Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PhantomShab]

I mean I'd defend him for it...

oh my god lmao

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

There isnt anyone new to come in though since FE Switch is so far out we haven't even seen it.

Unless they do Alm or Celica but they aren't exactly new

Knowing the time frame between games and the expected landing zone of the Smash release date, I kind of see this as an opportunity to add someone from Fire Emblem who is just flat out popular. I get that people don't really want another FE character, but if we do get one, I think any character who placed well in the CYL Fire Emblem Heroes vote has a shot. While I want Lyn out of my own personal bias, I could truly see her getting her shot now. She's the only character of the top 4 who isn't playable in Smash, and she's been an AT in the past 2 games. Alm and Celica have the best "recency" argument, but that might not be the defining factor this time around.

oh my god lmao

Thank you for your valid counterpoint in this discussion. There's plenty of strong arguments for why Lucina isn't the most important clone, and also solid arguments for why Dark Pit would be more likely to get a rework (or even just return, for that matter) than Lucina. I posted them just a few minutes ago.

 

[Deleted member]

21 new ones in the base vanilla game, counting clones.

Probably about 19 without clones.

Actually, no, it's 15 in the base game, 18 if you count the clones and then 21 by counting the DLC.

There isnt anyone new to come in though since FE Switch is so far out we haven't even seen it.

Unless they do Alm or Celica but they aren't exactly new

It's still said to come out this year, so we'll definitely see it at E3.
The question is if Sakurai knows anything about the new game, which is doubtful since I'm inclined to believe development started at around the time they announced it back in the FE Direct.

I think something related to Heroes is likely though, I could see Lyn due to her winning the CYL tbh.

I don't care tbh, I just want a new FE character, regardless of who they may be
Though if I could choose, I'd pick someone who either wields a lance or an axe.
*Cough cough* hint hint *cough cough*

 

[Cosmic77]

Is FE really that over-represented? Since Awakening it's been one of Nintendo's most successful series, and Heroes has pretty much cemented it as one of Nintendo's biggest moneymakers. Plus it has a MASSIVE cast of characters to draw from.

Much as some people might wish otherwise, I doubt we'll be seeing any significant reduction in the number of FE characters in Smash soon.

i'm guessing we'll at least see Marth, Ike, and Robin return, plus probably one of Lucina, Lyn, or a main character from whatever FE16 turns out to be. Or maybe even Heroes. who knows.

Heroes was a massive success, but Warriors greatly underperformed.

You have to acknowledge the franchise's low points too. FE is popular, but not every title is a guaranteed hit that will rake in cash.

 

[Chandeelure]

Heroes was a massive success, but Warriors greatly underperformed.

Should have been Dream Land Warriors.

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 138851
This better be a joke.
If not, I just want to say that Pit still has some fan support and Sakurai does like Kid Icarus a lot, considering he himself has made Kid Icarus Uprising. I think Pit and any other Kid Icarus should stay, they fit nice in Smash Brothers. Smash Brothers helped Pit a lot, so I think Pit should stay.

Wasn't it obvious that it was a joke?

It's not like I don't want Bandana Dee in the game, but I really don't see the appeal. Anyone have a good sales pitch handy?

First spear user.

And I'm considering putting some of the users here on ignore. This may surprise some of you but, I have some serious anger issues IRL. I had enough self control not to respond to James' "clever" bait, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't annoyed... ESPECIALLY after a long day of work.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Heroes was a massive success, but Warriors greatly underperformed.

You have to acknowledge the franchise's low points too. FE is popular, but not every title is a guaranteed hit that will rake in cash.

In regards to Warriors, I feel we can't take a spin-off title as much of a reason to doubt the current success of a franchise. Warriors games were really niche to begin with, adding the Fire Emblem reskin and a few mechanics doesn't change what the game is. Hyrule Warriors was more successful because EVERYBODY knows what Legend of Zelda is, but I don't think it was ever expected that FE Warriors was going to be a massive hit.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Is FE really that over-represented? Since Awakening it's been one of Nintendo's most successful series, and Heroes has pretty much cemented it as one of Nintendo's biggest moneymakers. Plus it has a MASSIVE cast of characters to draw from.

