Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SamuXCI]

For a new Zelda rep I want Pig/Classic Ganon, but would settle for an amalgamated, somewhat amorphous, Blight Ganon with a Calamity final Smash.

If we get that, K Rool, Ridley and/or Sylux, Wolf... that would satisfy my villianous cravings and then some.

If 3rd party villains were possible I'd also add Dr. Robotnik, Sephiroth, and Gruntilda.

 

[CroonerMike]

I personally think the Miis should be cut. Not my favorite things.

 

[AEMehr]

When it comes to Miis, I feel that they weren't handled the best. Not being allowed during online, multiple classes, etc. Personally, I hope we keep Miis, but just establish a default for them, that way they can at least be used in For Glory.

Establishing a default for custom characters is the exact opposite of what defines a custom character. What you propose below makes it much harder for a default to exist too, since the character's playstyle is too free form to balance and restrict to the point where most players can enjoy.

I do agree that Mii Fighters are poorly implemented because of the restriction of online use, but that is something the developers chose to do for reasons outside of their character design. Though I will admit the size-clause is indefinitely flawed, and as a Mii Fighter user, I hope that much will be removed and standardized so the Mii Fighters can receive proper balancing.

If it were up to me though, I would merge the Mii classes into a single Mii Fighter. Then, make the Mii Fighter the ultimate customizable fighter, with their entire moveset able to be changed. Move options would include the old classes' moves, new unique moves, or maybe even moves from existing fighters. Depending on the moves selected, the Mii would sport different gear. So, if the Mii has a move that uses a sword, than the Mii will have a sword on their back or hip. Same with other weapons, such as a gun, bow, etc. Lastly, allow for height adjustment and color selection straight in game, that way you don't have to back out and tweak with the actual Mii's height and weight.

That is a mess for balance and overall design of the character.

The class system is a clean way of allowing players to add someone they would love in Smash that follows a theme, which is the main reason they were added in the first place.
Wanted Zero? The Swordfighter exists.
Wanted Waluigi? You could make a Brawler.
Cave Story's Quote? He uses firearms, so Gunner is the place to go for him.

Your idea sounds really cool on paper, but going through the effort to add a character that can change any move between several options is just a mess.
Looking at the game competitively, people already complain the Mii Fighters have an unfair advantage for having the ability to have access to three options for their special moves that could use for counter-picking. Some areas allow them, other restrict to a specific moveset.

If a Mii Fighter had the ability to customize every attack option, they wouldn't be allowed to be used in competitive play. You have no idea what kind of character you're up against until you see what they can do in the match you're playing in. Plus, it wouldn't be worth the trouble to make sure they were using a different pummel or down tilt than they were allowed to. No doubt a Mii Fighter like that would be banned the day it was revealed.

The concept is neat, but it is too flawed to be realistic or enjoyable to play against.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I'd love to see them add more classes to the Mii Fighter's repertoire.

Speaking of which, if they were to add more classes for the Mii Fighters, what new class would you guys want to see?

Mii Athlete would be cool, they could use Wii Sports attacks. I know Brawler already has Shotput, but you could give Brawler a new Neutral B and put Shotput on Athlete.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Brawler def needs some sort of energy blast. How am I supposed to add characters based on characters from other fighting games without fireball spam?

 

[SonicMario]

My only argument against that, not that I want the Mii's gone, is that the emphasis on the Mii's on the Switch is very minuscule. User's don't even have to create a Mii to have an account. And the odds of Switch users having a large Mii collection ready for use as Fighters is much less likely than you may think.

They're still being used in some way though. MK8 Deluxe already showed Miis can be still be used as before. And if there's any game that could make people start making more Miis on their Switch even if it's somewhat less intuitive like it was without a Maker center that the Wii, 3DS, and Wii U had. It's Smash (Especially now that the Switch has more hair color choices. People can more accurately get close enough versions of their favorite anime/cartoon characters. Solves alot of problems with some of the younger fans who demand impossible characters (Or those young at heart that are making Miis based on very unlikely characters and/or real life people just for fun))

 

[Blargg888]

I'd love to see them add more classes to the Mii Fighter's repertoire.

