Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Let's take a think on what characters were popular last time around and didn't get their chance

From Brawl Times

King K. Rool (The dream won't die, got mii costume)
Ridley (The dream somehow still clings to life against all known medical knowledge)
Krystal (Had the closest fan to hater ratio)
Geno (got a mii costume, more than any of us were expecting)

From 4

Chrom & Chorus Kids (thanks to that leak, At least Chrom got a costume)
Zoroark (alas, the curse of release timing)

Any more?

I'd say Bandana Dee for 4, and probably Dixie since Brawl???

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I can't say the same for Daisy. In pretty much all of the games she's been in, she either doesn't matter at all, she brings nothing to them, or she's simply there.

I would bring up that she's one of the most used characters in Mario Kart Wii online (yes, that's still a thing thanks to the magic of Wimmfi).

 

[TheMagic1]

I would bring up that she's one of the most used characters in Mario Kart Wii online (yes, that's still a thing thanks to the magic of Wimmfi).

But wasn't that only because she had one of the best stats in the game and nothing else? I barely see any Daisy players online on Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, Elma would not be a bad choice.
I know Elma, Rex, Pyra and Mythra would be "too much anime sword fighters", but still. I love my anime sword fighter characters.
Also if Sakurai did not include Rex, Pyra and Mythra by the time he made it, than Elma would be the perfect choice.

I wouldn't get too excited over this. For all we know, this game can be like brawl

I know somebody already said this, but I loved Brawl overall.

Sure, it was slow, floaty and balancing problems were in there ( which made it my least favorite in the series ), you could not do fancy stuff like wave-dashing or L-canceling and air dodging was too powerful, but I still loved it.

Subspace was amazing. The roster had Solid Snake and introduced Sonic and many other cool characters, and many more.

Plus that game was the game that got me into Smash Bros.

 

[DraginHikari]

Celica as Pichu? Oh man...that won’t go over well.

Zero chance Mimikyu is a Pikachu clone. Their builds and move sets are entirely different.

The problem with Pichu was his self-damage attacks had very little additional payoff that I can recall. It was self-damage that was not worth it. It's very possible to make useful self damage attacks but the payoff has to be worth the risk.

Star Fox Zero is an example of when gimmicks for gimmick's sake goes horribly wrong.

What it boils down to is a game that is both a turret section and flying section at the same time.

Innovation for the sake of innovation is a double edge sword. Miyamoto has shown more of this as time as gone along frankly. The desire to doing something new for the sake of it has played into more of his less successful projects. His desire to avoid doing the same thing can result in good things but it can also lead to concepts left as undefined and awkwardly implemented.

I mean it's not just Miyamoto either, Nintendo has a whole has a tendency to try different things. Sometimes this works out well for them such as the NES original launch, the Wii success, or even the Switch to some regards. It also has lead to things such as the Virtual Boy and the Wii U cycle. Innovation for Innovation sake can lead to just as many problems as allowing something to get too stale.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

The problem with Pichu was his self-damage attacks had very little additional payoff that I can recall. It was self-damage that was not worth it. It's very possible to make useful self damage attacks but the payoff has to be worth the risk.

Also the self-damage attacks would just be limited to her magic specials instead of all of her attacks like Pichu, so she would still have good kill moves with her sword that wouldn't harm her.

But a lot of this is under the hypotetical situation where she is a Robin clone. If she was a completely unique fighter I don't know if she would have the mechanic.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Honestly, regardless of what they do with Celica, as long she is in the game, it is good enough for me. But her self-damage if they decide to incorporate that mechanic definitely needs a trade-off with hard-hitting moves for that risk/reward factor. It will probably be best if she didn't have it though.

 

[Deleted member]

Also the self-damage attacks would just be limited to her magic specials instead of all of her attacks like Pichu, so she would still have good kill moves with her sword that wouldn't harm her.

Not true at all.

That is quite a lot of moves that hurt Pichu. There are attacks that hurt Pichu as well.

Honestly, regardless of what they do with Celica, as long she is in the game, it is good enough for me. But her self-damage if they decide to incorporate that mechanic definitely needs a trade-off with hard-hitting moves for that risk/reward factor. It will probably be best if she didn't have it though.

You are right. I think Celica could do without the self-damage to be honest.
Celica is fine without the self-damage, just focus on what other stuff she does.

 

[TheMagic1]

Honestly, I only want Pichu back because he's the only character who's purposefully bad. You could just bring so much shame upon people which you couldn't do with anyone else. But this time, they need to make his playstyle fun and give him attacks that are bad, but are a joy to use.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I wouldn't be opposed to Pichu returning. Every game does need their Dan Hibiki after all!

