Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DJ3DS]

Anyway, if I had to have a 30 character roster:

Spoiler

1 - Mario
2 - Bowser
3 - Yoshi
4 - Peach
5 - Wario
6 - Donkey Kong
7 - Diddy Kong
8 - King K. Rool
9 - Link
10 - Zelda
11 - Ganondorf
12 - Samus
13 - Ridley
14 - Kirby
15 - Meta Knight
16 - King Dedede
17 - Pikachu
18 - Charizard
19 - Lucario
20 - Fox
21 - Marth
22 - Villager
23 - Olimar
24 - Ness
25 - Captain Falcon
26 - Inkling
27 - Sonic
28 - Pac-Man
29 - Mega-Man
30 - Ryu

Bear in mind that (apart from my prevalence of including the main antagonists of the series with multiple characters) this probably isn't my ideal roster. It actually omits my main; if I had 5 more characters I'd be happy calling it complete with:

Spoiler

31 - ROB
32 - Mr. Game and Watch
33 - Ice Climbers
34 - Pit
35 - Robin

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I've heard that it's a popular opinion in Japan to think the Kirby series is really unrepresented in smash and that's one of the reasons I bet there will be multiple Kirby characters.

I think Magolor was more of a flavor of the month character, as he was kinda replaced by Taranza and then Susie in future games. (I still think Magolor is more popular and has had more relevance in side games than both of those characters though).

I mean, I suppose we could see Magolor as the 5th Kirby character, but I'd rather see Marx or Dark matter

No to mention that Susie has been replaced as flavor of the month, not by a new character but by the first load of DLC dream friends (Rick/Kine/Coo, Marx and Gooey)

Posers. I was voting for Gooey way before it was cool.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Are we ever going to get Animal Buddies back in the DK series?

Why was that killed? For Funky Mode?

Because in 2018, we'd rather get down with being Funky than riding

 

[Cosmic77]

I can believe that: when in Japan I found Kirby-related trinkets even in the smallest of kiosks so its definitely found its place over there, and I could see people wanting more of Kirby in Smash.

I just kinda feel that Sakurai is a bit confused when it comes to Kirby representation, seeing as he created the franchise he might treat it a bit differently (understandable really). But he did plan an Epic Yarn stage in Smash 4 so here's hoping the gates will fully open for more recent Kirby content in the next Smash, and a newcomer to go along with it.

I still don't know how to interpret Sakurai treating the Kirby series in Smash.

The better half of me wants to say that Sakurai is just being careful because everyone knows he created the Kirby series, and he doesn't want people to think he's playing favorites. However, that doesn't really explain why he goes out of his way to hold back Kirby, a popular and iconic Nintendo series that's pumped out dozens of games, but is more than willing to immediately give several trophies, items, stages, and characters to Kid Icarus, a niche series that's only had three games. The lack of modern Kirby stages and trophies just makes it even worse.

At least Kirby is popular and heavily merchandised in Sakurai's home country. It'll be harder for him to ignore the criticism regarding a lack of Kirby content than it would if NA and EU fans were the only ones complaining.

 

[Antimatter042]

30 Characters? I hated making this:

Spoiler: 30 characters

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Donkey Kong
6. Diddy Kong
7. Yoshi
8. Wario
9. Link
10. Zelda
11. Ganondorf
12. Pikachu
13. Charizard
14. Lucario
15. Dusk Lycanroc
16. Kirby
17. King Dedede
18. Samus
19. Ridley
20. Marth
21. Robin
    
22. Pit
23. Takamaru
24. Fox
25. Ness
26. Captain Falcon
27. Villager
28. Olimar
29. Inklings
30. Shulk

Rebooting to 30 characters just isn't satisfying. There isn't actually enough room there to show off a fair scope of Nintendo's legacy while including the 3rd Parties so many get excited for and a decent variety of weird classics and fan requests.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I still don't know how to interpret Sakurai treating the Kirby series in Smash.

The better half of me wants to say that Sakurai is just being careful because everyone knows he created the Kirby series, and he doesn't want people to think he's playing favorites. However, that doesn't really explain why he goes out of his way to hold back Kirby, a popular and iconic Nintendo series that's pumped out dozens of games, but is more than willing to immediately give several trophies, items, stages, and characters to Kid Icarus, a niche series that's only had three games. The lack of modern Kirby stages and trophies just makes it even worse.

At least Kirby is popular and heavily merchandised in Sakurai's home country. It'll be harder for him to ignore the criticism regarding a lack of Kirby content than it would if NA and EU fans were the only ones complaining.