Speaking of which, if they were to add more classes for the Mii Fighters, what new class would you guys want to see?

I'd love to see a Mage class.

A class that allows Mii Fighters to use magic elemental spells and moves. They'd also have a staff to cast and hit with.

I think that'd be really cool.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Honestly, while everyone thought miis were "boring" they had some of my favorite movesets in the game. Only reason I didnt really play them was because everyone said they sucked and I wasnt able to play them n the one mode I played. And if I went to locals I was ****ed there too since everyone banned them. Fix those 2 and give me a few good mii costumes and i'll be using them like crazy probably.

. . .I also only just learned how the **** to use Swordfighters chakram after looking it up. I feel dumb

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A character doesn't need to be reoccurring to get into Smash. Several Smash characters have only appeared once in their series, or even once period.

Yes, but the Zelda series isn't in the same boat as some. There's much fewer recognizable/iconic choices. It also revolves around 3 characters and their various forms more than anything else. Impa didn't even have a prominent role till after Brawl. She had a slightly big role in OOT, but it wasn't very prominent. She was a background character most of the time.

Then you have Tingle, the only other notable one beyond Impa who had his own games, but his popularity is too mixed to make him an easy addition. Though moveset issues could also be a problem too.

Let's also note that the only Zelda character who is one-off is Sheik, and that's solely due to the fact she and Zelda were connected at the hip due to a gameplay mechanic(transformations), but also the "rack up damage with Sheik, and finish 'em off with Zelda", which obviously didn't work out due to gameplay balancing not being Sakurai's forte. Brawl it got worse, of course. Anyway, if it wasn't for that, Zelda may not have gotten in either. And Ganondorf solely got in due to the fact he was an easy clone to make. He may have not gotten in beyond that. We don't know. Toon Link on the other hand probably would've appeared due to Sakurai feeling a younger Link is important to represent the series. That literally leaves 1-2 characters he felt a necessity, while 3 others got in due to very specific circumstances.

The series wasn't really primed for newcomers in the first place. It was about the main characters as is, and with 3 of them not considered severely important in the long run(he almost cut Sheik, which due to the fact there was TP concept art, she ninja'd herself back). That's just how problematic the series' representation is. It also fits an issue with the series in general outside of Smash. They don't try to make other characters playable most of the time bar spin-offs. Zelda is only playable on a technicality in Spirit Tracks, wayyyyyyyy later. You have to look to hacks/Zelda Classic just to play as most other characters in a more proper-style Zelda game. HW at least somewhat alleviated this, but not by much. If Tingle's games were worldwide, we might have gotten him. Impa, as noted, is becoming more notable, but she suffers from inconsistent designs. Zelda, Link, and Ganodorf are pretty overall consistent in their basic design, though there's clearly differences here and there. Sheik too among her various appearances(ignoring her unique showing in Scribblenauts, which gives her a toon-like style).

 

[Ridel]

All I want changed for Miis are varied sizes. Keeping them at a consistent medium size would make balancing them much easier, because it appears very clear to me that they tried to balance around the different sizes but failed. Obviously you could try to balance ever minuscule size difference but idk if they wanna do that.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Honestly, while everyone thought miis were "boring" they had some of my favorite movesets in the game. Only reason I didnt really play them was because everyone said they sucked and I wasnt able to play them n the one mode I played. And if I went to locals I was ****ed there too since everyone banned them. Fix those 2 and give me a few good mii costumes and i'll be using them like crazy probably.

. . .I also only just learned how the **** to use Swordfighters chakram after looking it up. I feel dumb

Charkram seemed painfully useless until you learn to properly use it. I remember using it for the first time and being full of questions in regards to why they would design something so obviously bad

 

[Hinata]

I'd love to see a Mage class.

A class that allows Mii Fighters to use magic elemental spells and moves. They'd also have a staff to cast and hit with.

I think that'd be really cool.

I was thinking the same thing, actually.

Plus, if they had put that class in Smash 4, the Ashley Mii costume would've made infinitely more sense.

 

[StormC]

I'd like a new Zelda character since we haven't really gotten one since Melee, but nobody in BOTW really fits the bill (Sakurai isn't gonna pick one of the four champions over anybody else and their popularity is a non factor since the roster was definitely picked before 2017). Impa is the most practical option, though I'm rooting for Ganon. Don't see a one-off being added any time soon.

