Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CatRaccoonBL]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

I'd probably say Billy Hatcher. Just because I am most nostalgic for that game in particular. I also played a lot of super monkey ball 2, but while that game was fun I can't say I would be really excited to see Aiai in smash.

 

[PF9]

I think there should be character-specific minigames for each character.

Some I had in mind:

Pikachu: A maze where at the end there is a piece of cheese, a reference to what is done with lab mice in real life

Luigi: Uses the Poltergust to vacuum up as many ghosts as possible within a time limit

Kirby: A revamped Gourmet Race from Kirby Super Star, complete with the N64 version of the Gourmet Race theme. Kirby and the CPU controlled King Dedede can hinder each other with their Smash Bros. moves.

Mario: Either a minigame where you collect as many coins as possible or a modernized remake of the arcade game Donkey Kong could work.

There are others I can think of

 

[Hinata]

I'd probably say Billy Hatcher. Just because I am most nostalgic for that game in particular. I also played a lot of super monkey ball 2, but while that game was fun I can't say I would be really excited to see Aiai in smash.

Finally, someone repping my man Billy Hatcher. I loved that game, and I would be ecstatic to see him in Smash Bros.

 

[Senselessbreak]

So who owns cubivore? It got trophies in Melee. Im pretty sure Nintendo doesnt own or even publish the game, so wouldn't that make it the first 3rd party in Smash?

Edit: Nintendo published it in Japan under the name Animal Leader. Atlus published it everywhere else as Cubivore.

Interesting since I don't know who that gives the rights to legally. We haven't seen the game mentioned in Smash since.

 

[Danpal65]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

Golden Axe Warrior maybe? Not a huge consumer of SEGA content, but I remember playing that game and it being sort of Zelda-esque.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

BD Joe from Crazy Taxi.

I'm only moderately joking.

''TAKE ME TO THE KFC! -mows down Mario, Samus, and Ryu to get there-

 

[SamuXCI]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

Jet Set Radio for the music alone.

 

[Blargg888]

Let's do an exercise and assume that there are only going to be thirty characters in the game. Who do you pick? You have to include Mario, Link, and Inklings since they are confirmed. Transformations, if you choose to include them, counts as one character.

1. Mario
2. Luigi
3. Bowser
4. Peach
5. Yoshi
6. Link
7. Zelda
8. Ganondorf
9. Samus
10. DK
11. Marth
12. Robin
13. Kirby
14. King Dedede
15. Meta Knight
16. Fox
17. Pikachu
18. Jigglypuff
19. Decidueye
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Ness
22. Captain Falcon
23. Olimar
24. Villager
25. Shulk
26. Pac-Man
27. Megaman
28. Sonic
29. Mii Fighters
30. Inklings

I hate this, but if this had to happen, this is what I'd hope for.

One of the biggest things about thinking up a 30 character roster is that I had to think about the general masses, and not just myself. If this list was tailored specifically to my wants, the it would be massively different. But Smash Bros is at its best when playing with others, and I wouldn't want other people to be turned off of the game, so I kept it down to characters that I feel would fit best.

The only character that was affected by me making this list was Decidueye. I felt it would be weird if the list only included one newcomer, so I decided on Decidueye. Unfortunately, I passed on Little Mac in order to fit him in, though.

Pit also didn't make it in, which is unfortunate.

 

[colder_than_ice]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

Alex Kidd
Old mascot vs New mascot.

 

[Hoots]

A Fornite character

You best be jestin'.

 

[PLATINUM7]

So who owns cubivore? It got trophies in Melee. Im pretty sure Nintendo doesnt own or even publish the game, so wouldn't that make it the first 3rd party in Smash?

Edit: Nintendo published it in Japan under the name Animal Leader. Atlus published it everywhere else as Cubivore.

Interesting since I don't know who that gives the rights to legally. We haven't seen the game mentioned in Smash since.

Pretty sure Nintendo owns it and that they published it in Japan.

EDIT: Intelligent Systems was also the developer, alongside Saru Brunei which worked in partnership with Nintendo as part of Marigul Entertainment, which is part owned by Nintendo.

 

[Cyn]

Let's do an exercise and assume that there are only going to be thirty characters in the game. Who do you pick? You have to include Mario, Link, and Inklings since they are confirmed. Transformations, if you choose to include them, counts as one character.

Thirty? Hmm.

