Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Krysco]

Just deleted my Brawl VS records so here's the same deal for this game:

Spoiler

This is actually the one game so far in favour of clones not being a low priority if we just look at the records. As usual, most of the original 12 was put first, this time only Puff wasn't. Falco and Ganon are actually put before the newcomers despite being clones and the likes of Marth, G&W and Puff were actually put near the end despite 2 of them being unique and one being a semi clone. We know Sonic was put in very late into Brawl and I've already said my piece on Wolf sharing certain aspects from others and then Puff is a semi clone while Toon Link is a clone, semi or otherwise.

However, we also know that the likes of Dr. Mario, Roy and Mewtwo were planned for Brawl but didn't get in. 2 of those characters are clones. I would also mention Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik but seeing as how they've never been in Smash altogether, I'm not going to make the immediate assumption that they would be clones or semi clones of Zelda and Sheik. Likewise, I will not make any assumption on what Prai_Mai's or whatever it was called moveset would have been.

I shall either edit this post in a moment or make another quick reply once I delete my 64 records. It has the least impact but seeing as how Luigi was a clone, Puff a semiclone and Ness shared certain aspects with Mario while Falcon and Samus also shared aspects, it could follow the example put forth by Melee and Sm4sh or could follow more closely to Brawl. Plus, it'd just be nice to do all 4 games since I've already done the latter 3.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

In the pre-Smash4 days, when I said that Jiglypuff could be cutted, a lot of people laugh and said I was stupid because she's part of "The Sacred 12'.

While I don't think she will be cutted this time around, it's fun to see that it was never that sacred.
I also think Lucario can be out this time but "Nooo, he have a unique mechanic".
A stupid mechanic that every single character kind of has by default now. Lucario is popular so maybe they make him DLC and start with Mewtwo this time around.

This is more than likely a port-turned-sequel. I'm really hoping and genuinely think we won't get cuts.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Just deleted my Brawl VS records so here's the same deal for this game:

Spoiler

This is actually the one game so far in favour of clones not being a low priority if we just look at the records. As usual, most of the original 12 was put first, this time only Puff wasn't. Falco and Ganon are actually put before the newcomers despite being clones and the likes of Marth, G&W and Puff were actually put near the end despite 2 of them being unique and one being a semi clone. We know Sonic was put in very late into Brawl and I've already said my piece on Wolf sharing certain aspects from others and then Puff is a semi clone while Toon Link is a clone, semi or otherwise.

However, we also know that the likes of Dr. Mario, Roy and Mewtwo were planned for Brawl but didn't get in. 2 of those characters are clones. I would also mention Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik but seeing as how they've never been in Smash altogether, I'm not going to make the immediate assumption that they would be clones or semi clones of Zelda and Sheik. Likewise, I will not make any assumption on what Prai_Mai's or whatever it was called moveset would have been.

I shall either edit this post in a moment or make another quick reply once I delete my 64 records. It has the least impact but seeing as how Luigi was a clone, Puff a semiclone and Ness shared certain aspects with Mario while Falcon and Samus also shared aspects, it could follow the example put forth by Melee and Sm4sh or could follow more closely to Brawl. Plus, it'd just be nice to do all 4 games since I've already done the latter 3.

Interesting. Given Jigglypuff's placement on the VS record in Smash 4 vs Brawl, is it fair to say that it seems likely she wasn't as low priority or at risk of being cut relative to her situation in Brawl?

 

[NintenZ]

I feel like Jigglypuff is at least at risk due to her not being identified in the trailer unlike most of the other original 12 (Also on another note BOTW Zelda was finally identified so good for her!)

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

See, here’s the thing...no one can really prove anything either way because we know next to nothing about this game. It’s so early into talking about this game that there’s no identifiable way to say, “it’s fake” or “it’s real”.

For all we know, Mario may be brighter to match Odyssey. Spring Man might jump high and be a decent aerial fighter with stretchy attacks (long range), but could also be an “early build” with particular details missing or looking janky.

Decidueye, while having certain details kinda...hidden by his idle stance, several other character have front facing idle stances. DK, Diddy, ROB, Duck Hunt, Pikachu, etc...

I can’t say why a leaker would only show a little bit, and I can’t really say why they picked characters they picked. However, them being safe picks doesn’t really matter, because that doesn’t prove or disprove anything.

What I think would give this enormous credibility is footage of combat from Inklings or Breath of the Wild Link, with UI footage. That is far harder to fake.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I feel like Jigglypuff is at least at risk due to her not being identified in the trailer unlike most of the other original 12 (Also on another note BOTW Zelda was finally identified so good for her!)

