Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Murlough]

A friend of mine said that he wants 2B in Smash. I think she actually could fit pretty well tbh.


Smash needs more waifus anyway

 

[Fenriraga]

I am a simple man with simple wants [or needs, depending];

• Simon Belmont.
• Overhauls, minor or major, of certain characters. The Zelda ones need it badly.
• A stage based on Mount Volbono.
• And...maybe some playable indies?

Third parties of any calibur are not what I would call "Simple" wants. Even though your picks are in line with my own. :V

I think we all really want some decent overhauls for the characters that have struggled tbe past few games, though.

 

[monadoboy]

I’m not good at proposing topics of discussion here. Perhaps they aren’t interesting enough. But here’s something for everyone.

Let’s say every Smash 4 character gets an alt costume while characters, like Wii Fit Trainer or Olimar, gets a second one on top of the previous alt costume they had (including Bowser Jr). What alt costumes would characters get?

Here’s mine:

Spoiler

1. Mario: Referee Mario
2. Luigi: Mr L
3. Peach: Sporty Peach
4. Bowser: Wedding Bowser
5. Rosalina: Cosmic Spirit
6. Dr. Mario: Delfino Doctor Mario on Vacation
7. Bowser Jr: Sunshine Bowser Jr
8. Yoshi: Yarn Yoshi
9. Wario: Showman Wario
10. Link: Barbaric Armor Link
11. Zelda: Hooded Zelda
12. Shiek: Yuga Clan Shiek
13. Toon Link: Outset Link
14. Ganondorf: Phantom Ganondorf
15. Samus: Federation Marine
16. Zero Suit Samus: Military Outfit
17. Kirby: Clay Kirby
18. King Dedede: Masked Dedede
19. Meta-Knight: Galacta Knight
20. Fox: James McCloud
21. Falco: Star fox Assault Faldo
22. Pikachu: Masked Wrestler Pikachu
23. Lucario: Korrina Outfit
24. Charizard: Poke Ride Charizard
25. Jigglypuff: Wigglytuff
26. Greninja: Ash-Greninja
27. Mewtwo: Shadow Mewtwo
28. Ness: Pajamas
29. Lucas: Masked Swordsman Lucas
30. Donkey Kong: Boxer Kong
31. Diddy Kong: Shades and Guitar Diddy Kong
32. Pit: Classic Pit
33. Palutena: Psuedo-palutena
34. Dark Pit: Classic Dark Pit
35. Marth: Sigurd Outfit
36. Ike: Legendary Ike
37. Robin: Hooded Robin
38. Lucina: Masked Lucina
39. Roy: Eliwood Outfit
40. Corrin: Summer and New Year Corrin (FEH)
41. Captain Falcon: Helmetless Falcon
42. Olimar: Louie
43. Villager: New Leaf Villager
44. WFT: Wii Fit U Trainer
45. Duck Hunt: 8-Bit Outfit
46. MGW: Ms. Game and Watch
47. Shulk: M100 Shulk
48. ROB: Ancient Minister
49. Little Mac: Doc’s Uniform
50. Sonic: Classic Sonic
51. Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
52. Mega Man: Rush Adapater Mega Man
53. Ryu: Evil Ryu
54. Cloud: Kingdom Hearts Cloud
55. Bayonetta: Nude Bayonetta

Man, some of those were a stretch.

Some are great, but I'd say Makna Shulk over any other armor and Great Lord Lucina since Ike would get his promoted class. Military ZSS, Vanguard Ike and Roy getting his dad's things would be hype.
And some would be pushing the rating too much, like Summer Corrin and Bayo.

Costumes in general are underused in Smash, and it's a terrible waste. Characters like Shulk and BOTW Link could easily have 8 alternate costumes instead of recolors. Would be awesome if BOTW Link had something like: Champion tunic, Green tunic, Sheikah costume, Ancient set, Barbarian Armor, Desert Voe/Vai set, Dark tunic set, and Rex's Salvager armor for a crossover inside a crossover. I'd even dare buy DLC costumes for characters that aren't Miis.

 

[Knight Dude]

Arle Nadja was apparently requested in Japan for Super Smash Bros and Kirby had his own Puyo Puyo game. That's why I brought up Puyo Puyo in there.

