike hardcore gamers); this is fine of course but I wanted to mention this to not alienate casuals. I think people will be happy and disappointed if their wanted newcomer is an echo because it just destroys all the move-set creation / potential ideas they may have etc.

I am in the lets have alternate costumes camp etc. I am very Pro-DLC Skins.

Clones are a staple of the genre. Plenty of fighting games with far less mainstream appeal still boost their rosters with clones.

I actually find alternate costumes less competitive friendly. Nothing grinds my gear more than alt costumes that don't match the visual hit- and hurtboxes of the character.

 

[KMDP]

I think people like the idea of echo fighters but if implemented without discrimination would object to them harshly. Imagine if characters like Ridley, K.K Rool or Isaac was just made as echo fighters (quick development time); people would be complaining tooth and nail about why their character is an exact replica of said character. Impa, Shadow, Chrom, or whatever shouldn't just be delegated to a mere echo because the fans of theirs also want them to feel unique. Considering that Lucina / Dark Pit are still clones and Sakurai didn't give more time to flash them out AND the fact Ganondorf is just now getting sword smashes (some of which are mere imitations of other swordies mind you AND people were so happy when they saw it during live reactions) tells me I would not want my fighter to be an echo if I ever wanted them to be unique.

People apparently have forgotten how people complained about why Ganondorf was pretty much a Falcon clone for so long and had nothing from his games (not to mention that Ganondorf was bottom tier in Brawl and Smash 4). It's not actually good (balance wise) giving an exact move-set of a fighter and changing some attributes as you will either make them clearly inferior to the original or straight up better ex. Pit arrows and Forward-Tilt and I believe rapid jab is straight up better than Dark Pit's and the only thing Dark Pit has is a horizontal Side-B that isn't straight up better than Pit's (Pit does not rely on stage position while Dark Pit does, but Dark Pit can kill earlier depending on stage position). Doctor Mario although not 1:1 replica but is similar enough is MUCH worse than Mario having literally 0 representation in tournaments. You actually feel the difference in viability when you play Mario then Dr. Mario against a competent person.

So to me who likes the competitive side of Smash is not accepting of clones but merely tolerate them. Casuals of course do not have to care about this because their casual (this is their advantage to be quite honest); this is true to many games where casuals do not notice the nuances of things of game design (unlike hardcore gamers); this is fine of course but I wanted to mention this to not alienate casuals. I think people will be happy and disappointed if their wanted newcomer is an echo because it just destroys all the move-set creation / potential ideas they may have etc.

I am in the lets have alternate costumes camp etc. I am very Pro-DLC Skins.

I am one of those guys that is of the opinion that Isabelle and the Octolings are more likely to be, and may work better as, Alt costumes over Echoes. Yes, the Octolings were popular, but they've only just become playable in the Octo Expansion relatively recently (factoring in Dev Time).

Like BOTW Zelda, Isabelle is a non-combatant, and don't say "well, neither is Villager", Villager is the player character, you can read whatever you want into their actions (not to mention they actively use an axe and slingshot).

 

[Zeox]

Incineroar.....as an echo......?

Cleary an Echo of Mr. Game and Watch

 

[Freduardo]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

Mike Jones. Star Tropics for life.

Ah, but a new name for clones is cool.

Plus I think 96% of Daisy fans jumped really high in joy and did not care one bit.

Apologies for the short response Cosmic!

Pretty much, plus people saying there’s a clear difference between echoes and clones because of Doc are stretching the truth.

Doc to Mario you have

1) Different weight and speed
2) entirely different B down
3) Slightly different neutral B
4) slightly different final smash.

With Dark Pit you have

1) Slightly different neutral B
2) Slightly different forward B
3) Entirely different final smash

With Lucina you have

1) Slightly different size
2) Different playstyle due to unique character trait. (Sweet spot of the blade)

Echoes seem mostly just locked in the fact that they’ll match weight and speed and probably only change B moves, but it seems like they can have different B moves.

Who could Incineroar Echo?

Bowser and Captain Falcon...

And Pokémon trainer. He just seems like a bipedal pokemon who stays in the background as he commands squirtle, ivysaur, and Charizard

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Nah, this interpretation of Sakurai is quite flawed. Just consider the fact that he was thinking of including Heihachi, who has never been the protagonist of Tekken. Before Tekken 7 he was lucky to even make the box cover.

The fact that basically every franchise in Smash has begun with its protagonist is because in almost every case, the protagonist is the most important/most popular character. Ryu is actually an anomaly in the fighting game world, usually no one cares at all about the actual protagonist, because they're by design generally one of the more boring characters on the roster. I couldn't even tell you who the actual protagonist of Soul Calibur even is, but I know Nightmare. Everybody knows Nightmare.

Technically, Heihachi has become the de facto protagonist of Tekken due to unusual circumstances.

