Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Gagnetar]

Slippy and Krystal are both controversial. Just as it may surprise you that Slippy has real fans, it may be a surprise to others that some (non-furries) love Krystal.

Something something glass houses and stones.

People haven't realistically considered slippy until very recently and his popularity has always been low, comparing Slippy to Krystal is unrealistic despite the fact that Krystal is a well-hated character for reasons I never came to know as she's had a strong request for Smash and her own success in the furry community.

Except for the fact that Krystal has been gone for years despite the series continuing. At least a character like K Rool, despite being gone for years, has a sizable audience. Krystal is more of a holdout.

On Slippy, I don't think he has a great shot, but I'd give it a maybe given that he can have a unique move set and he's been around for a while. Most of the hate for him has died off. Krystal's issue is she's not appearing in games.

The series hasn't continued, remaking starfox 64 twice isn't a continuation, though her not appearing does hinder her for sure. If they are interested in a sequel, which Q-Games is infact interested in doing she'll be in it.

 

[SmashChu]

The series hasn't continued, remaking starfox 64 twice isn't a continuation, though her not appearing does hinder her for sure. If they are interested in a sequel, which Q-Games is infact interested in doing she'll be in it.

StarFox Zero is a retelling, not a remake. The game introduces enough new features. StarFox will continue. Miyamoto has made it clear, but the iconic characters of the series are Fox, Falco, Slippy and Peppy. It seems clear Nintendo wants to still with the classic 4 rather than make anything after Adventures. Additionally, most new ideas come from StarFox 2, so if there are new characters, it would likely be the cut ones rather than bringing back Krystal. Regardless, the prospect of maybe being in a new game doesn't mean you should be in Smash.

 

[Gagnetar]

StarFox Zero is a retelling, not a remake. The game introduces enough new features. StarFox will continue. Miyamoto has made it clear, but the iconic characters of the series are Fox, Falco, Slippy and Peppy. It seems clear Nintendo wants to still with the classic 4 rather than make anything after Adventures. Additionally, most new ideas come from StarFox 2, so if there are new characters, it would likely be the cut ones rather than bringing back Krystal. Regardless, the prospect of maybe being in a new game doesn't mean you should be in Smash.

Enough new features? unliked controls, a slightly alterred plotline and some fancy vehicles doesn't sound like enough to me. It's hardly enough content to warrant the buzzword they used to make people like it, just like Federation Force's designer wanted people to treat the game as a true metroid title and belongs in the universe, which it doesn't. Both of them didn't sell well either. Also if she actually IS in a new game it can definitely warrant being in a new smash, Just like how Roy was released in Smash before his game and how Corrin came to Smash to line up with Fates. All Zero does is further emphasize that Miyamoto is stuck in the past and "retelling" the original will not work anymore. Additionally yes indeed most of the ideas are dragged out of Starfox 2, meaning that we could see Miyu and Fay this time, That doesn't expressly exclude Krystal, or Panther for that matter either. Cuthbert and Imamura stated that if they were to pick up the series after Command, which is considered the end of the series it would be in the middle of Command somewhere, meaning Krystal would be there.

 

[Bowserlick]

Andross is the next iconic character in Star Fox. A giant head with huge hands. People remember the final boss for being so deliciously sci/fi odd.

Andross (in body form) with oversized metallic jet-propelled gloves and access to futuristic technology, metallic block creation, and terra transformation into a giant monkey face and hands for crazy specials and/or smashes would allow him to represent Star Fox as the villain while still having references to his appearance as a planet sized ape head.

 

[Gagnetar]

Andross is the next iconic character in Star Fox. A giant head with huge hands. People remember the final boss for being so deliciously sci/fi odd.

Andross (in body form) with oversized metallic jet-propelled gloves and access to futuristic technology, metallic block creation, and terra transformation into a giant monkey face and hands for crazy specials and/or smashes would allow him to represent Star Fox as the villain while still having references to his appearance as a planet sized ape head.

Andross would be an unexpected but pretty interesting character pick, I think he's stuck in assist trophy hell but they gave Pac-man a second chance for some kind of retro appeal by using his bipedal form. And him being an assist trophy means there was some interest in him as fighter in some form atleast.

