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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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MoonlitIllusion

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Breath of the Wild is a great opportunity for the Smash team to rework Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf to various degrees utilizing the flavor of the new direction and title of the series.

Link has Classic Link or Toon Link to preserve his current moveset. This would allow Sakurai to go nuts and incorporate multiple mechanics from BotW in century-old Link.
THIS. Give link the runes and Zelda the champion abilities, Their movesets are so tired and bland tbh. I swear Daruk's protection, urbosa's fury and revali's gale were MADE to be in smash

Yeah that’s what I want as well, I think Urbosa or Mipha would be good picks to make playable as well.

Basically we all agree Zelda needs another rep.
I put mipha over Urbosa cause Zora's are bigger in the series and I wanna play as one in smash, gorons too. Urbosa could be fun tho but spear > swords
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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That's not my point.

My point was that all three of the Kanto starters were iconic, but Charizard was the most popular. But importance-wise, they were on the same level. The Champions are all equally important, but one can still be chosen from them.
Except Charizard is way more popular and iconic than the other two in question. It's still not an apt comparison. Only if a Champion stands out heavily above the rest would it work. Don't forget he thought about Blastoise and Venusaur before going to the other two we actually got. Charizard was always on a higher pedestal. He's the most popular of the 9 starter forms by far. It's no coincidence that he got two Mega Evolutions(with Mewtwo, another severely popular Pokemon and one of the most popular Legendaries being the only other one to do so). The situation isn't all that similar.

He picked greninja over the other starters, there's no rule that says all of the characters belonging to a group have to get in or none of them can
Concept art. He had no idea who would be the most iconic. He just went with what he saw as the best moveset. I could see this possibly happening, though. Not heavily, mind you, but I honestly think our best chance for a Zelda newcomer is a recurring option. While Sheik is an exception, her circumstance was "I was part of Zelda and transformed into her", meaning the mechanic got both in, as they were treated as equals in importance Smash-wise. Of course, we know the ablance issues, but yeah, it didn't work out too well beyond having a fan-favorite stay in later games.
 

Senselessbreak

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So you're saying it's a matter of exposure?

If so, I doubt it's an issue. The Champions had their own amiibo made long after Breath of the Wild released. They wouldn't do that if they thought they were unpopular. And then they made an entire DLC scenario based around them, even making a big show of it at The Game Awards.

Nintendo pushes the Champions a lot, much more than they've pushed basically any other secondary Zelda characters.
Characters like charizard are reoccuring and essentially the main characters of their games. The champions are one off side characters. Even reoccuring characters like Slippy, Peppy, Dixie and Bandana Dee haven't made it in yet from their respective games, and they aren't one offs.

Sakurai ran into a trap with Sheik and to an extent Ganondorf (3 games plus HW). Sheiks only been in one game, so he had to have the TP artists make an original version for her in Smash. The reason Sakurai didn't go with SS models was probably because Ganondorf and Sheik didn't exist in those games. He has insisted that Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Sheik have the same artstyle for 3 games now, so that means he has to find a new ganondorf model since he wasn't in tBotW (Sheik was in as a costume so he'll use that).

If he adds one off characters with the same art style, he will have extra work to do next Smash game to ensure they are updated.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Characters like charizard are reoccuring and essentially the main characters of their games. The champions are one off side characters. Even reoccuring characters like Slippy, Peppy, Dixie and Bandana Dee haven't made it in yet from their respective games, and they aren't one offs.

Sakurai ran into a trap with Sheik and to an extent Ganondorf (3 games plus HW). Sheiks only been in one game, so he had to have the TP artists make an original version for her in Smash. The reason Sakurai didn't go with SS models was probably because Ganondorf and Sheik didn't exist in those games. He has insisted that Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Sheik have the same artstyle for 3 games now, so that means he has to find a new ganondorf model since he wasn't in the game (Sheik was in as a costume so he'll use that).

If he adds one off characters with the same art style, he will have extra work to do next Smash game to ensure they are updated.
Actually, the artists had an ideal design for TP Sheik beforehand, if I remember right. It's hard to remember, since it's rarely talked about. Gotta find the article again.