Much as some people might wish otherwise, I doubt we'll be seeing any significant reduction in the number of FE characters in Smash soon.

i'm guessing we'll at least see Marth, Ike, and Robin return, plus probably one of Lucina, Lyn, or a main character from whatever FE16 turns out to be. Or maybe even Heroes. who knows.

I guess people think it's over-repped because there's a lot of percieved same-ness with the characters, so it doesn't feel as diverse as something like Mario or Pokemon that also has a ton of characters.

I'd guess the unique ones are safe (Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin), with the others likely as well (at the very least as DLC).

 

[Originality]

I literally just told you. The director of the game told you years ago. There's literally a quote out there from like 2014 where he explains not wanting to give Dark Pit the same Final Smash or Victory theme or taunts. The characters are separate because it's necessary for them to be recorded as such.

What is this "Why not make him a costume?" crap? What does that solve?

Does it give us time to replace him with someone else? No. Does it make his fans happy? No. All making him a costume would do is piss people off.

I'm so tired of this. I'm just gonna start ignoring people who bring up this "Make them a costume!" BS. It's actually offensive. I'm so glad Sakurai doesn't listen to "fans" who complain about free characters.

I said in my original post that'd I'd rather he get his own moveset or at least be a semi clone over anything else, frankly I could say it's more offensive to the character that he's "Pit but with this" instead of what he could be. I don't recall any uproar from pikmin fans when Alph was just a costume of Olimar

 

[A Distant Demon]

but Warriors greatly underperformed.

If you base it on Hyrule Warriors maybe. But if you base it on most Warriors spinoffs, especially one with a drastically more niche IP and probably a way lower budget (speculation on my part but still) then it did about what you would expect.

Definitely not a bomba, unless there were illogical expectations based on HW's success.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Oliver for Smash when

 

[Goten21]

Like thirty pages back someone mentioned Eevee, as a mid-fight transformer and I love that idea so much...

I want to add onto it:
- I think Eevee should be weaker by default than any of the evolutions
- Didn't think I'd be saying this, but custom movesets would be amazing if only so you could choose what eeveelution you want to transform into, or maybe just first three? Making all of them would be too much work anyway, imo

B could be shadowball
Down B could be double team, where you spawn essentially a clone of yourself. It shouldn't do any damage, but give knock-back if it hits an opponent and it can disappear with a single hit
Up, left and right b could be reserved for an eeveelution. I think it'd be cool if you need to have done a certain amount of damage to the opponent before you can transform. Maybe 50%?
The eeveelutions should have clear strengths, like jolteon could have speed, vaporeon could have range, flareon could have attack?
I'm just sad that the first three are typings that are already in the game. Personally I'd prefer if you could choose between leafeon, the ice one, espeon and umbreon but idk, those aren't as iconic as the first three.

Eevee is the only pokemon addition I'd be content with. The sun and moon starters weren't interesting whatshowever, and neither do I see the X&Y starters making the cut. I don't need a new pokemon, either. Maybe as a dlc down the road, but that's it

 

[Cosmic77]

In regards to Warriors, I feel we can't take a spin-off title as much of a reason to doubt the current success of a franchise. Warriors games were really niche to begin with, adding the Fire Emblem reskin and a few mechanics doesn't change what the game is. Hyrule Warriors was more successful because EVERYBODY knows what Legend of Zelda is, but I don't think it was ever expected that FE Warriors was going to be a massive hit.

Let me put it to you this way.

Warriors was close to bombing in Japan. NA sales is what saved it.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Heroes was a massive success, but Warriors greatly underperformed.

You have to acknowledge the franchise's low points too. FE is popular, but not every title is a guaranteed hit that will rake in cash.

Does every single game in a franchise have to be a hit for it to be considered one of Nintendo's heavy hitters?

Also, can I get a source for Warriors "underperforming?" I know the fanbase has been mixed on it, but i can't recall ever having seen solid sales data or how Nintendo reacted. A quick google search seemed to suggest the opposite, but I know that's hardly reliable.

