Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Robert of Normandy]

Y'all are forgetting the single most popular and best female in the Fire Emblem series.

Lyn will join Mac in the Assist Trophy promotion, mark my words.

(That's my hope anyway.)

I could see it. I remember reading a developer interview saying that the FE developers had no idea how popular she was. Though admittedly I don't recall the source, so take my recollections with a mountain of salt grains.

At the very least, now with actual hard proof of her astronomical popularity, maybe it's finally her time to shine.

 

[Ura]

Advanced Wars

Problem #1

Nintendo themselves said Shadows of Valentia sold well, so to say otherwise is baseless. And considering the characters from it are incredibly popular among fans and IS continues to support it (it's getting it's own full art book this year), it's far from a niche game as far as Fire Emblem is concerned. Your anger seems misplaced/coming from a place of salt over not getting a new Advanced Wars, as you implied, honestly.

Problem #2

Why would Nintendo/Sakurai want to promote a niche FE2 character in Smash Bros when 1) FE fatigue is at an all time high and 2) The game is dated and hardly even relevant to it's own series?

Problem #3

SoV didn't do nearly as well as the games that were before it. It did something like 500K-600K which is a fraction of what Awakening and Fates did. You can make all the excuses you want in the world for it's performance but if FE is truly the major IP Nintendo makes it out to be, it wouldn't do those kinds of numbers. Period.

Which is why I said that despite me not liking the idea of an FE16 character (and trust me I wouldn't), I would still understand the benefits for the inclusion of said character. There is none with those two characters.

And since you pulled that card again which I honestly expected you to do, I might as well. You know what game did better than SoV? *drum roll* Advance (mind you it's not Advanced thank you very much) Wars. Call me salty all you want because I don't really care (no offense to you of course). Thank you very much.

 

[?????????????]

Are there any suggestions for the next retro character? I've heard Takamura but I really have no idea.

I'd really like it to be Takamaru. I've also been a fan of Excitebiker.

 

[Deleted member]

I've seen the words "needs" "more" and "representation" next to each other too many times since the game got announced.
It honestly baffles me that some people support characters for that reason.

 

[Fastblade5035]

All this talk of FE and no one has even mentioned the only character worth adding

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I could see it. I remember reading a developer interview saying that the FE developers had no idea how popular she was.

This is the interview.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Y'all are forgetting the single most popular and best female in the Fire Emblem series.

Lyn will join Mac in the Assist Trophy promotion club, mark my words.

(That's my hope anyway.)

Yeah I made the comment earlier that IF Fire Emblem is to get someone new, Lyn might be the way to go because of her clear popularity. She's the only of the top 4 Fire Emblem characters (according to a fan vote) to not currently be playable in Smash, and since there's not a brand new game for the "recency" argument (the only thing that could argue that is a remake, which should be considered), I think she has one of the better chances among FE characters.
But personal bias aside, unless every character manages to return to this game, i find it a little more likely we don't get anything new for Fire Emblem, at least til DLC.

 

[Ura]

I've seen the words "needs" "more" and "representation" next to each other too many times since the game got announced.
It honestly baffles me that some people support characters for that reason.

It is a dumb reason as a sole reason for inclusion but it does have it's merits in some cases.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

All this talk of FE and no one has even mentioned the only character worth adding

He'd have been in Smash 4, but he had some poisoned mutton on the day he was going to make his debut so they had to find someone else.

 

[N3ON]

Honestly, I'd prefer semi-clone newcomer over Melee-style clones this time around.

I mean I think the hierarchy for almost everyone is:
Original character > whatever Wolf is > semi-clone > near-direct clone

So I'm right there with you.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Honestly, I'd prefer semi-clone newcomer over Melee-style clones this time around.

I would love to see what they could do with Dr. Mario & Dark Pit given more time this time around. I just worry that it would make them harder to implement in future games, because people will be expecting the semi-clone versions.

So I'd rather them be full clones than to not have them at all.

 

[?????????????]

It is a dumb reason as a sole reason for inclusion but it does have it's merits in some cases.

