Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Chandeelure]

Fire Emblem is more than big enough of a series to warrant the amount of characters it currently has.

I wouldn't mind a couple more!

Nice try, Sakurai.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

This logic only goes so far. Imagine there were 10 clones of a character, and they all played basically the same. Would that be alright? Imagine fifteen. That's more characters, it would be easy-ish for the development team. But where do you draw the line? That's the subjective part. Some may say ten, some may say five, some may say two, and some may say one.

It's not hating a character; people just have different lines in the sand where superfluousness begins.

This was a senseless argument the last time it was made. There is a massive difference between "Maybe the game would benefit from allowing 10 clones" and "Let's have 10 clones of the same character." I'm not sure there are enough variables in the framedata for your slippery slope to even be possible, let alone relevant. If we used Fox and Falco in Melee, do you really think it would even be possible to produce 15 more clones that are all as different from the original and each other as Fox and Falco are? I don't see how that would even be done.
But if a clone was made of every single character in the game, taking advantage of different kinds of base moves leading to different possibilities for changes, it would actually be pretty interesting. Granted, you probably couldn't find important characters who could be used as a clone in every case (Kirby has nothing, since Gooey is too different and Shadow Kirby is featureless and irrelevant), but mechanically it might actually benefit the game.
The biggest deficit is that the whole "adjective character" thing would get old since you'd have Masked Dedede, Blood Falcon, Dark Pit, Dark Mewtwo, Dark Meta Knight, Dark Samus, and so on. But there's no reason that Dark Samus couldn't be an interesting character, whose changes relative to Samus have nothing to do with Dark Pit's changes relative to Pit.

Personally, I'd actually really like to see Blood Falcon playable, not as a falcondorf but as a scumbag version of Falcon, with a dash-cancelable Falcon Punch, a spike on Falcon Dive, a Lucina'd forward air, and so on.

 

[?????????????]

I mean no disrespect, but FE is not big in the way of Animal Crossing.

...???

 

[PhantomShab]

If you don't care about what I have to say why did you reply to any of my posts in the first place?

To agree with you but you wanted to turn it into a debate that I wasn't even looking for.

 

[Ura]

With all the FE fatigue right now, the last thing they need to do is add a character from a niche FE game that didn't even sell all that great.

At least with an FE16 character I could understand the merits of their inclusion despite not liking it but there's ZERO reason to add Alm/Celcia (however the hell you spell her name). I would be beyond pissed off if niche FE2 characters make it to Smash but no one from AW or even GS can get in.

Sorry if that offends supporters of those characters but it's true.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Personally, I feel like at least part of the reason FE gets some of the animosity it does from Smash fans is that in a sense it kinda feels like a non-Nintendo series. That probably sounds kinda weird, but from my experience I've seen a lot of FE fans who aren't all that in to other Nintendo series, and a lot of fans of Nintendo who don't care about Fire Emblem.

I'm sure you could dissect all sorts of reasons why that might be, or maybe my personal experience is totally off the mark. Who knows.

 

[?????????????]

Oh, I missed the part where we were talking about the Gaiden remake.

I don't really think we'll get something new for that. If we get anything, it'll be from the upcoming Switch title.

But that's just my guess.

 

[Ura]

Nice try, Sakurai.

Sakurai confirmed to have several dupes on this site to make us accept FE.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

To agree with you but you wanted to turn it into a debate that I wasn't even looking for.

Well my apologizes for misinterpreting this following post as being pretty passive aggressive. It provided no context and seemed like you were saying "I can't believe you're dumb enough to say that".

oh my god lmao

 

[Cyn]

Reminder: When posting, please remember to make sure your posts have "meaningful" content.

 

[T-Hell]

Mewtwo should definately and permanently stay in Smash as a playable character. He is, without a question, the most iconic and popular legendary pokemon, and the fact that Smash has a legendary pokemon representative is a cool thing and a logic decision.

 

[IronTed]

...???

When people say big, it's an objective term. Animal Crossing, Mario, Zelda, those are the big Nintendo IP's. To suggest FE is on that level isn't accurate, at all.

 

[?????????????]

Reminder: When posting, please remember to make sure your posts have "meaningful" content.

Sorry, I'll make sure to use complete sentences next time rather than letting the implications stand...

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Echoes is kind of interesting because we haven't had a remake of an FE game that didn't already have a character in smash as the most recent game in the series before.

Personally, I doubt we'll see either Alm or Celica playable. don't really see anything they bring to the table that ike and Robin, respectively, don't already bring. But again, who knows.

