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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Omega Tyrant

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Not everyone plays competitively. My favorite characters have been sitting pretty at the bottom of the tier list every game. Doesn’t mean I like them less.

After all, how many kids are goig around screaming Sheik’s name since she’s a speedster?

I think we like to forget Smash is trying to cater to two different audiences here. Sm4sh sometimes did a poor job of it, so hopefully Ultimate is better at that.
From my observations, it tends to correlate well among casual players too (at least among those invested enough to own the game or play it frequently with friends, not referring to the super casuals here who might pick up a controller at a party and then never look at the game again). There are the exceptions of course, mainly with characters who have huge fanbases outside of Smash and/or are easy to play (Link being the archtypical example), but generally from what I seen someone like Brawl MK will have casuals playing them more than normal once they learn what they can abuse with them (casuals like winning too) while someone like Melee Mewtwo will get dropped when they seem ineffective.

In regards to casual play it can't be proved much one way or the other though and will be largely anecdotal.
 

Freduardo

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Okay, in conjunction with the whole 12 Newcomers Challenge. Would you guys rather do a 10 Stage Challenge or 10 PokéBall Pokémon Challenge?
The trend seems to be to so both... so here goes:

Pokeball:

10 - Castform - Because global weather effects
9 - Slaking - He can load around and be devastating... if you’re unlucky enough to be there when he moves
8 - Shedinja - Only one random move a player can use will stop this ghostly insect... it will stop him instantly, but you have to find it
7 - Rhyperior - He looks cool
6 - Cranidos - Headbutt. And earlier evolution means adorable headbutt
5 -Tyrantrum - Less adorable, but it’s a T Rex
4 - Houndoom - He’d be neat
3 - Hitmonchan - There will be screenshots with him and little Mac.
2 - Smeargle - The Kirby of pokeball summons that isn’t Ditto
1 - Honedge - Like Voltorb he’s an item you can pick up.... at your own risk.

10 stages
10 - Abe Lincoln’s Mech from Codename STEAM
9 - Lorule Castle from Link Between World’s
8 - Gangplank Galleon - Donkey Kong Country
7 - Mac’s Jogging Route - the Statue of Liberty looks cool
6 - Silence - More F Zero
5 - Planet robobot
4 - Death Egg
3 - Mario Party Stage
2 - Xenoblade 2 Final Battle - yes there’d be spoilers, but that’s the backdrop to fight in
1 - Zoda’s Spaceship - It would probably bring Mike Jones as a playable character and I just want Star Tropics content.
 

L9999

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This point does bother me a little bit if I'm being honest.

There are quite a few characters from 64/Melee who could do with a moveset update. It's a little annoying that some characters are stuck with moves just because they've had them forever.

I'd love to see a DK overhaul, with a barrel cannon as his Up Special and him throwing a barrel as his Side Special. I can see why they weren't included in 64, but nowadays...

Other characters that could do with an overhaul in my opinion:

:ultyoshi::ultluigi::ultjigglypuff::ultfalcon::ultdoc::ultfalco::ultyounglink:
LMAO, I forgot about Yoshi. Shows how much I care about him. Luigi, Puff, and Falcon are all fine, and so is Yoshi. He represents his abilities in Mario and Yoshi games pretty well.
 

SuperSmashStephen

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I'm asking why people think 12 isn't too many.
I did a challenge earlier, and asked everyone to do 12 Newcomers. I doubt that’s the reason, but anywho.

12 would be the lowest number of newcomers we’ve ever gotten. It’s tempering expectations while still trying to remain optimistic. I mean, it is a new Smash after all. Everyone coming back probably did take quite a bit of time though.

I don’t think 12 is too many to expect. I think 15 is, but I also think 8 is too low. How many are you expecting??? Keep in mind when I say 12 that includes Inkling, Daisy, and Ridley, so there’d only be 9 more characters to be revealed. Also, DLC is on the table as well, so that could introduce more.
 