Don't forget that a lot of the Kid Icarus content was very easy to port over due to Uprising being a 3DS title. That's the only reason given. Only Palutena was planned as well for playable. Dark Pit was a last minute addition, after all. He didn't intend to give more than one character beyond a very popular one.

As for Kirby, he has the core characters that he created. I don't remember if he created Bandanna Waddle Dee, but his main appearances these days are in games he didn't create. If anything, it's possible he might be a little biased among Kirby content. Not that that is unusual. Everybody has biases.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

In regards to the discussion about international appeal, Sakurai himself stated that had he known Mother 3 wasn't going to release internationally, Lucas wouldn't have been playable in Brawl. So there is definite concerns from Sakurai about having inclusions come across as too Japan-centric.

 

[Jubileus57]

30 characters only? Well, mine will not be realistic in the slightest and go with my own personal tastes:
1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Peach
4. Bowser
5. Rosalina & Luma
6. Paper Mario
7. Yoshi
8. Donkey Kong
9. Link
10. Zelda
11. Ganondorf
12. Kirby
13. King Dedede
41. Meta Knight
15. Bandana Waddle Dee
16. Miis
17. Samus
18. Zero Suit Samus
19. Pit
20. Palutena
21. Villager
22. Isabelle
23. Olimar
24. Inklings
25. Jigglypuff
26. R.O.B.
27. Mr. Game & Watch
28. Wii Fit Trainer
29. Starfy
30. Bayonetta

(Yes they could axe Pikachu, Fox or any Fire emblem chars for all I care if it means keeping the WFT, my Bayo or get Starfy)

 

[Spatman]

No, I'm pretty sure he was omitted due to a lack of fan demand.

It's true that most of that "lack of fan demand" is probably due to not having a game in the west until recently, but if that's what's trying to be said by saying that he's "too Japanese", then that's just weird and unnecessary.

He/she means that Takamaru is knowed almost only in Japan because his game was released only there

 

[Koopaul]

"Too Japanese" is a silly way of putting it. I think Sakurai wants to put in characters that are recognized worldwide. That's the key word "recognized". So Japan only/Western only characters probably won't get in beyond an Assist like Prince of Sablé.

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

If I sound rude it's possibly because I'm sick and tired of people complaining about the same thing everyday. Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina are in the game and the game is fully playable.

Until we hear some bona fide news from a proper source that is worth discussing, then topics and people will just continue to go around in circles.

E3, or a Direct can't come soon enough.

Some of you guys take all of this way too seriously...

Some posters think they're more important than what they really are on here.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

You should watch this video that was posted on Source Gamings YouTube channel going over what makes Takamaru so likely.

People must mean something different when they say likely than I do. I mean >=50% chance.

I literally don't think there is a single nonconfirmed nonveteran character that describes. Takamaru might be more likely than some but considering he has been considered likely for two games now and still isn't in, the odds aren't in his favor. The thing about retro character picks is there are so many possibilities that basically everyone is very unlikely.

 

[Senselessbreak]

So if Mike Jones gets added would he be called just Mike?

Most characters in Smash are referred to by their first name only. Fox McCloud is just callled Fox. Samus Aran is just called Samus. Sonic the Hedgehog is just Sonic. Ganondorf Dragmire is just Ganondorf. Even certain titles are shortened at times like Marth instead of Prince Marth and Palutena instead of Lady Palutena. Captain Olimar is even called Olimar while Captain Falcon retains his rank. The "Captain" in Captain Falcon isn't his first name (Its Douglas).The only characters on the roster that I see go by a first and last name are Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong. However, the "Kong" name is a vital part to the characters' indentities and are even on the title of all their games.

In Mike's case hes mostly called just Mike in his own game. His name is not shared in the title either. Most fans call him Mike Jones as a way to make other familiar with which Mike they are talking about. If he is added he will probably just be called Mike in game. Theres also the factor of the rapper named Mike Jones who they might want to distance themselves from and avoid confusion and comparisons.

 

[Rockaphin]

People must mean something different when they say likely than I do. I mean >=50% chance.

I agree with this statement. 90% sounds like said character is almost guaranteed to appear as a playable character. At this point, I don't really think any speculated newcomer deserves a 90%.

 

[Cosmic77]

I still don't see how people can possibly argue why one retro character is more likely than another. Takamaru, a literal ninja with a sword, shurikens, and plenty of moveset potential, was considered all the way back in Melee, but ultimately failed to get in Smash before a pair of blue and pink Eskimos with hammers, a flat 2-dimensional man who fights with bug spray and sausage links, a toy robot accessory who's not even a real video game character, and a quadrupedal cartoony dog with a random duck on its back.