I see, thanks for letting me know.

Also, I forgot which puzzle game the Kirby one was based on. I only remember Kirby being a thug.

 

[Chiroz]

You tell me that the Champions are bound to become irrelevant because they're one-shot characters, but then you tell me that I should be supporting Skull Kid and Midna because they're more unique.

Am I missing something here?

I mean, not to be mean, but what you're missing in this case is how to follow the conversation. You said: "I support them because they are more unique" to which I answered, "then why don't you support all these other unique chars?". I didn't start out with: "Support Skull Kid and Midna!".

Also you might be missing the fact that Skull Kid and Midna have actually mantained a fairly high following/fan base, as opposed to many other one shot chars like say Ghirahim, Fi, Link's Cap and whatnot. If the Champions are still being requested as highly as Midna in 15 years, I think they might actually deserve some consideration.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I mean, not to be mean, but what you're missing in this case is how to follow the conversation. You said: "I support them because they are more unique" to which I answered, "then why don't you support all these other unique chars?". I didn't start out with: "Support Skull Kid and Midna!".

Also you might be missing the fact that Skull Kid and Midna have actually mantained a fairly high following/fan base, as opposed to many other one shot chars like say Ghirahim, Fi, Link's Cap and whatnot. If the Champions are still being requested as highly as Midna in 15 years, I think they might actually deserve some consideration.

Skull Kid's fanbase is much larger. Part of it is that most people who grew up in 2000, are, like me, in their twenties. They've spread their cult following through the clothes they get at Spencer's and the art/memes they've spread throughout the internet.

We've been kind of an influence, because we've known it longer. Majora's Mask is one of the most iconic Zelda games, which made Majora's Mask one of the most iconic symbols, which logically made Skull Kid one of the most iconic villains.

When it comes to Zelda villains, Skull Kid is thought of, second only to Ganondorf.

 

[Zeallyx]

A friend of mine said that he wants 2B in Smash. I think she actually could fit pretty well tbh.


Smash needs more waifus anyway

It might be meant 2B

 

[PsySmasher]

Honestly, the representation of Zelda in Smash is kind of underwhelming in my opinion. Since Sakurai tends to stray away from one-shot characters, there’s plently of characters (Midna, Skull Kid, Ghirahim etc.) with unique personalities and movesets that’re overlooked. Although there are plenty recurring characters (Impa, Toon Zelda/Tetra, Ganon etc.) that would make interesting additions, I wish that this pattern would be broken (although I accept why it might not be).

The same applies with Kirby, except almost all of the recurring, main characters (sans Bandanna Dee) have been in the roster since Brawl.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Panel de Pon/Tetris Attack should be enough though right? Cause Puyo Puyo is owned by Sega, so it'd be weird to get third party elements to implement them to a first party character.

I personally want to see both.

Basically the logic here is the classic SEGA vs. Nintendo rivalry, albeit from a completely different angle. It's obvious that was the intention of Panel de Pon in particular. It was released a year after the famous Puyo Puyo 2 hit arcades, and it motivated companies to create their own equivalent. Panel de Pon borrows a lot of elements from Puyo Puyo, right to the fact it even mimics the "Nazo Puyo" side of the Puyo Puyo series, but the key difference is the gameplay. Notably you don't control falling blocks of any type, instead you swap the blocks to pull off chains as they rise up.

Even Lip herself was based on Arle to small extent. For example, her description describes her as a "bit of a tomboy", which is a characteristic that Arle also has. I think she also uses the "bokukko" speech pattern, but I'll have to double check.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, the representation of Zelda in Smash is kind of underwhelming in my opinion. Since Sakurai tends to stray away from one-shot characters, there’s plently of characters (Midna, Skull Kid, Ghirahim etc.) with unique personalities and movesets that’re overlooked. Although there are plenty recurring characters (Impa, Toon Zelda/Tetra, Ganon etc.) that would make interesting additions, I wish that this pattern would be broken (although I accept why it might not be).