Lady Byakugan

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Quite sincerely they are all fine, and I say they are good representations.

:ultmario: is designed to be simple. His tilts and aerials have straightfoward functions, his smash attacks are fast and hit hard, and his mobility is easy to handle. His specials all educate on the simple special functions. Fireball is a projectile, Cape is a reflector, SJP is a recovery move, and FLUDD while unorthodox serve to teach about charge pressure and ledgeguarding. All of his specials represent Mario pretty well. FLUDD is "outdated," but there is nothing inherently wrong with it, and it is pretty good to Mario's gameplan.

:ultdk: is like Mario but more goofy and with more brute strength. In Smash is a mobile heavyweight with decent frame data who hits hard and is straightfoward. With his new grab animation, S4 dash attack, his facial animations, and his already iconic moves like Down B it is safe to assume he is well represented.

:ultlink: IMO was changed to BOTW as a fad. :link64: was based on OoT but if you think about it his moveset was an amalgation of all the common Zelda stuff by that point (bombs, hookshot, boomerang, spin attack), :linkmelee: added the arrows. :link2: followed the TP fad but he was fundamentally the same. I am also under the impression they changed Link as :ultyounglink: would be coming back, thus the radical changes like normal grab and remote controlled bombs. His design was never unfaithful to Zelda games. He even got a less generic dash attack in Smash 4 to represent jump attack.

:ultkirby: is well represented. No need for change.

:ultfox: has a moveset inspired by loose things in SF like deflecting projectiles, the rapid fire, the hand guns in SF SNES, and the general speed. His design in gameplay is functional, no need for change.

:ultsamus: Some say she should be changed but much like Link, all of her common tools from Metroid are used in her design (Charge Shot, Missiles, Bomb, Screw Attack, Grapple Beam). Her made up moves have nothing inherently wrong with them either.

:ultpikachu: is well represented. No need for change.

:ultluigi:has gained some of his own stuff over time but I think his Smash design represents him really well. Luigi has always been similar to Mario, but with his own flare of slippery attributes. S64 also gave origin to his goofy/coward persona.

:ultness: represents MOTHER really well. It is a gimmicky game with a lot of silly attacks, which Ness does. A lot of his normal moves are product of Smash 64 low budget but they have gained uniqueness over the years adding in PSI effects.

:ultfalcon: has made up moves from the beta of Dragon King the Fighting Game. F-Zero racers have been parodies of common media characters, being an over-the-top meme factory represents that aspect well. F-Zero is also a game about speed and heavy punishment, which is what Captain Falcon does.

:ultjigglypuff: was a product of her popularity in 1998 and low budget, but her being a meme joke character is part of her design, which shouldn't be discarded for the sake of "faithful representation."
I was talking about all veterans, not just the first 12. That said, yes I know the original 12 are faithful representations of their game counterparts, but I mean to give them the same treatment Bayonetta, Pac-man, Village, and Inkling get, where they cram in as much from the source material as humanely possible. In that regard, be it the original 12 or other veterans, they could all be reworked. Like, you could give Kirby more copy abilities represented in his normal moves or give Samus her her different upgrades for different attacks like Megaman has different upgrades for different attacks
 

Omega Tyrant

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Well, even in terms of being a VERY poor character, the big-heavy archetype is just downright fun for many people, regardless of tourney viability.

Had Ganondorf had a technical-zoner esque template like Zelda or Samus, I'd imagine he'd have quite a smaller fanbase.

Which is also why I believe someone like Pichu doesn't have as much fan outcry.
Just being a big heavy doesn't make a character popular though. Bowser in Melee was just as much a mighty glacier as Brawl Ganon was, yet the former wasn't remotely popular, and Bowser in Brawl wasn't popular either despite being better. Then Charizard in Smash 4 is another big heavy a lot better than Ganon, and a famously popular pokemon to boot, yet finding another Zard player was an extreme rarity, while players who at least pocketed Ganon for fun were a dime a dozen.
 