 

[Deleted member]

Also with Slippy surely you gest, He does have kit potential but does anyone REALLY like him?

I would too, honestly.
I used him in Assault and would play around with my nephews acting like some Russian soldier known as "The Slippy".

-raises hand-

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And him being an assist trophy means there was some interest in him as fighter in some form atleast.

Uh.

There are a lot of assist trophies that were never considered for a fighter.

Need I remind you, several of them simply cannot function as a character?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Uh.

There are a lot of assist trophies that were never considered for a fighter.

Need I remind you, several of them simply cannot function as a character?

Dammit. I wanted Pong as a character.

:V​

 

[Smokey21]

Dammit. I wanted Pong as a character.

:V​

In before pong announced at e3 for smash.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Dammit. I wanted Pong as a character.

:V​

But Sheriff blows your precious Pong out of the water.

At least he has more pixels.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But Sheriff blows your precious Pong out of the water.

At least he has more pixels.

Pong would be a tag team character though, it automatically makes it top tier.

:V​

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

If Sheriff were ever playable, he would need a rebooted 3D design to fit in with the rest of the cast. I never saw the appeal in using only the arcade sprites as to that would look too awkward in Smash.

If Bayonetta was free to use her guns, then what's stopping him from using his trademark revolvers?

 

[Deleted member]

If Bayonetta was free to use her guns, then what's stopping him from using his trademark revolvers?

Design.

Bayonetta's guns don't look like realistic firearms.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Design.

Bayonetta's guns don't look like realistic firearms.

I think it can be argued that they look pretty realistic, to be honest. They're basically customized pistols.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it can be argued that they look pretty realistic, to be honest. They're basically customized pistols.

Not really.
Key difference between a revolver and the Scarborough Fair/Love Is Blue set is that you can buy the former at any gun store and be able to use it and the latter you'd only have by paying someone your entire life-savings to make replicas of and are very unlikely to be able to actually use them as anything but decoration (typically, replicas aren't designed to actually fire anything).

 

[A Distant Demon]

Bayonetta's guns are basically real guns recolored and given some modifications. From a quick glance, no one would be able to tell they are even remotely different from a regular pistol if not for the color. Plus. . .they fire ballistic rounds (or at least something like that) with the shells being ejected even in smash.

 

[Deleted member]

-sigh-
You're missing the point.
There's a reason why Snake wasn't allowed firearms while Bayonetta was.

It has everything to do with the design of the guns in question.
Snake's were more realistic. More likely than not, you could pick up whatever he had or at least very close to it from a gun shop.

Bayonetta's are less realistic. Yes, the basic shape of the weapons fits some real-world counterparts, but you are unable to acquire anything like them (that are functional) and they're too stylized and fantastical to be "realistic". Christ, they're powered by magic! That's why they have unlimited ammunition and can be fired from her goddamn feet!

 

[A Distant Demon]

I don't feel like arguing the semantics of guns in a videogame at midnight but

they're powered by magic! That's why they have unlimited ammunition and can be fired from her goddamn feet!

This has nothing to do with anything

 

[Opossum]

-sigh-
You're missing the point.
There's a reason why Snake wasn't allowed firearms while Bayonetta was.

It has everything to do with the design of the guns in question.
Snake's were more realistic. More likely than not, you could pick up whatever he had or at least very close to it from a gun shop.

Bayonetta's are less realistic. Yes, the basic shape of the weapons fits some real-world counterparts, but you are unable to acquire anything like them (that are functional) and they're too stylized and fantastical to be "realistic". Christ, they're powered by magic! That's why they have unlimited ammunition and can be fired from her goddamn feet!

Sakurai has changed his mind in the past. Miis, Villager, and Pac-Man being on the roster at all is a testament to that. To assume Snake and Bayonetta were using the same guidelines for roster entrance is just as much speculation as anything else.