She could get cut, but I wouldn't use that reason seeing as Luigi wasn't shown. I think there is a good chance they could both be unlockable characters similar to how they were in Melee.

 

[Logo12]

Lol, my shift last night was so lax that I was able to catch all the way up to page 831. Got a few things to reply to:

Spoiler

Is this not the order the cast was most likely prioritized in? The beginning of the list has 10 of the original 12, namely the original 8 and go figure, one of the 2 missing from the beginning is Puff who we know was low priority in Brawl. After that, it's all vets from Melee and then Brawl. Then it's 1st party newcomers and I believe it's even in the order they were announced and after Shulk it's the third parties with veteran Sonic being the first one. Bit scrambled after that though with the Miis and then oddly Ness and Puff then Falco, Ganon, G&W, Wario, R.O.B., Duck Hunt and Jr. It's scrambled but goes in order of character from 64 then Melee then Brawl then newcomers again and we know Jr almost didn't make it. Then it's the clones who we know were added at the very end and lastly it's the DLC characters in the order they were released in.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_unlockables_(SSB4-3DS)#Unlockable_characters

It's the unlockables in entry order.

Thirdly, around the area where I'm currently catching up, there was a mention of whether Puff is still a semi clone of Kirby or not. Puff still shares the same jab (Kirby's jab 1 and 2 are basically the same but of course he has a rapid jab finisher while Puff doesn't), ftilt, utilt, dtilt, grab, dash grab, pivot grab, bthrow, pummel, fsmash, dair, ledge attack, trip attack, get up attack, shield, rolls, spot dodge, battering item jab and fsmash (but not ftilt and dash attack), hammer swinging (item), gun firing, certain item tosses (it's hard to tell with some of them), walk (all speeds), multiple jumps, dizzyness (different expressions though and Puff of course has the whole flying to the moon after a shield break), sleeping and if you wanna get technical then dsmash (they both spin before kicking to both sides at the same time but Puff spins while charging while Kirby spins after the charge, if any). I honestly put more effort looking into this than I needed to but I'd say Puff is at least as much of a semi clone of Kirby as Lucas is of Ness, possibly even more since the pink marshmallows share more attack animations than the PK Kids do.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/User_talk:Toomai/Cloneosity

Yeah this was compared 3 times in this talk page on moveset comparison, and Jiggs and Kirby do share 33% of the moves.

But strictly speaking (if we're using Toomai's method) they are less of a clone than the PK kids, who share around 45% of the moves. Toomai draws the line at 40%, which makes Jiggs/Kirby not clone, Fox/Wolf not clone, but Lucas/Ness semiclones.

The reason they are similar at all is because they're both from Smash64, where movesets are largely made-up without focus on uniqueness. Basically characters have similar body shape (Mario-Luigi-Ness, DK, CF-Samus, Kirby-Jigglypuff, Fox, Yoshi, Link, Pikachu) will have similar normal attacks, though the distinction is more prominent with getup attacks.

Why do I know this? ...Let's just say i have a lot of fun the past week...

Also yeah I'm just naturally obsessed with cloneosity, considering who my most wanted is.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Second is something I noticed within Sm4sh itself and wanted to see what others thought. If you go to your fighter records in Sm4sh and you go to a record where no character has any data, then the characters are put into a particular order. I'll show the order in a spoiler

Spoiler

Is this not the order the cast was most likely prioritized in? The beginning of the list has 10 of the original 12, namely the original 8 and go figure, one of the 2 missing from the beginning is Puff who we know was low priority in Brawl. After that, it's all vets from Melee and then Brawl. Then it's 1st party newcomers and I believe it's even in the order they were announced and after Shulk it's the third parties with veteran Sonic being the first one. Bit scrambled after that though with the Miis and then oddly Ness and Puff then Falco, Ganon, G&W, Wario, R.O.B., Duck Hunt and Jr. It's scrambled but goes in order of character from 64 then Melee then Brawl then newcomers again and we know Jr almost didn't make it. Then it's the clones who we know were added at the very end and lastly it's the DLC characters in the order they were released in.

...Has nobody else mentioned the fact that the characters after the Mii Fighters are supposed to be the unlockable characters? Ness, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Bowser Jr. were starter characters on the Wii U, but they were secret on the 3DS. Regardless, Ness through Pittoo is all of the secret characters, not characters who weren't a priority. Why would Wario and Ganondorf, for example, of all characters be considered low priority?

Edit: Looks like I was beat to it, but the point still stands.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I feel like Jigglypuff is at least at risk due to her not being identified in the trailer unlike most of the other original 12 (Also on another note BOTW Zelda was finally identified so good for her!)

