Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Crap-Zapper]

And that one thing would be our famous villain from Donkey Kong... CRANKY KONG

Zeox, don't fool yourself. Donkey Kong's most prominent villain is Nintendo.

 

[KMDP]

Our staff will continue working hard until the game releases. We really appreciate your support. We've made including every single fighter ever our number one goal, so I'm kind of hoping you aren't expecting too many new challengers... ... However, we do have one more announcement...

Nowhere does Sakurai say we're getting no new challengers.
Nowhere does he say a lot of the new challengers will be Echo Fighters.
Nowhere does he say we'll have less (or more) newcomers than previous games.

All he says is "I hope you aren't expecting too many new challengers."

All this can be taken as to mean is exactly what he says: "Don't expect too many new challengers."

How many new challengers is 'too many'? One? Five? Seven? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty? One Hundred? While we can make an educated guess with the higher numbers (One hundred would definitely be too many, no Smash game has had 20+ newcomers at launch), we don't know exactly what Sakurai means, even in context.

Just something I wanted to lay on the table. Personally, I think it's a calculated statment so that people don't go wild with hype and say there are going to be more newcomers than ever, but that's just me.

 

[DraginHikari]

I personally do feel a bit dismayed they were dishonest about the Ballot, but also can't blame them if it was originally for actual DLC but then midway decided it would be better to use it for a immediate new Smash game and thus needed to save face while keeping their plans for a new Smash game under wraps (while the *Among realizable characters gives them the leeway to be technically "truthful"). Either way it appears we're getting what the people voted for in the Ballot and in a new better bigger Smash game a lot sooner than the typical wait between Smash games, so regardless the fans get what they want in the end and I can't be upset about that.

More or less agree with your conclusion. Frankly, I've gotten pretty used to big companies in the game industry lying to the point where I'm kind of numb to it now.

Whats funny is how many more people are suddenly so welcoming to no-effort clones just because Sakurai gave them a special little name.

Marketing. It's quite effective in making people more accepting of things they normally wouldn't be.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is it just me or does every "leaker" think that Gang-Plank Galleon is the most likely new stage? I'll laugh if it's not in the game. I will ... be quite happy if it is, because that could only mean one thing.

Eh, to be fair? How many thought Mewtwo was guaranteed base roster for 4 but he became base DLC instead? I mean, it's just a prediction many share. No different from everybody knowing Inklings would be in. There's probably other examples, but they might be harder to think of right now.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I made a second in-depth analysis for my Smash Ultimate prediction roster, enjoy reading:

https://smashboards.com/threads/a-s...f-my-smash-ultimate-prediction-roster.456218/

 

[Untouch]

Is it just me or does every "leaker" think that Gang-Plank Galleon is the most likely new stage? I'll laugh if it's not in the game. I will ... be quite happy if it is, because that could only mean one thing.

I mean, the WW pirate ship AND jungle hijinx levels haven't been seen yet.

 

[Will]

I mean, the WW pirate ship AND jungle hijinx levels haven't been seen yet.

Jungle Japes takes the Hijinx's place.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nowhere does Sakurai say we're getting no new challengers.
Nowhere does he say a lot of the new challengers will be Echo Fighters.
Nowhere does he say we'll have less (or more) newcomers than previous games.

All he says is "I hope you aren't expecting too many new challengers."

All this can be taken as to mean is exactly what he says: "Don't expect too many new challengers."

How many new challengers is 'too many'? One? Five? Seven? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty? One Hundred? While we can make an educated guess with the higher numbers (One hundred would definitely be too many, no Smash game has had 20+ newcomers at launch), we don't know exactly what Sakurai means, even in context.

Just something I wanted to lay on the table. Personally, I think it's a calculated statment so that people don't go wild with hype and say there are going to be more newcomers than ever, but that's just me.