 

[PhantomShab]

Thank you for your valid counterpoint in this discussion. There's plenty of strong arguments for why Lucina isn't the most important clone, and also solid arguments for why Dark Pit would be more likely to get a rework (or even just return, for that matter) than Lucina. I posted them just a few minutes ago.

I'm not talking about Lucina (who I think should be cut anyway along with Dark Pit), I'm talking about Ganondorf.

I agree that Dark Pit is more likely to be de-cloned than Ganondorf simply because of Sakurai's obvious biases. You don't need to defend that hypothetical but sadly likely scenario. Just accept it as Sakurai playing favorites again and enjoy your newly de-cloned clone lol.

 

[T-Hell]

As has come up many times in this thread, I would imagine that by the end of the DLC cycle for this game, there will be no "cuts" from this game. Considering they only make one Smash game per generation, and the Switch, which has been extremely successful, is only going to be a year and a half old by the time this comes out, the DLC support for this incredibly popular game will be long, and I believe they'll try to make this game a "definitive edition" where all veterans return.

EDIT: If Sakurai ever wants to retire from making Smash games, I wouldn't be shocked to see him make one final game with all his characters. And what better place to do it than what could become Nintendo's most successful console ever?

Not to mention Smash's 20th anniversary next year. Seeing how considerative Sakurai is, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he was planning something huge as some kind of dlc to celebrate that milestone. Maybe I'm being too optimistic with this but it just seems like something he would at least think about.

 

[Chandeelure]

People say it is overreped because they compare the popularity of the franchises and not just the amount of potential characters.

FE having the same amount of characters than Pokemon, 2 times more characters than Kirby or 3 times more characters than DK feels kinda wrong.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Let me put it to you this way.

Warriors was close to bombing in Japan. NA sales is what saved it.

Japan knew what to expect, beyond a small number (including myself, played Dynasty Warriors since 3), NA's only experience with Warriors was Hyrule Warriors. As a long time warriors fan, I had miniscule expectations for FE Warriors. Bought it anyway, basically got what I expected. What I expected was disappointing, though.

ANYWAYS

As far as mainline FE goes, which should be the determining factor, FE has been really popular. And then Heroes has just been on it's very own level of popularity.

 

[N3ON]

Does every single game in a franchise have to be a hit for it to be considered one of Nintendo's heavy hitters?

No, but also, I wouldn't consider FE to be one of Nintendo's heavy hitters.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I guess people think it's over-repped because there's a lot of percieved same-ness with the characters, so it doesn't feel as diverse as something like Mario or Pokemon that also has a ton of characters.

I'd guess the unique ones are safe (Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin), with the others likely as well (at the very least as DLC).

Yeah, sadly FE historically tends to recycle certain elements for it's main characters, though that's changing somewhat recently. Doesn't help that a lot of Smash fans tend to be pretty superficial when judging characters.

Corrin I'm not so sure on returning. They were one of the more contentious aspects in an already contentious release in the franchise. I personally have a feeling that Fates won't have the same staying power as Awakening. I personally feel theyll return as DLC if anything, but I could easily be wrong.

 

[Opossum]

I honestly think FE16, like Prime 4 and probably Gen VIII Pokémon, will come out too late to even feasibly be a Greninja situation.

Shadows of Valentia, however, I think has a shot, not to sound like a broken record. Its development cycle lasted from 2015 to 2017, which would likely fall in line with when they chose the roster.

 

[Edgelord_197]

What? He doesn't think that at all.

Fire Emblem is a huge series. It has like 15 games - that's more than a lot of Nintendo franchises would even dream of.

Plus, since Awakening (which sold over 2 million copies), it's been in such a huge and constant revival phase.

Its still a niche franchise. Sure it grew popular because of marriage system, but its no Mario or Legend of Zelda title.
Its a B tier series at best

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I'm not talking about Lucina (who I think should be cut anyway along with Dark Pit), I'm talking about Ganondorf.