How was she identified??? I'd love to see!

 

[NintenZ]

How was she identified??? I'd love to see!

Here was the video that clearly makes her out: https://youtu.be/6YetnlQILPA

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

How was she identified??? I'd love to see!

They check the thighs and concluded that they were thick.

 

[Krysco]

Just deleted my 64 records so for the last time, here's the order:

Spoiler

The 4 unlockable characters are at the end and given what I said before about how Luigi was a clone, Puff a semi clone and Ness and Falcon borrowed certain aspects from other characters, I think it's safe to say that clones or really any character that borrows aspects from another is usually saved for the end as it's far easier to ctrl+c -> ctrl+v some aspects than it is to make brand new ones. Because of this, these characters tend to run the biggest risk of being cut since if the dev team runs into time constraints, they are already at the end of the priority list and may miss out so the game can meet a deadline.

There is of course outliers seeing as how Falco and Ganondorf seemed to have been added in before the likes of Marth and G&W in Brawl and as True Blue Warrior mentioned, Toon Link got into Sm4sh yet the likes of Squirtle and Ivysaur didn't. Snake wasn't a clone but due to being third party, he likely ran into other issues.

And since I've now tagged you Blue, to answer your question, yes. I do believe Puff was considered a higher priority for Sm4sh than she was for Brawl. To be specific, if Sm4sh had to suffer losing any of its initial 51 characters Dark Pit, Lucina, Dr. Mario, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, R.O.B., Wario, G&W, Ganon and Falco would have been cut before Puff would have. That's purely speculation and hypothetical of course but all of those characters came after Puff in the records.

Logo12 nice. I wonder then if that means unlockable characters are always prioritized at the end? This is of course entirely assuming my theory is correct that the order the characters appear in on blank records is the order they were prioritized in. Also interesting tidbit there about how much of a 'clone' certain characters are. I didn't actually bother to relook at Lucas' moves compared to Ness' since I already did that before in a post that probably got ignored and off the top of my head, I recall far fewer moves looking similar between Ness and Lucas than Puff and Kirby.

92MilesPrower again, nice catch. Didn't notice it since I can't be bothered to remember the very few unlockables the 3DS version had, especially since it seemed very random like Ness being unlockable again yet Falcon not and Wario being unlockable. 64 is similar and I believe Melee as well. Kinda odd that Brawl doesn't follow that pattern entirely since Falco and Ganondorf come before Pokemon Trainer despite the former 2 being unlockable and the latter being unlocked off the bat.

Aaaand actually True Blue Warrior, now that I've been told this, I can't actually guarantee how prioritized Puff was for Sm4sh @.@

 

[92MilesPrower]

For all we know, the silhouettes are likely just of characters that will be on the starting roster of the game, but I'm not too sure with Ness likely being among the silhouettes, seeing as how he was locked in 3DS along with Jigglypuff, and both were starters in Wii U. It could be a Melee kind of situation though, but who really knows. Heck, Luigi was a starter, while Wario was locked in Smash 4 for no clear reason.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

At the very least, we know Bowser Jr. was on the brink of being cut so theoretically, besides the 3 clones, he must have been the last character added to Smash 4.

 

[GatGoat]

All i ask is they take koopa kid out that damn clown cart, i was severely offended he wasnt a seudo bowser clone able to use his paintbrush for combos

 

[ErenJager]

I've said it's real since I first saw it.

Only because I personally don't find Springman, Decidueye, and Cappy to be exciting.
Borderline disappointing, so things like these usually amount to being real.

I bet Nintendo/ Sakurai leaked this themselves/ himself.
Viral marketing to maintain the hype a month after the announcement.
These will probably be the next newcomers shown in a direct or at E3.

I want to believe.

 

[Jubileus57]

All i ask is they take koopa kid out that damn clown cart, i was severely offended he wasnt a seudo bowser clone able to use his paintbrush for combos

So let's get rid of an unique, wacky and interesting character to make him into a clone. I'm not sure many would be pleased.

And boy would they be right not to be.

Still it's a matter of tastes, But wow. I'm not in the same boat.

 

[92MilesPrower]

At the very least, we know Bowser Jr. was on the brink of being cut so theoretically, besides the 3 clones, he must have been the last character added.

Was there a Sakurai interview or something where he states that Junior was going to be cut potentially? I don't recall anything like that, unless I've really been out of the loop with things like this. I do feel that he likely isn't going to get cut in favor of other characters, because of the importance of him and the Koopalings to the Mario franchise, and the hugely unique moveset that he has, which I doubt Sakurai would say that he wasted time and effort making. Plus, he was made a starter character for Wii U over other secret characters, which was somewhat strange to me.