I mean, yes, it's true I believe the Donkey Kong series "deserves more representation."

But that's because I think it has so much to offer. The series has run for a long time, introduced many characters with unique abilities that are well-liked, and is currently only "represented" by DK and Diddy; pretty much the bare minimum.

 

[Ura]

whatever Wolf is

You know with everyone debating all the time about how much of a "clone" Wolf is, I think that's actually a very nice compromise.

 

[Deleted member]

It is a dumb reason as a sole reason for inclusion but it does have it's merits in some cases.

I need you to explain this because the way I see it, K. Rool could lose a large portion of his fanbase if we get Dixie, Cranky and/or Funky.

 

[?????????????]

I need you to explain this because the way I see it, K. Rool could lose a large portion of his fanbase if we get Dixie, Cranky and/or Funky.

I don't think that's the case. Lots of people like K. Rool because he's the VILLAIN.

Villains are fun.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Wolf has ascended to his own tier of "cloneship" that everyone might be able to agree on lmao. But for real, Wolf didn't reeeally feel like a clone to me. Yeah his specials are obviously inspired by Fox, so he's a clone in that regard. But man, did that guy feel different when playing.

 

[Ura]

I mean, yes, it's true I believe the Donkey Kong series "deserves more representation."

But that's because I think it has so much to offer. The series has run for a long time, introduced many characters with unique abilities that are well-liked, and is currently only "represented" by DK and Diddy; pretty much the bare minimum.

Yeah those are my thoughts exactly. DK is a series large enough to warrant more characters than it has already.

Not to mention K. Rool was one of Nintendo's most iconic villains back in the day and still is in a sense. He also has a unique charm about him that I think a casual fan would find appealing about him (his overall goofiness yet insanity).

I need you to explain this because the way I see it, K. Rool could lose a large portion of his fanbase if we get Dixie, Cranky and/or Funky.

Yes but unlike them he's a lot more notable in his franchise. Dixie being the exception but between the two I would say K. Rool has the most significant presence in his franchise even if he wasn't in the Returns games.

 

[Fenriraga]

Problem #1

Problem #2

Why would Nintendo/Sakurai want to promote a niche FE2 character in Smash Bros when 1) FE fatigue is at an all time high and 2) The game is dated and hardly even relevant to it's own series?

Problem #3

SoV didn't do nearly as well as the games that were before it. It did something like 500K-600K which is a fraction of what Awakening and Fates did. You can make all the excuses you want in the world for it's performance but if FE is truly the major IP Nintendo makes it out to be, it wouldn't do those kinds of numbers. Period.

Which is why I said that despite me not liking the idea of an FE16 character (and trust me I wouldn't), I would still understand the benefits for the inclusion of said character. There is none with those two characters.

And since you pulled that card again which I honestly expected you to do, I might as well. You know what game did better than SoV? *drum roll* Advance (mind you it's not Advanced thank you very much) Wars. Call me salty all you want because I don't really care (no offense to you of course). Thank you very much.

Problem #1 with your problem #1, you pointed that out as a problem yet STILL used Advance Wars as the basis of your argument in the following post. If you're going to complain about someone pointing out you using that card, then don't use that card.

Problem #2 with your problem #2, Yes, FE2 is niche. SoV is not. Nintendo didn't advertise SoV nearly as heavily as Awakening and Fates, so they didn't have lofty expectations of it to begin with, likely because it's a remake. At this point in time SoV is practically a new entry in the series with the changes it made. Also, the FE Fatiuge you mentioned is only in the close circles of the Smash community. There is no tangible proof of it being a widespread problem. Sakurai did address the number of FE characters, yes, but that in no way means new characters are out of the question, and SoV IS the most recent official game in the series (And at this rate STILL will be with how quiet they have been about the new one). Not selling as well as the previous 3DS titles does not in anyway mean it sold poorly. If Nintendo said it sold well, then that means it met their expectations. That means it was a success.

Problem #3 with your problem #3, Advance Wars has been out for years on end, no duh it's probably outsold SoV, which only just came up on a year.