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Will

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I think Smash Ultimate with its engine/mechanics (with the air-dodging and new omega stages) is more competitively focused, but what surrounds is still more casual than competitive. But these are just observations, we won't really know until December 7th. :p
 
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CaptainAmerica

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The problem with that is it would require creating four unique newcomers, for a character most casuals would just view as one (failing to appreciate how much work went into them), plus all the extra work needed to get their "transformation" working and trying to balance them so players might actually try them all together instead of just playing the one they like most. Instead of that, you could have a single Zelda newcomer that just takes the work of one character and then three other separate newcomers from other series. That's the big problem with transformation characters, and while something like Majora's Mask Link using each of his transformation masks would be really neat on paper, it's very impractical from a developmental standpoint. I extremely doubt we will ever see a character like Pokemon Trainer again because Sakurai witnessed firsthand how much of a development sink it was trying to get the idea to work, and if this Smash's wasn't intentionally bringing back literally everyone as its top priority, I don't think we would have seen Pokemon Trainer again even if the Switch could handle transformations.
Don’t get me wrong, I doubt that would happen. I was actually envisioning somethig where each champion came out for a different special move, so it’d really be only one moveset, just the character model would switch for certain moves.

I’d also thought that they might even be able to share an entire kit - at least three of them. If the models were scaled well, it could be fun to have them all be alts of each other, but that wouldn’t work for Daruk.

It’s just that the champions are not like Fi/Ghirahim/Groose in that their characters have vastly different roles. All four are pretty well interchangeable storywise, and it would be a disservice to promote one over the others.

Ah, I can dream...maybe if they were (semi)clones for DLC...
 

Lady Byakugan

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The Champions are bland and boring, it's too be expected when BOTW largley ignored story and character development, since it needed to do so for the sake of an open world. There are still many better options for newcomers.
 
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RetroMetalSonic

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Did you guys see this?
It looks incredible.


It's cool to think that in some months we will have awesome videos like this one, but about Ridley lol.
Holy moly, those Peach plays are crazy good... I love watching videos like this. The only thing I dislike is that they remind me of how trash I am at the game. :laugh:

But yeah, I can't wait to see the Inkling and Ridley montages.
 
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CodakTheWarrior

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I did a challenge earlier, and asked everyone to do 12 Newcomers. I doubt that’s the reason, but anywho.

12 would be the lowest number of newcomers we’ve ever gotten. It’s tempering expectations while still trying to remain optimistic. I mean, it is a new Smash after all. Everyone coming back probably did take quite a bit of time though.

I don’t think 12 is too many to expect. I think 15 is, but I also think 8 is too low. How many are you expecting??? Keep in mind when I say 12 that includes Inkling, Daisy, and Ridley, so there’d only be 9 more characters to be revealed. Also, DLC is on the table as well, so that could introduce more.
While I do think the newcomer count will reach 12 and beyond with DLC, I think beyond 5 unique, non-echo newcomers is setting expectations too high, considering how little time we have until release. At least, this is how I'm viewing it to avoid dissapointment.
 

Starbound

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12 character thing:

1. Inkling
2. Ridley
3. King K. Rool
4. Paper Mario
5. Chorus Kids
6. Skull Kid
7. Banjo-Kazooie
8. Simon Belmont

9. Dixie Kong
10. Octoling

11. Daisy
12. Dark Samus

10 stages:

1. PokeFloats
2. Fountain of Dreams
3. Bowser's Castle
4. Duma's Castle
5. Spiral Mountain
6. Wrestling Ring
7. [NAME REDACTED]
8. Dracula's Castle
9. Snipperclips
10. Gangplank Galleon

10 PokeBalls:

1. Lycanroc [Accelrock]
2. Tapu Lele [Psychic Terrain]
3. Rayquaza [Dragon Ascent]
4. Chesnaught [Spiky Shield]
5. Victreebel [Swallow]
6. Magearna [Fleur Cannon]
7. Mimikyu [Substitute]
8. Drifblim [Ominous Wind]
9. Alolan Marowak [Bonemerang]
10. Magneton [Tri Attack]
 

