Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Don't expect Target Test to ever be like Melee again.
Or any other Stadium mode that is individualized for each character (such as the original game's Board the Platforms) to be added.


That's what happens when more and more characters are added to the series.

 

[Polan]

The last time modes got prioritized over characters, Mewtwo got cut. Let's not repeat that, shall we?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Plus, let's be honest here, who buys the game just for Target Test?

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't think they can do worse than Smash 4 though, where they straight up removed it

Well, it, sort of was still there as one of the Smash Run door minigames, but yeah, for the Wii U version, it was pretty much completely gone....

At this point, I'd probably rather they just expand on the stage builder and allowing us to make our own Target Smash stages and all. As Golden said, we're probably never going to return to individual Target Smash stages due to the rapidly increasing number of characters as the series progresses, making it probably more tedious for the dev's to think up and make more stages for that mode when they could probably spend that time on other things and all.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Smash Tour can just fly the coop.

Smash Run does need more work itself though, since you have no control over the CPU difficulty, along with which final event will be played.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Smash Tour was a horrible idea and, to top it all off, completionists HAVE to play the mode three times to get the worst stage...

It's as if Sakurai knew both of these things would suck.

 

[Megadoomer]

I'd say the worst part of Smash Tour was the challenges associated with it. For example, the one where you have to let a Metroid steal your stats, and then get those stats back. Thanks to RNG, the Metroid will almost always reappear near a different player, and then wander towards the other player, making it next to impossible to get that one without a Golden Hammer. (and it disappears after two turns, from what I recall, making it really tough to get to it in time)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Smash Tour was a horrible idea and, to top it all off, completionists HAVE to play the mode three times to get the worst stage...

It's as if Sakurai knew both of these things would suck.

At least the Omega form stage is far less of a hassle to fight on.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

At least the Omega form stage is far less of a hassle to fight on.

You can't wall jump on it despite it having walls.

That is just a horrible decision that they could've patched since they did the same thing with Omega Kalos.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You can't wall jump on it despite it having walls.

That is just a horrible decision that they could've patched since they did the same thing with Omega Kalos.

This is only really a problem for fighters who can wall jump. If the fighter can't wall jump, then that problem is irrelevant to him/her.

 

[Curious Villager]

The only thing I liked about Smash Tour was the mode at the very end when you play a match with different characters for every stock. I hope they make that it's own mode next time....

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

This is only really a problem for fighters who can wall jump. If the fighter can't wall jump, then that problem is irrelevant to him/her.

It's still a problem to the overall consistency of the game since every wall in the game can be wall jumped on but that one.

I don't care whether stages have walls or not, but they should stick to their design, and Omega Pac-Land's walls should grant the ability to wall jump since that's what walls do in Smash.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Only a select few characters are able to do that though.


On new modes, here's one idea somebody's had:

An Adventure Mode/RPG mode. I really wish Smash Wii U/3DS contained this, a mode where you ideally play as your Mii, and as you travel through the many kingdoms of Nintendo and gaming, you find new moves, costumes, stat upgrades, and level up as you battle through the roster of iconic characters in one grand adventure. Heck, all the mechanics for this to exist are already in place, even if they wanted to make sidescrolling maps like they did for subspace, they could just carry over plenty of the enemies used for Smash Run over for this mode. It'd be a treat.

I could do without any story too.

For starters:

"It’s storyline isn’t overwrought—it’s hastened along by a bunch of quick movies."

Yeah, okay.

 

[Delzethin]

It's still a problem to the overall consistency of the game since every wall in the game can be wall jumped on but that one.

I don't care whether stages have walls or not, but they should stick to their design, and Omega Pac-Land's walls should grant the ability to wall jump since that's what walls do in Smash.

Worth mentioning that Kalos League's walls used to be the same way...until version 1.14, which changed its walls to behave normally. So there's reason to believe they'd also fix Pac-Land's walls given enough time.

 

[Vintage Creep]

I'd say the worst part of Smash Tour was the challenges associated with it. For example, the one where you have to let a Metroid steal your stats, and then get those stats back. Thanks to RNG, the Metroid will almost always reappear near a different player, and then wander towards the other player, making it next to impossible to get that one without a Golden Hammer. (and it disappears after two turns, from what I recall, making it really tough to get to it in time)

I cheesed Smash Tour's challenges by playing with four controllers all alone. Hideous mode

 

[FunAtParties]

I would not mind if Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf were designed from the bottom up. Toon Link could keep his moveset and Link could be based on Breath of the Wild.

With Ganondorf, I agree. While he does have elements from his series, the character in Smash doesn't really do Ganondorf well. One of the few characters that I think a massive overhaul is due for.

Many like him though, so I'd settle for a separate Ganon character, but I'd honestly prefer just the one.