 

[masterluigi1]

I've seen the words "needs" "more" and "representation" next to each other too many times since the game got announced.
It honestly baffles me that some people support characters for that reason.

Sakurai himself confirms he takes into consideration reresentation in series so people saying the "rep" argument is bad really arn't paying attention.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

This is the interview.

Thanks for the link, but I didn't see the quote as I remembered it after a quick skim.

I probably misremembered it. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Opossum]

Problem #1

Problem #2

Why would Nintendo/Sakurai want to promote a niche FE2 character in Smash Bros when 1) FE fatigue is at an all time high and 2) The game is dated and hardly even relevant to it's own series?

Problem #3

SoV didn't do nearly as well as the games that were before it. It did something like 500K-600K which is a fraction of what Awakening and Fates did. You can make all the excuses you want in the world for it's performance but if FE is truly the major IP Nintendo makes it out to be, it wouldn't do those kinds of numbers. Period.

Which is why I said that despite me not liking the idea of an FE16 character (and trust me I wouldn't), I would still understand the benefits for the inclusion of said character. There is none with those two characters.

And since you pulled that card again which I honestly expected you to do, I might as well. You know what game did better than SoV? *drum roll* Advance (mind you it's not Advanced thank you very much) Wars. Call me salty all you want because I don't really care (no offense to you of course). Thank you very much.

So tell me again, why are you acting as though nothing has changed since Gaiden? If Shadows of Valentia never happened, you better believe it'd never get a character in Smash. But you're acting as though SoV never happened, and as such are arguing in poor faith.

People aren't requesting an FE2 character. They're requesting an FE15 character. And despite it being a remake of FE2, those requests aren't for the same thing.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Yeah those are my thoughts exactly. DK is a series large enough to warrant more characters than it has already.

Not to mention K. Rool was one of Nintendo's most iconic villains back in the day and still is in a sense. He also has a unique charm about him that I think a casual fan would find appealing about him (his overall goofiness yet insanity).

Yeah I would imagine that even kids who are too young to have played DKC games would still find the character interesting and endearing in some way. He has so much personality, and he's a Krocodile for god's sake. That's cool to a little kid (I think)

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I think Lip is a character that's not to be taken lightly. With less and less shoe-in characters and this game being an expansion to a very complete roster, it's important to be aware of the history of the Puzzle League series.

Puzzle Leaque is a series that has been under our noses, sprinkled throughout Nintendo's history.

• Panel de Pon (Super Famicom, Japan) (1995)
• Tetris Attack (SNES, North America) (1996)
• Tetris Attack (Game Boy, North America) (1996)
• BS Yoshi's Panepon (Super Famicom/Satellaview, Japan) (1996)
• Pokémon Puzzle Challenge (Game Boy Color) (2000)
• Pokémon Puzzle League (Nintendo 64) (2000)
• Nintendo Puzzle Collection (Nintendo GameCube - multipack) (2003)
• Dr. Mario & Puzzle League (Game Boy Advance - multipack) (2005)
• Planet Puzzle League / Puzzle League DS / Panel de Pon DS (Nintendo DS) (2007)
• Chotto Panel de Pon/Puzzle League Express (DSiWare) (2009)
• Animal Crossing: Puzzle League, a minigame included in the Welcome Amiibo expansion of Animal Crossing: New Leaf (Nintendo 3DS) (2016)

We've yet to see a puzzle game character besides Dr. Mario, and this is the puzzle game that belongs to Nintendo. It's also worth mentioning Lip & Panel De Pon have been referenced throughout Smash games in an almost foreshadowing way. Lip's stick appeared as an item in Melee and Kirby's rock ability has a garbage block. So this character and game hasn't exactly been ignored.

 

[T-Hell]

I don't think that's the case. Lots of people like K. Rool because he's the VILLAIN.

Villains are fun.

And because it would add variety to the DK representation. I'd rather have a pirate-king fat crocodile over another ape. Dixie can join though as long as K.Rool does as well. Those 4 DK reps are perfect imo.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Sakurai himself confirms he takes into consideration reresentation in series so people saying the "rep" argument is bad really arn't paying attention.