Idon

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Just being a big heavy doesn't make a character popular though. Bowser in Melee was just as much a mighty glacier as Brawl Ganon was, yet the former wasn't remotely popular. and Bowser in Brawl wasn't popular either despite being better. Then Charizard in Smash 4 is another big heavy a lot better than Ganon, and a famously popular pokemon to boot, yet finding another Zard player was an extreme rarity, while players who at least pocketed Ganon for fun were a dime a dozen.
That's because those characters offer a different appeal.
While they are both big and slow, they're also much more beast-like and rely on their animalistic traits like wings, claws, shells, fire-breath, etc.
On top of that, those traits add a bit of complexity that a simple humanoid wouldn't have like triple jumping or sliding across the stage while Ganondorf relies pretty much solely on his martial arts.

I'd say it's like comparing someone like Kuma the bear to Gigas the giant Goliath-build bruiser, both from Tekken.
Both big, both slow, Entirely separate reasons to like them.

Throughout fighting games, there has been the recurring trend people want the satisfaction of landing a single BIG hit on an enemy with no complexity.

Ganondorf fulfills that archetype, on top of Smash's already simple-ish control schemes, a person who has never picked up Ganondorf can understand how to play him.

So he's fun, he's simple, he hits hard. Characters like Zangief, Potemkin, King, whatever. If you're a big buff guy that can delete a guy's lifebar in 3 hits, you're going to be a fan-favorite and a pocket character to many.
 
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R.O.B.B.E.D

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The Champions are bland and boring, it's too be expected when BOTW largley ignored story and character development, since it needed to do so for the sake of an open world. There are still many better options for newcomers.
The Champions are representatives of races that have been fundamentally important to the world of the Zelda games. Representatives of the Zora, Goron, Gerudo, and Rito have a place in Nintendo history for building Zelda's world and therefore have a place in Smash. The Champions are just the perfect choices.
 
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CJ Falcon

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I did a challenge earlier, and asked everyone to do 12 Newcomers. I doubt that’s the reason, but anywho.

12 would be the lowest number of newcomers we’ve ever gotten. It’s tempering expectations while still trying to remain optimistic. I mean, it is a new Smash after all. Everyone coming back probably did take quite a bit of time though.

I don’t think 12 is too many to expect. I think 15 is, but I also think 8 is too low. How many are you expecting??? Keep in mind when I say 12 that includes Inkling, Daisy, and Ridley, so there’d only be 9 more characters to be revealed. Also, DLC is on the table as well, so that could introduce more.
I'm honestly expecting around 5 more including whatever clones there may be. That is, before launch at least. I can't claim to know the precise meaning behind Sakurai's wording when he said he didn't want us to expect much in terms of new fighters, but I have a hunch that he wants our expectations to be quite low.
 
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Shyy_Guy595

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Zoroark was also cool and edgy.

Let's be reminded that GF usually puts the 'mon they tend to push within a Gen in Smash; Lucario and Greninja should tell us this.

In my eyes, the situation favors literally every other 'mon but Decidueye, as they were immediately pushed.
 

Shyy_Guy595

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The Champions are representatives of races that have been fundamentally important to the world of the Zelda games. Representatives of the Zora, Goron, Gerudo, and Rito have a place in Nintendo history for building Zelda's world and therefore have a place in Smash. The Champions are just the perfect choices.
The only Champion who might be outshined by a member of their race is Revali, as I'm sure Medli offers great competition in terms of popularity.
 
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Sharkarat

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We already have a gerudo in smash, so representing zelda races is not a point in Urbosa's favor
 

Omega Tyrant

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That's because those characters offer a different appeal.
While they are both big and slow, they're also much more beast-like and rely on their animalistic traits like wings, claws, shells, fire-breath, etc.
On top of that, those traits add a bit of complexity that a simple humanoid wouldn't have like triple jumping or sliding across the stage while Ganondorf relies pretty much solely on his martial arts.

