Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Elephant in the Room that needs adressed:

When Sheik was added, it was alongside Zelda as two characters together who share the same spot on the select screen. The reason it's not weird that we have Sheik is because she's a popular veteran and because she and Zelda are the same person.

So it's not a fair argument to bring up Sheik. THAT'S the elephant in the room.

Replace her with Impa

It's clear from the trailer that she's in the game. But, there's no reason Impa can't be a costume character like Alph. Besides, Sheik is more popular than Impa. A lot of people would be mad if she was just replaced.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

When Sheik was added, it was alongside Zelda as two characters together who share the same spot on the select screen. The reason it's not weird that we have Sheik is because she's a popular veteran and because she and Zelda are the same person.

So it's not a fair argument to bring up Sheik. THAT'S the elephant in the room.

What's unfair? Link may be universal to his series but Zelda and especially Sheik draw a lot from one particular game, Ocarina of Time.

And "Elephant in the Room" means something that's obvious that no-one is paying attention to. If you don't think the point I'm trying to make is valid that's fine, but that's not the burn you think it is.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

In my opinion, Sheik is going to stay Sheik. If Sheik was not released as a Zelda transformation in Melee, then maybe we get Impa as a ninja-like character some time down the line, but I think Sheik isn't going to change now that she's been established in the Smash series for 3 games.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

In my opinion, Sheik is going to stay Sheik. If Sheik was not released as a Zelda transformation in Melee, then maybe we get Impa as a ninja-like character some time down the line, but I think Sheik isn't going to change now that she's been established in the Smash series for 3 games.

Agreed.

Sheik is part of the Smash stable now, in particular, one of those that is more known through Smash than their home series, along with Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, ROB and the MOTHER Duo.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If there's gonna be any Zelda newcomers, I think the one with the most potential, while simultaneously being a big character in the series, is Toon Zelda. The Spirit Tracks incarnation inside the Phantom.

The ability of a character's shell to break with excessive damage and become a weaker, but more agile fighter would bring something completely unique to Super Smash Bros. There's many incarnations of the Phantom that she can derive her abilities from. Such as Torch Phantoms, Warp Phantoms, and Wrecking Ball Phantoms.

It may seem highly unusual for Toon Zelda to not be a clone, but there's nothing preventing it, especially now that the differences between her and the BOTW version of Zelda are greatened.

It's the most iconic incarnation of the character and it was used in Hyrule Warriors. It would also make sense assuming they decide to use the newer incarnation of Toon Link from Spirit Tracks like they did with Adult Link.

I think it makes perfect sense for future Zelda newcomers to be other incarnations of the current characters, seeing as there aren't really any other characters available. I feel like this is an exception they can easily get away with as the other incarnations are completely different characters as well as the most iconic ones in line.

Like I said, this would simultaneously be the most popular/iconic as well as the most unique character available.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

If there's gonna be any Zelda newcomers, I think the one with the most potential, while simultaneously being a big character in the series, is Toon Zelda. The Spirit Tracks incarnation inside the Phantom.
View attachment 140750
The ability of a character's shell to break with excessive damage and become a weaker, but more agile fighter would bring something completely unique to Super Smash Bros. There's many incarnations of the Phantom that she can derive her abilities from. Such as Torch Phantoms, Warp Phantoms, and Wrecking Ball Phantoms.

It may seem highly unusual for Toon Zelda to not be a clone, but there's nothing preventing it, especially now that the differences between her and the BOTW version of Zelda are greatened.

It's the most iconic incarnation of the character and it was used in Hyrule Warriors. It would also make sense assuming they decide to use the newer incarnation of Toon Link from Spirit Tracks like they did with Adult Link.

I think it makes perfect sense for future Zelda newcomers to be other incarnations of the current characters, seeing as there aren't really any other characters available. I feel like this is an exception they can easily get away with as the other incarnations are completely different characters as well as the most iconic ones in line.

Like I said, this would simultaneously be the most popular/iconic as well as the most unique character available.

What would your thoughts be on the inclusion of Tetra, then? She's been in the majority of toon games, as well as Hyrule Warriors. I don't want to get into heavy spoilers, so I'm not going to discuss too many details. Would you be okay with Tetra being a playable character?

EDIT: Oh Tetra is in your signature. I found my answer lol

 

[TheLastJinjo]

What would your thoughts be on the inclusion of Tetra, then? She's been in the majority of toon games, as well as Hyrule Warriors. I don't want to get into heavy spoilers, so I'm not going to discuss too many details. Would you be okay with Tetra being a playable character?