 

[Ura]

Reminder: When posting, please remember to make sure your posts have "meaningful" content.

Tell that to everyone else on this site lol.

Mewtwo should definately and permanently stay in Smash as a playable character. He is, without a question, the most iconic and popular legendary pokemon, and the fact that Smash has a legendary pokemon representative is a cool thing and a logic decision.

Yeah I feel Mewtwo should be here to stay. He's the character most fans, hardcore and casual alike associate with PKMN not to mention one of the most popular. I feel that he should have more priority than Jigglypuff who I still don't want to see get cut.

 

[PhantomShab]

Well my apologizes for misinterpreting this following post as being pretty passive aggressive. It provided no context and seemed like you were saying "I can't believe you're dumb enough to say that".

I thought it was funny because you admitted that you'd defend something like that. I've seen Sakurai fanboys (not saying you are one) defend literally every dumb decision he's ever made like he can do no wrong.

But for real though a decision like that just isn't worth defending if it ever happened.

 

[Cyn]

Tell that to everyone else on this site lol.

Would if I could. Unfortunately, I can't be everywhere at once and at all hours of the day. I'm not the Chronomage.

 

[Radical Bones]

Yeah I feel Mewtwo should be here to stay. He's the character most fans, hardcore and casual alike associate with PKMN not to mention one of the most popular. I feel that he should have more priority than Jigglypuff who I still don't want to see get cut.

Realistically, Sakurai should keep all Gen 1 Pokemon in Smash because casual players are much more likely to recognise them.

I still want Mimikyu though.

 

[IronTed]

Are there any suggestions for the next retro character? I've heard Takamura but I really have no idea.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I thought it was funny because you admitted that you'd defend something like that. I've seen Sakurai fanboys (not saying you are one) defend literally every dumb decision he's ever made like he can literally do no wrong.

But for real though a decision like that just isn't worth defending if it ever happened.

I mean I personally enjoy Ganon the way he is. However I enjoy him as a moveset, and as I said earlier, I don't really like the way his current moveset lines up with Ganon fantasy. If they slapped his moveset on Black Shadow and reworked Ganon, I'd be ecstatic. I really like Ganon as a character in Legend of Zelda. I was really going off of what history we have available when making these points, along with the knowledge that technically Sakurai knows Dark Pit better than anyone else, as Sakurai created the character in the first place. So I'd defend WHY exactly Sakurai changed Dark Pit over Ganon, however I'm not necessarily saying I'd prefer he change Dark Pit over Ganon. Glad we could clear that up.

 

[Ura]

Realistically, Sakurai should keep all Gen 1 Pokemon in Smash because casual players are much more likely to recognise them.

I still want Mimikyu though.

I agree. Even though there's been a resentment against Gen 1 in recent years (particularly among newer players) those are the Mon's we all remember from childhood If anything if PKMN were to get the axe in any installment it should be the most recent addition like Greninja. Lucario also I think is a staple of both Smash and PKMN so I don't see him getting cut.

Are there any suggestions for the next retro character? I've heard Takamura but I really have no idea.

Crossing all my fingers and toes for Andy from Advance Wars. It's the series 30th anniversary so now is better a time than ever (even though i'm not that optimistic).

 

[Megadoomer]

Are there any suggestions for the next retro character? I've heard Takamura but I really have no idea.

I'd like to see Mike Jones from StarTropics or Sukapon from Joy Mech Fight, but I'm not sure if they're all that likely. Sukapon is from a Japan-exclusive fighting game that hasn't even gotten a trophy in Smash before, while Mike Jones is from a pair of games that were never released in Japan, making it unlikely that Sakurai's even heard of them. (they didn't even get a sticker in Brawl)

 

[PhantomShab]

I mean I personally enjoy Ganon the way he is. However I enjoy him as a moveset, and as I said earlier, I don't really like the way his current moveset lines up with Ganon fantasy. If they slapped his moveset on Black Shadow and reworked Ganon, I'd be ecstatic. I really like Ganon as a character in Legend of Zelda. I was really going off of what history we have available when making these points, along with the knowledge that technically Sakurai knows Dark Pit better than anyone else, as Sakurai created the character in the first place. So I'd defend WHY exactly Sakurai changed Dark Pit over Ganon, however I'm not necessarily saying I'd prefer he change Dark Pit over Ganon. Glad we could clear that up.