But otherwise, agreed. People are looking at the Zelda series differently than it really is. A lot of the characters got in more by luck or very specific circumstances. Sheik being a one-off is the exception at this point. He's not clear on how he selects the characters.
 

Opossum

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Except Charizard is way more popular and iconic than the other two in question. It's still not an apt comparison. Only if a Champion stands out heavily above the rest would it work. Don't forget he thought about Blastoise and Venusaur before going to the other two we actually got. Charizard was always on a higher pedestal. He's the most popular of the 9 starter forms by far. It's no coincidence that he got two Mega Evolutions(with Mewtwo, another severely popular Pokemon and one of the most popular Legendaries being the only other one to do so). The situation isn't all that similar.


Concept art. He had no idea who would be the most iconic. He just went with what he saw as the best moveset. I could see this possibly happening, though. Not heavily, mind you, but I honestly think our best chance for a Zelda newcomer is a recurring option. While Sheik is an exception, her circumstance was "I was part of Zelda and transformed into her", meaning the mechanic got both in, as they were treated as equals in importance Smash-wise. Of course, we know the ablance issues, but yeah, it didn't work out too well beyond having a fan-favorite stay in later games.
And if he went with Greninja for having good moveset potential, nothing is stopping him from adding a Champion for the same reason. Don't make additional barriers where none exist.
Characters like charizard are reoccuring and essentially the main characters of their games. The champions are one off side characters. Even reoccuring characters like Slippy, Peppy, Dixie and Bandana Dee haven't made it in yet from their respective games, and they aren't one offs.

Sakurai ran into a trap with Sheik and to an extent Ganondorf (3 games plus HW). Sheiks only been in one game, so he had to have the TP artists make an original version for her in Smash. The reason Sakurai didn't go with SS models was probably because Ganondorf and Sheik didn't exist in those games. He has insisted that Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Sheik have the same artstyle for 3 games now, so that means he has to find a new ganondorf model since he wasn't in the game (Sheik was in as a costume so he'll use that).

If he adds one off characters with the same art style, he will have extra work to do next Smash game to ensure they are updated.
Sakurai's never been one to plan sequels ahead of time. That's basically the whole reason he left HAL. He won't think about future Smash games, he'll cross that bridge when he gets there.
 

TheLastJinjo

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I think mipha stands out due to her water abilities and her spear, she could very well make a unique fighter. And story wise due to her relationship with link, I could see it tbh.
That's a really odd criteria for a newcomer.

Charizard is severely iconic and prominent in the anime(though not as much anymore, but the most prominent of the regular Gen 1 Starters even then. Only Pikachu edges him out, who technically is a starter now).

It's not the same thing.

I'm not saying a Champion can't get in, but they really aren't like the Gen 1 Starters in importance, popularity, or iconicness. They're lower than that. They're still awesome, don't get me wrong.
Yeah. Pokemon and Zelda characters are not the same thing. It blows my mind how people come up with these arguments. I really wanna know what the thought process is.
 
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StormC

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Zelda exists in an awkward gray area between franchises like Mario and Kirby with a heavily recurring cast and Fire Emblem and Xenoblade that start over with each game. Zelda has the main trio and then some side characters like Impa and Tingle, and a couple of minor villains like Vaati and that's kinda it. So it's just going to depend on what Sakurai thinks is worth putting in for the game, and currently he's never even considered adding someone not in the Triforce. I think ignoring the timeline of development, the throughline of "BOTW is really successful so Sakurai will add a supporting character from it" seems to fall in line with false ideas of what's a "sure thing" like Chrom or Zoroark.
 

Fenriraga

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I just want them to use this chance to de-clone Ganondorf finally.

Just do what they did with Shiek in Brawl and take liberties to make him fit into BOTW's style. And give him some new attacks. I seriously can't stomach the idea of The King Of Evil literally just being an inferior version of a Bounty-Hunting Space Racer for another game.
 
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MoonlitIllusion

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Characters like charizard are reoccuring and essentially the main characters of their games. The champions are one off side characters. Even reoccuring characters like Slippy, Peppy, Dixie and Bandana Dee haven't made it in yet from their respective games, and they aren't one offs.