EDIT: Oh Tetra is in your signature. I founds my answer lol

My personal opinion is that Toon Zelda SP & Tetra are in line if there's going to be multiple Zelda newcomers which seems likely for this installment. If Mario and Pokemon get a newcomer, that leaves two open for Zelda.

My signature isn't a list of predictions though. It's just characters that I want.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

My personal opinion is that Toon Zelda SP & Tetra are in line if there's going to be multiple Zelda newcomers which seems like for this installment.

My signature isn't a list of predictions though. It's just characters that I want.

I guess I personally see them falling into the same vein, which is why I said it that way. I feel like they're very much "one or the other" characters with fairly equal things going for them as far as significance goes. I'd be happy with either.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

What's unfair? Link may be universal to his series but Zelda and especially Sheik draw a lot from one particular game, Ocarina of Time.

But, they aren't characters from one game.

And "Elephant in the Room" means something that's obvious that no-one is paying attention to.

The point was that it's not obvious and it's not worth paying attention to because it's not equivalent.

If you don't think the point I'm trying to make is valid that's fine, but that's not the burn you think it is.

Nobody's trying to "burn" you.

 

[Morbi]

In my opinion, Sheik is going to stay Sheik. If Sheik was not released as a Zelda transformation in Melee, then maybe we get Impa as a ninja-like character some time down the line, but I think Sheik isn't going to change now that she's been established in the Smash series for 3 games.

Precisely, if they wanted to replace her with Impa, the time would have been Smash for Wii U, when they were separated. If we get Impa, it is going to be an original move-set, or I guess a clone. I highly doubt we will get anyone from Legend of Zelda with triangles on the back of their hand, however.

 

[PSIguy89]

on the topic of Ninten i was thinking if we wanted something that stayed true to his character and also allowed him to stand out from Ness and Lucas, we could borrow a bit from Shulk's monado gimmick. The big difference being most of his special moveset would revolve around his buffing abilities. Neutral B would be Offense Up (think project M lucas) side B could be Quickup, down B could be defense up, and ofcourse up B would be 4th D slip. ALSO Eve for his final Smash! i like to envision Ninten being mush more physical than either Ness or Lucas, maybe kinda like SSB64 Ness?

 

[EmceeEspio]

I see this is where we discuss Flash Mothe-

OH damn there's a lotta people here.

But yeah, as it appears we're discussing Shiek I have to say that I'm still not entirely convinced Sheik is the leaning-back figure shown in the trailer as of right now.

 

[Morbi]

on the topic of Ninten i was thinking if we wanted something that stayed true to his character and also allowed him to stand out from Ness and Lucas, we could borrow a bit from Shulk's monado gimmick. The big difference being most of his special moveset would revolve around his buffing abilities. Neutral B would be Offense Up (think project M lucas) side B could be Quickup, down B could be defense up, and ofcourse up B would be 4th D slip. ALSO Eve for his final Smash! i like to envision Ninten being mush more physical than either Ness or Lucas, maybe kinda like SSB64 Ness?

Ninten might be the only character where the "he is not relevant" argument actually applies. I honestly do not understand the obsession or why people humor that and blatantly disregard Daisy. It is as Rosie says, that triggers everyone, hypocritical af.

 

[CroonerMike]

Ninten is such a trash and waste character slot.

 

[EmceeEspio]

Ninten is such a trash and waste character slot.

Just the kind of positive forward-thinking energy we need here at Smashcorp!

You're hired!

 

[PSIguy89]

umm who cares if hes "trash" lol maybe for some of us MOTHER fans its fun to think how he COULD possibly be added in a different way. also who cares about his relevancy? that had nothing to do with my post

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't like the idea of replacing an outdated Smash veteran like Sheik with someone like Impa. Either make Impa a completely different character or make her an alt for Sheik. Either way, don't cut Sheik entirely just because you think she's too irrelevant to be on the roster now.


Also, I'd like to remind everyone that these one-time characters are pretty much essential to the Zelda series getting more representation on the roster. Even if Impa randomly gets added in this Smash (adding her in Smash 4 when she was extremely relevant would have made more sense IMO), where would the series go from there?


There's only 3 possibilities here, and only one sounds favorable to me.