I always thought she was pretty underdeveloped in Smash, a lot of her attacks are just basic swipes/kicks with some magic sprinkled onto it. Her fair/bair is literally the same attack in two different directions made 'special' by adding a powerful magic blow at the tip.

Imo it's lazy.

I can see her character going in a lot of directions, but the safest thing to do would just be to further develop the summoner/mage thing she has going on. Just switch some of the low effort attacks with some new attacks that capture that sorceress thing well.

If they do go this route, I'd like to see her specials improved. Din's fire needs better movement, and shouldn't send Zelda into freefall, Farore's Wind shouldn't lock you out of DI for as long as it does. Phantom Slash should be developed further imo; I think it would work better as an actual minion, then a wall (a weak one at that). Nothing too much, maybe the Phantom just slowly walks forward and does a slow, but powerful attack, after which it disappears.


Honestly I don't want to see his kit changed at all. I like him how he is, and don't want to see significant changes to him to accommodate for one game's elements we may not see return in the future.

If anything, I'd like to see some tweaks. Bow goes pretty much nowhere by just tapping B, but if held long enough it could deliver a much more serious blow than it does now. Grappling Hook can tether to the sides of the stage again, and not just the ledge. Things like that.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Worth mentioning that Kalos League's walls used to be the same way...until version 1.14, which changed its walls to behave normally. So there's reason to believe they'd also fix Pac-Land's walls given enough time.

I actually said that.

You can't wall jump on it despite it having walls.

That is just a horrible decision that they could've patched since they did the same thing with Omega Kalos.

See?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I still think that Rosalina's air speed could've been better. Of course, the base knockback for some of the Luma's attacks would have to be weakened so that the knockback is not so strong at low damage percentages.

 

[Delzethin]

I actually said that.

See?

...Oh. Wow, not sure how I missed that. It's been a rough few days...

 

[SmashChu]

I could do without any story too.

For starters:



Yeah, okay.

Regardless of Subspace, I don't think a story mode is possible for Smash without the main characters being out of the events (i.e. the story revolves around other characters). Brawl did its story at the perfect time. The story only featured 31 characters plus Sonic. Smash 4 has 56 characters. Even cutting characters, the next game will get very close to 60 if not surpass it. A story that focuses on multiple characters the same way Brawl did won't work. An adventure mode with a simple story or having a story where the player character is helping NPCs is the only way I could see it work.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

An adventure mode with a simple story or having a story where the player character is helping NPCs is the only way I could see it work.

Or perhaps something like Melee?

 

[SmashChu]

Or perhaps something like Melee?

Was kind of implying that with the first one

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Was kind of implying that with the first one

Melee's Adventure mode didn't really have a story though. It was just a bunch of levels referencing Nintendo's franchises.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

*referencing Nintendo's franchises

And that alone is why it beats the SSE. I wouldn't mind a Melee style adventure with a plot, but make an it an excuse plot like'' Bad Guy is gonna do a bad thingie! Stop him!''

I'd like to see the return of a good Classic mode, and new Event Matches, and a Brawl-styled Break The Targets more though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

All that I know is that Melee's Adventure mode was quite repetitive, as you had to play it 25 times; once per fighter. The Subspace Emissary only has to be played once, but to get all the cutscenes, you do have to start a new game and take the routes that you did NOT choose in your first playthrough.

SSE Playthrough #1
1: Defeat Kirby.
2: Rescue Zelda from Petey Piranha.
3: Defeat Lucario.

SSE Playthrough #2
1: Defeat Mario.
2: Rescue Peach from Petey Piranha.
3: Defeat Meta Knight.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

All that I know is that Melee's Adventure mode was quite repetitive, as you had to play it 25 times; once per fighter. The Subspace Emissary only has to be played once, but to get all the cutscenes, you do have to start a new game and take the routes that you did NOT choose in your first playthrough.

SSE Playthrough #1
1: Defeat Kirby.
2: Rescue Zelda from Petey Piranha.
3: Defeat Lucario.

SSE Playthrough #2
1: Defeat Mario.
2: Rescue Peach from Petey Piranha.
3: Defeat Meta Knight.

I mean, I get your point, but the alternate cutscenes aren't anywhere near different enough to warrant playing the long mode again. You're also railroaded into what character the mode gives you (Until the VERY, VERY, end) at least in Melee's adventure lets you play with whoever you want (and you don't HAVE to beat it with everyone, just once to get Luigi, anything else you're bringing upon yourself just to get 100%)

 

[UserKev]

All that I know is that Melee's Adventure mode was quite repetitive, as you had to play it 25 times; once per fighter.

Nah.

Melee's Adventure Mode was brilliant. It accomplished what it was trying to do. I personally never got bored of it.

