Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh for ****s sake can we all stop talkinf about which Japanese monster game has the bigger **** because NOBODY ****ING CARES

 

[staindgrey]

So guys. I've been out of the game for a week and I'll be getting back onto Quickplay tomorrow for my day off. Have we figured out what gets you into Elite Smash?

Because I've got seven characters over a million, my total roster GSP is like 1.5mil and my highest, Zelda, is 1.8mil.

I don't know what this game wants from me.

 

[Deleted member]

How the heck is it bad game design to get players to think to use stronger options to beat harder things in the game? The very existence of levelling up in an RPG completely refutes your argument because if that were the case, you wouldn't level up your Pokemon at all since it gives them better stats to beat the game easier by being stronger. While it's true you can solo a Pokemon game with a level 100 Caterpie, you're certainly never going to do that with level 2 Caterpie. Guess Pokemon is badly designed since if level 2 is your favorite level, you can't beat the game with a Pokemon at that level. Besides, even if that was bad game design, plenty of games that lock all options behind postgame are automatically bad, then. For instance, if your favorite Pokemon is a Legendary that you can't get until after beating the story, then I guess Pokemon is a badly designed game since it literally makes it so you're not allowed to beat it with that favorite Pokemon you aren't allowed to have yet.

Any RPG that isn't Pokemon honestly has way more freedom to offer since the monsters tend to have way more skillslots, numerous fusion paths, and bigger and more open worlds while Pokemon generally puts you on a straight lined path.

So... do you remember what you said about us completely missing your point? Ironic, huh?

 

[Ura]

"As we make the DLC fighters, the team involved will continue to shrink."

I think this comment sorta hints that after the five characters, Sakurai is going to split town and it'll be the end of Smash Ultimate DLC.

So Wave 2 is kinda in question I think.

 

[osby]

Oh for ****s sake can we all stop talkinf about which Japanese monster game has the bigger **** because NOBODY ****ING CARES

Shin Megami Tensei, because one of the monsters is literally a giant ****.

 

[Pakky]

View attachment 184521
So... do you remember what you said about us completely missing your point? Ironic, huh?

Did you know that roast beef tastes great with mustard?

 

[Opossum]

How the heck is it bad game design to get players to think to use stronger options to beat harder things in the game? The very existence of levelling up in an RPG completely refutes your argument because if that were the case, you wouldn't level up your Pokemon at all since it gives them the option of having better stats to beat the game easier by being stronger. While it's true you can solo a Pokemon game with a level 100 Caterpie, you're certainly never going to do that with level 2 Caterpie. Guess Pokemon is badly designed since if level 2 is your favorite level, you can't beat the game with a Pokemon at that level. Besides, even if that was bad game design, plenty of games that lock all options behind postgame are automatically bad, then. For instance, if your favorite Pokemon is a Legendary that you can't get until after beating the story, then I guess Pokemon is a badly designed game since it literally makes it so you're not allowed to beat it with that favorite Pokemon you aren't allowed to have yet.

Any RPG that isn't Pokemon honestly has way more freedom to offer since the monsters tend to have way more skillslots, numerous fusion paths, and bigger and more open worlds while Pokemon generally puts you on a straight lined path.

There's a world of difference between the two. People can have a favorite Pokémon. People don't have favorite levels of Pokémon. Levels don't have faces or designs; they're a number on a screen.

 

[osby]

I think this comment sorta hints that after the five characters, Sakurai is going to split town and it'll be the end of Smash Ultimate DLC.

So Wave 2 is kinda in question I think.

As far as I'm concerned, it might as well confirm we'll only get six characters.

 

[staindgrey]

"As we make the DLC fighters, the team involved will continue to shrink. Until now I’ve been overseeing hundreds of peoples’ work, so my work as a director is about to get relatively light. Of course, we have to plan the next DLC character, and the next… and so on and so forth. I planned in advance and set aside some funds, though, so we’ve got a bit of a surplus compared to earlier on."
https://nintendoeverything.com/saku...ate-jokers-reveal-getting-some-rest-and-more/

So, were the DLC fighters chosen in advance or not?

Chosen and planned are two different things, I believe.

For a loose comparison, when we're scripting episodes for our Youtube series, we decide what's going to happen well in advance. I already know the running gags and general character arcs for like 5-10 episodes from now. But the actual work and planning for the episode in question only happens when it's that episode's turn. I'm not storyboarding or scripting for episode ten yet; I'm just now working on episode seven. But I do have an outline with written jokes and the general plot of episode ten just waiting to be used.