To be honest, the best thing to think of is that we'll probably get less than Smash 4's total list of newcomers, Echoes included. I mean, 4 had 21 newcomers. It'll likely be less than that, basically.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm really far back and catching up now, but this is a common sentiment in this thread that Bayonetta won the ballot legit and people who suspect she didn't are treated as conspiracists. However there is objective evidence Bayonetta was planned from before the Ballot and it was used afterward to justify her inclusion; dataminers found that of the Mario slots added in 1.0.6, one has the same exact stats as Zero Suit Samus, which were gradually changed over time to what became Bayonetta (another of the Mario slots has the same stats as Ike which became Cloud, and then in 1.0.8 when the final Mario slot was added it also had the same stats as Ike, which became Corrin). 1.0.6 dropped only two weeks after the Ballot launched, meaning there was really no way the Ballot was actually used to decide Bayo, and it appears to have been a sham in deciding DLC, while its real purpose was to be used to get data for future games, as the Japanese page said it could be used for (or Sakurai was initially planning more DLC based on the Ballot but decided at some point to save everything for a new Smash and instead made up the stuff about Bayonetta being the "Ballot winner" to avoid having to admit it ended up being used for a new Smash game).

This information isn't easily sourced since you have to look through the data yourself, but it can found in fighter_param if you know how to do that, and all the prominent dataminers confirmed it.

Do you have a source for this claim? This would be the first I've heard of it.

 

[SquashiniKun]

More "leaks"

Spoiler: "Leak 1"

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/422817805/#422817805
RIGGER are animating the opening movie for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

>the opening movie is roughly around 2 minutes long
>the intro starts with a zoomed in shot of Mario adjusting his cap, and then getting into a fight ready position. The view zooms out to show other classic Smash Bros characters behind him, as everyone begins to run towards the sunset where the Smash Ball is seen.
>The next shots show various Smash Bros characters fighting each other. Mario fighting Bowser, Pit and Link. Little Mac fighting against Marth. Kirby and Pikachu against Peach and Zelda. Fox vs Pokemon Trainer.
>It then shows shots of singular characters. Lucario meditating on top of a cliff. Ice Climbers helping each other up a mountain. Corrin staring into the distance in a field. Snake hiding in a box.
>A quick shot of Sonic, Mega Man and Pac Man taunting.
>A quick shot of Cloud, Ryu and Bayonetta taunting.
>The shot after that is a following shot, that has Inkling enter the boxing ring and fighting off various characters attacking her. She then stops running and has her back faced against the male Inkling, and nod to each other.
>Other newcomers (who I will not spoil) begin to enter the ring from all sides. They're surrounding Mario, Link, Donkey Kong and Samus. They're all about to jump attack them, but Bowser body slams into the stage.
>The next shots include slow motion of the echo fighters and clones fighting their original counter parts, with slow mo of the characters being punched in the face, dodging projectile and sword attacks.
>A shot of Ridley bursting his way onto Final Destination is shown, with various characters being knocked out by the impact. Ridley fires a deadly laser onto the stage to knock more fighters off, but looks back to see Zero Suit Samus, Ike, Cloud, Mario and Sonic flying right at him at fast speed.
>The last shots are quick shots of most of the classic characters, third parties and newcomers preparing to do a final smash, before ending at Mario's.

Spoiler: "Leak 2"

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/422815275/#422815275
I am fortunate enough to know an insider from Nintendo who was generous enough to let me in on some new information regarding Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on Nintendo Switch. Of course, I can not disclose this person's identity as it could result in the loss of their job.

So far, this is all I know:

The characters I have been told are 100% in the game are King K. Rool, Simon Belmont, Springman, Geno and another character representing the NES era. I believe they said it was Bubbles from Clu Clu Land. Shadow and Funky Kong are Echo Fighters of Sonic and Donkey Kong, respectively. As far as I know, there are a few other characters but my source decided not to tell me who they were since they didn't want to spoil everything!

Some unconfirmed stages that will be in the game are Kongo Jungle from 64, Fountain of Dreams, Mute City and Mushroom Kingdom from Melee, Delfino Plaza and Pirate Ship from Brawl, Dream Land, Golden Plains and Paper Mario from 3DS, and Jungle Hijinxs from Wii U

New stages include Dracula's Castle, an Urban Champion stage, the Aether Foundation, Gang-Plank Galleon, Spring Stadium, and a new Dr. Mario stage.