I agree that Dark Pit is more likely to be de-cloned than Ganondorf simply because of Sakurai's obvious biases. You don't need to defend that hypothetical but sadly likely scenario. Just accept it as Sakurai playing favorites again and enjoy your newly de-cloned clone lol.

I dunno why you're trying to be so negative, honestly. I will enjoy my decloned clone, thank you very much. Ganon has had the same moveset for 3 games, to expect any change for him is likely setting yourself up for disappointment. I don't like Ganon's moveset from a Ganon fantasy point of view, but Ganon's Smash persona is defined as a slow, heavy hitter with (for whatever reason) Falcon as a base. It's been that way since 2001. In a Ganon rework vs Pittoo rework scenario, I think "Sakurai Bias" isn't the issue anymore, it's that Sakurai wants to leave characters the way they are for the fans of that character, and that I can respect.

 

[Deleted member]

Prediction: Mario will have an outfit referencing Cappy, but his moveset will be unchanged.

I can live with that at this point. If Super Mario Odyssey gets some representation in Super Smash Bros. Switch wheather it be Pauline appearing or Capoy being a move (I'd also like too see Mario's hammer in there too.) Or a new stage I's be content I'll main Mario regardless change or not so fine by me.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I honestly think FE16, like Prime 4 and probably Gen VIII Pokémon, will come out too late to even feasibly be a Greninja situation.

Shadows of Valentia, however, I think has a shot, not to sound like a broken record. Its development cycle lasted from 2015 to 2017, which would likely fall in line with when they chose the roster.

That didn't stop Roy or Corrin from making it in Smash.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I don't get how people can be so sure certain characters won't get cut when someone as popular as Mewtwo got cut.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

FE having the same amount of characters than Pokemon, 2 times more characters than Kirby or 3 times more characters than DK feels kinda wrong.

It doesn't feel even slightly wrong.

What feels wrong is having characters that don't make sense as apposed to characters that do make sense because someone else's cookie is bigger. Characters are more important than numbers, but I guess that's still not an easy concept to grasp.

Fire Emblem has more characters because there are more characters worth adding. What would feel wrong is to have DK, Diddy, Dixie, Funky, Cranky, and King K. Rool VS Marth & Ike. That's what's wrong.

 

[Lyndis_]

I honestly think FE16, like Prime 4 and probably Gen VIII Pokémon, will come out too late to even feasibly be a Greninja situation.

Shadows of Valentia, however, I think has a shot, not to sound like a broken record. Its development cycle lasted from 2015 to 2017, which would likely fall in line with when they chose the roster.

We'll almost definitely find out at E3 whether or not Pokémon Switch and/or Prime 4 whether it's possible could be a Greninja/Corrin/Roy situation or not.

If they don't give us a release date, or if either of them are not even shown, then we know it will be too late.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

That didn't stop Roy or Corrin from making it in Smash.

Corrin was DLC and Roy was added mere months before his appearance in Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade.
Where as Fire Emblem 16 is set to appear two years after this game likely started development.

 

[PhantomShab]

I dunno why you're trying to be so negative, honestly. I will enjoy my decloned clone, thank you very much. Ganon has had the same moveset for 3 games, to expect any change for him is likely setting yourself up for disappointment. I don't like Ganon's moveset from a Ganon fantasy point of view, but Ganon's Smash persona is defined as a slow, heavy hitter with (for whatever reason) Falcon as a base. It's been that way since 2001. In a Ganon rework vs Pittoo rework scenario, I think "Sakurai Bias" isn't the issue anymore, it's that Sakurai wants to leave characters the way they are for the fans of that character, and that I can respect.

I'm being realistic. I don't expect any change for Ganondorf anymore. I'm done having any hopes or expectations when it comes to Sakurai. This is the first time I'm not even really excited for a new Smash game and that honestly sucks, but it's just how I feel. I also really don't care about your "points" for why Ganondorf should stay a clone (he shouldn't btw). Ganondorf is easily as big of a villain as Bowser, he deserves a unique moveset more than Dark Pit and that is not up for debate.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I don't get how people can be so sure certain characters won't get cut when someone as popular as Mewtwo got cut.