I like Ganon as a character too which is why I hate how Sakurai has kept him as a clone. Considering how popular of a Nintendo and gaming villain in general he is, it's honestly nothing short of an embarrassment that he's still a clone.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't mind seeing Jigglypuff get cut.
Easily the most outdated Smash character ever.

 

[Chandeelure]

Would if I could. Unfortunately, I can't be everywhere at once and at all hours of the day. I'm not the Chronomage.

Hey! that thing appeared in the Castlevania game I played the other day!
I finished it in 2 days lol.

It would be cool to have Castlevania representation in Smash.
It doesn't have to be a newcomer, a stage or just music would be cool.

 

[T-Hell]

Are there any suggestions for the next retro character? I've heard Takamura but I really have no idea.

I've seen some people mentioning the Excitebikes and now I'm really curious to see how that would work. Or any motor/vehicle character for that matter.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I guess I would say that Greninja holds the least as far as bargaining tools for staying go, however I really don't think ANY of the Pokemon should be in line to be cut. He's the only Pokemon who was new for the younger generation as it stands. There's mostly Gen 1s which is fine because thats where it all started. Then we have a middle ground in Lucario as a gen 4, and now we have Greninja for the younger generation at gen 6. I think they're all very important to the different eras of Pokemon and the generation of kids attached.
As a Fire Emblem fan boy, I'd rather see Corrin and Lucina go before Greninja.

 

[Opossum]

With all the FE fatigue right now, the last thing they need to do is add a character from a niche FE game that didn't even sell all that great.

At least with an FE16 character I could understand the merits of their inclusion despite not liking it but there's ZERO reason to add Alm/Celcia (however the hell you spell her name). I would be beyond pissed off if niche FE2 characters make it to Smash but no one from AW or even GS can get in.

Sorry if that offends supporters of those characters but it's true.

Nintendo themselves said Shadows of Valentia sold well, so to say otherwise is baseless. And considering the characters from it are incredibly popular among fans and IS continues to support it (it's getting it's own full art book this year), it's far from a niche game as far as Fire Emblem is concerned. Your anger seems misplaced/coming from a place of salt over not getting a new Advanced Wars, as you implied, honestly.

Echoes is kind of interesting because we haven't had a remake of an FE game that didn't already have a character in smash as the most recent game in the series before.

Personally, I doubt we'll see either Alm or Celica playable. don't really see anything they bring to the table that ike and Robin, respectively, don't already bring. But again, who knows.

Alm I can see going the way of Chrom, sadly, but Celica could definitely be unique. I posted my own moveset in the Celica thread if you're interested. The link is in my signature.

 

[Ura]

I wouldn't mind seeing Jigglypuff get cut.
Easily the most outdated Smash character ever.

But also one of the most iconic characters of Smash Bros.

It's crazy to think she was intended to be cut in every game that followed and still managed to stay while others were cut.

 

[Cyn]

Hey! that thing appeared in the Castlevania game I played the other day!
I finished it in 2 days lol.

It would be cool to have Castlevania representation in Smash.
It doesn't have to be a newcomer, a stage or just music would be cool.

Chronomage is one of my favorite enemies in any game. A monocled rabbit that controls time? Castlevania at its best. Lol.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

You will probably be disappointed XD

Oh, I know I will, but I'll still hope for it either way

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I like Ganon as a character too which is why I hate how Sakurai has kept him as a clone. Considering how popular of a Nintendo and gaming villain in general he is, it's honestly nothing short of an embarrassment that he's still a clone.

I completely agree with the sentiment here. I really wish Ganon could be different, I just also want his moveset preserved in some way because he's hella fun in For Glory. He's probably my most played character lmao.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Do some people here still not know that Sakurai worried about Fire Emblem having too many characters in Smash? Here's a quote from Sakurai.

"There are too many Fire Emblem characters! The decision to include Corrin was admittedly strategic, but I genuinely worried we might be adding too many characters from the series. That said, once the FE Fates developers shared their idea with me, I knew I could make Corrin into an interesting fighter."

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Do you guys expect to see another surprise character?

Absoluetly.

I don't understand this "rep" stuff. The series a character is from should be incidental. I don't care how many characters a series has and I don't want a series character just because they are from that series.

Sakurai confirmed that he does take into account series representation, so it's clear he himself takes "reps" into account. It's just not the be-all-end-all of roster decisions.

Every character has fans, it's obvious that if they cut even the most unpopular, undeserving or bad one, some people will want it back.

That's why cuts are disliked.

