Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Sabrewulf238]

We have confirmation that every single Earthbound stage in Smash history is returning (Onett, Fourside, New Pork City, and Magicant) so my guess is Smash Run on this.

Where did we see Fourside? That's awesome if true, I really liked that stage.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Where did we see Fourside? That's awesome if true, I really liked that stage.

It was in the “Everyone is here!” part of the Direct, when they first showed Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings.

 

[UltimateWario]

I just have to say if you're immature enough to dislike a character's video because of a needed nerf (I do agree that she's looking a little too powerful still) you make me not want the nerf to happen.

It's the equal of folding your arms as a child, huffing and stomping your feet until you get your way.

Same goes for groaning when she was revealed after hearing everyone is back. Grow up. She'll be nerfed in due time.

I don’t think disliking a video has nearly the power you’re giving it. Don’t let it get to you. People have a poor impression of Bayonetta because she made the game not fun for a lot of people. It’s a sad truth but Sakurai is hopefully making that not the case. If you don’t want her nerfed just to spite people, they’ll just hate her more.

 

[DrRiceBoy]

Speaking of stages, really happy that Saffron City is back. That was my personal favorite when I was younger. Also the stage hazards seemed to be turned off? That was kind of interesting. Wonder if it's an actual mechanic now; that'd be dope. Down for more legal stages.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

As I said earlier, it seems Echo Fighters use identical attack animations to their original, but have property changes (Tipper vs Consistent blade as an example) as well as unique idle animations and taunts. While we haven't seen Daisy next to Peach in depth in this game, I think it's safe to assume based on how we know Lucina and Dark Pit share identical animations to Marth and Pit that Daisy will be just like that with Peach but she will bear a minor difference of some kind. The other clones have different attack animations somewhere in their moveset even if that doesn't mean all of their moves are unique from their original.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I can understand if this is all we get BUT

1. Why introduce the concept of "echo fighter" then legit ONLY show daisy and have only 3 echos? That seems weird

2. Bill said "additional characters" during the treehouse so that legit makes me think were getting at least 2 more

I feel like Octoling is kind of a given and I'd be surprised if it didn't happen, and one more would be neat, we don't need more than 5 though lol

Nope.

That said, Shadow could work as an Echo Fighter, but he needs Chaos aesthetics to many of his moves. Otherwise it wouldn't fit.

Wait was he not seen? I feel like I remember people talking about it. Regardless though I think Shadow could work since Sonic's moveset is already kinda generic and in the sonic games he normally plays exactly like sonic, just give him a new idle, running animation, taunts and victory animations and he'd be fine imo. It helps that Knuckles is an assist too, maybe they really did do it...

 

[UltimateWario]

I wonder if the remastered stages will look as good as those ones PM did for the 64 stages, they really kicked ass on those and put that Wii power to work. Frigate Orpheon looks awesome and is making me hype for Prime 4.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wait was he not seen? I feel like I remember people talking about it. Regardless though I think Shadow could work since Sonic's moveset is already kinda generic and in the sonic games he normally plays exactly like sonic, just give him a new idle, running animation, taunts and victory animations and he'd be fine imo. It helps that Knuckles is an assist too, maybe they really did do it...

It's possible.

Also, maybe they could remove the Metal Fighters and make Metal Mario one? I mean, he was a separate character at one point. Ironically this couldn't work for Giant DK... since we already have DK and clearly huge fighters are impossible as shown by Ridley being way downsized.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So... question.

They showed a metric **** ton of returning stages but...

How many new stages will there be? We have like what, three confirmed?

New Donk City, Great Plateau Tower and Moray Tower?

 

[RandomAce]

Where did we see Fourside? That's awesome if true, I really liked that stage.

It appeared during the character trailers of the initial direct.

To be fair, there's still more hope for more Zelda characters! Honestly though I personally like the current Zelda as is. Like you said, there's a lot of representation for different games. Link for BotW, Zelda for ALBW, Toon Link for WW and its sequels, and Ganon/Sheik/Young Link for the N64 games. Lots of diversity there in terms of representation. Also I'd rather them be in the game than not. Each and every single character has a fanbase and it would sadden me if mains of those characters didn't get to play their favorites. I think Sakurai was really aiming for that-- to make every Smash fan happy.

I can see that and I’m happy for those that want Young Link back, but if anything I would’ve considered Young Link and Echo fighter of Toon Link or vise verse.