Spoiler

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I hope Sakurai looks more into the Mario spin-offs for music and stages

Mario spinoffs outside of Mario Kart getting more exposure...sounds cool

With Dark Pit you have

1) Slightly different neutral B
2) Slightly different forward B
3) Entirely different final smash

Don’t forget his slightly different side tilt

 

[Chandeelure]

"Waddle Dee with bandana will be shown in August. Incineroar echo will also be shown".

It's obvious Incineroar is a Bandana Dee echo.

Also, WTF is a Kefka.

 

[Freduardo]

Technically, Heihachi has become the de facto protagonist of Tekken due to unusual circumstances.

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Spoiler

That's right, I forgot about that. Namco sure loves doing this kind of thing.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Clones are a staple of the genre. Plenty of fighting games with far less mainstream appeal still boost their rosters with clones.

I actually find alternate costumes less competitive friendly. Nothing grinds my gear more than alt costumes that don't match the visual hit- and hurtboxes of the character.

Just because it's mainstream doesn't actually indicates it's good design ( People just accepts it as standard, but what is standard changes with innovation and time). Reread my point about Pit / Dark Pit and Doctor Mario as to why it's bad competitively.

Also the visual and hurtboxes to characters doesn't hold up because there is already visual hit and hurtboxes of the character that already doesn't match what is actually going on for most if not all characters. Come on now... you should know this already. (Disjoints etc.). If play competitively; you will learn the hit boxes / hurt boxes of your characters regardless. Your also implying that alt-costumes WILL change the visual hit and hurtboxes and there are mods already on Smash 4 with a bunch of custom skins and custom moves of Lucina, Ganondorf and other clone like characters.

 

[KMDP]

Also, WTF is a Kefka.

Kefka is the main villain of Final Fantasy VI, which just highlights the fakeness of the leak, really.

The Smash Website uses Final Fantasy VII's logo for Cloud when organizing by series, which means they'd pick Sephiroth over Kefka for a Final Fantasy villain. Shows the leakers FF6 bias.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Anyone have some thoughts on what Young Link's Final Smash could be? He's the only returning veteran who hasn't been seen with his Final Smash yet. I have a feeling it'll end up being Triforce Slash, but I'd really like for it to be something else.

Maybe if Skull Kid doesn't get in, Sakurai will give us a special Majora's Mask themed Final Smash where Skull Kid summons the moon to crash down on the stage.

The best option is a Final Smash inspired by this comic:

 

[SlickWylde]

Here's a new game (since you guys keep posting games)

Pick new clone or echo characters for the following characters:

Wario

Mr Game and Watch

King Dedede

 

[EchoAegis]

Here's a new game (since you guys keep posting games)

Pick new clone or echo characters for the following characters:

Wario

Mr Game and Watch

King Dedede

Wario: N/A

Mr Game and Watch: Incineroar

King Dedede: N/A

 

[Zeox]

Also, WTF is a Kefka.

This dude:

Basically, imagine the joker from batman, but with magic.

 

[L9999]

With Lucina you have

1) Slightly different size
2) Different playstyle due to unique character trait. (Sweet spot of the blade)

Marth and Lucina play the exact same.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

To those who have lost hope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B__1_pL4ec
All joking aside, this guy has some very good points on why waluigi might be coming.

 

[Murlough]

I think people like the idea of echo fighters but if implemented without discrimination would object to them harshly. Imagine if characters like Ridley, K.K Rool or Isaac was just made as echo fighters (quick development time); people would be complaining tooth and nail about why their character is an exact replica of said character. Impa, Shadow, Chrom, or whatever shouldn't just be delegated to a mere echo because the fans of theirs also want them to feel unique. Considering that Lucina / Dark Pit are still clones and Sakurai didn't give more time to flash them out AND the fact Ganondorf is just now getting sword smashes (some of which are mere imitations of other swordies mind you AND people were so happy when they saw it during live reactions) tells me I would not want my fighter to be an echo if I ever wanted them to be unique.

People apparently have forgotten how people complained about why Ganondorf was pretty much a Falcon clone for so long and had nothing from his games (not to mention that Ganondorf was bottom tier in Brawl and Smash 4). It's not actually good (balance wise) giving an exact move-set of a fighter and changing some attributes as you will either make them clearly inferior to the original or straight up better ex. Pit arrows, Forward-Tilt and I believe rapid jab is straight up better than Dark Pit's and the only thing Dark Pit has is a horizontal Side-B that isn't straight up better than Pit's (Pit does not rely on stage position while Dark Pit does, but Dark Pit can kill earlier depending on stage position). Doctor Mario although not 1:1 replica but is similar enough is MUCH worse than Mario having literally 0 representation in tournaments. You actually feel the difference in viability when you play Mario then Dr. Mario against a competent person.