Clearly there's no consistent pattern in how Sakurai chooses retro characters. Unless you pull up the "he's been considered before" argument (which hasn't worked for him so far) or the "he's been an assist trophy" card, there's not really much that's happened in Smash history that makes Takamaru any likelier than someone weird and unexpected like Balloon Fighter or Excitebiker.

 

[Spatman]

I still don't see how people can possibly argue why one retro character is more likely than another. Takamaru, a literal ninja with a sword, shurikens, and plenty of moveset potential, was considered all the way back in Melee, but ultimately failed to get in Smash before a pair of blue and pink Eskimos with hammers, a flat 2-dimensional man who fights with bug spray and sausage links, a toy robot accessory who's not even a real video game character, and a quadrupedal cartoony dog with a random duck on its back.

Clearly there's no consistent pattern in how Sakurai chooses retro characters. Unless you pull up the "he's been considered before" argument (which hasn't worked for him so far) or the "he's been an assist trophy" card, there's not really much that's happened in Smash history that makes Takamaru any likelier than someone weird and unexpected like Balloon Fighter or Excitebiker.

The only pattern, if we want, it's the choice of weird and unexpected characters as you said. And I dare even more: silly characters who give a laughter when revelead/unlocked/played

In these terms, Takamaru seems less likely

 

[Senselessbreak]

I still don't see how people can possibly argue why one retro character is more likely than another. Takamaru, a literal ninja with a sword, shurikens, and plenty of moveset potential, was considered all the way back in Melee, but ultimately failed to get in Smash before a pair of blue and pink Eskimos with hammers, a flat 2-dimensional man who fights with bug spray and sausage links, a toy robot accessory who's not even a real video game character, and a quadrupedal cartoony dog with a random duck on its back.

Clearly there's no consistent pattern in how Sakurai chooses retro characters. Unless you pull up the "he's been considered before" argument (which hasn't worked for him so far) or the "he's been an assist trophy" card, there's not really much that's happened in Smash history that makes Takamaru any likelier than someone weird and unexpected like Balloon Fighter or Excitebiker.

While I do expect someone like Excitebiker or Balloon Fighter more at this point, it seems like now is the best time to finally include Takamaru. His game was recently localized. He was in Nintendo land. And he had an AT, which his model is fully ready to carry over into Smash 5 (graphics are pretty much the same from wii u to switch).

 

[Spatman]

While I do expect someone like Excitebiker or Balloon Fighter more at this point, it seems like now is the best time to finally include Takamaru. His game was recently localized. He was in Nintendo land. And he had an AT, which his model is fully ready to carry over into Smash 5 (graphics are pretty much the same from wii u to switch).

Btw nothing prevents them to add more than one "retro" character, so a more serious like Takamaru and one funnier like Excitebiker

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Btw nothing prevents them to add more than one "retro" character, so a more serious like Takamaru and one funnier like Excitebiker

True, they added both Kid Icarus and ROB in brawl and Ice Climbers and G&W in Melee.

 

[Nauzgo]

Probably the only retro characters who are famous internationally are Takamaru, Mike, Balloon Fighter, and Mach Rider. They probably won't change Villagers recovery so Balloon Fighter stands a pretty little chance.

Takamaru should be known enough now to get included and Mike was like the only bigger retro rep that hasn't been considered at least offically, so he could be the one.

Excitebiker btw doesn't count as retro rep since there's a WiiWare Excitebike game from 2009 (and also Excite Truck & Excitebots if you want to count them in, too).

 

[Koopaul]

I'm sure a retro character that adds something unique to the roster will be on the top of Sakurai's list.

Probably the only retro characters who are famous internationally are Takamaru, Mike, Balloon Fighter, and Mach Rider.

I'm not sure about that. Takamaru was a mere eshop release years later in the West. And Mike Jones would probably be completely unknown to most Japanese people.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I've heard that it's a popular opinion in Japan to think the Kirby series is really unrepresented in smash and that's one of the reasons I bet there will be multiple Kirby characters.

I think Magolor was more of a flavor of the month character, as he was kinda replaced by Taranza and then Susie in future games. (I still think Magolor is more popular and has had more relevance in side games than both of those characters though).