It could very well be that Snake's guns were removed due to Brawl being a more realistically styled game, and that if Bayonetta were discussed for being in Brawl, she wouldn't have made it for the same reasons Snake's guns didn't. Meanwhile because Smash 4 takes a less gritty, much more whimsical style, maybe Snake's guns would have been okay, since the game's over all presentation is far less realistic.

It's all speculation.

That, and from a distance (how Smash is played, mind you) Bayonetta's guns definitely seem realistic. If you have to pause the game and zoom all the way in to see how "stylized" and unrealistic they are, then for all intents and purposes they're fairly realistic. Her firing with her feet is more of a testament to Bayonetta herself than the realism of her guns anyway. Being able to buy them doesn't matter. During normal gameplay they very much resemble realistic guns.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

But my thing here is, what is forbidden about knives in Smash?

Is it for similar reasons of accessibility?

 

[Deleted member]

If you have to pause the game and zoom all the way in to see how "stylized" and unrealistic they are, then for all intents and purposes they're fairly realistic.

I'm arguing the opposite, actually. That you have to zoom in to see how "realistic" they are.



But whatever, clearly I'm blind and clearly I'm an idiot for not seeing that without a doubt any and all firearms are completely acceptable because based Bayonetta and not seeing that Sakurai clearly did a complete 180 degree turn from his stance on firearms that he reaffirmed in 2013 when the Ray Gun was revealed.

So I'll shut up on the subject now.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

"We design the Ray Gun carefully each time to ensure it doesn’t look like a real gun"

-Sakurai 11/26/13

Clearly Bayonetta wasn't added in the base roster because Sakurai didn't want realistic guns in the game at the time.

She clearly only got in as DLC because less than 2 years later Sakurai had a change of heart and was ok with realistic guns being in the game.

Seriously though, I sincerely doubt Sakurai's policy of not wanting realistic firearms in Smash has changed. I mostly agree with what Golden has said about it.

Her guns look about as realistic as Fox's gun in Melee.

 

[Bowserlick]

Bowser Jr. has a realistic cannon. I am not sure if that teaches children the right priorities.

 

[Arcadenik]

I... think I want Wild Gunman as a playable character... Duck Hunt Dog can still summon 8-bit Wild Gunmen... but the playable Wild Gunman is 3D like the dog and the duck.

That... or at least have the Wild Gunmen as Mii Gunner costumes.

 

[Schnee117]

Bowser Jr. has a realistic cannon. I am not sure if that teaches children the right priorities.

There's a huge difference between explosives/cannonballs and bullets.

Snake was allowed mines, C4, a Remote Control Rocket Launcher, a Mortar and an RPG in Brawl. No pistol/knife combo despite them better fitting his CQC fighting style.

 

[Luminario]

But my thing here is, what is forbidden about knives in Smash?

Is it for similar reasons of accessibility?

Yeah it's probably for that reason. Are there any characters that would actually use knives in Smash so far? The only one I can think of is Snake which would definitely be too real. Are there any potential newcomers besides someone like Anna that would actually use something like a knife anyway?

 

[_Sheik]

On another subject... Do you think Nintendo has become greedy enough to give Link additional costumes/skins in the next Smash (be it a port and/or a brand new game) and have them amiibo-locked like they are in Breath of the Wild?

..cuz hey, that's not cool man.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think Bayonetta is just an exception to the no guns rule. Yeah, Bayonetta's guns aren't one for one with an actual firearm but they are guns that fires bullets which if I recall was a big part of Snake not using firearms. They didn't want characters shooting each other with bullets for whatever reason. That's why the Ray Gun and Super Scope used lasers or pellets respectively. However, seeing as how Bayonetta has pretty much established herself in the Nintendo Pantheon and winning the ballot I think he made an exception and decided to appease the fans of the character who voted for her in the ballot instead of disrespecting the **** out of the character just for the sake of his own opinions.

I figure that Bayonetta is the exception and will continue to be the only exception. Bayonetta's guns are realistic enough to warrant that side of the discussions reasoning. However, Bayonetta being a DLC character that people voted for in a ballot makes her a special case. I doubt we'll see another character using a firearm, I really do. Does this totally dismiss their inclusion as a character? Not particularly, but it really is a damn shame that reason could be the only reason for a character not making it in. The knife thing in particular is straight up stupid. I wonder if the reason we haven't seen any axe or lance users in the game yet is because they're another one of those cases. Who knows, honestly?