 

[Deleted member]

Did you know that roast beef tastes great with mustard?

Roast beef tastes great either way.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

View attachment 184521
So... do you remember what you said about us completely missing your point? Ironic, huh?

Then explain it if you know so much, instead of just posting a dumb image and saying "you missed the point" like any moron can do.
Because apparently you missed the point that levelling up in an RPG to make things stronger and options being locked behind poastgame that you can't access in the story refutes your notion of "bad game design" of only rewarding it so ANYTHING can beat a game when both those things prevent that from being the case.

There's a world of difference between the two. People can have a favorite Pokémon. People don't have favorite levels of Pokémon. Levels don't have faces or designs; they're a number on a screen.

Doesn't do jack to change the fact levelling up makes the Pokemon stronger and capable of actually dealing with stuff and not being able to beat the game at a level of your choosing completely denounces the freedom that this person claims makes good game design.

 

[Deleted member]

Got my Piranha Plant code. Nintendo, for the love of god, don't ever tag it as a promotion. I got notified on your actual promotions you sent to my main inbox but not the thing I actually wanted to be notified about.

Chosen and planned are two different things, I believe.

For a loose comparison, when we're scripting episodes for our Youtube series, we decide what's going to happen well in advance. I already know the running gags and general character arcs for like 5-10 episodes from now. But the actual work and planning for the episode in question only happens when it's that episode's turn. I'm not storyboarding or scripting for episode ten yet; I'm just now working on episode seven. But I do have an outline with written jokes and the general plot of episode ten just waiting to be used.

What Youtube series do you work on?

 

[osby]

Then explain it if you know so much, instead of just posting a dumb image and saying "you missed the point" like any moron can do.
Because apparently you missed the point that levelling up in an RPG to make things stronger and options being locked behind poastgame that you can't access in the story refutes your notion of "bad game design" of only rewards it so ANYTHING can beat a game when both those things prevent that from being the case.


Doesn't do jack to change the fact levelling up makes the Pokemon stronger and capable of actually dealing with stuff and not being able to beat the game at a level of your choosing completely denounces the freedom that this person claims makes good game design.

More I see you posting, less I believe your sig is ironic.

 

[Pakky]

As far as I'm concerned, it might as well confirm we'll only get six characters.

Yeah which was always assumed, sad but true, then again.. 75 and or 80 guys is a LOT.

 

[Gentlepanda]

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/12/2...and-atlus-games-in-a-special-video-interview/

"For Persona 5’s acid jazz battle theme, Sakurai says it isn’t fitting for a battle theme, and if it were Smash Bros. it definitely wouldn’t be a battle theme, yet to have the sense to still push that is something Sakurai finds quite remarkable."

uh oh

 

[Ura]

As far as I'm concerned, it might as well confirm we'll only get six characters.

I wouldn't say for sure but it's looking more and more like it. With a smaller dev team as time goes on one would think it would be the end of support for the game unless Nintendo persuades Sakurai to do Wave 2 after how well Ultimate sold, records and all.

Right now I say it's like 70-30 Wave 1 is the end of Ultimate DLC.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/12/2...and-atlus-games-in-a-special-video-interview/

"For Persona 5’s acid jazz battle theme, Sakurai says it isn’t fitting for a battle theme, and if it were Smash Bros. it definitely wouldn’t be a battle theme, yet to have the sense to still push that is something Sakurai finds quite remarkable."

uh oh

I ****ING KNEW IT

 

[Deleted member]

Then explain it if you know so much, instead of just posting a dumb image and saying "you missed the point" like any moron can do.

God do you even have some self-awareness?

Doesn't do jack to change the fact levelling up makes the Pokemon stronger and capable of actually dealing with stuff and not being able to beat the game at a level of your choosing completely denounces the freedom that this person claims makes good game design.

Just reread my post. I'm not going to feed this argument any longer.

 

[Pakky]

I ****ING KNEW IT

What is this bad and if so how bad? I am ignorant...

 

[staindgrey]

There's a world of difference between the two. People can have a favorite Pokémon. People don't have favorite levels of Pokémon. Levels don't have faces or designs; they're a number on a screen.

I dunno man. When I get my Sneasel to level 57 I feel SO statisfied. I stop training him so the magic isn't ruined.

 

[R208]

Came into the thread during conversations about Roast Beef, fantasy monster **** sizes, game design, DLC, and a sprinkle of Smash Bros discussion.