(1) We're indefinitely stuck with "the main cast" in Smash until the Zelda series finally creates a notable Smash-worthy character who appears in multiple games. After 30 years of Zelda, we're still stuck with just Link, Zelda, Ganon, Impa, and Tingle. I wouldn't get your hopes up for this scenario.

(2) We start getting different versions of Link, Zelda, and Ganon. Doesn't seem very exciting to me, but I suppose others might see it differently.

(3) We get more "Sheik" characters who represent a single game from the franchise. After a few Smash games, these characters would add up and create a timeline of the Zelda series, similarly to what's been done with Pokémon and FE.

 

[EmceeEspio]

Personally I would rather have Masked Man or Porky (or even Kumatora although I think Lucas having her moves works against her) than Ninten, although I'd be happy with Ninten.

Masked Man is one of my most wanted characters even if he's near the bottom of my prediction list. I think he and Porky add things in terms of game-play that the other MOTHER reps don't really add as much. And I don't like to use the "Ninten is too similar to Ness" argument, but I would prefer that someone more visually and functionally distinct represent the series. (Porky has a mech suit, Masked Man can control lightning and has a hand cannon and retractable wings, etc).

 

[Superyoshiom]

Ninten is such a trash and waste character slot.

Better Ninten than half the third party requests we're getting nowadays.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda could kick out Toon Link forever and it would still be more than fine. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are all we need and Sheik is a great bonus.

More characters are the last thing Zelda needs. Literally any other form of representation are a better use of their time.

Option 1 please.

 

[EmceeEspio]

Zelda could kick out Toon Link forever and it would still be more than fine. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are all we need and Sheik is a great bonus.

More characters are the last thing Zelda needs.

I would beg to disagree. With BOTW Link presumably replacing the old Link in terms of visual style and possibly even gameplay function, I think Toon Link becomes even more important not only as a representative of the Toon side of the Zelda series but as the remaining representative of the traditional Link moveset and outfit.

 

[Starcutter]

Honestly though, I'd be super happy with Tingle since I've seen gameplay of his games.

They are so weird but also look really interesting, I'd love Tingle to pull from those games a ton if he makes it in.

 

[Cosmic77]

Zelda could kick out Toon Link forever and it would still be more than fine. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are all we need and Sheik is a great bonus.

More characters are the last thing Zelda needs. Literally any other form of representation are a better use of their time.

Option 1 please.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Zelda is Nintendo's third-biggest IP and one of the most iconic series in gaming. I've seen its cast of characters, and there's PLENTY of potential fighters who could do some pretty crazy things in Smash. Seems a little stupid to reject those characters entirely and say, "Nah, we already have everyone we need! Doesn't really matter if they'd be unique because they're doomed to be irrelevant by the next Zelda game."

 

[Superyoshiom]

Honestly though, I'd be super happy with Tingle since I've seen gameplay of his games.

They are so weird but also look really interesting, I'd love Tingle to pull from those games a ton if he makes it in.

We don't have enough ugly people representation in Smash. Add Tingle and Waluigi to balance things out.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Zelda is Nintendo's third-biggest IP and one of the most iconic series in gaming. I've seen its cast of characters, and there's PLENTY of potential fighters who could do some pretty crazy things in Smash. Seems a little stupid to reject those characters entirely and say, "Nah, we already have everyone we need! Doesn't really matter if they'd be unique because they're doomed to be irrelevant by the next Zelda game."

On one hand, I really want more Zelda characters, on the other hand, I don't want them to be Toon Zelda and Toon Ganon.

 

[EmceeEspio]

We don't have enough ugly people representation in Smash. Add Tingle and Waluigi to balance things out.

>Waluigi
>Not sexy

That's okay we all make mistakes.

But yeah, Tingle would be pretty funny. My most wanted would be Vaati if not for his unfortunate lack on inclusion in Hyrule Warriors and lack of recent appearances, especially in his humanoid Minish form. Impa would also be cool but you only have three forms of her that are combatants to pull from (though that's enough to pull from I think it may be seen as exceptions rather than the rule). Midna is definitely the most popular and she'd be fine but personally I don't have any attachment to her.

 

[Superyoshiom]

>Waluigi
>Not sexy

That's okay we all make mistakes.