Spoiler: 30

1. Mario
2. Link
3. Inklings
4. Luigi
5. Peach
6. Bowser
7. Captain Toad
8. Sheik/Zelda (Back to Trans)
9. DK
10. Kirby
11. Dedededed
12. Ganon/Ganondorf
13. Pika
14. Mewtwo
15. Char
16. Pit
17. Marth
18. C. Falcon
19. Rob
20. Olimar
21. G&W
22. Samus/ZSS (Back to Trans)
23. Fox
24. Mega Man
25. Shovel Knight
26. Linkle
27. Sonic
28. Yoshi
29. Newcomer
30. Newcomer

 

[Blargg888]

Thirty? Hmm.

Spoiler: 30

1. Mario
2. Link
3. Inklings
4. Luigi
5. Peach
6. Bowser
7. Captain Toad
8. Sheik/Zelda (Back to Trans)
9. DK
10. Kirby
11. Dedededed
12. Ganon/Ganondorf
13. Pika
14. Mewtwo
15. Char
16. Pit
17. Marth
18. C. Falcon
19. Rob
20. Olimar
21. G&W
22. Samus/ZSS (Back to Trans)
23. Fox
24. Mega Man
25. Shovel Knight
26. Linkle
27. Sonic
28. Yoshi
29. Newcomer
30. Newcomer

When talking about making the Samus' being one character again, would you implement a way to easily switch between them, or would it go back to only switching via Final Smash?

Because only switching via Final Smash kinda sucks.

 

[Cyn]

When talking about making the Samus' being one character again, would you implement a way to easily switch between them, or would it go back to only switching via Final Smash?

Because only switching via Final Smash kinda sucks.

Agreed. I wouldn't want that final Smash thing. I'd want it to be through some input like Zelda/Sheik of old. Speaking of that transformation, I'd want it to be something seamless and quick for both of them so you can jump in and out of forms so you can make it part of a combo or something.

 

[Blargg888]

Agreed. I wouldn't want that final Smash thing. I'd want it to be through some input like Zelda/Sheik of old. Speaking of that transformation, I'd want it to be something seamless and quick for both of them so you can jump in and out of forms so you can make it part of a combo or something.

I like the sound of that, but the problem is, what button would you use to make that happen?

If you were to use Down B like other transforming characters, that would eliminate Samus' bombs and ZSS' Flip Kick, which would be a problem, since ZSS' flip kick is a pretty important move.

 

[Hinata]

Agreed. I wouldn't want that final Smash thing. I'd want it to be through some input like Zelda/Sheik of old. Speaking of that transformation, I'd want it to be something seamless and quick for both of them so you can jump in and out of forms so you can make it part of a combo or something.

That gave me the mental image of Samus pressing a button and her suit just seamlessly exploding off of her mid-jump.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Agreed. I wouldn't want that final Smash thing. I'd want it to be through some input like Zelda/Sheik of old. Speaking of that transformation, I'd want it to be something seamless and quick for both of them so you can jump in and out of forms so you can make it part of a combo or something.

You mean like a stance system.

The issue with that is Shiek and Zelda are considered separate characters from a technical standpoint, with separate textures, models, hitboxes, properties, and sounds. Hence why whenever they transform, there is a small loading period that needs to be preformed in order to properly swap in all of the assets. This is more apparent in Brawl where there's a noticeable delay between changing characters in general. So being able to pull of a proper stance system like that isn't viable; it would either be too slow or too buggy.

Now for the sake of comparison, Smash's residential stance user Shulk doesn't have this issue. He's technically always considered the same character no matter how many times he uses the Modado Arts, so the issue of having to load in different characters is completely irrelevant for him.

 

[Danpal65]

I like the sound of that, but the problem is, what button would you use to make that happen?

If you were to use Down B like other transforming characters, that would eliminate Samus' bombs and ZSS' Flip Kick, which would be a problem, since ZSS' flip kick is a pretty important move.

The way the suit has been portrayed in the manga and Other M the transition is pretty seamless. It could almost be a part of their dash attack, that way there is a sense of immediacy and fluidity to it. Imagine doing stuff as ZSS, jumping around and what not, dash attacking the enemy and then launching a missile into their face. That is totally how I imagine Samus being, fluid, confident and a total badass.

Of course, in Smash, I feel like they work at the moment as individual characters.

 

[Cyn]

I like the sound of that, but the problem is, what button would you use to make that happen?

If you were to use Down B like other transforming characters, that would eliminate Samus' bombs and ZSS' Flip Kick, which would be a problem, since ZSS' flip kick is a pretty important move.

I do not have all the answers, just fleeting dreams.

That gave me the mental image of Samus pressing a button and her suit just seamlessly exploding off of her mid-jump.

I was thinking of something more elegant. She is wearing the height of Chozo-tech after all.

You mean like a stance system.