I mean, I suppose we could see Magolor as the 5th Kirby character, but I'd rather see Marx or Dark matter

Sidenote, I wanna say Susie would be dope, the mech armour playstyle would be awesome and robobot actually came out at the perfect time to be represented in smash 4, probably not gonna happen but eh. Anyone have any idea how popular she is?

 

[Staarih]

I feel like Nintendo Land must have raised awareness of Takamaru at least a bit. The game sold millions and Takamaru had an attraction among big names like Zelda, Metroid and DK.

Unless people just saw it as a random cool ninja minigame haha.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I think the only NES characters Takamaru has to compete with are Mach Rider, Pro Wrestlers, and Ossan (as a surprise character).

Characters like Excite Biker, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, and Urban Champion were dismissed because Sakurai felt they wouldn't integrate well in Smash. He's also against Japanese exclusive retro characters (which Takamaru no longer is), and he'd probably be against Mike Jones too for being a western exclusive.

 

[Cosmic77]

I think the only NES characters Takamaru has to compete with are Mach Rider, Pro Wrestlers, and Ossan (as a surprise character).

Characters like Excite Biker, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, and Urban Champion were dismissed because Sakurai felt they wouldn't integrate well in Smash. He's also against Japanese exclusive retro characters (which Takamaru no longer is), and he'd probably be against Mike Jones too for being a western exclusive.

You can't put too much stock into this "Sakurai is against" argument.

Sakurai was once against Villager, blah blah blah, he was also against Pac-Man, yada yada yada... Point is, Sakurai could do a full 180 turn on any of these characters. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility with him.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I think the only NES characters Takamaru has to compete with are Mach Rider, Pro Wrestlers, and Ossan (as a surprise character).

Characters like Excite Biker, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, and Urban Champion were dismissed because Sakurai felt they wouldn't integrate well in Smash. He's also against Japanese exclusive retro characters (which Takamaru no longer is), and he'd probably be against Mike Jones too for being a western exclusive.

tbh I feel like they could make excite biker work now, it's not like Sakurai's never gone back on his word I guess

 

[BluePikmin11]

You know what I feel will happen with new third-parties, all of the choices will be ones based on the ballot. I thought about Heihachi as a possible choice for a while, but I feel he will get passed over because Namco Bandai representation has already been settled with just Pac-Man long time ago in Smash 4. He might have company relationship in his potential favor for this game, but it feels like Heihachi was nothing more than a brief thought, based on what Sakurai has said about Pac-Man's inclusion way back in a 2014 E3 interview. I cannot see him being considered again, unless his ballot ranking is VERY high, which I find unlikely.

Unless, Sakurai wants to retry and push for Heihachi again after working on Ryu for a fighting game style Smash character. It would definitely be a the next step, but I think demanded characters will be a major focus, especially after Bayonetta. It is why I have choices like Rayman, Layton, and Sora for predictions. The latter is a major wildcard, but I feel after Cloud and his likely major demand on the ballot, I think Sora would be the next third-party to be chosen for the game. I will try to clarify more about my recent confidence on Sora when he gets rated in RTC. Something about Sora just clicks with me when I consider previous Smash newcomers and many Sakurai interviews.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

You can't put too much stock into this "Sakurai is against" argument.

Sakurai was once against Villager, blah blah blah, he was also against Pac-Man, yada yada yada... Point is, Sakurai could do a full 180 turn on any of these characters. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility with him.

He was against those characters in Brawl, but then reconsidered and included them in the very next game. He's been against these characters since Melee and it seems he has yet to change his mind.

 

[MrReyes96]

Sidenote, I wanna say Susie would be dope, the mech armour playstyle would be awesome and robobot actually came out at the perfect time to be represented in smash 4, probably not gonna happen but eh. Anyone have any idea how popular she is?

I’d love a heavyweight mech character, especially a girl. I don’t think she was very popular though, the next best bet for that type of character is Mechanica from arms

 

[Rockaphin]

I'd personally like to see Mach Rider as the Retro rep for Switch. But maybe that's because of Super Smash Bros. Crusade.

I've warmed up to Takamaru, I use to be heavily against the character. I think I'd be more interested to see what they could come up with for Mach Rider rather than Takamaru. But, I think Takamaru is more deserving at this point.

I can't think of another Retro character I'd like to see off the top of my head. Excite Biker and Balloon Fighter are some other characters I could think of, but I'm not really seeing too much potential from them. I don't know much about the Prince of Sable. Seems interesting and some one I could back if I knew more about the game.