But yeah, Tingle would be pretty funny. My most wanted would be Vaati if not for his unfortunate lack on inclusion in Hyrule Warriors and lack of recent appearances, especially in his humanoid Minish form. Impa would also be cool but you only have three forms of her that are combatants to pull from (though that's enough to pull from I think it may be seen as exceptions rather than the rule). Midna is definitely the most popular and she'd be fine but personally I don't have any attachment to her.

I'd love Vaati but he doesn't seem to represent the Toon game's villains as much as I thought he did. If he appeared in just one more mainline Zelda game, I could see his chances in Smash skyrocketing.

 

[AlphaSSB]

More TLoZ content in general will always be nice to see, but I'd love to see a new TLoZ character. I have my preferences for who I'd like to see, but there are plenty of characters available that would make for excellent additions. Impa, Midna, Skull Kid, Tetra, Revali, Urbosa, etc.

Also, Espio made a great point in regards to Toon Link. They could easily recreate Link to fit BotW, while keeping Toon Link around for those who prefer the original moveset. Doing so would differentiate Link to the point where Toon Link isn't even considered a semi-clone.

Hopefully Ganondorf will get some fitting changes, but seeing as there isn't much to go by with BotW, I don't think a new moveset is likely for him.

 

[Superyoshiom]

I'm just not a fan of the idea of having BotW Link be a separate character and having adult Link from past games be his own charatcer, all the while keeping Toon Link. This basically treats BotW Link as a newcomer, and thus would have gotten his own trailer or spotlight instead of being shown so briefly.

One of the main reasons I'm excited for champion Link is that we can potentially have 5 completely unique Zelda characters since Toon Link will be even further apart from the original Link. Having three Links is just redundant and frankly messy. Just have the green tunic be an alt for Link.

 

[EmceeEspio]

I'm just not a fan of the idea of having BotW Link be a separate character and having adult Link from past games be his own charatcer, all the while keeping Toon Link. This basically treats BotW Link as a newcomer, and thus would have gotten his own trailer or spotlight instead of being shown so briefly.

One of the main reasons I'm excited for champion Link is that we can potentially have 5 completely unique Zelda characters since Toon Link will be even further apart from the original Link. Having three Links is just redundant and frankly messy. Just have the green tunic be an alt for Link.

All of this especially the last sentence.

Because I don't like change.

 

[UserKev]

Toon Zelda in Smash would really irk me. Multiples Links and now multiple Zeldas? No. That'd be an even more insult to the series representation.

You could have Impa, Ghirahim or even Skull Kid, uniquely apart and worthy candidates.

 

[Deleted member]

I would beg to disagree. With BOTW Link presumably replacing the old Link in terms of visual style and possibly even gameplay function, I think Toon Link becomes even more important not only as a representative of the Toon side of the Zelda series but as the remaining representative of the traditional Link moveset and outfit.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Zelda is Nintendo's third-biggest IP and one of the most iconic series in gaming. I've seen its cast of characters, and there's PLENTY of potential fighters who could do some pretty crazy things in Smash. Seems a little stupid to reject those characters entirely and say, "Nah, we already have everyone we need! Doesn't really matter if they'd be unique because they're doomed to be irrelevant by the next Zelda game."

I will say this again, unless you can argue that a BOTW newcomer will bring in a significant amount of sales, it does not need to be in Smash. No matter what they bring, no matter how awesome the character might be, if they cannot be a draw towards the next Smash game, then it’s silly to claim we need them. In fact, if you cut around half of the roster, there would still be virtually no impact on sales.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t get one, let alone saying they are bad ideas, but I wish people would be more hesitant to throw the word “need” around. Of the prospective newcomers, no one is going to be consequential towards adding adding sales in Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What about Poison?

Poison hasn't been in Mario Kart.

 

[EmceeEspio]

I will say this again, unless you can argue that a BOTW newcomer will bring in a significant amount of sales, it does not need to be in Smash. No matter what they bring, no matter how awesome the character might be, if they cannot be a draw towards the next Smash game, then it’s silly to claim we need them. In fact, if you cut around half of the roster, there would still be virtually no impact on sales.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t get one, let alone saying they are bad ideas, but I wish people would be more hesitant to throw the word “need” around. Of the prospective newcomers, no one is going to be consequential towards adding adding sales in Smash.

I'm just saying that according to how I percieve the current situation, Toon Link 'deserves' to stay.