 

[Cosmic77]

Here was the video that clearly makes her out: https://youtu.be/6YetnlQILPA

I'm not so sure it's a perfect match.

For now, I'm just going to assume the only confirmed characters are Mario, Link, Inklings, and those with silhouettes so obvious that it couldn't possibly be anyone else (DK, Bowser, and Samus).

They check the thighs and concluded that they were thick.

Ironically, the character with the thickest thighs isn't even a woman.

Spoiler

The sad part is that I'm not even exaggerating.

 

[Logo12]

I wonder then if that means unlockable characters are always prioritized at the end? This is of course entirely assuming my theory is correct that the order the characters appear in on blank records is the order they were prioritized in. Also interesting tidbit there about how much of a 'clone' certain characters are. I didn't actually bother to relook at Lucas' moves compared to Ness' since I already did that before in a post that probably got ignored and off the top of my head, I recall far fewer moves looking similar between Ness and Lucas than Puff and Kirby.

From your data (and after checking 64 and Melee myself), that pattern seems to break with Brawl. There are 4 outliers, namely Pokemon Trainer (which is starter), Luigi, CF and Ness (which are unlockable). I checked other stuff like "Subspace appearance order" as well, considering the last 4 characters, but that falls apart as soon as the olimar->lucas part. There are also no particular reason why Marth and GW is at the near-last, unless it's some development order shenanigans (but given Marth's role in SSE, would it be?)

So, there isn't really much pattern to see here, unless we now theorize that Smash 4's unlockables are all late-development additions, and Marth+GW in brawl are mid-development additions.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Here was the video that clearly makes her out: https://youtu.be/6YetnlQILPA

She seems awfully tall, almost as tall as Bowser and same height as Samus. I mean, she's obviously going to get a BOTW redesign anyway. I don't know who that would be instead, saw one video suggest Captain Falcon but I don't think so...

 

[Curious Villager]

Was there a Sakurai interview or something where he states that Junior was going to be cut potentially? I don't recall anything like that, unless I've really been out of the loop with things like this. I do feel that he likely isn't going to get cut in favor of other characters, because of the importance of him and the Koopalings to the Mario franchise, and the hugely unique moveset that he has, which I doubt Sakurai would say that he wasted time and effort making. Plus, he was made a starter character for Wii U over other secret characters, which was somewhat strange to me.

I believe he stated in an interview that he had more characters that he wanted to include into the base roster of Smash 4 but couldn't due to time constraints (Basically, the same deal as the "Forbidded Seven" of Brawl) and that Bowser jr was almost going to be one of them too due to some difficulties they had on implementing him into the game. Or something along those lines.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

She seems awfully tall, almost as tall as Bowser and same height as Samus. I mean, she's obviously going to get a BOTW redesign anyway. I don't know who that would be instead, saw one video suggest Captain Falcon but I don't think so...

Looks more like palutena to me

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Was there a Sakurai interview or something where he states that Junior was going to be cut potentially? I don't recall anything like that, unless I've really been out of the loop with things like this. I do feel that he likely isn't going to get cut in favor of other characters, because of the importance of him and the Koopalings to the Mario franchise, and the hugely unique moveset that he has, which I doubt Sakurai would say that he wasted time and effort making. Plus, he was made a starter character for Wii U over other secret characters, which was somewhat strange to me.

Here's the interview.

 

[MysticKnives]

I feel like Jigglypuff is at least at risk due to her not being identified in the trailer unlike most of the other original 12 (Also on another note BOTW Zelda was finally identified so good for her!)

Eh, that isn't much of a good argument since going off the trailer alone, I guess Luigi is in danger of being cut too. Obviously he ain't getting cut, but the trailer thing as a means for Puff being at risk to get cut I feel isn't really strong of an argument.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Eh, that isn't much of a good argument since going off the trailer alone, I guess Luigi is in danger of being cut too. Obviously he ain't getting cut, but the trailer thing as a means for Puff being at risk to get cut I feel isn't really strong of an argument.

Watch as Jigglypuff ends up being the next character revealed!

 

[Staarih]

Here was the video that clearly makes her out: https://youtu.be/6YetnlQILPA

I... guess? It could still be anything really.

Got me thinking; I’d kinda like to see a ”continuation” of that initial teaser trailer for Smash, revealing all these shadowy veterans and maybe showing a newcomer or two, giving us a decent character selection for the tournament at E3.

 

[Polan]

I'm pretty confident that all the veterans in the shadows are going to be playable at E3.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Even after 20 hours, @Fuzzy Pickles! 's video has still not been taken down. Not surprised.