I was not told much about the single player modes but I do know that there will be an Adventure Mode, hearkening back to the one in Melee. The Forest Maze from Super Mario RPG will be a stage in this mode. Target Smash will also be returning in a similar vein to Brawl's, with five generic stages for each difficulty.

Regular stuff. The first one shows some promise, but gives nothing.

I hope that Leak 1 is true, because seeing all these video game characters being animated by the studio that did Kill La KIll and Little Witch Academia sounds f-ing amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

You all really need to appreciate how amazing the art is in Ultimate.

I mean this looks 4K, and the Switch does not even support 4K.

We all should thank Sakurai and his team for his work for this game instead of ranting.

 

[Untouch]

Do you have a source for this claim? This would be the first I've heard of it.

I see this popping up a lot, but I've never seen any actual evidence of it.

 

[New_Dumal]

I never played Mother 3 because there's no official translation but Masked Man is cool. He looks like a mix of Ness and Meta Knight,and this is a cool concept.

If characters were judged by "merit", Porky is the best option to Mother series, since he appears in two games.

But while there's no newcomer from Donkey Kong I feel bad to hype a Mother character. Hope we eventually receive both, but Mother series is a bit low on my personal priorities.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I’m just realizing the amount of shipswill have now...run

You all really need to appreciate how amazing the art is in Ultimate.

I mean this looks 4K, and the Switch does not even support 4K.

We all should thank Sakurai and his team for his work for this game instead of ranting.

Kirby is using that helmet to hide his regrets in picking a fight with Ridley...either that or he didn’t realize he was playable until that specific moment

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Do you have a source for this claim? This would be the first I've heard of it.

As said, it's not easily sourceable since it's datamine stuff, but it can be found in fighter_param.bin if you know how to do that stuff, and otherwise you can just ask the dataminers. Here's a screenshot from Kurogane Hammer's discord where they discuss it:

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Marketing. It's quite effective in making people more accepting of things they normally wouldn't be.

Now all they have to do is rebrand Assist Trophies as Portal Warriors.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

We already know a unique, made from scratch character takes around 6 months of development thanks to Mewtwo. Bayonetta definitely was started on before October 2015.



Spring Man is pretty similar to Robin in the sense that whilst both of them can be considered vanilla in their own home franchise, they both represents the essence of their franchise. You can look at Spring Man and instantly get what ARMS is all about. At any rate, Spring Man would be a pretty cool addition and he gets way too much dislike for supposedly being "boring".

The real question is Spring Man even popular ENOUGH ? Personally I do find him boring myself and generic. Someone like Twintelle would be far more interesting and sassy. I'm not even into Arms AT ALL and I know about Twintelle.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As said, it's not easily sourceable since it's datamine stuff, but it can be found in fighter_param.bin if you know how to do that stuff, and otherwise you can just ask the dataminers. Here's a screenshot from Kurogane Hammer's discord where they discuss it:

So here's my question.

Why did we not know the file was based on certain characters when we knew everything else about them almost immediately?

That should have made as much noise as the fact that the slots existed.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The real question is Spring Man even popular ENOUGH ? Personally I do find him boring myself and generic. Someone like Twintelle would be far more interesting and sassy. I'm not even into Arms AT ALL and I know about Twintelle.

It's not that simple. ARMS is a new franchise. If it gets a character, it makes sense to pick the most recognizable one/face of the series.

It's much easier to not worry about that factor with a game series that already has playable characters, or even content. ARMS is nonexistent in Smash, which is more due to the product starting in 2015, before ARMS likely was starting development as well. So unless somebody becomes so insanely popular they become a new face/icon of the series(like Fulgore and Nightmare did for Killer Instinct and Soul Calibur respectively), it's pretty much Spring Man as the only realistic option. The face doesn't have to be the original protagonist either. But ARMS has a total of two faces, both of which have enough similarities for the purpose in Smash that they could work as both Echoes or Alts without issues.