 

[Freduardo]

Honestly, I only want Pichu back because he's the only character who's purposefully bad. You could just bring so much shame upon people which you couldn't do with anyone else. But this time, they need to make his playstyle fun and give him attacks that are bad, but are a joy to use.

Missile headbutt?

Anywho, on the subject of self damaging characters, I always felt Commander Video should (as an endless runner character) always be moving, and if forced to stop by the player, start soaking damage.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Not true at all.

That is quite a lot of moves that hurt Pichu. There are attacks that hurt Pichu as well.

You are right. I think Celica could do without the self-damage to be honest.
Celica is fine without the self-damage, just focus on what other stuff she does.

Huh, I knew it wasn't every attack but I assumed it was more. Either way I think just limiting it to her specials would be better than what Pichu had.

Also Celica doesn't have anything else to focus on but sword fighting, like every other FE character we have. All of her magic is self harm. (Anyone more familiar with the game correct me, been trying to look into it as much as possible). I'd agree that she doesn't need self-damaging attacks, but I'd also agree that Robin didn't need durable weapons so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Well, the weapon durability I can understand because it is a general mechanic in most FE games, so I guess Sakurai wanted to reference that, but the self-harm is pretty much exclusive to Celica's game and IMO it isn't really neccessary to reference.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Huh, I knew it wasn't every attack but I assumed it was more. Either way I think just limiting it to her specials would be better than what Pichu had.

Also Celica doesn't have anything else to focus on but sword fighting, like every other FE character we have. All of her magic is self harm. (Anyone more familiar with the game correct me, been trying to look into it as much as possible). I'd agree that she doesn't need self-damaging attacks, but I'd also agree that Robin didn't need durable weapons so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why does everyone talk about sword characters? We have lots, but do you know what we don't have?

A spear character.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20130501231102&path-prefix=en

I guess Celica might be cool, though...

 

[Opossum]

Well, the weapon durability I can understand because it is a general mechanic in most FE games, so I guess Sakurai wanted to reference that, but the self-harm is pretty much exclusive to Celica's game and IMO it isn't really neccessary to reference.

At the same time, considering Gaiden/SoV's Magic system is unlike anything else in the series, Celica should absolutely incorporate it into her moves. Her moves would be incredibly powerful, but also do recoil damage. She can do smaller attacks that aren't as powerful for the benefit of not doing as much recoil. A high risk, high reward character, unlike Pichu who just amounted to a worse Pikachu.

It could be really fun.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Why does everyone talk about sword characters? We have lots, but do you know what we don't have?

A spear character.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20130501231102&path-prefix=en

I guess Celica might be cool, though...

Oh trust me, excited Bandana Dee is going to be our first spear character.

It's been said a thousand times but everyone talks about sword characters because FE has only gotten main character representation and most main characters are sword users so...

The other day I was thinking of a character who represented the weapon triangle, could switch between swords,axes and lances and got advantage. But then I realized with our current roster lances would be OP, axes would be trash and sword would be meh, so bad character idea XD

 

[MrReyes96]

I think Lyn being incredibly popular, an assist for two smash games, and face of the first fire emblem to come to the west makes her a better choice for a newcomer.
Ideally for fire emblem the roster would be
Marth, Roy, Ike, Robin, Lucina, Corrin, Lyn, Celica/New FE lord
With Lucina being decloned or made an alt
Just my opinion though

 

[Cosmic77]

Why does everyone talk about sword characters? We have lots, but do you know what we don't have?

A spear character.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20130501231102&path-prefix=en

I guess Celica might be cool, though...

Oh trust me, excited Bandana Dee is going to be our first spear character.

It's been said a thousand times but everyone talks about sword characters because FE has only gotten main character representation and most main characters are sword users so...

The other day I was thinking of a character who represented the weapon triangle, could switch between swords,axes and lances and got advantage. But then I realized with our current roster lances would be OP, axes would be trash and sword would be meh, so bad character idea XD

Since you two brought it up, y'know what I've never understood? People who specifically want a FE character who fights with a spear.

I can understand why someone may want a FE character who fights with something besides a sword, but does the spear fighter we get in Smash have to be a FE character? If the weapon is the main reason you're supporting the character, then couldn't anyone who fights with a spear meet the criteria that you're looking for. Not only that, but wouldn't it make far more sense for someone like Bandana Dee or Mipha to get in Smash first? Not only are these two known for having a spear, but their popularity and iconicness far exceeds what most of what the FE spear users have.