Most people agree that a Zelda newcomer would be fantastic, but none of us can seem to understand what Sakurai is looking for. He rejected Skull Kid and Tingle three times, despite the two being consistently iconic. He turned down Midna twice, even though she was popular and Twilight Princess sold incredibly well. Impa is a recurring character with obvious moveset potential, but Sakurai couldn't even be bothered to add her even when she made two major appearances in OoT3D and SS the year before he decided the roster.

At this point, fans are tired of guessing what Sakurai wants. Most have lost the passion to support a Zelda character, and those who haven't can't seem to agree who would be the most likely character to get in.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I just started Bayonetta again and forgot about the Eggman reference.

Now I want Eggman to be in Smash so Bayonetta can actually meet Eggman.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think Eggman would be my first choice for a 3rd Party addition for an existing guest franchise.

 

[Hinata]

I just started Bayonetta again and forgot about the Eggman reference.

Now I want Eggman to be in Smash so Bayonetta can actually meet Eggman.

Did you know that Kamiya said the Eggman reference wasn't intentional? When he decided on the name, he had completely forgot there was already a character named Eggman.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Did you know that Kamiya said the Eggman reference wasn't intentional? When he decided on the name, he had completely forgot there was already a character named Eggman.

Which would make for a good reaction in a reveal trailer for him.

''Wait. There actually is another Eggman?" type of thing.

 

[Jak_spoon]

Ike is featured in 2 games. Marth is featured across 4 games. Roy and Corrin were added as promotions since they were main characters of their games. Robin was the player avatar in Awakening and Lucina was easy to implement and massively popular and important to Awakening's plot.

Even though the ones other than Marth and Ike are only in "one game" (Corrin's in three games in a way) they are main characters of the games that are being featured and that's just not comparable to Zelda games. LoZ is consistently the triforce wielders Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Kind of like Mario, Peach, and Bowser. There might have a few side villains in some games and fan-favorite side-quests but Zelda games as a whole focus on and promote the main 3. This is the difference between FE "one-shots" and Zelda "one-shots", FE characters have a full game's worth of story, character development, and combat for movesets while Zelda characters other than the triforce wielders just aren't as comparably important. Link does the fighting, Link uses the items, and Zelda/Ganondorf get in for being the returning damsel in distress/villain. A Zelda newcomer would have to be just as about as important as Link/Zelda/Ganondorf and that's just not possible. The champions are close, but it's still a stretch.

Just having more reps added isn't the problem. Zelda as a series focuses on the adventures of Link saving Zelda and defeating Ganondorf. FE as a series revolves around a cast of many developed characters for each installment. Zelda newcomers have diminishing returns because at their core they are not as important as the main characters while each FE rep has been a main character.

No. You my friend have been drinking the Smashboards Kool-aid for far too long.

First off, if the Zelda series is really supposed to be represented by the three triforce wielders then why aren't they as diverse, original, and faithful as Kirby, Metaknight, and Dedede are to the Kirby series?

Yes, the Zelda series should be treated on par with the Mario series where they have a similar core cast system and like Mario when a game is well received and brings a fan favorite character like Rosalina that character should be added to Smash.

This is the real difference between FE "one-shots" and Zelda "one-shots", Tingle, Skullkid, Gannon, have all been in a minimum of three games and referenced in half a dozen more. Your "massively popular" Fire Emblem characters still cant even get 2 million copies of a game sold while one game of Zelda can easily sell 4 million and even go as high as 10 million. People like Zelda better. And don't even act like Fire Emblem has great moveset potential to pull from. We all know that's rubbish. Why do you think people commonly complain about anime swordsman.

New Characters don't need to be as popular as Link. if Mario can add Rosalina and the Koopalings then Zelda should be able to add from its diverse cast too.

No matter how "rich" you think your FE stories are, games like Majoras Mask still have people talking about it, FE doesn't. Each FE addition is just a fad.

Have you seen FE fans make something like this for their characters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbMQfaG6lo8
Diminishing returns my ass.

 

[Troykv]

No matter how "rich" you think your FE stories are, games like Majoras Mask still have people talking about it, FE doesn't. Each FE addition is just a fad.

Have you seen FE fans make something like this for their characters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbMQfaG6lo8
Diminishing returns my ***.