 

[Luminario]

On another subject... Do you think Nintendo has become greedy enough to give Link additional costumes/skins in the next Smash (be it a port and/or a brand new game) and have them amiibo-locked like they are in Breath of the Wild?

..cuz hey, that's not cool man.

This salt though. God I hope they don't, I really don't want it to spread to other characters and then have to have to get 3 different versions of Zelda's amiibo just to unlock her alts.

Also a question for the mods, purely hypothetical, but is making a Hatsune Miku support thread off the table because she didn't originate in a video game? Again, purely hypothetical, I'd just like to know~

 

[Curious Villager]

I'm pretty sure amiibo (If they return, which they probably will) will just be used the same way as they did before. To "train" your character and all, not to unlock any amiibo exclusive content.

I wouldn't have minded some character alts for DLC though instead of just being restricted for the Mii fighters and all....

As for Bayonetta and her guns, I'm assuming that she was probably just an exception due to the whole ballot and all, as Sakurai still shared the same feelings in regards to gun weapons in Smash 4, It's pretty much why he went out of his way to change the Ray Gun's design as someone above just stated.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I think Bayonetta is just an exception to the no guns rule. Yeah, Bayonetta's guns aren't one for one with an actual firearm but they are guns that fires bullets which if I recall was a big part of Snake not using firearms. They didn't want characters shooting each other with bullets for whatever reason. That's why the Ray Gun and Super Scope used lasers or pellets respectively. However, seeing as how Bayonetta has pretty much established herself in the Nintendo Pantheon and winning the ballot I think he made an exception and decided to appease the fans of the character who voted for her in the ballot instead of disrespecting the **** out of the character just for the sake of his own opinions.

I figure that Bayonetta is the exception and will continue to be the only exception. Bayonetta's guns are realistic enough to warrant that side of the discussions reasoning. However, Bayonetta being a DLC character that people voted for in a ballot makes her a special case. I doubt we'll see another character using a firearm, I really do. Does this totally dismiss their inclusion as a character? Not particularly, but it really is a damn shame that reason could be the only reason for a character not making it in. The knife thing in particular is straight up stupid. I wonder if the reason we haven't seen any axe or lance users in the game yet is because they're another one of those cases. Who knows, honestly?

Well Villager can technically use his axe as a weapon.

I think it mainly has to do with the fact that knives (and guns) have much more of a negitive connotation to them then any other weapon.

Another smaller reason might be that knives are so easily accessible to kids. You're not going to find a lance in your kitchen drawer, maybe Sakurai doesn't want to encourage kids to swing a knife around like the character they were playing as.

Of course that wouldn't be the games fault, that would just be ****ty parenting, but it still might be something Sakurai worries about, I dunno. Same can be said about guns too, since a lot of families own guns.

 

[_Sheik]

I'm pretty sure amiibo (If they return, which they probably will) will just be used the same way as they did before. To "train" your character and all, not to unlock any amiibo exclusive content.

Gotta be wary though. Fire Emblem Fates had the amiibo unlock fan-favorite protagonists and so did Code Name S.T.E.A.M.; Breath of the Wild had the iconic green tunic locked behind the figures, on top of a Wolf Link sidekick and a Sheik mask; Splatoon and, seemingly, its sequel, have gear that can only be gotten thanks to scanning the figures. I could go on and on with more-or-less similar examples. Although all of that stuff is optional, it's... rather depressing on the long run.

I mean, the only compatible amiibo with Breath of the Wild that I own is OoT Link. As a huge Sheik nerd (see username), I would've liked to get her mask without buying her amiibo which I don't like the look of :/

 

[Curious Villager]

Gotta be wary though. Fire Emblem Fates had the amiibo unlock fan-favorite protagonists and so did Code Name S.T.E.A.M.; Breath of the Wild had the iconic green tunic locked behind the figures, on top of a Wolf Link sidekick and a Sheik mask; Splatoon and, seemingly, its sequel, have gear that can only be gotten thanks to scanning the figures. I could go on and on with more-or-less similar examples. Although all of that stuff is optional, it's... rather depressing on the long run.