So to someone who likes the competitive side of Smash; I am not accepting of clones but merely tolerate them. Casuals of course do not have to care about this because their casual (this is their advantage to be quite honest); this is true to many games where casuals do not notice the nuances of things of game design (unlike hardcore gamers); this is fine of course but I wanted to mention this to not alienate casuals. I think people will be happy and disappointed if their wanted newcomer is an echo because it just destroys all the move-set creation / potential ideas they may have etc.

I am in the lets have alternate costumes camp etc. I am very Pro-DLC Skins. Basically people are okay with Echo Characters as long as it's not their character. (Proof? K.K Rool thread where the idea of him being an echo was rejected quickly.)

I'm with youcompletely on this. I don't hate clones but i'm not sitting on my bed drooling over the sheer number Sakurai could add, either. Especially, when its a character I'm fond of and know well. Dixie echo? Sure idc. Dark Samus echo? Sure why not. Mimikyu as a Pikachu echo? ....... *proceeds to screech venomously for an hour*

Clones as a concept are fine. Its implementation that gets me. Sakurai has done well with clones so far. But, if he makes 7 echos this game and we only have Ridley as a true newcomer, thats not "free dessert" it would more giving us like 3 baskets of rolls to make up for the fact that our main course was burnt horribly.

The one sentence you said "Basically people are okay with Echo Characters as long as it's not their character." is probably the truest thing I've read on here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To those who have lost hope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B__1_pL4ec
All joking aside, this guy has some very good points on why waluigi might be coming.

No he didn't.

All points that Waluigi might be coming blatantly disregard his official disconfirmation.

There are no good points on why Waluigi will be coming.

 

[TumblrFamous]

No he didn't.

All points that Waluigi might be coming blatantly disregard his official disconfirmation.

There are no good points on why Waluigi will be coming.

B-but, you can never predict Sakurai!!!

 

[TonyMyOnly]

I will buy 10 copies of the game if they have a Melee style opening an have the announcer yell "Super Smash Brothers: ULTIMAAATE"

 

[DJ3DS]

To those who have lost hope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B__1_pL4ec
All joking aside, this guy has some very good points on why waluigi might be coming.

As someone who saw people do this with Ridley last game, and then proceeded to do it himself when K Rool became a Mii costume...

...it's over. Waluigi is an Assist Trophy. I understand people love the character but anyone who takes any of these videos seriously is only going to disappoint themselves.

 

[N3ON]

Echoes in a nutshell.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Ivy in SMASH?

Spoiler: A bit revealing

Ill main her. She is my main when i do play Soul Calibur. would be nice if she ever joined smash. I hope one of her grabs is the one where she has them kneeling on all fours and then she puts her high heel on their back. While telling them to "Dance" Strangle!![/spoiler]

"A bit" revealing

Here's a new game (since you guys keep posting games)

Pick new clone or echo characters for the following characters:

Wario

Mr Game and Watch

King Dedede

Wario - Wario Man
Mr. Game & Watch - Ms. Game & Watch
Kind Dedede - That Hammer Monkey from Kirby

Yea not everyone should have an echo XD

 

[Zeox]

Echoes in a nutshell.

This is how I feel when people ask for Ninten as an Echo of Ness... it looks like him, it will have the same abilities and moveset, it would be exactly the same... except the cap is looking at the opposite side.

 

[Cosmic77]

2014: "The shadow doesn't disconfirm him. Sakurai could be teasing Ridley as a playable character."
2015: "I laugh whenever I see someone say the Mii costume disconfirms K. Rool."
2018: "Look at the way Waluigi comes out. That doesn't look like a normal Assist Trophy."

The Smash community has never learned the phrase, "Learn from your mistakes and move on."

 

[KMDP]

The one sentence you said "Basically people are okay with Echo Characters as long as it's not their character." is probably the truest thing I've read on here.

Any time I see someone say "Shadow can just be an echo", I start getting shifty.
Any time I see someone suggest Dixie as an echo, I think "ugh, seriously, this again?".

 

[Billybae10K]

Here's a new game (since you guys keep posting games)

Pick new clone or echo characters for the following characters:

Wario

Mr Game and Watch

King Dedede

Wario - Adam Sandler (They both enjoy fart jokes)
Mr Game and Watch - Paper Mario (The only primarily 2D character I could think of)
King Dedede - King K Rool (If only to see the absolute hatred the fandom would spew)

Only Game and Watch is a serious answer, the other two I got no actual clue. So in other words, they don't need echoes.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

No he didn't.

All points that Waluigi might be coming blatantly disregard his official disconfirmation.

There are no good points on why Waluigi will be coming.

At this point, people should really just accept that Waluigi is an Assist Trophy again.