 

[Bowserlick]

Mach Rider is a warrior grafted with junked vehicle machinery.
This allows Mach Rider to transform his/her body into destructive constructs.

B: Machine Gun Turret - Turns into a machine gun turret that can aim in all directions and shoot for a limited time. In the air, Mach Rider does not turn into a grounded turret, yet can aim in all directions while falling.

Down B: Gear Shift - Parts of technology rotate along Mach Rider's body to create a sleeker & faster, yet less powerful design. Four Gears

Side B: Machcycle - Turns into an armored motorcycle with a mounted gun

Up B: Metalocation - Disintegrates into shards of metal that can be aimed with a directional input. Unlike teleports, this move can do damage without any hitstun. Does not go far.

 

[MrReyes96]

I’m going to bring this up again, do you guys think we’re underestimating the possibility of another splatoon rep? When you look at he time frame the game was planned and now, the biggest new Nintendo IP was splatoon and it just continued to grow and become this huge series for Nintendo, especially in japan. Callie and Marie have been the face of the game, they’re heavily involved in both the stories of 1 and 2. They are canonically secret agents and capable of combat.many people expect them to be assist trophies or stage cameos, but pearl and marina could easily take those spots instead.
Not to mention they’re popular enough for this to happen

And there’s enough weapons in splatoon that it’s possible one inkling can’t cover them all.
Or they can use music/dancing based attacks.

I’m even just going to go out on a limb and predict them, but what do you guys think? Yes splatoon is probably fine with one rep but it’s their biggest new IP in a long time, and extremely popular.

 

[Opossum]

Mach Rider is a warrior grafted with junked vehicle machinery.
This allows Mach Rider to transform his/her body into destructive constructs.

B: Machine Gun Turret - Turns into a machine gun turret that can aim in all directions and shoot for a limited time. In the air, Mach Rider does not turn into a grounded turret, yet can aim in all directions while falling.

Down B: Gear Shift - Parts of technology rotate along Mach Rider's body to create a sleeker & faster, yet less powerful design. Four Gears

Side B: Machcycle - Turns into an armored motorcycle with a mounted gun

Up B: Metalocation - Disintegrates into shards of metal that can be aimed with a directional input. Unlike teleports, this move can do damage without any hitstun. Does not go far.

But WHY would Mach Rider be a shapeshifter? I get the whole "explode and reform" thing because of his death animation, but to make him into a shape shifting technomancer (turn into his bike? Or a turret?) is incredibly random and not at all what Mach Rider is about.

There's taking creative liberties, and then there's making a character into someone completely different. This is an example of the latter.

 

[Bowserlick]

But WHY would Mach Rider be a shapeshifter? I get the whole "explode and reform" thing because of his death animation, but to make him into a shape shifting technomancer (turn into his bike? Or a turret?) is incredibly random and not at all what Mach Rider is about.

There's taking creative liberties, and then there's making a character into someone completely different. This is an example of the latter.

Duck Hunt Dog lifts its leg and treats your complaint like a fire hydrant.

 

[19_]

Hey remember when we were talking about clone characters?



Here is your clone character. Super easy to to put in and a missed opportunity otherwise.

 

[ErenJager]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

Reala or Vyse

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Duck Hunt Dog lifts its leg and treats your complaint like a fire hydrant.

I don't think you can compare the Duck Hunt dog and duck teaming up to Mach Rider ****ing shapeshifting.

 

[Bowserlick]

I don't think you can compare the Duck Hunt dog and duck teaming up to Mach Rider ****ing shapeshifting.

Sure you can. Duck Hunt Dog operates different than the game and takes drastic liberties, yet does it in a way that captures the spirit of the game.

Mach Rider with shifting body armor captures the Mad Max apocalyptic hell vibe, while taking liberties with an old game.

BONUS: There was a Mach Rider Nintendo toy which was a car. So, a construct creating warrior combines the toy and game.

 

[Fenriraga]

Outside of Melee with Marth and Roy, have we ever gotten more than 1 rep for a new series introduced in that same game? I don't think we have, but I'm trying to rattle my brain.

 

[Opossum]

Sure you can. Duck Hunt Dog operates different than the game and takes drastic liberties, yet does it in a way that captures the spirit of the game.

Mach Rider with shifting body armor captures the Mad Max apocalyptic hell vibe, while taking liberties with an old game.

BONUS: There was a Mach Rider Nintendo toy which was a car. So, a construct creating warrior combines the toy and game.

There's a large middle ground between "having the dog and duck work together" and "give Mach Rider random superpowers he never had as his defining characteristic."