You see, Young Link is a pretty outdated concept since Toon Link’s whole purpose was to be replace Young Link as a younger version of Link. Toon Link obviously plays similar to Link but is a lot more faster and can be more realized as a zoner. The thing is, Young Link does just that. He is a younger version of Link that is a lot faster and can a be more realized as zoner. This, plus that fact that both characters have very similar move sets is why I think Young Link should be considered an echo character (or Toon Link) since they both fill the same exact role and purpose along side a very similar move set.

 

[MrReyes96]

The return of Pokémon trainer kind of makes me wish they had done the same with greninja as they did charizard
Chespin, Braixen, Greninja

 

[DrRiceBoy]

I wonder if the remastered stages will look as good as those ones PM did for the 64 stages, they really kicked *** on those and put that Wii power to work. Frigate Orpheon looks awesome and is making me hype for Prime 4.

So far it's looking fantastic. Positive that it'd look better than PM. Kongo Jungle and Saffron City look goddamn amazing.

 

[Awakining]

I just have to say if you're immature enough to dislike a character's video because of a needed nerf (I do agree that she's looking a little too powerful still) you make me not want the nerf to happen.

It's the equal of folding your arms as a child, huffing and stomping your feet until you get your way.

Same goes for groaning when she was revealed after hearing everyone is back. Grow up. She'll be nerfed in due time.

Disliking a video is one of the quickest and easiest ways for an individual to let the creators know that they think something is wrong. By telling people not to send their feedback in such a manner, you're forcing the people who have no other way of making their voices heard to either take a gamble and pray that their minds will be read or take the blow of an issue they could have changed.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Young Link is confirmed a different moveset from Toon Link. Besides that, they have very different proportions and there's no way it would've worked out as an Echo Fighter anyway.

Young Link, like Toon Link, are just clones. Also, maybe this suggests that Toon Link wasn't really a replacement of Young Link specifically so much as a different character who shared the same role.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Disliking a video is one of the quickest and easiest ways for an individual to let the creators know that they think something is wrong. By telling people not to send their feedback in such a manner, you're forcing the people who have no other way of making their voices heard to either take a gamble and pray that their minds will be read or take the blow of an issue they could have changed.

The issue is that the method isn't specific.

Do people dislike Bayonetta as a character? As an overpowered character? What?

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Well, 1:.999 ratio of differences.

My point is Their differences are purely in some moves having changed properties as opposed to clones who have other elements slightly adjusted.

Lucina is pretty significantly different from Marth in terms of hitbox data, I think the distinction you're looking for is that all the animations are the same.

 

[N3ON]

I still think Alph could easily be an "Echo Character" but I guess I'm wrong.

 

[Onua]

In b4 this is actually all we get and no new characters are added.

 

[UltimateWario]

So “is Ridley too big” is being replaced by “what costitutes an echo fighter” and “is it a port”. Okay. I can live with that.

 

[RustyRemains]

So... question.

They showed a metric **** ton of returning stages but...

How many new stages will there be? We have like what, three confirmed?

New Donk City, Great Plateau Tower and Moray Tower?

I'm pretty sure Gamexplain did a few videos confirming at least 75 stages shown off in screenshots, videos etc.

Edit: Whoops, misread your post on my phone, keeping it anyways in case anyone is scrolling past

 

[N3ON]

So... question.

They showed a metric **** ton of returning stages but...

How many new stages will there be? We have like what, three confirmed?

New Donk City, Great Plateau Tower and Moray Tower?

Yep that's it so far. Seems evident that old stuff will far outweigh new stuff in this game.

But at least the eventual DLC will be primarily if not entirely new.

 

[Skyblade12]

In b4 this is actually all we get and no new characters are added.

Then what was that mech toy with a gun Sakurai bought for?

I must have missed that part of Ridley's move set.

 

[RandomAce]

Young Link is confirmed a different moveset from Toon Link. Besides that, they have very different proportions and there's no way it would've worked out as an Echo Fighter anyway.

Young Link, like Toon Link, are just clones. Also, maybe this suggests that Toon Link wasn't really a replacement of Young Link specifically so much as a different character who shared the same role.

Really? Well okay then. But if Lucina, Dark Pit, and Daisy are called Echo Fighters, then what are characters like Doctor Mario, and Young Link, and Pichu going to be called?

Either way, I still wish we got another character that isn’t an incarnation of the main trio.

 

[Darkraid]

I'm pretty sure Gamexplain did a few videos confirming at least 75 stages shown off in screenshots, videos etc.

75??? wow that's crazy stuff.

I'm still bummed about Pokemon Trainer. I wanted Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard to be separated characters. Not together.