This thread is a really wild ride.

 

[osby]

What is this bad and if so how bad? I am ignorant...

Vocal tracks in Persona are pretty famous and a lot of fans will be upset if we only get instrumental remixes.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've always seen exp in pokenon as primarily a way of managing difficulty. Find the game too difficult or stuck at a wall? Go grind. Find the game too easy? Run away from wild encounters, avoid trainer battles and save yourself the hassel and tedium. Pokemon is actually really fun with an underleveled team, and I'm sure most games are intentionally balanced in a way that actually let you use one. Older games like Kanto actually design their gym puzzles so that your reward for doing them well is that you get to avoid trainer encounters.

...Except for Let's Go's Sabrina gym which requires you to be overleveled by just one level. That's just bad and really misses the point of Kanto's world design.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

God do you even have some self-awareness?

Just reread my post. I'm not going to feed this argument any longer.

Do you have a degree in game design to claim what's good and bad?

I did. The fact postgame options and level recommendations exist to limit your freedom with what you can beat the story with refute what you've said, so reread that. If you don't want to "feed it", nobody's forcing you to keep replying like you do.

I've always seen exp in pokenon as primarily a way of managing difficulty. Find the game too difficult or stuck at a wall? Go grind. Find the game too easy? Run away from wild encounters, avoid trainer battles and save yourself the hassel and tedium. Pokemon is actually really fun with an underleveled team, and I'm sure most games are intentionally balanced in a way that actually let you use one. Older games like Kanto actually design their gym puzzles so that your reward for doing them well is that you get to avoid trainer encounters.

...Except for Let's Go's Sabrina gym which requires you to be overleveled by just one level. That's just bad and really misses the point of Kanto's world design.

Difference is that monster collectors outside of Pokemon have obstacles where no amount levelling up is going to help, so you're forced to think more about making and thinking up an actual strategy or a different one since level advantage won't help you.

 

[staindgrey]

Got my Piranha Plant code. Nintendo, for the love of god, don't ever tag it as a promotion. I got notified on your actual promotions you sent to my main inbox but not the thing I actually wanted to be notified about.

What Youtube series do you work on?

Just a stupid abridged comedy. It's Gundam Wing.

Shameless self-promotion link.

 

[Deleted member]

My game is better than your game, and you're a dumby dumby dumb dumb if you disagree with me.

To further my point, allow me to write a 100 page report on why [INSERT GAME MECHANIC HERE] is objectively better than your game because [NITPICKS AND EXAGGERATION].

Remember guys, I'M the one with the best taste and opinions.

Which is why Digimon is better than Yokai Watch and Pokemon.

 

[Pakky]

Came into the thread during conversations about Roast Beef, fantasy monster **** sizes, game design, DLC, and a sprinkle of Smash Bros discussion.

This thread is a really wild ride.

Cheers fam, welcome, have a sandwich and stay a while.

Vocal tracks in Persona are pretty famous and a lot of fans will be upset if we only get instrumental remixes.

Yeah y'know I can feel that vibe, uh-oh indeed

Also been thinking about Master Chief... I'm on board.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS WATER IS WET THE SKY IS BLUE AND VIDEO GAMES ARE FOR LOSERS

 

[osby]

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS WATER IS WET THE SKY IS BLUE AND VIDEO GAMES ARE FOR LOSERS

Nice to know me and video games are meant for each other.

 

[Pakky]

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS WATER IS WET THE SKY IS BLUE AND VIDEO GAMES ARE FOR LOSERS

Good thing I'm not a nerd that likes DK and Pokémon.

hehe... he

...
...
...

Spoiler: ...

WOOMY

 

[Deleted member]

"Lastly, Sakurai is asked to share his thoughts on Atlus games, to which he jokingly responds by saying it’d make him happy if they could be completed in about half the amount of time. When playing Atlus games, Sakurai says that he usually has to make the commitment to put in about twice the amount of time of a normal game. Not just the Persona series but Etrian Odyssey as well. Persona Q2, which he recently started playing, is another one that falls under that category."
SAKURAI IS AN ETRIAN ODYSSEY FAN
HOLY **** THERE ARE ACTUALLY 6 OF US

Just a stupid abridged comedy. It's Gundam Wing.

Shameless self-promotion link.

"Stupid abridged comedy"
You mean the highest form of comedy humanity has ever achieved? I'll give it a watch later.

 

[Deleted member]

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS WATER IS WET THE SKY IS BLUE AND VIDEO GAMES ARE FOR LOSERS

I played one of those vidya gaems one time, that makes me an expert in game design.

