Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ligersandtigons]

Spoiler: Switch Roster

Just a roster I made, it's like in between for what I would like to see and what I'm expecting lol
- no cuts
- Ice Climbers, Snake, Wolf are returning vets
- Alph goes from alt --> clone
- 14 newcomers

Spoiler: Newcomers

1. Paper Mario
2. King K. Rool
3. Dixie Kong
4. Excitebiker
5. Black Shadow
6. Bandana Waddle Dee
7. Decidueye
8. Isabelle
9. Rex & Pyra
10. Takamaru
11. Inkling
12. Spring Man
13. Bomberman
14. Rayman

Spoiler: Brief Thoughts

1. I think this game will be Smash 4.5 instead of an actual full blown new entry, which is why I have no cuts
2. No Zelda newcomer sadly, but Link, Zelda & Ganondorf all get reworked to various degrees (Link and Toon Link are no longer semi clones and Ganondorf has a completely new moveset and playstyle)
3. Sorry, but I'm not a believer in a playable Ridley working out
4. I think Excitebiker can have an interesting gimmick built around on-foot and on-bike combat and a fuel mechanic (I'll explain it better in a later post)
5. Black Shadow inherits Ganondorf's old moveset
6. I was strongly considering cutting the Mii Fighters because I don't think the whole customization stuff should return, however I think Mii costumes are pretty cool and fun, which is the only reason I would like to see them back
7. Captain Toad, Simon Belmont, and Crash are the only characters I was seriously thinking of adding but decided against it because I feel like the roster is already overly ambitious as it is

 

[Blargg888]

Are you saying that anyone who manages to be an Assist Trophy twice is GUARANTEED a spot?!

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH

PREPARE YOURSELF!

It's Devil time, baby!
And who's that I hear in the distance?
"TINGLE TINGLE KOOLOO-LIMPAH!"

If I recall correctly, Mario is the only series to have more than one Assist Trophy.

You might have been thinking of Brawl, where this statement was true.

In Brawl, only the Mario series had multiple Assist Trophies.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

WarioWare and Mother also have two ATs.

So WarioWare has Kat and Ana and Ashley.

Mother has Starman and Jeff.

 

[92MilesPrower]

If we're still discussing retro characters, Mach Rider is definitely in the running because of that model mech Sakurai got some time ago with a machine gun. We discussed it many pages ago, but we decided that the toy machine gun he got for reference was hinting at the inclusion of Mach Rider, or Elma or someone else from XCX.

 

[Deleted member]

Combined with this and your sig, I think you're secretly an anime villain.

No really..

That sig is a threat.

Holy ****.

He's the Leffen of Smash Speculation.

If Competitive Smash can have a villain, why can't Smash Speculation?

 

[Bowserlick]

Mach Rider with armor that can interlock to form a motorcycle. Too cool.

 

[RouffWestie]

but I do think it is on the supporters of any character to give us a demonstrable reason why that character would be interesting

What's your reasoning behind this? We're random fans spread out on the internet who have no influence over his decisions. You'll get some hypothetical movesets or wiki descriptions, but they ultimately won't offer any reflection on Sakurai's creative process.

 

[Blargg888]

Spoiler: Switch Roster

Just a roster I made, it's like in between for what I would like to see and what I'm expecting lol
- no cuts
- Ice Climbers, Snake, Wolf are returning vets
- Alph goes from alt --> clone
- 14 newcomers

Spoiler: Newcomers

1. Paper Mario
2. King K. Rool
3. Dixie Kong
4. Excitebiker
5. Black Shadow
6. Bandana Waddle Dee
7. Decidueye
8. Isabelle
9. Rex & Pyra
10. Takamaru
11. Inkling
12. Spring Man
13. Bomberman
14. Rayman