Pretty much any character cut is going to get a huge backlash. The biggest exception is Dr. Mario, seeing as the only Brawl cuts that got a huge backlash were Mewtwo and Roy.

Its still a niche franchise. Sure it grew popular because of marriage system, but its no Mario or Legend of Zelda title.
Its a B tier series at best

I wouldn't call it niche at this point.

No people would defend that as well. And honestly I think that makes as much sense as the current imbalance.

That is actually true. If you brought up the idea of FE having 6 characters before it happened, far fewer people would have vocally defended it.

Do some people here still not know that Sakurai worried about Fire Emblem having too many characters in Smash? Here's a quote from Sakurai.

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

To be honest, Given that Pokemon has recieved multiple cuts in Brawl and Smash 4, I can see the possibility of more than 1 FE character getting cut this time.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Alm I can see going the way of Chrom, sadly, but Celica could definitely be unique. I posted my own moveset in the Celica thread if you're interested. The link is in my signature.

Yeah, she could be pretty unique, but you could also look at her base abilities and say: "She uses swords but also uses Mageic. Doesn't Robin already do that?"

Don't misunderstand though, I love Echoes and would love if she or Alm made it in to the game.

 

[Fenriraga]

Y'all are forgetting the single most popular and best female in the Fire Emblem series.

Lyn will join Mac in the Assist Trophy promotion club, mark my words.

(That's my hope anyway.)

Her sword style is very different from every other FE character in Smash right now, so she'd be quite unique.

 

[N3ON]

This was a senseless argument the last time it was made. There is a massive difference between "Maybe the game would benefit from allowing 10 clones" and "Let's have 10 clones of the same character." I'm not sure there are enough variables in the framedata for your slippery slope to even be possible, let alone relevant. If we used Fox and Falco in Melee, do you really think it would even be possible to produce 15 more clones that are all as different from the original and each other as Fox and Falco are? I don't see how that would even be done.
But if a clone was made of every single character in the game, taking advantage of different kinds of base moves leading to different possibilities for changes, it would actually be pretty interesting. Granted, you probably couldn't find important characters who could be used as a clone in every case (Kirby has nothing, since Gooey is too different and Shadow Kirby is featureless and irrelevant), but mechanically it might actually benefit the game.
The biggest deficit is that the whole "adjective character" thing would get old since you'd have Masked Dedede, Blood Falcon, Dark Pit, Dark Mewtwo, Dark Meta Knight, Dark Samus, and so on. But there's no reason that Dark Samus couldn't be an interesting character, whose changes relative to Samus have nothing to do with Dark Pit's changes relative to Pit.

Personally, I'd actually really like to see Blood Falcon playable, not as a falcondorf but as a scumbag version of Falcon, with a dash-cancelable Falcon Punch, a spike on Falcon Dive, a Lucina'd forward air, and so on.

You've missed the point of my argument, technical capability or lack thereof was never the focus. Ten clones was meant to be purposely exaggerated, it was to illustrate a situation I figured many would take issue with.

My argument was really only compounded by you saying it would be interesting should every character have a clone. That may be your opinion, which for sure you are entitled to, but it directly harkens to what I was saying: ultimately the threshold for replication is subjective, as I think it's safe to say "everyone gets a clone" mentality is not something that will be universally desired, even if there were an obvious clone for every character, mechanically relevant or not.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Absoluetly.



Sakurai confirmed that he does take into account series representation, so it's clear he himself takes "reps" into account. It's just not the be-all-end-all of roster decisions.

My issue is that it seems to be all people care about on Smashboards.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

I'm surprised so many people think greninja will be gone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he like one of the only smash 4 characters that got added without some crazy gimmick? Nor counting DLC ofc. Sakurai was also pretty proud of how quickly he could whip up a move set for him.

He's also like the second coming of charizard in the pokemon community, he's insanely popular. I just don't really see him going anywhere tbh.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You've missed the point of my argument, technical capability or lack thereof was never the focus. Ten clones was meant to be purposely exaggerated, it was to illustrate a situation I figured many would take issue with.

My argument was only compounded by you saying it would be interesting should every character have a clone. That may be your opinion, which for sure you are entitled to, but it directly harkens to what I was saying: ultimately the threshold for replication is subjective, as I think it's safe to say "everyone gets a clone" mentality is not something that will be universally desired, even if there were an obvious clone for every character, mechanically relevant or not.

Honestly, I'd prefer semi-clone newcomer over Melee-style clones this time around.