 

[Deleted member]

My only argument against that, not that I want the Mii's gone, is that the emphasis on the Mii's on the Switch is very minuscule. User's don't even have to create a Mii to have an account. And the odds of Switch users having a large Mii collection ready for use as Fighters is much less likely than you may think.

This actually raises an interesting point.

With this being a new game, the Fighting Mii Team may not even be back. We have yet to see a recurring Multi-Man team.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I don't think Miis are gong. But there's probably going to be some revamp to them that will make them actually viable and allowed in competitive/online Battles. Personally, I think the need for custom move sets ruined characters like the Miis and Palutena for me, making them totally nonviable in online or competitive (with Palutena stuck with a horrible default moveset, and Miis straightup not allowed).

Speaking of which, we seldom talk about customization on its own. Do we expect any changes to how it's handled this time?

 

[AEMehr]

I'd love to see them add more classes to the Mii Fighter's repertoire.

Speaking of which, if they were to add more classes for the Mii Fighters, what new class would you guys want to see?

The Mii Fighters follow archetypes than they do themes.

While a Miigician is neat, I think it's too specific. A Mii Fighter designed similarly to the heavies would make sense I think, maybe not a grappler in particular (because I feel Brawler needs to be played like a psuedo-grappler ala Falcon). But something that's hard to kill and hits back really hard. Probably a "Mii Tank".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Miis were some of my favorite newcomers.

They're just really fun.

 

[Chandeelure]

The more I look at the leak, the faker it looks.

Specially the pic of Mario and ICs, lol.

Yes, I still want to talk about it, Miis are boring.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, while everyone thought miis were "boring" they had some of my favorite movesets in the game. Only reason I didnt really play them was because everyone said they sucked and I wasnt able to play them n the one mode I played. And if I went to locals I was ****ed there too since everyone banned them. Fix those 2 and give me a few good mii costumes and i'll be using them like crazy probably.

. . .I also only just learned how the **** to use Swordfighters chakram after looking it up. I feel dumb

Not the only one. I love playing as them. They're honestly really fun. Only thing I'd have liked is more costume options at this point. No Ridley one suckkkkkkks.

 

[MrReyes96]

I remember wanting two characters really bad for brawl
Miis and animal crossing villager

I remember even making a moveset for Miis based on Wii sports, Wii party, etc
Though I suppose what we got was cool but at the expense of not being able to play them online or in tournaments

 

[Blargg888]

This actually raises an interesting point.

With this being a new game, the Fighting Mii Team may not even be back. We have yet to see a recurring Multi-Man team.

This is actually a good point.
Polygons, Wireframes, Alloys, and Miis.

I wonder what could be next.

The Mii Fighters follow archetypes than they do themes.

While a Miigician is neat, I think it's too specific. A Mii Fighter designed similarly to the heavies would make sense I think, maybe not a grappler in particular (because I feel Brawler needs to be played like a psuedo-grappler ala Falcon). But something that's hard to kill and hits back really hard. Probably a "Mii Tank".

That's true. Whenever I play Mii Gunner, my play style tends to revolve around a crap ton of zoning.

Mii Swordfighter can be a bit difficult to work with, as it can be rather hard to break through an opponents defenses, but it's still a very fun character.

 

[Opossum]

Miis allow me to have Captain Jack Sparrow fight Monika so I'm totally cool with them coming back.


Also the Mii Swordfighter's Airborne Assault was totally one of the moves Sakurai made for Chrom before deciding against him and no one can tell me otherwise. It fits too well.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

The Mii Fighters follow archetypes than they do themes.

While a Miigician is neat, I think it's too specific. A Mii Fighter designed similarly to the heavies would make sense I think, maybe not a grappler in particular (because I feel Brawler needs to be played like a psuedo-grappler ala Falcon). But something that's hard to kill and hits back really hard. Probably a "Mii Tank".

But anyway. I don't know, doesn't the size system kinda make that idea kinda moot? Because thats what making a big mii does.

 

[Blargg888]

Miis allow me to have Captain Jack Sparrow fight Monika so I'm totally cool with them coming back.