Just seems like FE is mirroring what Pokemon is doing with types. "We need to complete the water, grass, and fire triangle!" "We need to complete the weapons triangle!"

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Since you two brought it up, y'know what I've never understood? People who specifically want a FE character who fights with a spear.

I can understand why someone may want a FE character who fights with something besides a sword, but does the spear fighter we get in Smash have to be a FE character? If the weapon is the main reason you're supporting the character, then couldn't anyone who fights with a spear meet the criteria that you're looking for. Not only that, but wouldn't it make far more sense for someone like Bandana Dee or Mipha to get in Smash first? Not only are these two known for having a spear, but their popularity and iconicness far exceeds what most of what the FE spear users have.

I meant Bandana Dee. I don't even know any FE characters that aren't in Smash because I've never really played the games.

Who needs anime characters when you can have cute puffballs amiright?

 

[MrReyes96]

I meant Bandana Dee. I don't even know any FE characters that aren't in Smash because I've never really played the games.

Who needs anime characters when you can have cute puffballs amiright?

Pretty ironic considering fire emblem hasn’t had an anime but the cute puffballs have

Spoiler

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Pretty ironic considering fire emblem hasn’t had an anime but the cute puffballs have ]

Actually... And for a spear user, I remember that before Corrin got revealed for DLC I wanted Azura to be the Fates rep. Unforunately, her chances are low which is why I am pulling for my girl Celica. I would love Bandana Dee though to represent the spear, cute puffballs ftw.

 

[Deleted member]

If we got a Fire Emblem character with a weapon type that isn't in Smash I'd flip if it was Jakob with his Dagger + Stave combination, especially since he'd be more focused on support. For his normals, he'd fling daggers around like nobody's business while going on about living to serve Corrin... maybe even have him toss his tray around! Up close he'd use it like a traditional knife instead of annoying fighters at mid range. His neutral special could be his only dagger throw that had a debuff effect. He could also have a special dedicated to healing himself, but it'd only work if he was also healing a teammate. Throw in a few status staves like Freeze and Warp/Rescue to round out the rest of the specials, and you're done! He has an actual 0% chance of making it into the roster though.

Spoiler: Best Butler

 

[Awesomeperson159]

Pretty ironic considering fire emblem hasn’t had an anime but the cute puffballs have

Spoiler

Kirby kirby kirby may be the star of the show, but Bandana Dee is a name you should know.

He's gonna come right back at ya, with an appearance in Smash 5

 

[TheTrueHer0]

Bandana dee representing the spear would be awesome. He could play kinda like he plays in SSF2 where he can fight melee, but also zone out characters with projectiles

 

[SamuXCI]

Kirby kirby kirby may be the star of the show, but Bandana Dee is a name you should know.

He's gonna come right back at ya, with an appearance in Smash 5

How can I help you King Dedede? I need an Assist Trophy to deconfirm that dang Bandana Dee! (Just kidding)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Zelda needs to be changed from her specials to her normals. Her moveset isn’t good really. It doesn’t function well, and neither does her speed or agility in-game.

Link might get a few changes, but Zelda needs an overhaul.

Zelda's moveset would've had potential if it was handled properly. But the developers clearly don't know how to do that if she has been ranked in the bottom 5 competitively in every Smash Bros. installment so far.

Zelda could've operated like a glass cannon in that despite being slow on the ground, and light, her magic attacks would enable her to rival the strength of certain heavyweights, such as Donkey Kong and Bowser. But unlike the heavyweights, Zelda would be able to strike more quickly, and would be less vulnerable to ending lag.

 

[MrReyes96]

Actually... And for a spear user, I remember that before Corrin got revealed for DLC I wanted Azura to be the Fates rep. Unforunately, her chances are low which is why I am pulling for my girl Celica. I would love Bandana Dee though to represent the spear, cute puffballs ftw.

I mean I guess the OVA counts but you know what I mean

 

[Freduardo]

Oh hey! A Daisy supporter that didn't claim some nonsense. I swear this never happens lol.

In the past, I thought that Waluigi was just as irrelevant as Daisy and also doesn't deserve a spot, but after looking deeper into it, it seems like his appearances do make sense. We all know that Waluigi was added to be a partner for Wario and a rival for Luigi right? However, that's what Nintendo wanted. Camelot, the people who made him, wanted an original character that they could mess around with and develop themselves. Waluigi in MT64 was made out to be this new villain character and was given a lot of attention in these games because of it. Sometimes he gets these hilarious cutscenes, other times he's the main villain of all things. And many people started to love Waluigi at this point and many people started to support him, but because Nintendo only sees him as a partner character and nothing else, they haven't done anything with him. I would say that he needs to appear in the brand new Wario Land title where he has a huge role for him to be in smash. I don't think giving him the spot is really doing him justice, but at least Waluigi joining smash is a bit reasonable and I could see why people would want him.