Sakurai ran into a trap with Sheik and to an extent Ganondorf (3 games plus HW). Sheiks only been in one game, so he had to have the TP artists make an original version for her in Smash. The reason Sakurai didn't go with SS models was probably because Ganondorf and Sheik didn't exist in those games. He has insisted that Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Sheik have the same artstyle for 3 games now, so that means he has to find a new ganondorf model since he wasn't in the game (Sheik was in as a costume so he'll use that).

If he adds one off characters with the same art style, he will have extra work to do next Smash game to ensure they are updated.
I forgot sheik was a costume tbh (technically they're different sets of armour but eh)

I'd be down for this design.

although...


nah that's stupid
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yeah. Pokemon and Zelda characters are the same thing. It blows my mind how people come up with these arguments. I really wanna know what the thought process is.
Did you mean aren't? XD But yeah, the lack of info sucks. All we know of is Ganondorf solely got in due to the clone process, as it wasn't on his mind, which suggests he may have not been playable outside of the clone factor. I think he would've, though, but eh. Zelda/Sheik got in equally for their transformation mechanic added with "rack up damage then KO" style. Young Link was a clone point, but he also made it clear he likes the idea of having a child Link. So if the other circumstances didn't happen, it's possible we may have only gotten Link and Toon Link at this point. Maybe Zelda too, but her moveset is clearly designed with a specific style. One that needs updating, but who knows what he'd have done if Sheik wasn't in the equation.

And if he went with Greninja for having good moveset potential, nothing is stopping him from adding a Champion for the same reason. Don't make additional barriers where none exist.
A lot may be stopping him. We don't know. Also, I said that was their most likely chance of getting a newcomer among them, which isn't that high. I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if we kept the same cast. But who knows.
 

FlareHabanero

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Yeah. Pokemon and Zelda characters are the same thing. It blows my mind how people come up with these arguments. I really wanna know what the thought process is.
Lack of news, desperation to artificially inflate the importance of random characters, making up completely bull criteria, possibly noxious gas.
 

Aquastar

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A sun and moon starter could happen, but I feel like the hype for those games kind of died out a while ago. Don’t get me wrong, Dicidueye still has a great chance, but maybe a Pokémon from the new games would be better. Just my opinion.

I’d definitely like to see more characters from Donkey Kong though. Like Dixie or maybe even Funky.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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So you're saying it's a matter of exposure?

If so, I doubt it's an issue. The Champions had their own amiibo made long after Breath of the Wild released. They wouldn't do that if they thought they were unpopular. And then they made an entire DLC scenario based around them, even making a big show of it at The Game Awards.

Nintendo pushes the Champions a lot, much more than they've pushed basically any other secondary Zelda characters.
Minda and Wolf Link got an amiibo, and it let Wolf Link be in BotW as an ally to Link. Twilight Princess HD also came out at the most perfect time (probably right when development for Smash started). Midna is the most significant one off ally, and every Zelda character in Smash has been a version of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, and Wolf Link would continue that tradition, while Minda would be with him to give us someone different at the same time.

Minda and Wolf Link for Smash! :drflip:
 

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That's a really odd criteria for a newcomer.


Yeah. Pokemon and Zelda characters are not the same thing. It blows my mind how people come up with these arguments. I really wanna know what the thought process is.
Move-set potential, relevance, popularity, and a franchise that warrants a character with a super successful title coming out on the same console as this cross-over game is "odd criteria" to include a character? I want some of what you are having, brother.
 

TumblrFamous

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THIS. Give link the runes and Zelda the champion abilities, Their movesets are so tired and bland tbh. I swear Daruk's protection, urbosa's fury and revali's gale were MADE to be in smash
Yo I would LOVE to see Zelda get the Champion's abilities. It makes perfect sense if Sakurai wants to revamp her. Link having his runes, Zelda taking inspiration from the champions, and Ganondorf...can just do something different. pls.