What exactly is a "fad"? o.o

 

[Jak_spoon]

What exactly is a "fad"? o.o

Mom jeans

What exactly is a "fad"? o.o

Really?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I've been wanting Tetra in a Smash ever since (or at least not long after) I discovered and unlocked Toon Link way back in Brawl.

I can't deny her odds really aren't much better than most other major Zelda characters, though.

 

[Troykv]

Mom jeans

Really?

That sounds rude.

I would also say that while the way to select characters in Zelda and Fire Emblem is a bit different for the lack of a "Link" in the latter... I also think the Zelda characters deserve a chance if they're as meaningful to their game's experience as one of the Fire Emblem Main Characters... in some cases their value is perhaps even bigger.

In fact, this part of the reason I have never being oppose to the idea of saying Midna and Skull Kid in Smash Bros despite being technically "one-shots", they aren't just characters that you'll forget... They have meaningul existence in their universes and are loved for many people.

 

[Jak_spoon]

I've wanted Skull kid for a really long time. I thought it would be great if the entire idea behind him was that hes a prankster. like his specials would swap your enemies costume colors or like Shulk he could change stats but not his stats but other players stats to throw them off their game. Like making them lighter but with more hops so you can get a final smash attack in or heavier and stronger so you can juggle them more.

But it'll never happen.

 

[Deleted member]

I've wanted Skull kid for a really long time. I thought it would be great if the entire idea behind him was that hes a prankster.

Skull Kid would not be a bad addition. I would be fine with him.

like his specials would swap your enemies costume colors

No. That is a horrible idea.

or like Shulk he could change stats but not his stats but other players stats to throw them off their game. Like making them lighter but with more hops so you can get a final smash attack in or heavier and stronger so you can juggle them more.

Creative, but I think there are better options for Skullkid.

 

[Opossum]

And don't even act like Fire Emblem has great moveset potential to pull from. We all know that's rubbish. Why do you think people commonly complain about anime swordsman.

Because they don't know what they're talking about and don't realize the weapon itself is just an aesthetic thing, and that it's the actual moves themselves that matter. It's an opinion born of ignorance.

 

[Gumzilla]

Darn it. I was looking at the leviathan bones in BotW and I was hoping they'd have a resemblance to Lord Jabu Jabu from OoT! Unfortunately they have no similarities aside from being giant water creatures.

 

[Deleted member]

I’ve requested E3 off the past few years. My birthday is the 14th of June so it kills two birds with one stone!

Wow, your birthday is one day after mine and two days after @Yellowlord 's birthday.
Also your birthday is the same as Donald John Trump's birthday.

And don't even act like Fire Emblem has great moveset potential to pull from. We all know that's rubbish. Why do you think people commonly complain about anime swordsman.

Uh. Celica would like to have a word with you.

Also I encourage more anime characters, so anime swordsmen are fine to me.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Wait...

Maybe I read that wrong.

But I didn't just see someone say that Link, Ganon, and Zelda are not....diverse?

In no sense does that make sense.

Link is a silent protagonist known to enjoy sleeping and can be lazy, but he's courageous as ****.

Zelda is a noble leader, who has went to extremes to protect her people from Ganon. She gas been a ninja, a pirate, avid bow and arrow user, and a talented magician, as well as a talented swordmen in her own regard.

Ganon/Ganondorf is a Gerudo. A different type of race in general from Link and Zelda. He is shown to be both outright evil to just flawed. Has taken on MANY different forms depending on what the story requires. He has been a brutal hand to hand fighter, a swordsman, a magician, a trident user.

And this translates over to Smash too.

So again....how are they not...diverse?

Also they're the three important recurring people. No main line Zelda game truly passes with out some mention of Ganon even if he's not present. And the other two are the only recurring heroes who are typically up to heroics.

Soooo...

 

[Deathcarter]

No. You my friend have been drinking the Smashboards Kool-aid for far too long.

First off, if the Zelda series is really supposed to be represented by the three triforce wielders then why aren't they as diverse, original, and faithful as Kirby, Metaknight, and Dedede are to the Kirby series?

Yes, the Zelda series should be treated on par with the Mario series where they have a similar core cast system and like Mario when a game is well received and brings a fan favorite character like Rosalina that character should be added to Smash.