Spoiler: Brief Thoughts

1. I think this game will be Smash 4.5 instead of an actual full blown new entry, which is why I have no cuts
2. No Zelda newcomer sadly, but Link, Zelda & Ganondorf all get reworked to various degrees (Link and Toon Link are no longer semi clones and Ganondorf has a completely new moveset and playstyle)
3. Sorry, but I'm not a believer in a playable Ridley working out
4. I think Excitebiker can have an interesting gimmick built around on-foot and on-bike combat and a fuel mechanic (I'll explain it better in a later post)
5. Black Shadow inherits Ganondorf's old moveset
6. I was strongly considering cutting the Mii Fighters because I don't think the whole customization stuff should return, however I think Mii costumes are pretty cool and fun, which is the only reason I would like to see them back
7. Captain Toad, Simon Belmont, and Crash are the only characters I was seriously thinking of adding but decided against it because I feel like the roster is already overly ambitious as it is

There's more to Miis than just their customization.

All 3 Mii Fighters have largely unique general movesets. Cutting the Miis is like cutting 3 completely unique characters.

 

[Icedragonadam]

I would want Mach Rider if it means having a match between Samus, Sheik, Lucina, and Mach Rider.

 

[Lyndis_]

If we're still discussing retro characters, Mach Rider is definitely in the running because of that model mech Sakurai got some time ago with a machine gun. We discussed it many pages ago, but we decided that the toy machine gun he got for reference was hinting at the inclusion of Mach Rider, or Elma or someone else from XCX.

It could also easily be a Custom Robo character, since just about every iteration of Ray uses a similar gun by default, and obviously is a mecha. I'd love to have any (or even all) three of these characters honestly.

Spoiler: Ray Mark II's trophy from Melee

There's also the high chance it's something we don't even expect at all. However I'm still a pretty firm believer we will almost definitely be getting Elma or another Xenoblade X character this time around. It fits the timeframe too perfectly and seems like something Sakurai would definitely want in.

 

[Spatman]

There's more to Miis than just their customization.

All 3 Mii Fighters have largely unique general movesets. Cutting the Miis is like cutting 3 completely unique characters.

The 3 dullest moveset in the game, tho

But then, actually several miis' moves are blatant rip off of other characters' moves

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The 3 dullest moveset in the game, tho

How can you say that when Palutena exists?

 

[Wyoming]

if I had a choice between Miis or three characters, I'll take the latter no doubt about it.

But I am biased...I never cared for the Miis anywhere.

 

[PLATINUM7]

The 3 dullest moveset in the game, tho

But then, actually several miis' moves are blatant rip off of other characters' moves

At least they aren't clones.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

This is the model sakurai bought, could be for mach rider but my first instinct is skell (and that's totally not cause elma is my most wanted character...totally...)

 

[Deleted member]

I realize my bias towards Ashley could be blinding me towards things, but I feel like the fact that she received an Assist Trophy and a Mii Costume in Smash 4 only point more towards her inclusion. It proves that Sakurai wants to represent her in the game as much as possible, and the logical next step in this ladder of representation is a playable inclusion.

I would argue that characters like Takamaru and Isabelle are rather likely for the same reasons.

So that means Skull Kid is likely too, right?
He was an Assist and the Majora's Mask was a DLC headgear for Mii Fighters.

I mean you definitely aren't wrong. Smash game history doesn't really work in her favor. However her role in Smash did significantly increase between Brawl and Smash 4, and Ashley is more significant than quite a few popular choices. I think she suffers from not really being an "all star", but there really aren't any real "all stars" getting in her way, either. I suppose time will tell.

Honestly, I doubt it's because she's not really an "all-star" that she didn't make the cut.
I believe it's because the Wario series is tied to Mario, and thus any character from there has to deal with competition throughout the extended Marioverse and possible misgivings on Sakurai's part about crowding the roster with said Marioverse.

 

[PLATINUM7]

This is the model sakurai bought, could be for mach rider but my first instict is skell (and that's totally not cause elma is my most wanted character...totally...)

Didn't he buy it for the gun though, not necessarily the mech?

Or am I remembering wrong?

 

[Blargg888]

The 3 dullest moveset in the game, tho

Mii Gunner's moveset is honestly one of my favorite in the entire game. The projectile forward-air, the stretchy up air and side smash, the down smash is loads of fun, the up tilt is extremely satisfying to use, and the original specials like the grenade and bomb are just fantastic.