I am a Midna supporter, as well as a smaller Impa supporter. But honestly, if we get no Zelda newcomer but revamped Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, I'd be content. I'm just worried that we won't because Sakurai has been shown to be so afraid of changing Ganondorf the past two games.
 

StormC

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A sun and moon starter could happen, but I feel like the hype for those games kind of died out a while ago. Don’t get me wrong, Dicidueye still has a great chance, but maybe a Pokémon from the new games would be better. Just my opinion.
We don't even know when gen 8 is coming out though. The games haven't even been officially announced and when Sakurai was deciding on the roster, Sun/Moon probably weren't even finished with development.
 

TheLastJinjo

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What is it with people and comparing characters that aren't compatible.

It seems every time someone brings up an issue about a character, the immediate response is to look up the roster of Super Smash Bros and scan their eyeballs across every row until they find a character where they can go "Well, what about this guy?!" But, they never seem to acknowledge the differing criterias of the characters.

You can't just say "Well, we had one of the three starter Pokemon so we can have one of the four champions of the ballad." Analogies require more stable logic than that. You can't just say "If you plant a seed a tree will grow, therefore if you plant a Lego, a Lego tree will grow!"

The seed and the lego brick are not the same is what I'm getting at.
 

MoonlitIllusion

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Yo I would LOVE to see Zelda get the Champion's abilities. It makes perfect sense if Sakurai wants to revamp her. Link having his runes, Zelda taking inspiration from the champions, and Ganondorf...can just do something different. pls.

I am a Midna supporter, as well as a smaller Impa supporter. But honestly, if we get no Zelda newcomer but revamped Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, I'd be content. I'm just worried that we won't because Sakurai has been shown to be so afraid of changing Ganondorf the past two games.
I agree, I'd honestly take completely revamped Zelda and Ganondorf and slightly changed link over any Zelda newcomer.
 

TheLastJinjo

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Did you mean aren't? XD But yeah, the lack of info sucks. All we know of is Ganondorf solely got in due to the clone process, as it wasn't on his mind, which suggests he may have not been playable outside of the clone factor. I think he would've, though, but eh. Zelda/Sheik got in equally for their transformation mechanic added with "rack up damage then KO" style. Young Link was a clone point, but he also made it clear he likes the idea of having a child Link. So if the other circumstances didn't happen, it's possible we may have only gotten Link and Toon Link at this point. Maybe Zelda too, but her moveset is clearly designed with a specific style. One that needs updating, but who knows what he'd have done if Sheik wasn't in the equation.


A lot may be stopping him. We don't know. Also, I said that was their most likely chance of getting a newcomer among them, which isn't that high. I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever if we kept the same cast. But who knows.
I saw the lack of the word "not" and quickly tried to edit it, but it looks like you already read the mistake.
 

Jubileus57

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THIS. Give link the runes and Zelda the champion abilities, Their movesets are so tired and bland tbh. I swear Daruk's protection, urbosa's fury and revali's gale were MADE to be in smash


I put mipha over Urbosa cause Zora's are bigger in the series and I wanna play as one in smash, gorons too. Urbosa could be fun tho but spear > swords
I'd rather have Urbosa and have the Sma5h spear wielder being Bandana Waddle Dee :p

Even then I'm not sure the champions are that likely. One-time characters, and moreover having to chose one out of four would be weird. Sure we did have Sheik, but if was solely because she was a dual character with Zelda. I do not hold my breath of the wild for them. The BotW representation with this game's Link is more than enough character-wise.

Not that I'd mind the Champions' absence personally, I loathe BotW with every fiber of my insignificant being.

EDIT: Damn this thread moves fast.
 
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What is it with people and comparing characters that aren't compatible.

It seems every time someone brings up an issue about a character, the immediate response is to look up the roster of Super Smash Bros and scan their eyeballs across every row until they find a character where they can go "Well, what about this guy?!" But, they never seem to acknowledge the differing criterias of the characters.

You can't just say "Well, we had one of the three starter Pokemon so we can have one of the four champions of the ballad." Analogies require more stable logic than that. You can't just say "If you plant a seed a tree will grow, therefore if you plant a Lego, a Lego tree will grow!"