This is the real difference between FE "one-shots" and Zelda "one-shots", Tingle, Skullkid, Gannon, have all been in a minimum of three games and referenced in half a dozen more. Your "massively popular" Fire Emblem characters still cant even get 2 million copies of a game sold while one game of Zelda can easily sell 4 million and even go as high as 10 million. People like Zelda better. And don't even act like Fire Emblem has great moveset potential to pull from. We all know that's rubbish. Why do you think people commonly complain about anime swordsman.

New Characters don't need to be as popular as Link. if Mario can add Rosalina and the Koopalings then Zelda should be able to add from its diverse cast too.

No matter how "rich" you think your FE stories are, games like Majoras Mask still have people talking about it, FE doesn't. Each FE addition is just a fad.

Have you seen FE fans make something like this for their characters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbMQfaG6lo8
Diminishing returns my ***.

If you actually bothered to do the slightest bit of research about Fire Emblem, you would have realized that Intelligent Systems has actually done a good job of keeping a spotlight on all of the Fire Emblem characters in the modern era:

-Several of the older characters from all the past games including Marth and Ike appeared in Awakening DLC.
-Codename STEAM, Fates, and Echoes all had Marth, Ike, Lucina, and Robin summonable via ammibo (Roy was only in Echoes)
-IS made collectible cards of all the Fire Emblem Smash roster plus many others modern and older characters (Japan only).
-Fire Emblem Warriors which released less than a year ago has Lucina, Marth, Robin, and Corrin appear.
-Fire Emblem Heroes became Nintendo's most successful mobile title after Pokémon Go and all the Fire Emblem Smash roster makes an appearance in it.

All of the six Fire Emblem characters continue to be relevant outside of Smash so you can get off of your high horse about Fire Emblem additions being a "fad".

 

[MrRoidley]

The idea about Zelda not really having any worthy characters aside from the Triforce ones because they're all one-shots is absolutely rubbish.
Many of them, specially Midna and Skull Kid, grew up to be fan-favorite characters and are consistently remembered. Counting only the main series, Rosalina was a one-shot back when she was picked to be in Smash (2012), so, that really shouldn't be an issue. That's why I really roll my eyes when people say Sheik should be cut since she's not "relevant" anymore. She's just a fan-favorite character from what was the best-selling and most critically acclaimed Zelda game ever until just a few weeks ago, but whatever

And... No. Fire Emblem's additions mostly aren't fads. imo you can argue that Roy and Corrin are kinda fads (both were promotional characters but at least Roy found some kind of fanbase inside Smash separate from his actual FE incarnation even), but Marth, Ike, Lucina and Robin are really important characters to the franchise, either starring in more than one game (Marth and Ike), or starring in the best selling game that saved the series (Robin, Lucina). And saying Fire Emblem characters have no moveset potential... Marth, Ike, Robin and Corrin all work very differently (I won't count Roy and Lucina here since they are indeed clones), regardless of them all using swords (swords are just a weapon!!!! or should I complain about the overabundance of fist fighters in Smash???? no, bc just like the sword users, they all have different stances) and there's still a long way to go counting all classes and weapons present in the series

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You're right when you say that this would be the most opportune time to change Zelda's moveset, but think of it this way. What do you think would cause more controversy? Leaving Zelda exactly how she is, or changing her to the point where she's plays nothing like how she did in Melee, Brawl, SSB4?

We've had Zelda's original moveset an awfully long time. Yeah, that moveset is garbage, but I don't necessarily think we need to completely redesign it with flashy new BotW-inspired specials to make her better. Maybe give her a few buffs, make her faster, and change one or two of her attacks, then leave the rest alone.

Plus, Zelda using Champion abilities still makes no sense. Link was the one who used them, not her.

Link was also the one who used Dins Fire and the others in OoT. Zelda never used those.

Look, Zelda is trash because the moveset and function of the moveset is outdated. It was based on having a second half that was the complete opposite. Because she no longer has that, there is far more opportunity to do something with it.

A simple buff can’t change the function of an entire moveset.

