Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PeridotGX]

Ffffffffaaaalllcon? Maybe?
EDIT: Maybe he could be like...A ganon echo...or something. I cant think of anything good.

Still doesn't make sence. If there was going to be a Fire starter Falcon Echo, why not go for the much more fitting Blaziken?

 

[vaanrose]

Some of us have just never had a problem with clones in the first place.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Who could Incineroar Echo?

Bowser obviously, both spew fire and grab, therefore that's all Incineroar can hope to be am I right "Decidueye can't be unique because 5 characters use an arrow the same way" crowd?

 

[Makai Wars]

Roadblocked: Isabelle(I can't imagine her actually making sense as a fighter due to her extreme pacifism as well as being someone who I wouldn't ever want to hurt. Very few characters are like that for me).

That's adorable, but I agree. The thing is, you can KO Assist Trophies now right? I hate the idea of potentially hurting Isabelle, hopefully she still does her perfect spotdodge before waving goodbye.

Still doesn't make sence. If there was going to be a Fire starter Falcon Echo, why not go for the much more fitting Blaziken?

I have no stake in the Incineroar echo claim, you asked and I answered, Falcon is the only thing that really comes to mind, Blaziken would be miles better for obvious reasons.

 

[EchoAegis]

Some of us have just never had a problem with clones in the first place.

I still can't believe people complain about clones. This quote from Sakurai about clones is so true and still can be said to this day always.

This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, “Change this to a meat dish!!”

 

[SlickWylde]

Easiest decision.

I'd support that. I don't know much about him (aside from the fact that he's the F-Zero baddy), but he sems like he'd be a fun heavyweight. The more heavyweights the better.

 

[vaanrose]

If you demons can explode Isabelle with a Blue Shell, you can get used to Falcon Punching her.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

this is has been proven false. Sakurai (rightly) said cloud represents ALL final fantasy.

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left.

—That’s true. No other franchises come to mind.

Sakurai: Exactly. And within the FF franchise, Cloud is without question the most popular choice. A number of people fixate on the fact his original game was never released on a Nintendo console, but if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work? Maybe they could change jobs or something… Actually, that would be kind of interesting (laughs).

(Everyone laughs)

Sakurai: At the same time, I think it’s only natural to prioritize the character who enjoys worldwide popularity. I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though.

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

That's not really what he means. He doesn't "represent FF as a whole". What he does is represent FFVII entirely on his own but was chosen as is because Sakurai wanted an FF character due to the series' legacy. There's a huge difference in character design(in which Cloud has jack-all to do with anything other than FFVII(spin-offs o and Dissidia at best. In addition, he has nothing to do with anything but the Playstation-related FF games at best. People are looking at his design the wrong way. Yes, he's intentionally meant to be based entirely on FFVII and spin-offs. The closest thing we have to a generic FF representation, which is not Cloud due to being solely based upon FFVII with a bit of Dissidia thrown in is the Chocobo Mii Costume, and that's based more upon a spin-off Chocobo game, but at least the character appeared in more than just VII and its spin-offs.)

That's adorable, but I agree. The thing is, you can KO Assist Trophies now right? I hate the idea of potentially hurting Isabelle, hopefully she still does her perfect spotdodge before waving goodbye.

Only some AT's. And only ones that can hurt you. She heals, not hurts. No way she would be KO-able, unless she was literally playable, which I don't feel is nearly that likely at all. It was made more clear when Sakurai chose Zelda to be based upon ALTTP/ALBW because she would actually take real action in those games, compared to BOTW where she wouldn't(which is odd, since that version is Zelda is an adventurer. But it may have to do with the fact that BOTW Zelda's is wayyyyyyyy different and not a Princess, so she couldn't logically use the earlier moveset because it's unfitting. Not an issue for a magic wielder like ALTTP/ALBW designs, which seems to work better for him). He clearly does care about whether the character could potentially fight.