 

[N3ON]

I miss the cutscenes from Brawl's adventure mode. They were great. That's about it though...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

All that I know is that Melee's Adventure mode was quite repetitive, as you had to play it 25 times; once per fighter. The Subspace Emissary only has to be played once, but to get all the cutscenes, you do have to start a new game and take the routes that you did NOT choose in your first playthrough.

SSE Playthrough #1
1: Defeat Kirby.
2: Rescue Zelda from Petey Piranha.
3: Defeat Lucario.

SSE Playthrough #2
1: Defeat Mario.
2: Rescue Peach from Petey Piranha.
3: Defeat Meta Knight.

Melee's adventure mode was a lot shorter whereas SSE drags on
Especially as The Great Maze is the whole game all over again

 

[Curious Villager]

Being fair, I kind of agree with Mario & Sonic Guy not only will a Melee styled adventure mode be more repetitive due to more characters, but it will also be a lot longer due to the additional new franchises that have come along since then that will also need to be included into it. So add on to that and I can see it getting very tedious really quickly if you wish to complete it.

If they want to do another Melee styled adventure mode, I'd suggest mixing it up with Smash 3DS's classic mode, in fact, that was kind of how I envisioned a new Melee styled adventure mode to work in the first place. Have different path's you can take as you progress and visit different franchises that way with each playthrough.

This will make every playthrough feel more fresh and unique and less tedious to go through if you wish to complete it 100% since you're not made to go through every franchise represented in a certain order over and over again. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Being fair, I kind of agree with Mario & Sonic Guy not only will a Melee styled adventure mode be more repetitive due to more characters, but it will also be a lot longer due to the additional new franchises that have come along since then that will also need to be included into it. So add on to that and I can see it getting very tedious really quickly if you wish to complete it.

If they want to do another Melee styled adventure mode, I'd suggest mixing it up with Smash 3DS's classic mode, in fact, that was kind of how I envisioned a new Melee styled adventure mode to work in the first place. Have different path's you can take as you progress and visit different franchises that way with each playthrough.

This will make every playthrough feel more fresh and unique and less tedious to go through if you wish to complete it 100% since you're not made to go through every franchise represented in a certain order over and over again. That's just my opinion though.

Agreed 100%. At least Smash 3DS's Classic mode had the decency to mix up whoever you'll face next. In fact, All-Star mode needs to feel more random again (much like how Melee handled it), as it does get quite repetitive whenever you always fight fighters in the exact same order.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Being fair, I kind of agree with Mario & Sonic Guy not only will a Melee styled adventure mode be more repetitive due to more characters, but it will also be a lot longer due to the additional new franchises that have come along since then that will also need to be included into it. So add on to that and I can see it getting very tedious really quickly if you wish to complete it.

If they want to do another Melee styled adventure mode, I'd suggest mixing it up with Smash 3DS's classic mode, in fact, that was kind of how I envisioned a new Melee styled adventure mode to work in the first place. Have different path's you can take as you progress and visit different franchises that way with each playthrough.

This will make every playthrough feel more fresh and unique and less tedious to go through if you wish to complete it 100% since you're not made to go through every franchise represented in a certain order over and over again. That's just my opinion though.

I love this idea, honestly.

Choosing your own path in general gives anything replay value and that could remove the tediousness of it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I mean, I get your point, but the alternate cutscenes aren't anywhere near different enough to warrant playing the long mode again. You're also railroaded into what character the mode gives you (Until the VERY, VERY, end) at least in Melee's adventure lets you play with whoever you want (and you don't HAVE to beat it with everyone, just once to get Luigi, anything else you're bringing upon yourself just to get 100%)

Technically, if you want all the trophies, you have to complete Melee's Adventure mode with everyone. You also have to acquire all the Adventure mode bonuses, defeat Giga Bowser (for the Giga Bowser trophy), and do a hard difficulty playthrough without using a continue (for the Crazy Hand trophy).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Technically, if you want all the trophies, you have to complete Melee's Adventure mode with everyone. You also have to acquire all the Adventure mode bonuses, defeat Giga Bowser (for the Giga Bowser trophy), and do a hard difficulty playthrough without using a continue (for the Crazy Hand trophy).

And there's going to be challenges with those very conditions no matter what happens to Adventure mode in the next game... assuming it comes back, that is.

And it's going to get tedious to do it about 60 times, even with CV's branching paths idea.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It should also be noted that the Subspace Emissary did not have any difficulty challenges, so you could do a full playthrough on the easiest difficulty, and still complete all of Brawl's challenges; completing all of the Subspace Emissary stages on Intense difficulty was completely optional, though your odds of acquiring Trophy Stands do increase if you do buff up the difficulty.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I thought Subspace Emissary was horrible.