Also the Mii Swordfighter's Airborne Assault was totally one of the moves Sakurai made for Chrom before deciding against him and no one can tell me otherwise. It fits too well.

I always think of that one "Who taught you how to fight like that!?" cutscene from FE:A whenever I use that move.

It's my main Swordfighter Side-B, because of its insane amount of horizontal recovery momentum.

 

[A Distant Demon]

man I forgot how cool most of these moves were since I haven't looked at them in a while.

A charegeble punch, "onslaught," throwing shuriken and Chakrams, rainbow waves and a ****ing helicopter kick

god they were cool

 

[CroonerMike]

The more I look at the leak, the faker it looks.

Specially the pic of Mario and ICs, lol.

Yes, I still want to talk about it, Miis are boring.

I'm having the opposite problem. The more I look at it the I believe it.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Miis were some of my favorite newcomers.

They're just really fun.

I personally loved Mii Gunner. I just really wish there was some way to play them online. When I played the 3DS, most of my Smash hours came from For Glory mode. I feel I missed out a bit.

 

[vaanrose]

man I forgot how cool most of these moves were since I haven't looked at them in a while.

A charegeble punch, "onslaught," throwing shuriken and Chakrams, rainbow waves and a ****ing helicopter kick

god they were cool

I want fewer "cool" moves, more goofy moves. Miis are inherently ridiculous, it's impossible to make one that doesn't look like a goofy cartoon character. I'd appreciate a Mii moveset that embraces that.

 

[Blargg888]

One of my favorite special moves in Smash 4 is Stealth Shot.

It's not very useful in 1v1s, but in FFAs it's the perfect surprise.

Also, Mii Gunner's Bomb Down B makes the best noise ever. It's just so satisfying.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I want fewer "cool" moves, more goofy moves. Miis are inherently ridiculous, it's impossible to make one that doesn't look like a goofy cartoon character. I'd appreciate a Mii moveset that embraces that.

That's the opposite of what I want lol. I mean if it meant no moves taken away and it's just more custom moves sure, but im not really a fan of goofy moves (maybe it's because of Luigi's smash representation but ehh). Except maybe shot put. Dont know why I like that one.


Great now im going to be sad if Miis get cut when before today I probably would have been apathetic. ****.

 

[AlphaSSB]

Establishing a default for custom characters is the exact opposite of what defines a custom character. What you propose below makes it much harder for a default to exist too, since the character's playstyle is too free form to balance and restrict to the point where most players can enjoy.

I do agree that Mii Fighters are poorly implemented because of the restriction of online use, but that is something the developers chose to do for reasons outside of their character design. Though I will admit the size-clause is indefinitely flawed, and as a Mii Fighter user, I hope that much will be removed and standardized so the Mii Fighters can receive proper balancing.

That is a mess for balance and overall design of the character.

The class system is a clean way of allowing players to add someone they would love in Smash that follows a theme, which is the main reason they were added in the first place.
Wanted Zero? The Swordfighter exists.
Wanted Waluigi? You could make a Brawler.
Cave Story's Quote? He uses firearms, so Gunner is the place to go for him.

Your idea sounds really cool on paper, but going through the effort to add a character that can change any move between several options is just a mess.
Looking at the game competitively, people already complain the Mii Fighters have an unfair advantage for having the ability to have access to three options for their special moves that could use for counter-picking. Some areas allow them, other restrict to a specific moveset.

If a Mii Fighter had the ability to customize every attack option, they wouldn't be allowed to be used in competitive play. You have no idea what kind of character you're up against until you see what they can do in the match you're playing in. Plus, it wouldn't be worth the trouble to make sure they were using a different pummel or down tilt than they were allowed to. No doubt a Mii Fighter like that would be banned the day it was revealed.

The concept is neat, but it is too flawed to be realistic or enjoyable to play against.

I think you really over-analyzed what I said.

The idea of having a set default would be used for modes such as For Glory and tournament play, as I had originally stated. This would apply to how they are now, as well as with the more in-depth customization concept. Essentially, 1-1-1-1 with a stock Mii height. Even if having a set default goes against their concept, they would at least be fair to use along with other stock characters.