I really don't think the Miis are boring at all. They're just different is all.

if I had a choice between Miis or three characters, I'll take the latter no doubt about it.

But I am biased...I never cared for the Miis anywhere.

Personally, I'd take the Miis.

I really do love playing as the Miis. I take every chance I have to do so.

 

[vaanrose]

I don't remember if we ever determined where the ESRB leak footage was obtained or who got their hands on it in the first place. If it was someone at the ESRB themselves, Nintendo, or somewhere in between.

I did. I know more or less the whole story, and I've spoken with the actual guy who shot the videos several times. It's actually somewhat frustrating how few people remember this, because I see so much misinformation about who he was or what happened to him even though I've attempted to explain the story several times.

He interned at the ESRB, and he shot some videos which he shared with a couple friends, and then they shared them with a couple friends, who shared them with a couple friends, and so on, until eventually some random kid got (most) the videos and posted them to 4chan. Even before they blew up, when most people were still calling them fake, the original guy turned himself in to the higher ups at the ESRB. As he told me the story, that's the biggest reason he got off more or less scot-free. He did not have to pay a huge fine, he didn't go to jail or anything like that. He was never even personally contacted by Nintendo. He was let go from his job, and that was that.

And yes, since people have questioned it, I was able to verify he was who he said he was. If any of you remember the "Palutena has a stripper pole taunt" thing, that was among the things present in the ESRB materials that did not get leaked, that he was able for confirm existed well before they were seen by the public.

Oh, and for the record, since this used to be a common "fact" people constantly brought up, he said the ESRB didn't care at all about Tharja's trophy, and made no request to remove it or censor it. That was entirely on Nintendo.

There's this mindset people have that leakers risk everything and get in massive trouble if they get caught, but, from what I've seen with this leak and with others, that's not really the case. It seems to just be a facet of the industry that companies just have to grit their teeth and deal with, like bad fan games and rule 34 artwork.

Attempting to cover up all trace of the leak and take down all the videos is a losing battle that last time only served to get more people to see it. I'm not saying the Springman leak is legitimate. I am saying it's not like Nintendo is required to send a take down notice. If the last strategy didn't work, why not try a different one?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Didn't he buy it for the gun though, not necessarily the mech?

Or am I remembering wrong?

I think he mentioned the rifle specifically but I feel like if he just wanted the rifle he wouldn't buy a whole figure y'know

 

[Hinata]

So that means Skull Kid is likely too, right?
He was an Assist and the Majora's Mask was a DLC headgear for Mii Fighters.

Well, I'd certainly say we're due for a new Zelda character...

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

So here is my updated speculation roster in which I tried to remove basically all bias, with the exception of Chibi Robo because I believe he actually has a reasonable chance. I left the new Pokemon as a random Pokemon because, honestly, none of us can really say for certain who it would be. I think this roster is very realistic under the impression of "no cuts, several newcomers". There shouldn't be any cuts unless I overlooked something. Lemme know what ya think.

Also this is pre-DLC. I thoroughly expect to see Rex, Spring Man, and other newcomers join via DLC, as well as some third party characters who could be in the base roster. Basically, I didn't want to make the base roster gigantic, especially considering how much work each character takes according to Sakurai. I think this game will see a lot of DLC support to fill in some holes.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

View attachment 141594

So here is my updated speculation roster which I tried to remove basically all bias, with the exception of Chibi Robo because I believe he actually has a reasonable chance. I left the new Pokemon as a random Pokemon because, honestly, none of us can really say for certain who it would be. I think this roster is very realistic under the impression of "no cuts, several newcomers". There shouldn't be any cuts unless I overlooked something. Lemme know what ya think.

I'm gonna be pissed if we don't get another Zelda rep tbh, but watch it happen. And not to start up the captain toad debate but jumping aside I think Paper Mario is more likely, he seems far more popular

 

[ligersandtigons]

There's more to Miis than just their customization.

All 3 Mii Fighters have largely unique general movesets. Cutting the Miis is like cutting 3 completely unique characters.