The seed and the lego brick are not the same is what I'm getting at.
And considering Sakurai has never stated the criteria for Zelda characters, thinking it's NOT the same as with Pokémon is baffling.
 

Tree Gelbman

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Zelda just needs to suck it up and invent a 4th character so important that he or she has to be in every game then Sakurai will be forced to add another Zelda rep.

The problem with that is the series has always relied way way way too much on the Link/Zelda/Ganon rivalry. I mean it's interwoven into the lore of that series, so Billy Maysing that **** and going ''BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!" is kind of impossible.

And yes I just used the late great Billy Mays as a verb.
 

TheLastJinjo

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Interesting, for some reason I didn't know about this costume. Sakurai will probably use this and edit the face to make Ganon fit the art style. A lot easier then making the clothing from scratch.
DUDE! If they brought back the Ocarina of Time Ganondorf design and voice. Please! Please I would love that. I hate his voice now.
 

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Zelda exists in an awkward gray area between franchises like Mario and Kirby with a heavily recurring cast and Fire Emblem and Xenoblade that start over with each game. Zelda has the main trio and then some side characters like Impa and Tingle, and a couple of minor villains like Vaati and that's kinda it. So it's just going to depend on what Sakurai thinks is worth putting in for the game, and currently he's never even considered adding someone not in the Triforce. I think ignoring the timeline of development, the throughline of "BOTW is really successful so Sakurai will add a supporting character from it" seems to fall in line with false ideas of what's a "sure thing" like Chrom or Zoroark.
I thought you said "gay area" and I got excited :b:

I'm fine with the only Zelda characters being Triforce wielders, they're the most relevant to the series (and Sheik is there too). I really think I'd love to see Ganon as a new character just to see a new take on the other main baddie from the Zelda series, or at least another form of the big baddie. Plus it gives us two Links, two Zeldas, and two Ganondorfs.
 

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Interesting, for some reason I didn't know about this costume. Sakurai will probably use this and edit the face to make Ganon fit the art style. A lot easier then making the clothing from scratch.
I'd hope they wouldn't keep OoT Ganondorf's face tho, that ****er is ugly. Also I want long hair, long haired ganondorf is dope
 

Senselessbreak

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Zelda just needs to suck it up and invent a 4th character so important that he or she has to be in every game then Sakurai will be forced to add another Zelda rep.

The problem with that is the series has always relied way way way too much on the Link/Zelda/Ganon rivalry. I mean it's interwoven into the lore of that series, so Billy Maysing that **** and going ''BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!" is kind of impossible.

And yes I just used the late great Billy Mays as a verb.
Well Tingle got his own spinoff series. If anyone deserves to get in its Tingle, although he'd likely have a rupee as his series logo instead of the triforce. Impa is another reoccurring side character who should be playable, but her importance constantly changes from game to game.
 
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Sonic Poke

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If you guys had to pick Pokémon you love out of all 800 to add in smash which would you add?

I’d pick Golurk, a big ghost/ground type Pokémon would be unlike any other one in the game so far.
I’d also love Hawlucha, a flying/fighting type wrestler bird is almost too perfect for smash.
Lickitung. We have characters that fight with their fists, or swords, or legs. Some use tools, other their entire body. Some bite, some fart, some swallow. But nobody licks. We need more variety.
 

Tree Gelbman

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Well Tingle got his own spinoff series. If anyone deserves to get in its Tingle, although he'd likely have a rupee as his series logo instead of the mascot. Impa is another reoccurring side character who should be playable, but her importance constantly changes from game to game.
These two stand out in a sea of faces, but the problem is Impa has varying designs and ages. But she'd be my pick as I just personally think she's neat (Imagine that in a Marge Simpson voice.)

Tingle is nifty and all, but I feel as if he's far too divisive for Sakurai to consider. Japan would probably adore that. A majority of Americans would probably just use him as a punching bag in Training.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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The problem with that is the series has always relied way way way too much on the Link/Zelda/Ganon rivalry.
This is why I think it's more likely that future Zelda newcomers will be ones that are incarnations of these three characters. Toon Zelda and preferably Tetra as well.