 

[RandomAce]

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/12/2...and-atlus-games-in-a-special-video-interview/

"For Persona 5’s acid jazz battle theme, Sakurai says it isn’t fitting for a battle theme, and if it were Smash Bros. it definitely wouldn’t be a battle theme, yet to have the sense to still push that is something Sakurai finds quite remarkable."

uh oh

So... Acid Jazz Battle Theme isn’t going to be in Smash?

 

[ZephyrZ]

Difference is that monster collectors have obstacles where no amount levelling up is going to help, so you're forced to think more about making and thinking up an actual strategy or a different one since level advantage won't help you.

Which is fine when the point of the game is to be challenging for everyone. Pokemon is more of a "make your own experience" game.

Pokemon gives the the option of using strategy or grinding, which makes it accessible. I'm not going to grind if I don't have to. Besides, plenty of other JRPGs aside from pokemon are designed that way as well. As long as I'm not forced to grind I'm personally cool with that option.

"Lastly, Sakurai is asked to share his thoughts on Atlus games, to which he jokingly responds by saying it’d make him happy if they could be completed in about half the amount of time. When playing Atlus games, Sakurai says that he usually has to make the commitment to put in about twice the amount of time of a normal game. Not just the Persona series but Etrian Odyssey as well. Persona Q2, which he recently started playing, is another one that falls under that category."
SAKURAI IS AN ETRIAN ODYSSEY FAN
HOLY **** THERE ARE ACTUAPPY 6 OF US

Forest Rat confirmed!

 

[staindgrey]

"Stupid abridged comedy"
You mean the highest form of comedy humanity has ever achieved? I'll give it a watch later.

Haha. They can be really good, yeah. Thank you.

Fair warning, episode one is a slow start. I was still getting used to how to pace dialogue. I think by episode four I was finally getting my groove as an editor. Hopefully you like it!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Lastly, Sakurai is asked to share his thoughts on Atlus games, to which he jokingly responds by saying it’d make him happy if they could be completed in about half the amount of time. When playing Atlus games, Sakurai says that he usually has to make the commitment to put in about twice the amount of time of a normal game. Not just the Persona series but Etrian Odyssey as well. Persona Q2, which he recently started playing, is another one that falls under that category."
SAKURAI IS AN ETRIAN ODYSSEY FAN
HOLY **** THERE ARE ACTUAPPY 6 OF US

"Stupid abridged comedy"
You mean the highest form of comedy humanity has ever achieved? I'll give it a watch later.

Shish he likes Kamen Rider. There are 57 of us

 

[staindgrey]

THE MORAL OF THE STORY IS WATER IS WET THE SKY IS BLUE AND VIDEO GAMES ARE FOR LOSERS

The sky is gray here, thank you.

And it will continue to be until, like, March.

 

[Alternis]

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/12/2...and-atlus-games-in-a-special-video-interview/

"For Persona 5’s acid jazz battle theme, Sakurai says it isn’t fitting for a battle theme, and if it were Smash Bros. it definitely wouldn’t be a battle theme, yet to have the sense to still push that is something Sakurai finds quite remarkable."

uh oh

Luckily he was talking about Last Surprise, not Rivers in the Desert .

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Which is fine when the point of the game is to be challenging for everyone. Pokemon is more of a "make your own experience" game.

Pokemon gives the the option of using strategy or grinding, which makes it accessible. I'm not going to grind if I don't have to. Besides, plenty of other JRPGs aside from pokemon are designed that way as well. As long as I'm not forced to grind I'm personally cool with that option.

Forest Rat confirmed!

Except it's really NOT challenging for everyone since little kids play it with no complaints. There's honestly absolutely no point to the strategy since you can just overcome it with level advantage. It hurts the value of coming up with a strategy.

Which is why Digimon is better than Yokai Watch and Pokemon.
View attachment 184524

No complaints with that one.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.siliconera.com/2018/12/2...and-atlus-games-in-a-special-video-interview/

"For Persona 5’s acid jazz battle theme, Sakurai says it isn’t fitting for a battle theme, and if it were Smash Bros. it definitely wouldn’t be a battle theme, yet to have the sense to still push that is something Sakurai finds quite remarkable."

uh oh

Oof.

Gonna question his logic a little bit there. How is something that is legit a battle theme with the lyrics being about the battle not fit for battle? Not every battle theme needs to be crazy guitars or generic shonen BGM.