 

[UpgradeX]

Happy to see everyone return. I always hate how fighting games drop characters.

 

[Roberk]

I just have to say if you're immature enough to dislike a character's video because of a needed nerf (I do agree that she's looking a little too powerful still) you make me not want the nerf to happen.

It's the equal of folding your arms as a child, huffing and stomping your feet until you get your way.

Same goes for groaning when she was revealed after hearing everyone is back. Grow up. She'll be nerfed in due time.

I view it as empirically showing your... dislike... of the character/topic at hand. People saw that Bayo wasn't overall changed for the better. They showed their disliking of that. Sure, it's not the most specific way to represent the community's stance on something, there are many factors that people could "dislike", but it's one of the easiest ways to actually gather some data, so people use ratings to show their opinions.

 

[DLEAF]

Anyone else notice that Battlefield/Omega stages are now identical? Like, completely identical, the only difference being aesthetic? They all have the same shape and everything?

I hope we get more tournament legal stages.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The issue is that the method isn't specific.

Do people dislike Bayonetta as a character? As an overpowered character? What?

Whoomp. There it is.

This is why this is such a ****ty method of doing it. It doesn't necessarily come across as constructive or telling Sakurai to balance her more. It can come across as ''We just don't plain want her in the game."

There are FAR more constructive ways to get the point across to Sakurai and we saw one today with how Leo was able to body pretty much every character with her. It made Ridley the hype newcomer look like a fool.

Gameplay videos and content like that get the point across. Throwing a dislike or groanining in your reaction video at her? They do not.

 

[RustyRemains]

75??? wow that's crazy stuff.

I'm still bummed about Pokemon Trainer. I wanted Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard to be separated characters. Not together.

I understand in a way, but at the same time think about how cool it is that you can just switch between characters is one of them isn't working out against a certain opponent, and all you lose is 1 special attack for each

 

[KingIceSonic]

Well, 1:.999 ratio of differences.

My point is Their differences are purely in some moves having changed properties as opposed to clones who have other elements slightly adjusted.

To be fair Lucina feels like a completely different character even though she is just slightly adjusted. The fact that she doesn't have a tipper makes her feel different from Marth. Marth's entire gimick is his tipper, take that away and you get a character that can "feel" different.

Almost ALL of Lucina's damage numbers are different while Pit literally only has differences in 3 moves. Not to mention Lucina is slightly shorter and has slightly shorter range. This means that Echo fighters will vary. They can either be just complete reskins with almost no differences(Dark Pit) or they could be reskins with stats differences(Lucina)

I can Imagine Daisy having higher damage numbers but shorter float time, or something along those line.

 

[Skyblade12]

Whoomp. There it is.

This is why this is such a ****ty method of doing it. It doesn't necessarily come across as constructive or telling Sakurai to balance her more. It can come across as ''We just don't plain want her in the game."

There are FAR more constructive ways to get the point across to Sakurai and we saw one today with how Leo was able to body pretty much every character with her. It made Ridley the hype newcomer look like a fool.

Gameplay videos and content like that get the point across. Throwing a dislike or groanining in your reaction video at her? They do not.

Though, to be fair, Ridley was a brand new character being used by someone who had never played him before, while Bayonetta, while nerfed, has the same moveset, and someone very familiar with that moveset.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Really? Well okay then. But if Lucina, Dark Pit, and Daisy are called Echo Fighters, then what are characters like Doctor Mario, and Young Link, and Pichu going to be called?

Either way, I still wish we got another character that isn’t an incarnation of the main trio.

They're called clones. Ones who were retooled from another character but could not become costumes due to having too many differences.

Young Link was a clone of Link while making his skeleton/model smaller. It makes no sense to think of him like Toon Link. They're different in how they were created. Toon Link wasn't even explained directly, just that "as a clone, he shares the same moves as Link". That's it. So he likely was a different model with changed up animations. Do note that Toon Link has a lot of differences from Link in Brawl to the point that he's only similar in some regards, but has tons of different animations, a very unique character model, and quite a few different moves. Their specials, up air, down air, and a fairly small list of moves are the same. Young Link was mostly a 1:1 match to Link. Toon Link is more like a 1:3 match to Link(my ratio may be off, but the idea is there).

 

[UltimateWario]

It’s a shame Ridley never won any of the matches. I wanted to see if he had a unique win theme and to see his victories.

 

[Onua]

I wonder if dark pit will be changed slightly at all?
Maybe Sakurai will make there be more differences this time.