 

[Lyndis_]

I don't see how the Mii costume disconfirmed K. Rool or should have been seen as disconfirmation. DLC in Sm4sh was really new ground and nothing implied K. Rool couldn't happen because he was a Mii costume. Meta Knight was revealed as a Mii costume before he was revealed for the game.

 

[KingBroly]

Incineroar would be an Echo of Ganondorf, but using Fire instead of Darkness

Impa would also be an Echo of Ganondorf, except faster, weaker and use Light instead of Darkness

And we can't forget the Octoling, who are an obvious Echo of Yoshi.

 

[Troykv]

Kind Dedede - That Hammer Monkey from Kirby

His name is Bonkers.

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't see how the Mii costume disconfirmed K. Rool or should have been seen as disconfirmation. DLC in Sm4sh was really new ground and nothing implied K. Rool couldn't happen because he was a Mii costume. Meta Knight was revealed as a Mii costume before he was revealed for the game.

The same reason why we probably shouldn't have gotten our hopes up for Inklings. If Sakurai added any character as a Mii costume during DLC, then that was probably his polite was of saying, "Not this time, but here's a little compensation."

 

[PLATINUM7]

Mike Jones. Star Tropics for life.


Pretty much, plus people saying there’s a clear difference between echoes and clones because of Doc are stretching the truth.

Doc to Mario you have

1) Different weight and speed
2) entirely different B down
3) Slightly different neutral B
4) slightly different final smash.

With Dark Pit you have

1) Slightly different neutral B
2) Slightly different forward B
3) Entirely different final smash

With Lucina you have

1) Slightly different size
2) Different playstyle due to unique character trait. (Sweet spot of the blade)

Echoes seem mostly just locked in the fact that they’ll match weight and speed and probably only change B moves, but it seems like they can have different B moves.



Bowser and Captain Falcon...

And Pokémon trainer. He just seems like a bipedal pokemon who stays in the background as he commands squirtle, ivysaur, and Charizard

Doc and Mario also have completely different dairs.

 

[Troykv]

Incineroar would be an Echo of Ganondorf, but using Fire instead of Darkness

Impa would also be an Echo of Ganondorf, except faster, weaker and use Light instead of Darkness

And we can't forget the Octoling, who are an obvious Echo of Yoshi.

You post made me imagine Micaiah being a Echo of Zelda; but with the Down B having the Black Knight's Armor xD

That would be fun.

 

[Zeox]

2014: "The shadow doesn't disconfirm him. Sakurai could be teasing Ridley as a playable character."
2015: "I laugh whenever I see someone say the Mii costume disconfirms K. Rool."
2018: "Look at the way Waluigi comes out. That doesn't look like a normal Assist Trophy."

The Smash community has never learned the phrase, "Learn from your mistakes and move on."

2023: Only because Sakurai himself insisted that "X" character is just a Trophy and is not playable in any shape or way, that doesn't means "X" is not gonna be playable, he is totally 100% teasing us.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

We have no evidence that she didn't win dude.

Any evidence against her winning dwelves into the level on conspiracy theory.

Besides, it seems that vets actually topped the ballot.

I'm really far back and catching up now, but this is a common sentiment in this thread that Bayonetta won the ballot legit and people who suspect she didn't are treated as conspiracists. However there is objective evidence Bayonetta was planned from before the Ballot and it was used afterward to justify her inclusion; dataminers found that of the Mario slots added in 1.0.6, one has the same exact stats as Zero Suit Samus, which were gradually changed over time to what became Bayonetta (another of the Mario slots has the same stats as Ike which became Cloud, and then in 1.0.8 when the final Mario slot was added it also had the same stats as Ike, which became Corrin). 1.0.6 dropped only two weeks after the Ballot launched, meaning there was really no way the Ballot was actually used to decide Bayo, and it appears to have been a sham in deciding DLC, while its real purpose was to be used to get data for future games, as the Japanese page said it could be used for (or Sakurai was initially planning more DLC based on the Ballot but decided at some point to save everything for a new Smash and instead made up the stuff about Bayonetta being the "Ballot winner" to avoid having to admit it ended up being used for a new Smash game).

This information isn't easily sourced since you have to look through the data yourself, but it can found in fighter_param if you know how to do that, and all the prominent dataminers confirmed it.

 

[KMDP]

No he didn't.

All points that Waluigi might be coming blatantly disregard his official disconfirmation.

There are no good points on why Waluigi will be coming.

2014: "The shadow doesn't disconfirm him. Sakurai could be teasing Ridley as a playable character."
2015: "I laugh whenever I see someone say the Mii costume disconfirms K. Rool."
2018: "Look at the way Waluigi comes out. That doesn't look like a normal Assist Trophy."

The Smash community has never learned the phrase, "Learn from your mistakes and move on."

At this point, people should really just accept that Waluigi is an Assist Trophy again.

To those who won't accept Waluigi as an Assist Trophy:

"Let it go, and move on."