I have no stake in the Incineroar echo claim, you asked and I answered, Falcon is the only thing that really comes to mind, Blaziken would be miles better for obvious reasons.

They actually wouldn't work nearly as well as people think. Blaziken has too many physical differences as well as many moves that aren't that similar. While he could perform some attacks, he'd work way better as a semi-clone instead.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Nah, this interpretation of Sakurai is quite flawed. Just consider the fact that he was thinking of including Heihachi, who has never been the protagonist of Tekken. Before Tekken 7 he was lucky to even make the box cover.

The fact that basically every franchise in Smash has begun with its protagonist is because in almost every case, the protagonist is the most important/most popular character. Ryu is actually an anomaly in the fighting game world, usually no one cares at all about the actual protagonist, because they're by design generally one of the more boring characters on the roster. I couldn't even tell you who the actual protagonist of Soul Calibur even is, but I know Nightmare. Everybody knows Nightmare.

Heihachi was the main character of Tekken 2.

Also, what do you think of the idea of Spring Man in Smash?

 

[Billybae10K]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

Isaac from Golden Sun 100%. And if he doesn't come back as playable, I at least hope Sakurai revives his Brawl Assist Trophy.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

I would want to say Lip from Panel De Pon, but that would be obvious, so --

Doshin the Giant. It's just such an adorable character no one would expect, which would make him perfect.

 

[Iridium]

Alright that's all well and good but why is Lucario counted as a DS character then if he debuted first on Red and Blue rescue team?

Was it a playable Lucario? Because that is counted here, and the game counted for Lucario is Pokémon Diamond & Pearl, so maybe it is that. Which game came first?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Was it a playable Lucario? Because that is counted here, and the game counted for Lucario is Pokémon Diamond & Pearl, so maybe it is that. Which game came first?

It's been noted that being playable wasn't nearly as important as having a huge role, playable or not. Hence, Ganondorf's important debut was on the N64, as his first playable appearance is in Melee.

Roy's biggest role was actually in Melee debut-wise. Lucario's biggest role is actually the Movie before the DS games, but system-wise, it's the DS games.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I hope Ultimate gets more Pokemon themed.

Pokemon and Smash Bros. goes well. The legendaries make really good stage hazards and they have good stages. Also Necrozma would make a good boss. Not Ultra Necrozma, but regular Necrozma because the roster was decided before USUM's release.

Am I the only one that wants both Incineroar and Decidueye?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

In case anyone's curious, the 25 top grossing media franchises that started as video games (console, arcade, computer, or mobile) are as follows:

1. Pokemon - $59.1 billion
2. Mario - $26.3 billion
3. Call of Duty - $16 billion
4. Pac-Man - $15.1 billion
5. Space Invaders - $13.9 billion
6. Wii - $12.33 billion
7. Street Fighter - $11.5 billion
8. Dungeon Fighter Online - $10.5 billion
9. Final Fantasy - $10.4 billion
10. Warcraft - $10.4 billion
11. CrossFire - $9.3 billion
12. Grand Theft Auto - $8.56 billion
13. Lineage - $7.733 billion
14. Sonic the Hedgehog - $7.23 billion
15. Donkey Kong - $6.37 billion
16. Puzzle and Dragons - $6.1 billion
17. FIFA - $6 billion (as of 2013)
18. League of Legends - $5.69 billion
19. Dragon Quest - $5.61 billion
20. Fantasy Westward Journey - $5.5 billion
21. Resident Evil - $5.17 billion
22. Mortal Kombat - $5 billion
23. Halo - $5 billion
24. Arena of Valor - $4.637 billion
25. Monster Strike - $4.61 billion

Just puts things into perspective a little.

Wonder how it would look without the microtransaction sales.

 

[Cosmic77]

Anyone have some thoughts on what Young Link's Final Smash could be? He's the only returning veteran who hasn't been seen with his Final Smash yet. I have a feeling it'll end up being Triforce Slash, but I'd really like for it to be something else.