Apart from the meandering plot that didn't make any sense and went absolutely nowhere, the gameplay was just unbelievably boring and poorly made. Platforming gameplay in a game that isn't meant to be a platformer is not what I call a good time, nor is dealing with stupid damage sponge enemies and bosses that are totally uninteresting to fight and bounce you around everywhere with their giant hitbox.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

the gameplay was just unbelievably boring and poorly made.

That's Brawl in general, not just the SSE

Platforming gameplay in a game that isn't meant to be a platformer is not what I call a good time

Smash is a platform fighting game, so it actually is a platformer in a way. With that said, I think the concept of SSE works, but the execution didn't.

In my opinion, they could've made things a lot more enjoyable if they didn't make it a beat 'em up kind of thing 95% of the time.

nor is dealing with stupid damage sponge enemies and bosses that are totally uninteresting to fight and bounce you around everywhere with their giant hitbox.

I can't counter that. It's too true.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Main number one issue with the SSE: It tries to tell a complex story involving give or take 31 people, WITH NO DIALOGUE!

It's next to impossible to follow a story where no one speaks, unless it's like a 1900's comedy or something, but something like the SSE? Imagine the Harry Potters films completely silent, no subtitles.

Without the help of the Dojo, you'd never be able to figure how and why Snake got on the Halberd, or what was going on with Mr. G&W, or what Tabuu was, etc etc.. That's why people don't get the story. It is the WORST told story I've ever seen. That is, worst presented story.

Also, some plot points don't get properly followed up on, like the lack of a Ness/Lucas reunion scene, no explanation to a certain blue guy coming up so damn late or where he was to start, or three characters not showing up at all..

The GAMEPLAY was fine to me, but it's let down by the multitude of generic enemies and boring locale. Extra annoying considering the first few bosses including Petey/Porky/Rayquaza, and then the game throwing it out the window and adding crap like Duon. Correct me if i'm wrong, but only 5 bosses in the mode are Nintendo related (The before mentioned 3, and Ridley and Meta Ridley)

My opinion: There's some good, like the many collectibles are fun to look for, but there's many fatal flaws. I don't think it's the worst thing to ever happen, but I do think it was poorly executed. I don't want to see it back, it would be even more a headache with a bigger roster, and the lack of a new Dojo.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'd love to get another adventure mode, whether it be like Melee's or SSE, but if it ends up like SSE I hope they improve it dramatically.

I enjoyed Melee's Adventure mode more, because it's a relatively quick and unique experience. The variety of the stages, and the little easter eggs made me want to replay it, and the fact it doesn't take all day to play through it allowed me to actually do it. SSE was a long, drawn out nightmare to play through, and it relied on a poorly written story to cover up it's flaws. It had potential, but it did not execute at all.

If they go this route again, I'd like to see the story have the same end with multiple beginnings. This way, each character can play a part in the overall story in a non-linear, non-committal type of way without the overall progress relying on a certain section's completion to experience it.

I'd like for the stages to be fast, and unique like the were in Melee with maybe a couple special boss battles like Brawl had.

 

[Opossum]

Great Maze aside, I had fun with the SSE. I know it probably won't ever happen again due to the amount of work needed, but hypothetically, this would be my ideal Adventure/Story Mode, assuming no time or budget constraints.

- No more pantomiming. At the very least, have dialogue boxes/subtitles. Way too much information that was crucial to understanding the Subspace Emissary's story was All There in the Manual.
- Having some original enemies is fine. Some of the SSE's were pretty neat, like Poppant, Gamyga, and Roturret, while Primid made a good generic fodder enemy. That being said, there was no reason to use Feyesh when Monoeye exists, nor Bombed when Bob-Ombs and Poppy Bros could be used. And Glire/Glyce/Glunder just suck seriously **** them. Ideally original enemies would be intermixed with and outnumbered by actual Nintendo enemies. In addition to the enemy R.O.B.s and Mario goons, throw in some Octoroks and Metroids, and throw in some enemies from series without them, like Risen or Terrors for Fire Emblem, or Shadaloo goons for Street Fighter. I want Smash Run's enemy variety.
- Use actual Nintendo locales. Even if they want to go through with the whole "not the real characters, only trophies" thing, just say Master Hand created the world by pulling from their home worlds. Bam. Done.
- More boss variety. Tabuu is the final boss, and Galleom was cool, but Duon just plain sucked. Nintendo has so many cool boss characters. Use them. As well, make their fights more varied. Meta Ridley had a time limit and Petey had the cage gimmick, but those were still barely different from the damage sponge status quo. Give them more unique defeat objectives.

- Keep the cutscenes. Those were awesome.