The issue with that is Shiek and Zelda are considered separate characters from a technical standpoint, with separate textures, models, hitboxes, properties, and sounds. Hence why whenever they transform, there is a small loading period that needs to be preformed in order to properly swap in all of the assets. This is more apparent in Brawl where there's a noticeable delay between changing characters in general. So being able to pull of a proper stance system like that isn't viable; it would either be too slow or too buggy.

Now for the sake of comparison, Smash's residential stance user Shulk doesn't have this issue. He's technically always considered the same character no matter how many times he uses the Modado Arts, so the issue of having to load in different characters is completely irrelevant for him.

I know it is likely not something that will be done, but it is fun to speculate on.

 

[Blargg888]

The way the suit has been portrayed in the manga and Other M the transition is pretty seamless. It could almost be a part of their dash attack, that way there is a sense of immediacy and fluidity to it. Imagine doing stuff as ZSS, jumping around and what not, dash attacking the enemy and then launching a missile into their face. That is totally how I imagine Samus being, fluid, confident and a total badass.

Of course, in Smash, I feel like they work at the moment as individual characters.

Yeah, envisioning that, it actually does sound pretty cool. The problem mechanically-wise is that it would make dash attack a bit of a weird move to use.

That said, this is all just hypothetical, I agree on the whole ZSS and Samus staying separate thing. It's just that I see a lot of people making these "30 Roster" things combining ZSS and Samus without really explaining how it would work, and I wanted to know what people thought. I'm curious.

 

[Cyn]

That said, this is all just hypothetical, I agree on the whole ZSS and Samus staying separate thing. It's just that I see a lot of people making these "30 Roster" things combining ZSS and Samus without really explaining how it would work, and I wanted to know what people thought. I'm curious.

Another possibility would be a certain series of button inputs. Since it was possible with Ryu, I don't see why it can't be possible with other characters.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

I wonder if crash makes it into smash would Coco be a skin swap for him? that would be pretty cool since they have the same movesets

 

[Blargg888]

Another possibility would be a certain series of button inputs. Since it was possible with Ryu, I don't see why it can't be possible with other characters.

Yeah, I suppose that's true.

Sorry if I'm pushing too hard on this subject, I'm just really curious.

Wondering about stuff like this is one of the fun things about Smash speculation for me.

 

[Cyn]

Sorry if I'm pushing too hard on this subject, I'm just really curious.

No worries. It was a good question.

Wondering about stuff like this is one of the fun things about Smash speculation for me.

Same for me.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I wonder if crash makes it into smash would Coco be a skin swap for him? that would be pretty cool since they have the same movesets

I'd love that since I love coco (N-sane trilogy was my first crash game and I played it entirely as her lol) but their bodies are too different so the hitboxes probably wouldn't work, she could be a clone I guess but that'd be SUPER unlikely

 

[Superyoshiom]

https://twitter.com/briannas28/media
3: Each Pokémon had to be from different generations.
4: One Pokémon had to be from Gen 7.

The Pokemon roster ends up feeling really empty if you make a roster this way. No Charizard, Mewtwo, or Jigglypuff just doesn't sit right.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

I'd love that since I love coco (N-sane trilogy was my first crash game and I played it entirely as her lol) but their bodies are too different so the hitboxes probably wouldn't work, she could be a clone I guess but that'd be SUPER unlikely

Really? I would thought there hitboxes would seem similar? unless it's because crash dosen't have a neck lol

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Really? I would thought there hitboxes would seem similar? unless it's because crash dosen't have a neck lol

Coco is shorter and she's got that big ass hair so it probably wouldn't work

 

[SuperMii3D]

I wonder if crash makes it into smash would Coco be a skin swap for him? that would be pretty cool since they have the same movesets

I was hoping they'd do the same with PacMan and Ms. PacMan, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

I wonder if crash makes it into smash would Coco be a skin swap for him? that would be pretty cool since they have the same movesets

They didn't do it for Ryu and Ken, Bayonetta and Jeanne. Probably because different model and require additional voiceline. So I doubt it.

 

[Superyoshiom]

I was hoping they'd do the same with PacMan and Ms. PacMan, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

That's kinda mind-boggling though. You'd literally only have to put a bow on the guy and some lipstick. They were already working with Namco, so legal issues would be near-non-existent.

 

[Kamikazek]

Sakurai has multiple articals that you can find translated by source gaming where he talks about how Japanese games don’t sell in the west anymore. He was recently given an award for smash because it was able to sell world wide. The “too Japanese” thing is legitimate because it’s a concern that he has had in every smash. And if you want confirmation of this just look at the state of smash now. While every character in the roster is of Japanese creation except for Diddy Kong it doesn’t feel Japanese. That’s an intentional part of sakurai’s design because he has been trying to no alienate the west.