 

[vaanrose]

Here was the video that clearly makes her out: https://youtu.be/6YetnlQILPA

Only villains make twelve minute videos for things that should be single images posted on Twitter.

 

[MysticKnives]

Watch as Jigglypuff ends up being the next character revealed!

I legit could see Puff not announced or revealed at all until the game comes out tbh. I just think the trailer as a reason is fairly weak. I'd love to have the Puff revealed though.

 

[GatGoat]

k

So let's get rid of an unique, wacky and interesting character to make him into a clone. I'm not sure many would be pleased.

And boy would they be right not to be.

Still it's a matter of tastes, But wow. I'm not in the same boat.

koopa kid is my favorite nintendo bad guy , what they did to him just seemed corny as hell imo

 

[Krysco]

One last thing I'll mention before I get some sleep for my shift tonight, there is one consistent pattern with the character order in the records, the exact order of the original 8. In every game it's Mario, DK, Link, Samus, Yoshi, Kirby, Fox, Pika.

Luigi, Falcon, Ness and Puff end up all over the place with the only 'consistent' thing about any of those 4 is that Puff is never grouped with the others but then at the same time, I'm pretty sure she's the only one of the original 12 to have always been an unlockable character (not counting the Wii U version if she isn't unlockable there). IF my theory is at all correct then that supports the whole 'original 8 won't be cut' idea and only to a lesser extent the same thing for the remaining 4 that make the original 12. Only other consistency seems to be newcomer clones/semi clones and characters that were added late being at the end but then they're also always unlockable so it COULD just be that. Anyways, I'll post again to reply or when I've read enough from catching up to make another big post that'll get ignored

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The Original 8 are also ordered by the years they made their video game debut in.

 

[vaanrose]

I think it's a false equivalence to suggest that low priority = high chance of being cut. Sakurai has always seen to it that Jigglypuff gets brought back, every time.

 

[92MilesPrower]

After reading the article, it's interesting that Junior was somewhat of an afterthought compared to characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, who I would've guessed to be last minute additions that barely made the cut rather than Junior. Knowing Sakurai, though, Pittoo was probably considered for the game early on because of bias.

 

[MrReyes96]

After reading the article, it's interesting that Junior was somewhat of an afterthought compared to characters like Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, who I would've guessed to be last minute additions that barely made the cut rather than Junior. Knowing Sakurai, though, Pittoo was probably considered for the game early on because of bias.

He never showed bias for Kirby, not adding Meta Knight or DeDeDe before Brawl, and Dark Pit is the most similar clone character so he didn't take much effort to put in the game, not sure why people like knocking his inclusion though I do hope he'll be decloned. If Sakurai was biased he would've added palutena AND viridi/medusa/hades with a completely new moveset. (which I would've loved)

 

[Opossum]

k

koopa kid is my favorite nintendo bad guy , what they did to him just seemed corny as hell imo

Bowser Jr. isn't Koopa Kid. Koopa Kid only appeared in mid-2000s Mario Party games.

 

[92MilesPrower]

He never showed bias for Kirby, not adding Meta Knight or DeDeDe before Brawl, and Dark Pit is the most similar clone character so he didn't take much effort to put in the game, not sure why people like knocking his inclusion though I do hope he'll be decloned. If Sakurai was biased he would've added palutena AND viridi/medusa/hades with a completely new moveset. (which I would've loved)

You clearly need to look at Subspace Emissary again, because there's TONS of bias for Kirby in there, if you think adding Dedede and Meta Knight wasn't bias. For example, the only recognizable locations from Nintendo franchises that you visit are Dedede's Castle and the Halberd. Everywhere else is just generic places (Abandoned Zoo might be an exception). Also, Kirby and co. were responsible for a lot of the events in SSE: For example, Dedede apparently distracted Meta Knight unintentionally while the Halberd was being hijacked (offscreen event that's mentioned on the Dojo), Dedede created the timer badges that revived Luigi and Ness (and Kirby accidentally) and saved half of the fighters in Subspace 1, Kirby destroyed the giant gunship with the Dragoon, Meta Knight saved PT and Lucas from Galleom's bomb, etc.

I could go on, but I'd rather not, and I think my point is very clear about the Kirby bias in SSE.

 

[Chandeelure]

I think the leak is fake because I do not see a single sign of Bandana Dee in it.

Bowser Jr. isn't Koopa Kid. Koopa Kid only appeared in mid-2000s Mario Party games.

That character was so damn weird and ugly, literally a ****** Bowser with gorilla arms.