Yes, but most of those who use the "needs more representation" argument tend to forget there's more to representation than characters.

There's also stages, music, trophies, items and even some palette swaps represent something.

Yet, only the characters ever pop up when that kind of argument happens.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think that's the case. Lots of people like K. Rool because he's the VILLAIN.

Villains are fun.

And what will happen to K. Rool's fanbase when we get Boom Boom, Dark Mind, Zant, Garon, and General Scales?
Same. ****ing. Point.

Sakurai himself confirms he takes into consideration reresentation in series so people saying the "rep" argument is bad really arn't paying attention.

Not the point I was arguing.
My point was that franchises don't "need" more reps for the sake of increasing numbers.

 

[N3ON]

Mmm, I do think getting one DK character will decrease the demand for all the others. Some will remain, sure, but a big part of the demand seems to be for a "new DK character/rep". So once we get one, the people who were really only in it for that may scatter. Plus popularity will also dip with lowered future expectations. But it's relative, K. Rool would walk away with more residual popularity than, like, Cranky. Because some of it is indeed specific to the character.

You know what they say, a sinking tide lowers all boats.
They say that.

Trust me.

 

[?????????????]

I think Lip is a character that's not to be taken lightly. With less and less shoe-in characters and this game being an expansion to a very complete roster, it's important to be aware of the history of the Puzzle League series.

I've never known how to feel about Lip...

A part of me says it doesn't seem particularly likely, but it seems as likely as any other random Nintendo choice (personally, I want a Rhythm Heaven character).

But I like the idea of a puzzle-themed fighter, and I think Lip may be the best choice to showcase that.

 

[Edgelord_197]

I think Fire Emblem should have 5 characters max, seeing how bad Corrin reception was in smash 4.

Im not quite sure who the new FE character will be in smash.
I think it be too late to promote Echoes, since it will be a year
FE Switch hasn't come out yet
Maybe Lyn? But I guess it depends when they finalized the roster

 

[Fastblade5035]

On the topic of Celica, imagine the reaction if she was revealed to be a Marth clone since FEW already did that

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aNl5LBORW9U

I mean we got Girl Marth, Ginger Marth... next step is to combine them and get Ginger Girl Marth

 

[Arklos]

Problem #1

Problem #2

Why would Nintendo/Sakurai want to promote a niche FE2 character in Smash Bros when 1) FE fatigue is at an all time high and 2) The game is dated and hardly even relevant to it's own series?

Problem #3

SoV didn't do nearly as well as the games that were before it. It did something like 500K-600K which is a fraction of what Awakening and Fates did. You can make all the excuses you want in the world for it's performance but if FE is truly the major IP Nintendo makes it out to be, it wouldn't do those kinds of numbers. Period.

Which is why I said that despite me not liking the idea of an FE16 character (and trust me I wouldn't), I would still understand the benefits for the inclusion of said character. There is none with those two characters.

And since you pulled that card again which I honestly expected you to do, I might as well. You know what game did better than SoV? *drum roll* Advance (mind you it's not Advanced thank you very much) Wars. Call me salty all you want because I don't really care (no offense to you of course). Thank you very much.

Niche SoV character? The character that was the top FE's second Choose your Legend poll, only behind Hector by a bit if you combine the male and females? Plus, remakes hardly ever do as well as well as a new game would, so thinking it would sell as much as Awakening and Fates is foolish, especially when its a remake of the black sheep of FE. That would be like comparing a remake of Zelda 2 and saying Zelda's not a major IP since it didn't do as well as BotW.

 

[Opossum]

On the topic of Celica, imagine the reaction if she was revealed to be a Marth clone since FEW already did that

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aNl5LBORW9U

I mean we got Girl Marth, Ginger Marth... next step is to combine them and get Ginger Girl Marth

I mean to be fair she was literally added to Warriors at the last minute as a request from Nintendo, haha. But yeah, her being a clone in that game is a near universally derided decision.