I can't say the same for Daisy. In pretty much all of the games she's been in, she either doesn't matter at all, she brings nothing to them, or she's simply there. Nintendo still keeps her around, but for what reason? Not because they care, but because they think she's normal to add into games now. If they really cared about her, then they would've mae her a huge part of the game's she's in, but they haven't done any of that stuff. Even in her first appearance, the devs didn't even care about her at all and she was just Peach, and they dropped her afterwards while still keeping Tatanga in the sequel because they felt that the princess formula in unoriginal. Imo she's just dragged on at this point and I feel like they should focus on someone else.

But those Daisy fans are certainly obsessive though. In case you were wondering, I actually like the video, I was referring to the comment section, and good god are these people terrible. All of them are constantly using groundless arguments, and whenever people show that they are, they get called a hater and they call them delusional. One of these people said that all of the people who think Daisy shouldn't be in smash are just as bad as the people who support slavery. Maybe I shouldn't have been too harsh but with people like these, it's close to impossible.

Look, I’m not going to defend Memory man or a comment section, but the claim there’s a difference because Waluigi was designed to be the luigi counterpart to Wario for a sport game holds no water...

Cause Daisy did that first by over a decade. And if you want to tell me that golf game doesn’t matter.... I’ve seen Mario wear that outfit pretty recently. She gets cutscenes too (I give you mario strikers series). And just as some people want Waluigi, some people want Daisy. Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Your two posts are a lot of things you’re complaining about in that comment section.

Waluigi’s only advantage is Mario DDR Remix.

 

[MrReyes96]

Look, I’m not going to defend Memory man or a comment section, but the claim there’s a difference because Waluigi was designed to be the luigi counterpart to Wario for a sport game holds no water...

Cause Daisy did that first by over a decade. And if you want to tell me that golf game doesn’t matter.... I’ve seen Mario wear that outfit pretty recently.

Waluigi’s only advantage is Mario DDR Remix.

The difference being Waluigi was made solely for sports games, and Daisy was not.

Waluigi also has the potential to be more unique since unlike Daisy he wouldn’t work as a simple model swap. But then again that could benefit Daisy and have her use some of peach’s animations.
In a perfect world we’d have Daisy, Waluigi, Toad and all be satisfied

Edit: also Luigi needs that outfit in smash 5

 

[Deleted member]

I get that Waluigi and Daisy have their supporters and that Mario is basically synonymous with Nintendo, but I just can't see either of them making it into Smash. At that point Smash would feel more like a Mario spinoff rather than a celebration of all Nintendo titles. Until they have decently prominent roles in the main series I think they'll be regulated to (Assist) Trophies at best. That's why I think Sakurai will go for someone else like Captain Toad who actually has a role in Mario games outside of being one of the many extras in sports games.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I remember in the old pre-Brawl days, it was Waluigi vs Daisy vs Toad vs Geno fans and the funny thing in the end is that none of them got in.

 

[Freduardo]

The difference being Waluigi was made solely for sports games, and Daisy was not.

Waluigi also has the potential to be more unique since unlike Daisy he wouldn’t work as a simple model swap. But then again that could benefit Daisy and have her use some of peach’s animations.
In a perfect world we’d have Daisy, Waluigi, Toad and all be satisfied

Edit: also Luigi needs that outfit in smash 5

He might have been, but much like Daisy in Mario Run (and the sports series), I’d like to see Waluigi do more than be an extra roster slot in the sports games and wario’s henchman.

Specifically, I’d like to see a Wario Land game with playable Waluigi.

Totally agreed on Luigi should get that costume.

Don’t know if I’d prefer that or Mr. L. That was an awesome Luigi outfit.

 

[MrReyes96]

I get that Waluigi and Daisy have their supporters and that Mario is basically synonymous with Nintendo, but I just can't see either of them making it into Smash. At that point Smash would feel more like a Mario spinoff rather than a celebration of all Nintendo titles. Until they have decently prominent roles in the main series I think they'll be regulated to (Assist) Trophies at best. That's why I think Sakurai will go for someone else like Captain Toad who actually has a role in Mario games outside of spinoffs.