 

[Metablaze]

Here are my choices of newcomers to smash5


v

 

[blackghost]

im a little late to the conversation, but one thing is getting lost in the zelda discussion. For the people that don't want to see her changed i really have to ask why. Its not just that she has been bad (read awful) its that sakurai has admitted that her moveset was designed with the intent to compliment shiek. She was supposed to be power to speed, damage to shieks death by a thousand cuts. But when the split happened shiek functioned as an independent character fine. zelda obviously hasn't. She has been left with a moveset from a design perspective that has been left behind. It hurts her in terms of usage, it hurts her as a rep of a historic franchise and it hurts her as a character a causal will pick up and use. Not wanting her moveset to chnage simply because of nostalgia is a weak argument. characters have recived updates in smash.

I get that hyrule warriors was majority fan service but it cannot be denied how well that game implemented multiple parts of a characters lore and history into movesets and made the characters feel unique and strong (even if shiek was STILL at worst the second best in the game lol).
At this point i dont care what they do with zelda she shouldn't come out copy pasted like she has been. she must be addressed. the moveset is bad. it doesnt do anything well. it is not a zoning moveset, it is not a rushdown, she cannot camp, and her plan is to land minuscule sweetspots to kill or hit you with a teleport. People often bang on palutena moveset, she at least has a plan in her specials: be defensive and use counters.

as long as zelda keeps her low speed and agility (which i expect her to) she should get a new moveset imo. she can remain a collection of moves from various games but her kit needs to be modified.

between midna and skull kid i'd go midna. her plus wolf link would make an interesting character that could use both magic and physical attacks.

 

[Freduardo]

Skull Kid's fanbase is much larger. Part of it is that most people who grew up in 2000, are, like me, in their twenties. They've spread their cult following through the clothes they get at Spencer's and the art/memes they've spread throughout the internet.

We've been kind of an influence, because we've known it longer. Majora's Mask is one of the most iconic Zelda games, which made Majora's Mask one of the most iconic symbols, which logically made Skull Kid one of the most iconic villains.

When it comes to Zelda villains, Skull Kid is thought of, second only to Ganondorf.

If you are the type that only plays 3d Zelda’s maybe.

If you play 2d Zelda’s, Vaati is thought of second only to Ganon.

But since it’s ganondorf in there and not Ganon, most seem to play 3d Zelda’s.

 

[Murlough]

From what I can tell the people who don't want Zelda changed are those that just like her current moveset. People who want her changed like Zelda because shes Zelda. I could be misinterpreting but thats how these posts have read for a while.

Honestly, I understand loving a kit and wanting it to stay but Zelda needs something new. Link you could argue has potential to be decent but Zelda's kit can only really be either busted because they buffed her to the point where her weaknesses are offset by some ridiculous kill confirm or shes garbage because her kit leaves room for too many weaknesses.

I want her to be changed, personally. Zelda's been held down by her horrid kit for three games now, lets not make it four.

As for the fire emblem thing: it's not just a fad. There are people who want Lyn in the game. When was the last time she was in a main series game? Heroes and Warriors don't count I'm sorry. There are characters that people get attached to in Fire Emblem just as they do in Zelda.

Also, I really dislike the "well my favorite series makes twice as much as your favorite series, therefore you're series is clearly inferior and undeserving." Come on now. Zelda deserves more characters, but there are better ways to say it than that.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The Zelda series doesn't deserve more characters if the current set of characters are too flawed. They should put in all their effort into improving the veterans first instead of adding in new characters. After all, it doesn't mean anything if the characters still have glaring flaws that leaves the fans with a sour taste.

I'd argue this with any series, but the Zelda series is by far the most blatant example of this.

 

[NintenRob]

If you are the type that only plays 3d Zelda’s maybe.

If you play 2d Zelda’s, Vaati is thought of second only to Ganon.

But since it’s ganondorf in there and not Ganon, most seem to play 3d Zelda’s.

I personally think Vaati is over stated, yeah he's the villain in three separate games, but they're probably among the most obscure main series Zelda games, especially four swords.

And yeah, being 2D does unfortunately hurt, he came during a time when 3D Zelda was still relatively new and everyone loved them, 2D Zelda games are very overlooked nowadays.