Maybe if Skull Kid doesn't get in, Sakurai will give us a special Majora's Mask themed Final Smash where Skull Kid summons the moon to crash down on the stage.

 

[Troykv]

Wonder how it would look without the microtransaction sales.

Look to the franchises with microtransactions and remove like 1 billon.

 

[GunBlaze]

Anyone have some thoughts on what Young Link's Final Smash could be? He's the only returning veteran who hasn't been seen with his Final Smash yet. I have a feeling it'll end up being Triforce Slash, but I'd really like for it to be something else.

Maybe if Skull Kid doesn't get in, Sakurai will give us a special Majora's Mask themed Final Smash where Skull Kid summons the moon to crash down on the stage.

Given Tink keeps Triforce Slash, I'm very afraid...

Ganondorf is not an echo, he's a clone. They've drawn a very clear line between the two with even Dr. Mario being considered not an echo.

I was talking about taking a character from a series and introducing a character from another series with a cloned moveset taken from the former.

And yes, I know 'Dorf was the last Melee char to be added to the game, and even then, it was because Falcon's skeleton fit his model.

 

[Jubileus57]

Who could Incineroar Echo?

Well the answer is obvious.

Spoiler

Jigglypuff, of course

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Anyone have some thoughts on what Young Link's Final Smash could be? He's the only returning veteran who hasn't been seen with his Final Smash yet. I have a feeling it'll end up being Triforce Slash, but I'd really like for it to be something else.

Maybe if Skull Kid doesn't get in, Sakurai will give us a special Majora's Mask themed Final Smash where Skull Kid summons the moon to crash down on the stage.

Would be a bit odd if Skull Kid helped Young Link imo. Young Link equipping the Fierce Deity's mask and going ham is a possibility, even if it's a Triforce Slash clone, but a more fun FS would be if he could summon the Giants and they'd go to town on his opponents in a cutscene.

 

[lltacx]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

Heracross

 

[New_Dumal]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

Dixie Kong.

 

[Idon]

Would be a bit odd if Skull Kid helped Young Link imo. Young Link equipping the Fierce Deity's mask and going ham is a possibility, even if it's a Triforce Slash clone, but a more fun FS would be if he could summon the Giants and they'd go to town on his opponents in a cutscene.

All they did was raise up their arms and hold up a moon though.

In Hyrule Warriors they justified Skull kid summoning the moon by Skull kid trying to kill Fierce Deity Link before cutting the entire moon in half.

Besides, this is OoT Ylink, not MM Link so he's probably just gonna use triforce slash.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Thanks for all your answers everyone!

If I could guarantee anyone’s spot it would be Isabelle (if she’s not an Assist Trophy this time.), but following my own rules, probably Mimikyu.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

Dixie Kong, my good sis deserves

 

[KMDP]

Nightmare and Kefka? You can't be serious. Both would be awesome, sure, but Sakurai always makes it a point that a series needs it's main PROTAGONIST first before going down the rest of the list. Nightmare could sort of be argued as one, but he's still primarily an antagonist at the end of the day, and considering Sakurai seems to be treating 7 as its own separate universe rather than representing Final Fantasy as a whole, we would need Terra before Kefka.

What a joke. Apparently this person didn't get the memo that the "Heroes and Villains" theme is debunked. :V

Nightmare is the mascot of Team Soul, just saying.

Everybody knows Nightmare.

That too.

I couldn't even tell you who the actual protagonist of Soul Calibur even is, but I know Nightmare.

I'd argue every 'hero' character is the protagonist of Soul Calibur, but I think it's mostly Sophitia, Siegfried, Kilik and Ivy that take the top billing.

 

[Cosmic77]

All they did was raise up their arms and hold up a moon though.

In Hyrule Warriors they justified Skull kid summoning the moon by Skull kid trying to kill Fierce Deity Link before cutting the entire moon in half.

Besides, this is OoT Ylink, not MM Link so he's probably just gonna use triforce slash.