Marth is preeeeety Japanese. I know his games technically take place in fantasy Europe his game series was Japanese only when he got added to Smash, he's stuck speaking Japanese forever in Smash localizations and he looks exactly like a standard Japanese character from an 80s anime.

Greninja is a ninja. His final smash involves flipping a tatami mat and then silhouettes against a large moon that's like peak Japanese. And if Sakurai really wanted to avoid specific cultural references that'd be the easiest place to avoid them because there's an extreme excess of viable Pokémon candidates. I guess you could argue Ninja are well known around the world but so are Samurai like Takumaru. Lukario while not Japanese also has very non-western influences.

If you mean characters don't seem like they're from a Japanese game as opposed to direct references to Japanese culture (because "too Japanese" is hella vauge) all the KI characters are veeeery obviously anime inspired, as is the entire game of KI uprising, which Sakurai made. And of course all the FE characters.

Also not sure if you're counting 3rd parties but Cloud is a J-Rockstar with a sword and Ryu is literally a representative of Japan from a game about fighters representing different countries and his stage is a traditional Japanese dojo.


More importantly though, what very Japanese Nintendo characters or even aspects of characters that you'd expect to be in Smash have been omitted? Like....Samurai Goro? Hanafuda? Piston Honda? Like none of those are characters I'd expect even if the dev team were completely neutral on cultural representation. Smash is a Nintendo crossover and most Nintendo games aren't obviously Japanese if you don't know the company, so that's just going to happen.




You're right that Sakurai is seriously concerned about things having global appeal and the fact that Takumaru isn't well known outside of Japan is a huge hurdle for him, in addition to the fact that he's not even that big a deal in Japan, unless Sakurai picks him to give exposure to him. But I don't think that the character itself feeling Japanese has much to do with it or would matter if they were a very Japanese character who is popular in the west like Ryu, and pointing to the current roster doesn't seem to indicate much of anything either way from what I can tell.

 

[Starcutter]

Source Gaming made this during the ballot.

It's obviously not totally accurate, but it can be useful for some speculation.

Look at that tiny Bayonetta, haha.

Also Dee AND Magolor?

I've heard that it's a popular opinion in Japan to think the Kirby series is really unrepresented in smash and that's one of the reasons I bet there will be multiple Kirby characters.

I think Magolor was more of a flavor of the month character, as he was kinda replaced by Taranza and then Susie in future games. (I still think Magolor is more popular and has had more relevance in side games than both of those characters though).

I mean, I suppose we could see Magolor as the 5th Kirby character, but I'd rather see Marx or Dark matter

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Nah, clearly we all can be more Japanese than that.

Sushido Striker for Smash.

 

[Starcutter]

If we get a transforming character I want the transformation move to be really quick and also have a hitbox that works like Falco's shine.

That way comboing between forms is possible.

 

[Superyoshiom]

They didn't do it for Ryu and Ken, Bayonetta and Jeanne. Probably because different model and require additional voiceline. So I doubt it.

Robin, Corrin, and Wii Fit Trainer all have different voices for their alts, so I don't see it being an issue

 

[YoshiandToad]

If SEGA got another rep from one of their lesser known series (NiGHTS, Jet Set Radio, Yakuza, etc... basically anything but Sonic), who would you want it to be?

Vyse from Skies of Arcadia(sky pirates!) Or Alex Kidd for mega old school nostalgia. I think it was the first video game I ever saw played...

 

[DJ3DS]

I was hoping they'd do the same with PacMan and Ms. PacMan, but alas it wasn't meant to be.

I think that's because Bamco doesn't fully own the rights to Ms. PacMan - Crash and Coco is a different scenario.

 

[The Original Robot boy]

They didn't do it for Ryu and Ken, Bayonetta and Jeanne. Probably because different model and require additional voiceline. So I doubt it.

Fine then just give me coco lol

 

[Staarih]

I've heard that it's a popular opinion in Japan to think the Kirby series is really unrepresented in smash and that's one of the reasons I bet there will be multiple Kirby characters.

I can believe that: when in Japan I found Kirby-related trinkets even in the smallest of kiosks so its definitely found its place over there, and I could see people wanting more of Kirby in Smash.

I just kinda feel that Sakurai is a bit confused when it comes to Kirby representation, seeing as he created the franchise he might treat it a bit differently (understandable really). But he did plan an Epic Yarn stage in Smash 4 so here's hoping the gates will fully open for more recent Kirby content in the next Smash, and a newcomer to go along with it.