I see more passion and support for those two than Toad, not that it means anything. People expect him already.
But for me that’s why I want Waluigi, there are so many mario spin off related moves that can be incorporated into a moveset.
And even if it’s not mario sports related Waluigi can just be a tricky, cheating, goofy character.
There’s a reason why people want him so much

 

[Cosmic77]

I get that Waluigi and Daisy have their supporters and that Mario is basically synonymous with Nintendo, but I just can't see either of them making it into Smash. At that point Smash would feel more like a Mario spinoff rather than a celebration of all Nintendo titles. Until they have decently prominent roles in the main series I think they'll be regulated to (Assist) Trophies at best. That's why I think Sakurai will go for someone else like Captain Toad who actually has a role in Mario games outside of spinoffs.

I agree. After seeing Sakurai skip right over Daisy and Waluigi in favor of Rosalina and Bowser Jr., I feel like something needs to change in order for them to get in Smash. Clearly being entirely delegated to the wonderful world of Mario spin-offs for over two decades hasn't worked very well in getting either of them in Smash, so I doubt it'll suddenly be different with this Smash game.

I much as people may disagree with me, I feel like Captain Toad or even Pauline would capture Sakurai's attention for potential Smash Switch newcomers before Daisy and Waluigi would.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Waluigi’s only advantage is Mario DDR Remix.

What about popular people like Protonjon boosting his popularity?

I'm surprised nobody's brought him up when discussing Waluigi's popularity.

 

[MrReyes96]

He might have been, but much like Daisy in Mario Run (and the sports series), I’d like to see Waluigi do more than be an extra roster slot in the sports games and wario’s henchman.

Specifically, I’d like to see a Wario Land game with playable Waluigi.

Totally agreed on Luigi should get that costume.

Don’t know if I’d prefer that or Mr. L. That was an awesome Luigi outfit.

Wario and Waluigi RPG Partners in crime needs to have happened yesterday
As well as Wario Land with Waluigi player 2
And Waluigi having his micro games in wario ware

That Mario Power Tennis intro with Wario and Waluigi being mischievous is some of the most personality and humor shown in the mario series, and it’s a crime Nintendo hasn’t expanded on that duo.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That Mario Power Tennis intro with Wario and Waluigi being mischievous is some of the most personality and humor shown in the mario series, and it’s a crime Nintendo hasn’t expanded on that duo.

That reminds me, is Camelot still doing the writing for the most recent Mario sports games?

 

[MrReyes96]

That reminds me, is Camelot still doing the writing for the most recent Mario sports games?

I believe so
It’s pretty obvious they love him over there, he’s their baby after all

 

[TheMagic1]

Look, I’m not going to defend Memory man or a comment section, but the claim there’s a difference because Waluigi was designed to be the luigi counterpart to Wario for a sport game holds no water...

Cause Daisy did that first by over a decade. And if you want to tell me that golf game doesn’t matter.... I’ve seen Mario wear that outfit pretty recently. She gets cutscenes too (I give you mario strikers series). And just as some people want Waluigi, some people want Daisy. Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Your two posts are a lot of things you’re complaining about in that comment section.

Waluigi’s only advantage is Mario DDR Remix.

Maybe I should explain this more clearly. What I was saying is that Waluigi ended up being more notable in his spin-off appearances, and that his creation wasn't just simply "Wario's partner, Luigi's rival". He was created with the intention of being an actual character. Yes, Daisy is older, and she has cutscenes herself, but here's the thing. Being older doesn't matter if you matter way less. She got some cutscenses, but they were just very small ones that barely have anything to do with the main plot, and pretty much every other character had the same thing as her. Compared to Waluigi's, which were wacky, but at least had to do with the tournament going on and how he and Wario were going to cheat in it. He's also the villain at times too, not only in DDR Remix but also MP3 and he was shown off as this huge character in that game. Daisy doesn't have any of this, and all of the games she's appeared in could've been fine without her and the games would barely even change.

I never said that they don't exist, what are you talking about? And I have no idea as to how what I was talking about were complaints. They were just me giving thoughts on Daisy being in smash. The other post just talks about how rude and biased the Daisy fans were acting in the comment section.


So to clarify: Daisy may be older than Waluigi, but she is less notable and less impactful. Many people talk about how awesome the Wario Bros cutscenes were and how they think Waluigi is a hilarious character and that Nintendo should do more with her, but do people talk about how awesome Daisy was in Super Mario Land, or her spin-off appearances, or Super Mario Run? No, because she doesn't do anything notable in those games. She's just there.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Brawl in the Family artist. That guy is EASILY one of the big sources of Waluigi's meme status.