In regards to having a highly customizable Mii, of course it has flaws, but it's literally just an idea I think would be fun to see if implemented well. Yes, the Miis would likely be banned competitively, but that's where the idea of setting a default comes in.

In the end, it's just a thought.

 

[Fenriraga]

Honestly, I never liked how Miis were handled in Smash period. I don't like their moves, I don't like the three way fighter split, and I don't like they way they were approached period.

I want a Mii fighter that fights like a Mii. I wanna see the stupid silly stuff Miis do from Tomodachi Life, Miitopia, Wii Play, Sports, Music, Party, all of that stuff. I get they wanted to go with the "Anyone can be in Smash" approach by making them generic fighters, but making a fighter intentionally generic is such backwards logic in a game like Smash.

If Miis do come back, I'd rather they just be what we know Miis for. And that is being the weirdest little buggers this side of gaming.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I want fewer "cool" moves, more goofy moves. Miis are inherently ridiculous, it's impossible to make one that doesn't look like a goofy cartoon character. I'd appreciate a Mii moveset that embraces that.

Mii Clown class? I'd be okay with that~

 

[Starcutter]

I think a mage/psychic Mii would be great, it would make sense for trying to include Earthbound characters, certain Fire Emblem characters, and characters like Neku from TWEWY


Side note, really hope Neku gets in as a Mii Costume. I've given up on him being playable, but hopefully I can pretend with a Mii costume

 

[JamesDNaux]

If Miis do come back, I'd rather they just be what we know Miis for.

We know Miis for being customizeable "avatars" that change their function to fit the game.

Smash represented them perfectly in that sense. They changed their function to be fighters, and are still customizeable.


Though they could still use work. It'd be better if it were a single Mii you could fully customize rather than three different sets.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I want fewer "cool" moves, more goofy moves. Miis are inherently ridiculous, it's impossible to make one that doesn't look like a goofy cartoon character. I'd appreciate a Mii moveset that embraces that.

I want more variety with special moves in general. Many of the brawlers moves tend to feel samey, for example, which really discouraged making multiple Miis in my opinion.

Mostly, though, I just replied to you because I am a big fan of the character choices in your sig. As I only visit here sporadically now is the first time I really had an opportunity to look at it, haha.

 

[vaanrose]

I want more variety with special moves in general. Many of the brawlers moves tend to feel samey, for example, which really discouraged making multiple Miis in my opinion.

Mostly, though, I just replied to you because I am a big fan of the character choices in your sig. As I only visit here sporadically now is the first time I really had an opportunity to look at it, haha.

Bomberman for life.

 

[Senselessbreak]

So I guess there are rambling of a potential FE direct soon? Could be interesting. I imagine Pokemon is right around the corner too. Wonder what that would mean about a Smash direct.

If Pokemon and Fire Emblem are pre-E3 that could mean Smash is going to carry E3 instead of having its own direct.

 

[Blargg888]

If Miis do come back, I'd rather they just be what we know Miis for. And that is being the weirdest little buggers this side of gaming.

But Miis in Smash already are what we know Miis for.

Miis are always meant to represent people. They're not solo characters, there is no standard, they're everyone.

Games like Tomodachi Life aren't for making Miis interact with each other, they're for making People you know, and characters you love get into wacky antics. That's a large part of the appeal. The same goes for games like Miitopia, and the Stretpass Mii games.

Those games aren't about Miis themselves, but rather putting representations of people and characters into fun and interesting scenarios and adventures.

Smash is an extention of this. You can create a character, and make that character fight against any character. That's one of the greatest appeals of not just Miis, but Smash as a whole.

I will eternally love the ability to pit Mario against Sonic, Pit against Bayonetta, Link vs Cloud, Bowser vs Ganondorf, etc.

Yes, movesets, history, and representation are a big part of Smash, but Smash has always been about people's favorite characters fighting each other. Regardless of how they're represented.

I can make Reggie punch Miyamoto in the face with an uppercut.

That's awesome!

 

[Spazzy_D]

Bomberman for life.

I think it's about time I update my avatar to diversify my interests, though.

(Also awesome to see Erdrick support... unless that's Gil? Still a good choice.)