 

[Chandeelure]

It's weird how Pokemon Trainer is in the background and all that, but the other Pokemon come from Poke Balls in their entrance animations and don't have trainers.

 

[UpgradeX]

It’s a shame Ridley never won any of the matches. I wanted to see if he had a unique win theme and to see his victories.

Are there any videos on Kirby Ridley?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Dark Pit and Lucina will probably be changed around a bit.

If Dark Pit goes through a new game with only the same handful of differences, we have a problem.

 

[LovinMitts]

The knockback changes are concerning in that they affect your potential followups--things that could've been true with the old KB formulas aren't anymore because everyone flies away too fast.

Also is there any confirmation on dashdancing and how airdodges interact with the ground?

 

[dezeray112]

So which of the rumored leaks had been debunked lately?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Been a long time since I've posted on smashboards to say the least... I basically dropped smash 4 entirely when my side of the customs debate lost.

This is a pretty exciting and pretty interesting reveal all around. I guess it's probably still too early to get the real detail from people at the event, but this game looks like a tuned up/more polished 4 which from my perspective is pretty good. I also really think they've tried to make this game as much as possible a thing you could play competitively "out of the box" with minimal community imposed rules. Consider...

-Customs seem obviously gone (the retooling of Palutena and Mii Fighters is clearly to accommodate this). This I guess was the best solution they had to deal with the reality that a lot of the game's quality content was pretty difficult to integrate logistically.
-Stage select happens before character select and loser's counterpick is now automatic.
-A stage hazards off toggle apparently exists.
-Sudden Death is substantially revamped into an infinitely less stupid tiebreaker.
-Moves do different damage in 1v1s which I suspect is their attempt to allow tighter balance of 1v1 in particular without impacting group play.

Like you could run an entirely viable tournament just randoming game 1 among a huge number of reasonably acceptable stages, defining a set length and stock/time settings, and otherwise going "just do what the game says to do". Being able to have a competitive ruleset that's so simple and clean does a lot to make competitive play more accessible (the more the ruleset resembles game design the less happy everyone is and the fewer people want to join the community). This game could really be a huge opportunity for the competitive community, and I look forward to that.

The particulars of the gameplay seem mostly pretty thoughtful. I think the decay on dodges is actually going to be a major scrub killer; it's mostly weaker players who roll a lot anyway which just got a ton worse, and being able to effectively use dodge moves in general that have variable commitment and invincibility is going to be way, way harder than it used to be to keep yourself out of trouble (kinda like how the harsh staleness of moves in Brawl actually mostly strongly favored more advanced players who fully managed it except even more fundamental here because if affects your frame data). Power shielding coming after you block something instead of before seems like it probably makes it harder to execute but also more practical in more situations to utilize as well. On the other side, they apparently made most aerials have less landing lag and provided a quick input for easy SH aerials which is going to make attacking in a non-suicidal way a lot easier. It's almost like they looked at smash 4 and liked the total accessibility level but thought it was relatively too hard to do offense and too easy to do defense for newer players so they wanted to flip it so offense would be more available to lower level players while you'd have to push yourself harder to have that solid defense. While that doesn't necessarily change how the game plays at a high level when people have mastered all the decay factors and the harder execution stuff and the spacing/movement of the new airdodges, it will almost certainly make competitive style play a lot more appealing at the entry level (entry level competitive 4 is basically just rolling over and over).

I'm not super hot and bothered by the particulars of characters since those details will probably change a lot before release and honestly which characters are in the game or are good/bad isn't really important to the game as a whole anyway (unless you have a broken character I suppose), but I do see some intrigue. My day -177 from only watching video impressions are probably as worthless as they sound, but man, Ridley looks awesome which is a rare first impression for a big in any fighter, and while I think it was probably extremely inaccurate to say Pokemon Trainer players will be able to just pick a main and stick with it, the potential of that character looks extreme in this form. What little we saw of Zelda showed they at least tried to improve her horrible animations on everything that made her useless in every previous smash game which is more encouragement that maybe they have a careful eye on how these games have played out before, but then again, they don't seem to have done Samus a similar favor so I guess we can only ask for so much. It looks like they directly prevent Ice Climbers stupidity by having Nana "celebrate" when Popo does a throw so that's wonderful news for the health of the game (make no mistake, Ice Climbers did more to kill Brawl than Meta Knight). I can swear I saw some kind of meter on Pichu too which makes me wonder if Pichu now has a gimmick and is no longer just designed to be a worse Pikachu. I can't really guess where any of this sort of stuff goes, but what we've seen suggests it will be extremely fun to explore when the game drops!