On the other subject
Although all this Skull Kid talk does make me smile. People are making strong points in his favour. If get both Skull Kid and Midna, I might never ask for another Zelda newcomer again

 

[Murlough]

The Zelda series doesn't deserve more characters if the current set of characters are too flawed. They should put in all their effort into improving the veterans first instead of adding in new characters. After all, it doesn't mean anything if the characters still have glaring flaws that leaves the fans with a sour taste.

I'd argue this with any series, but the Zelda series is by far the most blatant example of this.

So, because the main three aren't very good, no other Zelda character should be allowed in the roster until a game after they fix the original three's issues. That sounds pretty unfair.

Toon Link is pretty alright so does that mean they do deserve more representation after all? I dunno the argument just doesn't make much sense. A new character they add from Zelda isn't held back by the flaws of the main three's kits so why should they be excluded for a reason like that? How is this argument logical?

EDIT: also Link is mid tier. Is that not good enough for the series to earn another character? Where do we draw this line?

 

[NintendoKnight]

So, because the main three aren't very good, no other Zelda character should be allowed in the roster until a game after they fix the original three's issues. That sounds pretty unfair.

Toon Link is pretty alright so does that mean they do deserve more representation after all? I dunno the argument just doesn't make much sense. A new character they add from Zelda isn't held back but the flaws of the main three's kits so why should they be excluded for a reason like that? How is this argument logical?

EDIT: also Link is mid tier. Is that not good enough for the series to earn another character? Where do we draw this line?

I think what he means to say is he wants them to prioritize fixing the current characters before adding new ones. Both should happen, but in a specific order.

At least, that was my interpretation.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So, because the main three aren't very good, no other Zelda character should be allowed in the roster until a game after they fix the original three's issues. That sounds pretty unfair.

Toon Link is pretty alright so does that mean they do deserve more representation after all? I dunno the argument just doesn't make much sense. A new character they add from Zelda isn't held back but the flaws of the main three's kits so why should they be excluded for a reason like that? How is this argument logical?

Because development time is precious and it would be far wiser to actually fix problems instead of ignoring it. Adding a new character is not going to fix the problems that characters like Zelda and Ganondorf have. Long term, people are still going to bitter that the Zelda series got the short end of the stick yet again because the characters are too fundamentally busted to be of practical use. Hell for all we know, the newcomer might even be another busted execution, only further highlighting the problem.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

As a medieval arms/armor enthusiast, I can link you all to different videos regarding fighting styles with different weapons, as well as multiple fighting styles for the same archetype of weapon, such as sword. Please, for the love of Grima, never say Fire Emblem characters don't have a lot of moveset potential. Excluding magic for obvious reason, REAL human history disproves that melee weapons don't leave an infinite pool of moveset potential.

And on that note, actually, there's even characters like Ike who just swing their sword like a club, not even really pulling from an actual sword style.

 

[NintenRob]

I think what he means to say is he wants them to prioritize fixing the current characters before adding new ones. Both should happen, but in a specific order.

At least, that was my interpretation.

I personally don't think Zelda needs a full moveset change to be good imo. Maybe one new special and maybe a new air attack. And don't let Dins fire make her helpless. And the just your overall buffs.

As for Ganondorf, I'd be happy with just the Dead man volley.

I actually enjoy playing as both characters as they are in Smash 4. So I don't think big radical changes are necessary, although in Ganondorfs case it would be appreciated.

 

[Roberk]

No. You my friend have been drinking the Smashboards Kool-aid for far too long.

First off, if the Zelda series is really supposed to be represented by the three triforce wielders then why aren't they as diverse, original, and faithful as Kirby, Metaknight, and Dedede are to the Kirby series?

Yes, the Zelda series should be treated on par with the Mario series where they have a similar core cast system and like Mario when a game is well received and brings a fan favorite character like Rosalina that character should be added to Smash.

This is the real difference between FE "one-shots" and Zelda "one-shots", Tingle, Skullkid, Gannon, have all been in a minimum of three games and referenced in half a dozen more. Your "massively popular" Fire Emblem characters still cant even get 2 million copies of a game sold while one game of Zelda can easily sell 4 million and even go as high as 10 million. People like Zelda better. And don't even act like Fire Emblem has great moveset potential to pull from. We all know that's rubbish. Why do you think people commonly complain about anime swordsman.