I'd say it's like comparing someone like Kuma the bear to Gigas the giant Goliath-build bruiser, both from Tekken.
Both big, both slow, Entirely separate reasons to like them.

Throughout fighting games, there has been the recurring trend people want the satisfaction of landing a single BIG hit on an enemy with no complexity.

Ganondorf fulfills that archetype, on top of Smash's already simple-ish control schemes, a person who has never picked up Ganondorf can understand how to play him.

So he's fun, he's simple, he hits hard. Characters like Zangief, Potemkin, King, whatever. If you're a big buff guy that can delete a guy's lifebar in 3 hits, you're going to be a fan-favorite and a pocket character to many.
Bowser was certainly not anymore complex than Ganondorf, he too was very simple (if anything he was more simple than Ganon) and could kill you in a few hits, with moves that had power on par with Ganon's (even having a suicide move from Brawl-onward, one of Ganon's big appeals from Brawl-onward), yet didn't become popular until Smash 4 gave him some tremendous buffs. Zard also isn't complex either, and has some big flashy very hard-hitting moves, alongside some actual movement speed and a good recovery to ensure being offstage isn't death, yet for both legitimate competitive and fun play his playerbase is barren.
 
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Sharkarat

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I can't help but feel that Ganondorf is a rather exceptional Gerudo.
Just pointing out that the argument of repping zelda races works better for the other three champions.
 
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Idon

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Bowser was certainly not anymore complex than Ganondorf, he too was very simple (if anything he was more simple than Ganon) and could kill you in a few hits, with moves that had power on par with Ganon's (even having a suicide move from Brawl-onward, one of Ganon's big appeals from Brawl-onward), yet didn't become popular until Smash 4 gave him some tremendous buffs. Zard also isn't complex either, and has big flashy very hard-hitting moves, alongside some actual movement speed and a good recovery to ensure being offstage isn't death, yet for both legitimate competitive and fun play his playerbase is barren.
Again, different appeals.

They could have the exact same moveset disguised as someone else, but the fact is, people want to play as big burly men who punch and grab things and they'll gravitate towards the big burly punch-men.
 

Omega Tyrant

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Again, different appeals.

They could have the exact same moveset disguised as someone else, but the fact is, people want to play as big burly men who punch and grab things and they'll gravitate towards the big burly punch-men.
And Bowser was also "big burly man who punched and grab things", it's that Smash Ganondorf had a moveset and overall character design that many people found fun in spite of him being a bad character and "nonfaithful", just being a big mighty glacier isn't the appeal itself.
 
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Shyy_Guy595

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Giga Bowser is iconic to Smash at this point and most people think the new FS of his is the best.

I don't see the point in this little argument.
 

Pyra

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I tried asking a Twitter bot about newcomers. She wasn't much help.

Oh, finally Zo changed its profile picture. The previous one was... stupid

Giga Bowser is iconic to Smash at this point and most people think the new FS of his is the best.

I don't see the point in this little argument.
I think healthy discussion is fine tbh. I'm not participating so I'm ignoring it and it doesn't really affect me. Let them talk :p
 
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Lady Byakugan

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The Champions are representatives of races that have been fundamentally important to the world of the Zelda games. Representatives of the Zora, Goron, Gerudo, and Rito have a place in Nintendo history for building Zelda's world and therefore have a place in Smash. The Champions are just the perfect choices.
Gerudo = Ganon

If you want a Goron and Zora rep, Young Link with his masks would fit that role better than an underdeveloped nobody considering Goron Link and Zora Link have potential for a complete moveset with their rolling, electricity, and fin boomerangs, whereas the goron and zora champions have like 1 or 2 known skills.
 