Mewtwo has always been a popular Pokémon, but he wasn't a very popular character in Melee because he felt super janky to play as. Point remains the same though, people who don't expect cuts are in for a rude awakening, it always happens.

 

[Deleted member]

Heroes was a massive success, but Warriors greatly underperformed.

You have to acknowledge the franchise's low points too. FE is popular, but not every title is a guaranteed hit that will rake in cash.

So what if FEW underperformed? The good outweights the bad by a large margin. FE has only grown since Smash 4 and FEH is a big ass money making machine and the one Nintendo mobile game that actually worked.

 

[Opossum]

That didn't stop Roy or Corrin from making it in Smash.

Fates was already out in Japan when Corrin was revealed as DLC, and Roy got in as a last minute clone. Not exactly the best examples, imo.

Considering we know Sakurai decided the roster in 2012 for Smash 4, and Greninja was kind of a last minute edition despite only existing a year later, it's a much tighter squeeze. Especially considering Robin was almost not on the roster. Sakurai said if Awakening released even a month or so later, it would've missed the boat.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I don't get how people can be so sure certain characters won't get cut when someone as popular as Mewtwo got cut.

I may be coming off as the type to be sure nobody is getting cut, but I can assure you that isn't the case. I expect a few cuts, but I'm really hoping for none. Based on some of the inferred information in regards to dev time and comparing that with the 3DS+Wii U dev time, the complications involved with 3DS+Wii U, and what the final product wound up being has led me to be highly optimistic with what we could get, though. Not to mention the quality of the models in Wii U were already HD, so it should be easier transfer those models to Switch should they decide to take that route. It could cut down a lot of dev time even if they decide to upgrade the already existing models, too. There was a decently substantial graphical jump between each prior Smash game, so those things could've been harder back then. Of course, the modelling things are all being inferred by myself and I'm not trying to suggest what I say is fact.

 

[N3ON]

I honestly think FE16, like Prime 4 and probably Gen VIII Pokémon, will come out too late to even feasibly be a Greninja situation.

Shadows of Valentia, however, I think has a shot, not to sound like a broken record. Its development cycle lasted from 2015 to 2017, which would likely fall in line with when they chose the roster.

If all FE had to push was a remake, I think we'd just retain most of, if not all, the current characters. Especially if this game is based around Smash 4.

Maybe if the series didn't already have the volume it does.

DLC is another story though.

I don't get how people can be so sure certain characters won't get cut when someone as popular as Mewtwo got cut.

He wasn't very popular when he got cut. In Smash at least.

But yes. It's still an original character getting the axe. Worth remembering.

Fire Emblem has more characters because there are more characters worth adding. What would feel wrong is to have DK, Diddy, Dixie, Funky, Cranky, and King K. Rool VS Marth & Ike. That's what's wrong.

No people would defend that as well. And honestly I think that makes as much sense as the current imbalance.

 

[?????????????]

Fire Emblem is more than big enough of a series to warrant the amount of characters it currently has.

I wouldn't mind a couple more!

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I'm being realistic. I don't expect any change for Ganondorf anymore. I'm done having any hopes or expectations when it comes to Sakurai. This is the first time I'm not even really excited for a new Smash game and that honestly sucks, but it's just how I feel. I also really don't care about your "points" for why Ganondorf should stay a clone (he shouldn't btw). Ganondorf is easily as big of a villain as Bowser, he deserves a unique moveset more than Dark Pit and that is not up for debate.

If you don't care about what I have to say why did you reply to any of my posts in the first place?

 

[N3ON]

Fire Emblem is more than big enough of a series to warrant the amount of characters it currently has.

I wouldn't mind a couple more!

Hush, the priority are more Pits and Links.

 

[?????????????]

Donkey Kong is a big enough series to warrant new characters in Smash.

I'd like to see a few more!

 

[IronTed]

I mean no disrespect, but FE is not big in the way of Mario or Animal Crossing. The mainline games don't exactly sell several million a pop. Mid sized is more accurate.

Heroes is the only "big" game in the franchise, and it's on Mobile, making the comparison less direct.