As far as Final Smashes go, I don't think it really matters which game Young Link's design is based off of. He's heavily associated with both OoT and MM, so a Final Smash inspired from either game would work just fine.

 

[domriver]

Ivy in SMASH?

Spoiler: A bit revealing

Ill main her. She is my main when i do play Soul Calibur. would be nice if she ever joined smash. I hope one of her grabs is the one where she has them kneeling on all fours and then she puts her high heel on their back. While telling them to "Dance" Strangle!![/spoiler]

 

[EchoAegis]

Has there ever been a Mario party stage? if not then I think that could be such a fun and creative level they could make and I'm surprised they haven't made one so far.

 

[Arcanir]

What do you guys think of the idea of having the main character of Dragalia Lost as a playable character?

I think he'd be cool, granted there's still more that we need to learn about the game, but from what we've seen so far of the character I'd be on board with him.

Plus his game is the closest I'm getting to a new Breath of Fire in over a decade, so he wins points just for that.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Has there ever been a Mario party stage? if not then I think that could be such a fun and creative level they could make and I'm surprised they haven't made one so far.

It's never gonna happen but Toadette's music room from Mario Party DS would make the coolest stage, wigglers garden, kamek's library and bowser's pinball machine would be dope as well. That game only had like 5 boards but they're all probably some of the coolest in the series

 

[Cosmic77]

Has there ever been a Mario party stage? if not then I think that could be such a fun and creative level they could make and I'm surprised they haven't made one so far.

The most recognition Mario Party has ever gotten (aside from stickers) is a trophy of Ballyhoo and Bigtop in Brawl and a single track (Fundemonium) in Smash Wii U.

I think a Mario Party stage would be fun, but I'm not sure if Sakurai would ever go through with it. Although, Daisy getting in Smash might help, as spin-offs are where she's made a name for herself.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

If you could guarantee the inclusion of one character on the roster who would it be?

Rules:

1. Must be 1st Party.

2. Cannot already exist as an Assist Trophy.

3. Have fun, and be civil with others.

Aww, but Dovahkiin is 3rd party...

Realistically, I’d want to know the Kroc is in. But he does have a good chance, so I might go ahead and gamble on Urbosa.

I couldn't even tell you who the actual protagonist of Soul Calibur even is, but I know Nightmare. Everybody knows Nightmare

Nightmare is the mascot of Project Soul, in the same way that Scorpion is for Neatherrealm. The big protagonists are Sophitia and Xianghua, but since SC3, Siegfried really stepped into that role as Xianghua got pushed into being an extra and Sophie got darker.

However I could totally see Siegfried and Nightmare pulling a Bayo and having both costumes with different color weapon trails. They are in-universe ‘echoes,’ after all.

 

[SmashChu]

Heihachi was the main character of Tekken 2.

Also, what do you think of the idea of Spring Man in Smash?

I know you are replying to someone else, but I'll address the second part of your question.

What Van was saying kind of applies to Springman as well. In the Smash community, I'm seeing more disdain for him since he's considered "boring," at least compared to the rest of the cast. That said, he is also the face of the series and his design is unique within Smash. He works for what an ARMS characters need to be and he does a good job of representing what ARMS is. Unlike the rest of the characters, his design and namesake are the same as what type of arm he has. Same goes for Ribbon Girl actually. Springman's abilities (powering up at low health and the deflecting after a dodge) are unique as well (though Lucario also powers up at high damage but its more gradual than what Spring Man has).