Idon

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And Bowser was also "big burly man who punched and grab things", it's that Smash Ganondorf had a moveset and overall character design that many people found fun in spite of him being a bad character and "nonfaithful", just being a big mighty glacier isn't the appeal itself.
But Bowser actually wasn't a bruiser in the same way as Ganondorf
His claws, and shell take the spotlight for the majority of his moves as opposed to Ganondorf where it is his punches and kicks.
In fact, the only fisticuffs Brawl and 4 Bowser ever engages in is his ftilt and technically his Side B.

It's not just being a "mighty glacier" that is the appeal. It's the fact that he's a giant man that hits hard with his fist.
That will always be popular, no matter what they look like.
Again, comparing Kuma, a giant bear that swipes at you, to Gigas, a giant man that punches you.
They are two completely different characters, with two completely different fans.

Giga Bowser is iconic to Smash at this point and most people think the new FS of his is the best.

I don't see the point in this little argument.
I'm arguing that anyone could've fulfilled the role that Ganondorf had, regardless of their aesthetic appearance and that tourney viability has never influenced a character's popularity.

Bowser's just an example that was brought up.
 
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SonicMario

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Who's ready for the next innovation of Smash control that will totally succeed the Gamecube controller as the favored way to play Smash...

Labo controls :V
 

Jak_spoon

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12 character thing:

1. Inkling
2. Ridley
3. King K. Rool
4. Paper Mario
5. Chorus Kids
6. Skull Kid
7. Banjo-Kazooie
8. Simon Belmont

9. Dixie Kong
10. Octoling

11. Daisy
12. Dark Samus

10 stages:

1. PokeFloats
2. Fountain of Dreams
3. Bowser's Castle
4. Duma's Castle
5. Spiral Mountain
6. Wrestling Ring
7. [NAME REDACTED]
8. Dracula's Castle
9. Snipperclips
10. Gangplank Galleon

10 PokeBalls:

1. Lycanroc [Accelrock]
2. Tapu Lele [Psychic Terrain]
3. Rayquaza [Dragon Ascent]
4. Chesnaught [Spiky Shield]
5. Victreebel [Swallow]
6. Magearna [Fleur Cannon]
7. Mimikyu [Substitute]
8. Drifblim [Ominous Wind]
9. Alolan Marowak [Bonemerang]
10. Magneton [Tri Attack]
I would give my left nutt for that roster. I wouldn’t even complain that Isaac isn’t in it.
 

Idon

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*sigh* Can people stop forgetting about Yoshi? It's getting tiring!!
With you around, I don't think I'll ever be able to.

Or forget about Boshi, a character I've literally never heard of until you brought him up.
 

Omega Tyrant

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But Bowser actually wasn't a bruiser in the same way as Ganondorf
His claws, and shell take the spotlight for the majority of his moves as opposed to Ganondorf where it is his punches and kicks.
In fact, the only fisticuffs Brawl and 4 Bowser ever engages in is his ftilt and technically his Side B.

It's not just being a "mighty glacier" that is the appeal. It's the fact that he's a giant man that hits hard with his fist.
That will always be popular, no matter what they look like.
Again, comparing Kuma, a giant bear that swipes at you, to Gigas, a giant man that punches you.
They are two completely different characters, with two completely different fans.



I'm arguing that anyone could've fulfilled the role that Ganondorf had, regardless of their aesthetic appearance and that tourney viability has never influenced a character's popularity.

Bowser's just an example that was brought up.
The difference between a claw swipe and a punch is a minor aesthetic difference, who is seriously playing Ganon but not Bowser because the former closes his fist on his forward aerial? And Melee/Brawl Bowser's shell moves and headbutts are providing the same big shocking hits, the appendage used does not matter, and did not make Bowser any less of the big mighty glacier he was alongside Ganon. Whether it's a punch or a kick or whatever appendage doesn't matter, and just a general role itself doesn't lend popularity, what does matter is how the moves function and combine into each other for the overall character they make.
 

Opossum

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OpossumGuy
3DS FC
4742-4911-3431
Switch FC
SW 2859 6322 5208
Give Yoshi his Infinite Flutter Jump from Galaxy 2, Sakurai.
 
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