 

[MrReyes96]

My solution to the Zelda roster would be make Link/Zelda/Ganondorf/Impa/Sheik based on breath of the wild since it’s the newest biggest Zelda game. I would be willing to replace Sheik with impa but as others have said she’s become a staple so I would give Impa her own moveset. I would also have two other characters called Classic Link and Classic Ganon that would represent the pre-ocarina era of Zelda and handheld titles. Classic Link would be a mix of regular smash Link and Toon Link and represent that moveset while Link gets a breath of the wild overhaul. Classic Ganon would be the blue pig version and use a trident and magic.

This is the image I like to show to represent my idea.

So the roster would be
Link/Zelda/Ganondorf/Sheik/Impa/Classic Link/Classic Ganon

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I wouldn't complain too much if we got characters like say, Midna or Ghirahim, but we're unlikely to see more than a select few Zelda newcomers in the foreseeable unless some direction on the Smash series changes, at least as far as Zelda characters go.

I could see us getting Impa, Tetra, or, very unlikely, Tingle.

The Champions have a moderate chance right now, but if they miss their opportunity and don't return for recurring roles in the franchise's future, I won't see their situation as being any different from Midna's, Zant's or Ghirahim's.

As much as I love the Zelda series (believe me, it's my favorite video game series of all time), there's not many characters from it remaining that I really want to see in Smash. But, that's just me. And in any case, I still view most potential Zelda newcomers as being pretty unlikely right now anyway.

 

[Starcutter]

If we are talking Zelda, I think a BOTW character is likely, just based off sales and hype alone. This might be a Greninja situation where Sakurai looks at the most prominent characters from the (at the time) upcoming game and picks one. I could see that happening specifically because Nintendo seemed to put a lot of faith in Zelda.

I used to really want Tetra before Smash 4 came out, but that's in the past and Tetra wasn't really too relevant in the first place.



Hey, I've got an idea. Which character do you want mainly for a moveset mechanic you think would bring a lot to smash?

I've wanted Dark Matter from Kirby for a while now, but it wasn't until recently that I actually thought of ideas for a moveset. One of the more interesting ideas for him is the ability to LITERALLY POSSESS OPPONENTS. While that wouldn't really be good in a one-on-one situation, the interesting situations in a free-for-all or team battle just scream exciting to me.

Obviously, there would be some balancing things for it. For example, it shouldn't be too long and I think the other player should be able to mash to get out. An idea I've seen to balance the suicide kill thing would be if mashing out of it midair would put Dark Matter into Special fall but leave the possessee available to recover.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Zelda could kick out Toon Link forever and it would still be more than fine. Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are all we need and Sheik is a great bonus.

More characters are the last thing Zelda needs. Literally any other form of representation are a better use of their time.

Option 1 please.

Wow.

Just...

Wow. I really wish I wasn't forced to read that because you're a moderator.

 

[EmceeEspio]

I would honestly prefer not to have a BOTW newcomer. The only really interesting possibilities are the Champions and putting any of them in over another seems like an eh move to me.

Yes, even Urbosa for the people I see who keep requesting her. She's cool and all but not get in Smash over the other three cool.

Tweaking Link and Zelda should be sufficient.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

My issue with the "Zelda already has the important characters, it doesn't need more" argument is that a lot of the same people want characters like Waluigi, Sylux, Dixie, K. Rool, Isabelle, etc.

All those games already have their main characters. But it's okay for them to get more characters but not Zelda? Who cares if Zelda gets a one-off character as a newcomer? We've all come to the agreement that this Smash game is likely to add more side characters because all the primary bases are already covered. Zelda has plenty of characters who would be great, and this Smash game is a better opportunity for all of them than Brawl or Smash 4 due to the most important characters already being in.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I don't see Zelda getting anyone new pretty much ever, to be honest.

It's not that there aren't any cool ideas for Zelda characters (I personally would love it if Midna got in), I think it's more along the lines of Sakurai and Nintendo only wanting to highlight what's fresh in people's minds or what plays heavily into people's nostalgia, which no other Zelda character outside of the ones we have right now do. The only people who would recognize characters like Midna, Vaati, Impa, and other characters like them are hardcore Nintendo fans. And if some of the roster choices for Smash Wii U/3DS were any indication, Nintendo and Sakurai don't seem like they're interested in specifically trying to appeal to that group too much. Of course, that's just speculation on my part; the only people who know why Nintendo does what they do is Nintendo themselves, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. You never know, maybe Nintendo will throw the hardcore fans a bone; they did bring back Lucas and Roy, after all.