 

[Camc10]

Who else is there left to add in the current mainstream? Or who else is there left to add who is Iconic and Relevant?

 

[?????????????]

And what will happen to K. Rool's fanbase when we get Boom Boom, Dark Mind, Zant, Garon, and General Scales?
Same. ****ing. Point.

Well, to me...

King K. Rool still counts as one of Nintendo's best and most recurring villains to NOT already be playable in Smash Bros. I'll agree that's debatable (since he actually hasn't "recurred" in a long time...), but the only other one I see that way is Ridley. I'd love to eventually see all the big, all-star villains in Smash.

Well...there's also Andross. But I'm fine with Wolf instead of Andross. He might ACTUALLY be too big..

 

[Opossum]

Who else is there left to add in the current mainstream? Or who else is there left to add who is Iconic and Relevant?

Isabelle comes to mind.

 

[Ura]

Problem #1 with your problem #1, you pointed that out as a problem yet STILL used Advance Wars as the basis of your argument in the following post. If you're going to complain about someone pointing out you using that card, then don't use that card.

Problem #2 with your problem #2, Yes, FE2 is niche. SoV is not. At this point in time SoV is practically a new entry in the series. Also, the FE Fatiuge you mentioned is only in the close circles of the Smash community. Sakurai did address the number of FE characters, yes, but that in no way means new characters are out of the question, and SoV IS the most recent official game in the seires. Not selling as well as the previous 3DS titles does not in anyway mean it sold poorly. If Nintendo said it sold well, then that means it met their expectations. That means it was a success.

Problem #3 with your problem #3, Advance Wars has been out for years on end, no duh it's probably outsold SoV.

#1 was supposed to be the fact that people mispell AW and you took it seriously so that's on you.

#2 FE fatigue is a very real thing and was even addressed by Sakurai himself in his Famitsu article. Don't go throwing around things like close circles because that's a friggin copout. I see this sentiment just about everywhere outside Smashboards. Nintendo can say all the things they want but the sales units for the game says otherwise in comparison to it's predecessors While it doesn't eliminate the possibility of additional FE characters (the FE16 example as I mentioned before), it sure as hell would warrant some niche FE game not needing to continue the overrepresntation of the franchise

#3 Still no excuse from the supposed "major Nintendo IP". He brought it up so I threw it right back. Plain and simple.

So tell me again, why are you acting as though nothing has changed since Gaiden? If Shadows of Valentia never happened, you better believe it'd never get a character in Smash. But you're acting as though SoV never happened, and as such are arguing in poor faith.

People aren't requesting an FE2 character. They're requesting an FE15 character. And despite it being a remake of FE2, those requests aren't for the same thing.

They might as well be because said game is a remake. Why a small part of the franchise deserves representation is beyond me.

Niche SoV character? The character that was the top FE's second Choose your Legend poll, only behind Hector by a bit if you combine the male and females? Plus, remakes hardly ever do as well as well as a new game would, so thinking it would sell as much as Awakening and Fates is foolish, especially when its a remake of the black sheep of FE. That would be like comparing a remake of Zelda 2 and saying Zelda's not a major IP since it didn't do as well as BotW.

Zelda remakes pull in units in the millions. Bad comparisons.

Being popular within the FE fanbase doesn't warrant inclusion.

 

[Fenriraga]

On the topic of Celica, imagine the reaction if she was revealed to be a Marth clone since FEW already did that

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aNl5LBORW9U

I mean we got Girl Marth, Ginger Marth... next step is to combine them and get Ginger Girl Marth

Good ol' time constraints. Angering FE fans in both Smash AND Fire Emblem one step at a time.

 

[Retroend]

I just thought if something. If pyrosphere returns as a stage then we'll have to confirm that Ridley isn't playable.

 

[Yonder]

I forgot, I have a reason to post this song again:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw4H65XxTAo

 

[?????????????]

Isabelle comes to mind.

There was a time I would've laughed at that.

But times change. That seems plausible, and I wouldn't even mind.