New Characters don't need to be as popular as Link. if Mario can add Rosalina and the Koopalings then Zelda should be able to add from its diverse cast too.

No matter how "rich" you think your FE stories are, games like Majoras Mask still have people talking about it, FE doesn't. Each FE addition is just a fad.

Have you seen FE fans make something like this for their characters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbMQfaG6lo8
Diminishing returns my ***.

FE isn’t “mine”. It’s owned by a subsidiary of Nintendo: Intelligent Systems. And “Smashboards kool-aid”? I thought that defending FE was unpopular within the Smash community, but whatever you need to belittle my arguments then.

I never said that the current Zelda characters are all we need and that they shouldn’t change, I believe I actually stated in my post that they should be reworked. Captaindorf and crappy Zelda are huge disservices to the characters and franchise. Its a shame they weren’t done as well as the Kirby trio, but while Sakurai states he tries to avoid bias, it’s clear it’s easier to adapt characters that he literally created in the first place.

Rosalina is heavily promoted by Nintendo, moreso than recurring characters you stated like Tingle, Skullkid, and Ganon. MK Wii, Super Mario 3D World, MK 8, etc. Bowser Jr also makes numerous appeances across the Mario franchise, and brings the Koopalings who are somewhat still important to boot. They are villains of multiple Mario games so they hold much more value than some would expect.

And sales? Probably because before Awakening, FE was marketed terribly. Smash was 99% of its promotion, and now it’s considered a flagship franchise by Nintendo. Despite that it still managed to be a long-running and mostly consistent franchise for Nintendo with many entries over the past 3 decades. Also, FE Heroes is cleaning after Mario Run’s and Pocket Camp’s crap currently. It’s probably the only thing keeping Nintendo Mobile going, they said in the annual financial report that they were disappointed by Mobile as a whole. Because a FE game has to pay for Animal Crossing and Super Mario’s mistakes. And if anyone says “Mobile doesn’t matter”, they have to have multiple options when they’ve combined their home and handheld markets with the Switch. Keeping all of their eggs in one basket is a terrible business idea, and Mobile accesses the biggest market of all: smart phones.

It’s also more than just previous sales and potential growth. FE and IS revolutionized the Strategy Tactical RPG genre and continues to do so to this day. It holds importance to the industry like how LoZ revolutionized adventure games and dungeons. That alone can make it worthy of recognition.

FE doesn’t have great move set potential? Look at Marth, a character who’s been high tier for every Smash he’s been in. His moveset is so great that it is synonomous with most sword users in the platform fighting genre as a whole. Marth’s moves also do one of the best jobs of referencing animations from the games, pulling stuff from his own entries and others like the recent Jugdral series at the time Marth was initially developed. As much as I dislike Corrin, they are one of the most unique characters in Smash 4 with their moveset alone. Also Robin, who uses many spells of the franchise and represents a core mechanic of breakable weapons. The current roster is only scratching the surface with some spells and swords, FE has 28 years worth of combat animations and functions for spears, axes, bows, staves, dragonstones, more tomes. It’s a shame that we have to deal with all of these swords, but that doesn’t discredit the massive potential that I initially stated.

Also, using anime as an argument is stupid, the majority of the Smash roster is “anime” in a certain way. “Oh no, a Japanese company producing Japanese games has their characters in a Japanese style?” FE is based in European folklore and mythos, it’s arguably the least anime in that sense. (Excluding Hoshido in Fates being based in Japanese styles, but other than that: medieval Europe.)

Plus, I’d be mad about swordsmen in Smash once they outnumber the “brawlers”. There are a staggering amount of characters who only use their hands and feet. Oh? People say that hands and feet can be used uniquely? Then why can’t weapons be used uniquely? It’s because people need to latch on to something to accuse FE of.

People don’t talk about FE games? I see lots still talking about Genealogy of the Holy War and people are still trying to translate Thracia 776 to this day. Awakening and Fates are still talked about, and I don’t think 3-6 years after their releases and after entries like SOV came out make them “fads”. Even then, I don’t think people not talking about old games would invalidate the stories and characters within them.