 

[Will]

I hope that Leak 1 is true, because seeing all these video game characters being animated by the studio that did Kill La KIll and Little Witch Academia sounds f-ing amazing.

I thought Studio Trigger did Kill la Kill?

 

[Opossum]

The real question is Spring Man even popular ENOUGH ? Personally I do find him boring myself and generic. Someone like Twintelle would be far more interesting and sassy. I'm not even into Arms AT ALL and I know about Twintelle.

Spring Man is the Ryu of ARMS. If we get any character from it, it's him.

 

[Makai Wars]

The real question is Spring Man even popular ENOUGH ? Personally I do find him boring myself and generic. Someone like Twintelle would be far more interesting and sassy. I'm not even into Arms AT ALL and I know about Twintelle.

Probably because people hyped up her ass.
And yes, to answer your question, both Springman and ARMS are absolutely popular, selling over 2 million copies despite being both a fighting game and a brand new IP. Even if ARMS didn't hit the religion status that Splatoon did, saying that it was a failure or that the ARMS characters aren't popular is simply untrue.
Even if you think Springman is the stock standard choice, he's the face of the game and therefore is the most logical choice as a fighter, yes Min Min and Dr. Coyle have more flavor but Springman represents ARMS the best. The only reason I don't consider Springman a shoe in for Smash 5 is because his game happened much later than when the roster was decided, kind of like how Inklings were out of the running for Smash 4 because their game came out too late, though now that I look it up, FE Fates came out a month AFTER Splatoon and yet Corrin got in as DLC...hmm....

Anyway Springman is a safe DLC bet if not the posterboy for Smash 6. I'd like a Springron Alt, and eventually a Ribbon Girl Echo and Dr. Coyle to be the bad guy rep, she's so cool!

 

[Untouch]

I'd want ribbon girl more as she has more moveset potential but it's pretty hard to deny that it'd be spring man.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Spring Man is the Ryu of ARMS. If we get any character from it, it's him.

Inb4 Ribbon Girl gets in due to her singing skills

 

[Will]

Inb4 Ribbon Girl gets in due to her singing skills

She'll have to wait until Pauline gets in

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There has never been a case where an inaugural character, no matter how “boring” they may be considered, was passed over for a secondary character.

If ARMS gets a character in Smash, it will be Spring Man first. It’s the same thing as XC2. If XC2 gets a character in Smash, it would absolutely be Rex and Pyra.

Fiora is one of the most popular Xenoblade characters. We still got Shulk as the first Xenoblade character.

It really isn’t complicated. I totally get why certain characters might be wanted over Spring Man or *insert character here*. But chances are the main, “title character” is going to be the first character from their respective franchise to be added.

Of course, i’m sure somebody will respond that “Sakurai changes the way he does things all the time!”, which isn’t wrong by any means. But make no mistake, just because he changes certain things doesn’t mean he’ll change others.

 

[EchoAegis]

Spring Man is the Ryu of ARMS. If we get any character from it, it's him.

It kinda sad that this is 100% fact. The cast of Arms is great but we have to settle with the most boring one of them all.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

So here's my question.

Why did we not know the file was based on certain characters when we knew everything else about them almost immediately?

That should have made as much noise as the fact that the slots existed.

The Mario slots having stats wasn't known at the time and was discovered after the fact, a lot of the datamine stuff was a process to figure out (like stats weren't known how to find for a long time, for example Dedede's air speed nerf was discovered after the fact, and landing lag wasn't known how to be found in the data for nearly the entirety of Smash 4's active patching period, meaning landing lag changes had to be found by manually recording everyone and counting the frames of their landing lag)

 

[Noipoi]

Guys, you're ALL wrong! The best ARMS character is Min-Min!

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know too much about ARMs but isn't Twintelle the most popular character in that game? If so I could see her getting in over Spring Man, however slim of a possibility it is.

 

[Pakky]

As said, it's not easily sourceable since it's datamine stuff, but it can be found in fighter_param.bin if you know how to do that stuff, and otherwise you can just ask the dataminers. Here's a screenshot from Kurogane Hammer's discord where they discuss it:

Maxillian dood called out Bayo before DLC was even a thing and I believed him and looked what happened.