I mean, the only compatible amiibo with Breath of the Wild that I own is OoT Link. As a huge Sheik nerd (see username), I would've liked to get her mask without buying her amiibo which I don't like the look of :/

Isn't the iconic green tunic obtainable in game? From what I know, you only get the tunic's worn by the respective Link's from the other Zelda games by scanning in an amiibo for that.

Most of those do seem like optional extra's that probably wouldn't have been included in the first place if it wasn't for the amiibo, although I guess I can understand how some people might be peeved with potential locked content. Perhaps giving the player the option to still unlock these extra's but by going through some more difficult hoops in order to obtain them might be a bit more fair for everyone though. I do agree with the type of locked content that was done for games like Splatoon though, which I hope Nintendo will avoid doing more of in the future....

 

[Megadoomer]

The only problem is that, if there's nothing meaningful to be gained by scanning the amiibo, then it makes the amiibo have no function. It seems like it would be hard to strike a balance between creating a reason for people to buy amiibo (or for people to have collections of them) and not annoying the people who don't have or can't access them.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Another smaller reason might be that knives are so easily accessible to kids. You're not going to find a lance in your kitchen drawer, maybe Sakurai doesn't want to encourage kids to swing a knife around like the character they were playing as.

And yet, the game has a ton of sword users. Knives close enough to a sword for a child's mind, right?

 

[Curious Villager]

The only problem is that, if there's nothing meaningful to be gained by scanning the amiibo, then it makes the amiibo have no function. It seems like it would be hard to strike a balance between creating a reason for people to buy amiibo (or for people to have collections of them) and not annoying the people who don't have or can't access them.

That's really the main issue with amiibo. You have the crowd that want them to have more use than just dropping some random items, and then there is the other crowd that is the complete opposite and don't want them to have any additional functionality and just be a collectors thing. Their two different sides so I'd imagine that it might a little difficult to strike a good compromise that pleases both sides and all.

I think Smash so far made the best use of it. Though I can imagine that its difficult to do something similar to that with most other games.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only problem is that, if there's nothing meaningful to be gained by scanning the amiibo, then it makes the amiibo have no function. It seems like it would be hard to strike a balance between creating a reason for people to buy amiibo (or for people to have collections of them) and not annoying the people who don't have or can't access them.

The way I see it, amiibo should be handled like DLC; bonus content and/or features that add to the gameplay, but isn't necessary to enjoy the full game.

In that sense, Smash did amiibo content better than any other game with the feature... Well, I guess there's Ultra Smash too, but that game sucks.

 

[SmashChu]

-sigh-
You're missing the point.
There's a reason why Snake wasn't allowed firearms while Bayonetta was.

It has everything to do with the design of the guns in question.
Snake's were more realistic. More likely than not, you could pick up whatever he had or at least very close to it from a gun shop.

Bayonetta's are less realistic. Yes, the basic shape of the weapons fits some real-world counterparts, but you are unable to acquire anything like them (that are functional) and they're too stylized and fantastical to be "realistic". Christ, they're powered by magic! That's why they have unlimited ammunition and can be fired from her goddamn feet!

Your reasoning is it looks different than other, I guess because it has a different color.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. No one is going to look at those guns and say "Well, they are clearly not guns. It's different." No, it's a freaking gun.

Your arguing semantics

 

[Deleted member]

Your reasoning is it looks different than other, I guess because it has a different color.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. No one is going to look at those guns and say "Well, they are clearly not guns. It's different." No, it's a freaking gun.

Your arguing semantics

And Shulk is confirmed to be a photoshopped Little Mac.
I've already dropped the subject. Don't try to drag me back with poor attempts at generalizing my argument, thank you.

 

[Arcadenik]

In that sense, Smash did amiibo content better than any other game with the feature

Of course. That's because amiibo was created for Smash.

IMO, amiibo should have ended with Smash... but Nintendo wanted to print money so we have many other amiibo even if they are shallowly implemented.