For me, I'd rather their movesets be given to a newcomer (eg, swordfighter --> takamaru) and/or dispersed among the roster (eg, some of gunner's attacks are given to samus and the inklings)

but honestly, I personally wouldn't miss their movesets at all (but that's just me lol)

 

[Luminario]

How can you say that when Palutena exists?

She doesn't deserve such slander. Most of her moves have at least some unique property despite their uselessness. Her moveset is terrible but damn, is it flashy.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I'm gonna be pissed if we don't get another Zelda rep tbh, but watch it happen. And not to start up the captain toad debate but jumping aside I think Paper Mario is more likely, he seems far more popular

I think Paper Mario vs Captain Toad depends more on where you look, honestly. They're both very popular, I'll agree. Either one is possible. This is my belief towards what will happen, though. People have wanted a Toad for forever, and we already have 2 Marios even if Paper Mario is different.
In regards to Zelda characters, I want to put a new one on there really bad. But who? I can't decide who is more important than who, and because of that, I think it will continue to suffer the same fate.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

She doesn't deserve such slander. Most of her moves have at least some unique property despite their uselessness. Her moveset is terrible but damn, is it flashy.

Her moveset sucks but boy is it pretty to look at, those smash attacks especially, and that up tilt. Sakurai did the damn thing

I think Paper Mario vs Captain Toad depends more on where you look, honestly. They're both very popular, I'll agree. Either one is possible. This is my belief towards what will happen, though. People have wanted a Toad for forever, and we already have 2 Marios even if Paper Mario is different.
In regards to Zelda characters, I want to put a new one on there really bad. But who? I can't decide who is more important than who, and because of that, I think it will continue to suffer the same fate.

I mean if this game is really influenced by the ballot, I could see us getting midna or something based on popularity alone. Or one of the champions maybe who knows. Why can't Zelda just have reoccuring characters for ***** sake??

 

[Reality_Ciak]

For a new Zelda rep I want Pig/Classic Ganon, but would settle for an amalgamated, somewhat amorphous, Blight Ganon with a Calamity final Smash.

If we get that, K Rool, Ridley and/or Sylux, Wolf... that would satisfy my villianous cravings and then some.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

For a new Zelda rep I want Pig/Classic Ganon, but would settle for an amalgamated, somewhat amorphous, Blight Ganon with a Calamity final Smash.

If we get that, K Rool, Ridley and/or Sylux, Wolf... that would satisfy my villianous cravings and then some.

Not to say wolf is a lock...but wolf is a lock. Unless sakurai finally listens to the fans ridley isn't happening, it's too early for sylux and k rool depends on how big of a role that ballot plays

 

[AEMehr]

Gunner and Brawler are flashy characters, you only notice this if you fight a good player, just because you don't care about them doesn't mean they aren't interesting or unique.
Swordfighter is kinda lame in comparison, but they do unique stuff too. I'd argue some of their specials take some inspiration from Lloyd Irving.

Realistically I feel it is smarter to consider the possibility of them adding a new Mii Fighter type than it is to see them cutting the three and recycling their concepts into new fighters.
Swordfighter doesn't do anything Samurai like aside from having the option to throw a Shuriken.
Gunner's arm canon creates small explosions, the Inklings shoot ink. It's unlikely the Splattershot will shoot Ink bubbles that explode for closer range attacks because they just don't do that.

It's also a detriment to the characters you want to inherit these moves. They deserve better than to take recycled ideas.

 

[AlphaSSB]

When it comes to Miis, I feel that they weren't handled the best. Not being allowed during online, multiple classes, etc. Personally, I hope we keep Miis, but just establish a default for them, that way they can at least be used in For Glory.

If it were up to me though, I would merge the Mii classes into a single Mii Fighter. Then, make the Mii Fighter the ultimate customizable fighter, with their entire moveset able to be changed. Move options would include the old classes' moves, new unique moves, or maybe even moves from existing fighters. Depending on the moves selected, the Mii would sport different gear. So, if the Mii has a move that uses a sword, than the Mii will have a sword on their back or hip. Same with other weapons, such as a gun, bow, etc. Lastly, allow for height adjustment and color selection straight in game, that way you don't have to back out and tweak with the actual Mii's height and weight.