 

[SlickWylde]

We already knew Knuckles was an Assist Trophy, right? (The facebook page just made a post about it)

 

[KingBroly]

We already knew Knuckles was an Assist Trophy, right? (The facebook page just made a post about it)

Yes. It was in the Direct.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I think people like the idea of echo fighters but if implemented without discrimination would object to them harshly. Imagine if characters like Ridley, K.K Rool or Isaac was just made as echo fighters (quick development time); people would be complaining tooth and nail about why their character is an exact replica of said character. Impa, Shadow, Chrom, or whatever shouldn't just be delegated to a mere echo because the fans of theirs also want them to feel unique. Considering that Lucina / Dark Pit are still clones and Sakurai didn't give more time to flash them out AND the fact Ganondorf is just now getting sword smashes (some of which are mere imitations of other swordies mind you AND people were so happy when they saw it during live reactions) tells me I would not want my fighter to be an echo if I ever wanted them to be unique.

People apparently have forgotten how people complained about why Ganondorf was pretty much a Falcon clone for so long and had nothing from his games (not to mention that Ganondorf was bottom tier in Brawl and Smash 4). It's not actually good (balance wise) giving an exact move-set of a fighter and changing some attributes as you will either make them clearly inferior to the original or straight up better ex. Pit arrows, Forward-Tilt and I believe rapid jab is straight up better than Dark Pit's and the only thing Dark Pit has is a horizontal Side-B that isn't straight up better than Pit's (Pit does not rely on stage position while Dark Pit does, but Dark Pit can kill earlier depending on stage position). Doctor Mario although not 1:1 replica but is similar enough is MUCH worse than Mario having literally 0 representation in tournaments. You actually feel the difference in viability when you play Mario then Dr. Mario against a competent person.

So to someone who likes the competitive side of Smash; I am not accepting of clones but merely tolerate them. Casuals of course do not have to care about this because their casual (this is their advantage to be quite honest); this is true to many games where casuals do not notice the nuances of things of game design (unlike hardcore gamers); this is fine of course but I wanted to mention this to not alienate casuals. I think people will be happy and disappointed if their wanted newcomer is an echo because it just destroys all the move-set creation / potential ideas they may have etc.

I am in the lets have alternate costumes camp etc. I am very Pro-DLC Skins. Basically people are okay with Echo Characters as long as it's not their character. (Proof? K.K Rool thread where the idea of him being an echo was rejected quickly.)

 

[EchoAegis]

It's never gonna happen but Toadette's music room from Mario Party DS would make the coolest stage, wigglers garden, kamek's library and bowser's pinball machine would be dope as well. That game only had like 5 boards but they're all probably some of the coolest in the series

Exactly the boards throughout the Mario party series are so awesome it has so much potential for an amazing stage

Although, Daisy getting in Smash might help, as spin-offs are where she's made a name for herself.

Never actually thought about that but yeah I hope Sakurai looks more into the Mario spin-offs for music and stages

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

In case some of y'all didn't know, I made a topic to archive all of the Smash Blog posts. It's official and stickied and stuffs. Also Japan gets some exclusive content on their blog that the wonderful Venus has translated for us.

https://smashboards.com/threads/sup...-newest-todays-fighter-sonic-knuckles.455583/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just to note, Siegfried and Nightmare actually diverged here and there in the series, so while costumes could work, an echo might not work as well due to some fairly big differences these days. Though I doubt we'd get both(outside of an alt).

Nightmare's biggest thing in Soul Calibur III is that he's no longer part of Siegfried and is his own man, which is also why he has new moves and abilities, including the ability to turn into Night Terror. For this reason alone, they could make perfect echoes of each other. Different Final Smash and slightly different attributes on certain moves work well. Beyond that, Siegfried would just need a unique Final Smash. On another note, the biggest issue with Nightmare is actually representing his playstyle well. He's designed heavily for 3D fighting, as his moves can constantly throw enemies into the Z-axis plane. This is a focus on a lot of what he does too. Trying to keep his heavy blade style, which is more about pushing the opponent around than just sending them flying, can be difficult.

It's a similar reason why someone like Voldo could never work in Smash. He's designed around the fact that fighters naturally always face each other as part of the gameplay. His ability to attack behind him and turn around is a unique feature that is already doable in Smash. On the other hand, he'd make a kickass Assist Trophy~