I don't see an issue with having multiple Zeldas for that very reason. Especially when none of the Zeldas share the same name, appearance, abilities, and are all completely different characters.

Like if we had Sheik, Toon Zelda from Spirit Tracks (The Ghost/Phantom), and Tetra, none of them would be the same character in any way. All they would share is that they are ancestors of Zelda.

I don't see an issue with having multiple ancestors of the very character that the series is about. As long as they are all different characters with different abilities and in the case of Sheik and Tetra, different names. Casuals might not even know that they are Zelda.

Toon Zelda and Tetra are more iconic than any other Zelda character you could add with the exception of maybe Skull Kid.

If you step outside the Smash community, this is probably what most Legend of Zelda fans want. When it comes to people's favorite Zelda characters, it's usually an incarnation of Link/Zelda/or Ganondorf. And everyone has their favorite one. Like I said, as long as the characters themselves are completely different.
 
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TumblrFamous

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Zelda just needs to suck it up and invent a 4th character so important that he or she has to be in every game then Sakurai will be forced to add another Zelda rep.

The problem with that is the series has always relied way way way too much on the Link/Zelda/Ganon rivalry. I mean it's interwoven into the lore of that series, so Billy Maysing that **** and going ''BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!" is kind of impossible.

And yes I just used the late great Billy Mays as a verb.
First of all, honoring the great and late Billy Mays by using him as a verb is the greatest thing I've ever seen.

Second, I would be thrilled for a new 4th important character, just to shake things up. Hell, just make Impa or even Tingle so important in the next few games that Sakurai will have to add them.
 

Cosmic77

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I think ignoring the timeline of development, the throughline of "BOTW is really successful so Sakurai will add a supporting character from it" seems to fall in line with false ideas of what's a "sure thing" like Chrom or Zoroark.
We still got Robin and Lucina, so I don't know why you're using Chrom and Awakening as an example.

Regardless, you're only looking at the this topic from the perspective that benefits your argument. You say that the timeline of development suggests the entire roster was probably decided before the end of 2016, but we don't really know anything about how this game is being created, do we? Saying that it's too late for a Champion to get in is a scenario you created without any real context to go with aside from, "Well, that's how the other games were handled".

However, I'll be fair and acknowledge that my argument revolves around personal opinions as well. I don't really have a leg to stand on either.

What is it with people and comparing characters that aren't compatible.

It seems every time someone brings up an issue about a character, the immediate response is to look up the roster of Super Smash Bros and scan their eyeballs across every row until they find a character where they can go "Well, what about this guy?!" But, they never seem to acknowledge the differing criterias of the characters.

You can't just say "Well, we had one of the three starter Pokemon so we can have one of the four champions of the ballad." Analogies require more stable logic than that. You can't just say "If you plant a seed a tree will grow, therefore if you plant a Lego, a Lego tree will grow!"

The seed and the lego brick are not the same is what I'm getting at.
Y'know, you keep criticizing people using this logic, but I've yet to have seen you provide an explanation as to why the starter Pokémon and Champions are so different.

I genuinely want to know what I'm missing, so I'm all ears.

I'd rather have Urbosa and have the Sma5h spear wielder being Bandana Waddle Dee :p
Since Smash has a glaring lack of spear fighters and an abundance of sword fighters, I'd rather get both Mipha and Bandana Dee. Admittingly, Urbosa and her sword doesn't sound nearly as exciting to me as any of the other three Champions.

I know that's not a popular opinion. That's just how I feel personally. Although I'd gladly take Urbosa over nothing at all.
 
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Tree Gelbman

100 Percent Done
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
15,352
Tetra is best Zelda.

Pirate Zelda who is just like ''Princess who?"

Yes, please. I'd be all about Tetra, but I just felt like her ship sailed. Pun intended.

(And oddly enough she and Impa actually are my favorite Zelda characters.)
 

MrReyes96

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Messages
584

For Impa I would love something like this
Maybe just add a different hairstyle/face mask and other elements or her previous Designs.

I could see Sakurai pulling a Sakurai move and just using Old Impa though
 
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