 

[Blargg888]

For me, I'd rather their movesets be given to a newcomer (eg, swordfighter --> takamaru) and/or dispersed among the roster (eg, some of gunner's attacks are given to samus and the inklings)

but honestly, I personally wouldn't miss their movesets at all (but that's just me lol)

I suppose, but that doesn't really work for those of use that like playing as Mii Gunner.

Samus is a completely different character with different special moves, floatier jumps, and a moveset that I'm personally not really a fan of. Furthermore, I'm sure fans of Samus already like the moveset she has, and might not take well to it being changed.

As for Inklings, they shoot ink, not energy. It wouldn't really make sense.

Trying to send off the Mii's Moves onto other characters is similar logic to give Ness Lucas' custom moves in return for them not being playable. It's a nice idea in theory, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't work out the way people think it would.

And while it's true than each Mii takes some of its moves from other characters, most of them are original. And even the ones that are similar/taken tend to be modified and different in effect.

I mean if this game is really influenced by the ballot, I could see us getting midna or something based on popularity alone. Or one of the champions maybe who knows. Why can't Zelda just have reoccuring characters for ***** sake??

A character doesn't need to be reoccurring to get into Smash. Several Smash characters have only appeared once in their series, or even once period.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I think Miis should just be given a standard size within Smash. As Alpha stated, standardize them. It'd make them so much easier to use/make/play against if they just had a standardized size/weight, and there wouldn't really even need to be a debate as to whether they should be able to be used online/in competitive play.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I think anyone predicting that Mii Fighters will be cut are in for a surprise.

The Mii costumes are EASILY monetizable and I am sure they made Nintendo a pretty penny during DLC. That's not something they would want to give up.

More importantly, though, Sakurai added them for a particular purpose: to give requested characters that don't have a chance for Smash a playable role. That hasn't changed.

 

[PF9]

I should get a job at Sirius XM so I can program a new channel called "Super Smash Radio". The channel would have programming blocks dedicated to video game music in the following styles: tracks from the Smash series, VGM in general, and tracks which inspired the songs in Smash. It would also have programming blocks dedicated to popular music one could play while playing Smash. This channel would be created in partnership with Nintendo.

Also, everyone who was playable in a past Smash game should be playable in Smash Switch.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I think anyone predicting that Mii Fighters will be cut are in for a surprise.

The Mii costumes are EASILY monetizable and I am sure they made Nintendo a pretty penny during DLC. That's not something they would want to give up.

More importantly, though, Sakurai added them for a particular purpose: to give requested characters that don't have a chance for Smash a playable role. That hasn't changed.

My only argument against that, not that I want the Mii's gone, is that the emphasis on the Mii's on the Switch is very minuscule. User's don't even have to create a Mii to have an account. And the odds of Switch users having a large Mii collection ready for use as Fighters is much less likely than you may think.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

Didn't he buy it for the gun though, not necessarily the mech?

Or am I remembering wrong?

Sakurai said he bought the figure for the rifle. But that doesn't mean he won't use the mecha itself to reference another character(s). It's kinda odd for him to buy a mecha figure when he could've easily bought a generic human figure holding a rifle.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Buff mii fighters, make them playable online instead of being a character that cant do everything other characters can, and make Viridi and Chrom costumes available right from the start instead of needing to pay thanks.

 

[Hinata]

I'd love to see them add more classes to the Mii Fighter's repertoire.

Speaking of which, if they were to add more classes for the Mii Fighters, what new class would you guys want to see?

 

[Spazzy_D]

My only argument against that, not that I want the Mii's gone, is that the emphasis on the Mii's on the Switch is very minuscule. User's don't even have to create a Mii to have an account. And the odds of Switch users having a large Mii collection ready for use as Fighters is much less likely than you may think.

Seems easy enough to move the Mii creation tools to inside Smash itself.