I knew the ballot was a ruse, these talks were done way before launch.

magically gets heels out of nowhere as if her model was being used for someone else.

 

[ThreeT]

How much legitimacy do you think this has?

https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1013939722870116353

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So here's my question.

Why did we not know the file was based on certain characters when we knew everything else about them almost immediately?

That should have made as much noise as the fact that the slots existed.

Really. Did you guys deliberately keep this information from the wider Smash scene? If so, I understand, but why are we hearing about this just now?

How much legitimacy do you think this has?

https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1013939722870116353

Look above.

 

[Starbound]

If we got an ARMS character, I really don't know who I'd like because I like all of them. They're all really unique. Spring Man makes the most sense though since he's the flagship character.

Though I'd love Twintelle with a psuedo 'Witch Time' effect on her smash attacks, or Dr. Coyle with invisibility and permanent levitation. It'd be more exciting than having Spring Man with another reflector.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Really. Did you guys deliberately keep this information from the wider Smash scene? If so, I understand, but why are we hearing about this just now?

As said:

The Mario slots having stats wasn't known at the time and was discovered after the fact, a lot of the datamine stuff was a process to figure out (like stats weren't known how to find for a long time, for example Dedede's air speed nerf were discovered after the fact, and landing lag wasn't known how to be found in the data for nearly the entirety of Smash 4's active patching period, meaning landing lag changes had to be found by manually recording everyone and counting the frames of their landing lag)

 

[Hinata]

How much legitimacy do you think this has?

https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1013939722870116353

I voted for Bayo in the Smash Ballot, so even if the ballot meant nothing and Bayo was planned from day 1, that's cool with me.

 

[ThreeT]

Really. Did you guys deliberately keep this information from the wider Smash scene? If so, I understand, but why are we hearing about this just now?


Look above.

I'm always late

 

[Kamikazek]

One factor of the sudden change in perception of clone characters post direct that I don't see mentioned much is just perceived viability.

Before Daisy got revealed the prevalent opinion in speculation (that I saw anyway) was that there would be no clones in the new game at all. Most times someone recommended a clone character the conversation would immediately be sidetracked to a discussion of if there'd be clones at all and usually the whole idea would be never be able to gain traction because of that. It even often got taken to the (nonsensical) extent where people were saying that if a character had the potential to be a clone, Sakurai would only see them as a clone and thus never include them because he isn't doing clones, so people were scrambling to prove why characters can't possibly be clones not only because they wanted them to be unique but also because they thought if they came off as good clone candidates they had no chance at all, or at least wouldn't be taken serious for speculation. I saw this happen A LOT with Daisy pre-direct.

Clones didn't just get more popular, they went from being considered unviable to being considered a very likely way for a certain set of characters to get in overnight. Cloneablitly went directly from a reason why a character won't be playable to a reason why they might. Of course that's going to change the way they're treated in speculation heavy places like Smashboards.

 

[UltimateWario]

The point with the ballot thing was that "realizable" characters meant whatever they wanted it to mean. They could've seen that Radical Rex had one vote from some guy in Siberia and said "Radical Rex is the highest polling realizable character!". You also have to consider that you have to save characters for a sequel, which Sakurai likely already knew was happening at that point. I'd say the ballot was used more for Ultimate newcomers than DLC, but some scraps were likely taken from it to decide DLC for 4.

I think it's a little funny to see people "afraid" of the ballot. You've had three games worth of weird Sakurai characters, I think giving the fans characters they want won't hurt, and it's not like Sakurai doesn't make them shine. Just look at Ridley: most people probably would've said Sakurai straight-up HATED Ridley before E3, but here he is, better characterized than he is in most Metroid games and an incredible original design with a perfect alternate costume. I'd rather Sakurai work his magic on characters that people have been asking for like Ridley, K. Rool, etc. than "haha look at this quirky nobody that literally no one cares about, now you like him because he's in Smash!".

 

[Will]

How much legitimacy do you think this has?

https://twitter.com/Virum_SD/status/1013939722870116353

It was all a ruse!