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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Flyboy

Smash Hero
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I cannot believe we have reached a point in the Super Smash Bros. series where getting Sephiroth is considered "disappointing" to some.

It's a far cry from the days of "the Dolphin is going to be the best game system ever and Smash for Dolphin needs Geno in it".
 

Shroob

Sup?
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People are also jumping the gun on Sephiroth.

There's still a whole other 6 names on that list.



Sephiroth just has the 'new toy' smell to him. People will get tired of talking about him sooner or later like they do with Geno/Sora/DQ
 

PrettyIvyPearls22

Smash Ace
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Messages
781
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Houston, Texas
I don't remember the Brawl aftermath fondly.... At all.


While I'm happy with pretty much any roster we get, the time of Brawl's leaks were....dreadful.



People thought Ness was cut due to how the English blog for Lucas was worded.

People discredited ROB entirely.

People thought Game and Watch was a one-and-done gimmick for some reason.

"Mewtwo? Where's Mewtwo?"

"Wolf? Not Krystal? UGH!"


Not fun times.
The aftermath of Brawl is actually pretty fuzzy to me, I don't remember that much commotion about certain characters. Other than Mewtwo getting cut and also us getting ROB, I don't remember much after the game was released. By that point I was only happy that the game was out because that delay hurt me so.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
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The Ness being cut thing was hilarious because the wording of the Lucas reveal strongly implied Ness's return but people interpreted it backwards and then acted like Sakurai lied to them when we found out about Ness. I remember I thought Brawl's roster was incredibly impressive, but of course, there was blowback as there always is. The thing is that the speculation scene often constructs wild fantasies that usually have like 10 more characters than the game will really have and then is really upset when those fantasies are, in fact, fantasies.

I also kinda like the revisionist history that believes tripping was a big deal in Brawl. The joke I always liked in Brawl's heyday was that if you tripped you always got hit by Ike's fsmash instantly even if Ike wasn't in the match because that was the consequence of tripping if you listened to people online. Actually playing competitive Brawl, tripping pretty much didn't matter. It was only a 1% rate, and if you weren't dumb, you only actually started up dashes at times you got a real advantage for doing so (so you didn't do things like dash around in place). Strong players also did things like always c-stick fsmashes so you don't have a trip rate on them and learned the ICs infinite variations with no trip chances (this was a really big deal since ICs infinites were quite significant to the overall Brawl meta). This meant you saw any trips at all less often than once per tournament set (not game, set: less often than that). Most of the time if you did trip, you just lost a small amount of momentum and didn't even get hit for it since the dynamics of the Brawl meta meant most dash start-ups were done not within striking distance of an opponent, and if you did get hit, it was usually nothing worse than like a nair or a dash attack. In years of that game, I think I saw literally one game ever decided by a trip and it had an impact worth even noticing in maybe up to 5 more. It was such a trivial mechanic, but it sure attracted an incredible amount of attention from people who really didn't play the game...
 

LetterO

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Oh yeah, a highlight from the old Geno Brawl thread was someone saying they considered him a priority on the level of Diddy Kong.

Jeez I need to dig deeper and find more great things from this era.
 

Shroob

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The Ness being cut thing was hilarious because the wording of the Lucas reveal strongly implied Ness's return but people interpreted it backwards and then acted like Sakurai lied to them when we found out about Ness. I remember I thought Brawl's roster was incredibly impressive, but of course, there was blowback as there always is. The thing is that the speculation scene often constructs wild fantasies that usually have like 10 more characters than the game will really have and then is really upset when those fantasies are, in fact, fantasies.

I also kinda like the revisionist history that believes tripping was a big deal in Brawl. The joke I always liked in Brawl's heyday was that if you tripped you always got hit by Ike's fsmash instantly even if Ike wasn't in the match because that was the consequence of tripping if you listened to people online. Actually playing competitive Brawl, tripping pretty much didn't matter. It was only a 1% rate, and if you weren't dumb, you only actually started up dashes at times you got a real advantage for doing so (so you didn't do things like dash around in place). Strong players also did things like always c-stick fsmashes so you don't have a trip rate on them and learned the ICs infinite variations with no trip chances (this was a really big deal since ICs infinites were quite significant to the overall Brawl meta). This meant you saw any trips at all less often than once per tournament set (not game, set: less often than that). Most of the time if you did trip, you just lost a small amount of momentum and didn't even get hit for it since the dynamics of the Brawl meta meant most dash start-ups were done not within striking distance of an opponent, and if you did get hit, it was usually nothing worse than like a nair or a dash attack. In years of that game, I think I saw literally one game ever decided by a trip and it had an impact worth even noticing in maybe up to 5 more. It was such a trivial mechanic, but it sure attracted an incredible amount of attention from people who really didn't play the game...
To be fair though, that 1% shouldn't have even been in the game.


Yeah, you'll be even 99% of the time, but that 1% where the game says "Nah man, u gun trip now" isn't really fair.


It's why critical hits in games like Pokemon/Team Fortress 2/etc are loathed soo much, it's RNG saying "You win/lose".
 

TriggerX

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
524
Verge's 7 Square reps list has apparently been leaked. Here are the characters (Cause I'm too lazy to type them again)

Erdrick
DQ 11 Protagonist/Luminary
Slime
Geno
Sora
Sephiroth
Crono
lot of DQ reps on that list. Seeing as this is a game that more or less celebrates Nintendo's history, I think logically a Dq rep would be the over all best choice. Its promotional, part of their past, and popular at least with fairly large demographic.Unfortunately the pick would probably go to slime. However, I think the pirahna plant reveal was pretty weak. A character like slime might not be the way to go if SE is the first DLC.
Both characters share a very simplistic design so If I were developing a release timeline as a developer I probably wouldnt release two characters like this consecutively.

Sephiroth, Im kind of doubting. I just dont think he would be an interesting add with the amount of sword based characters we have.

Chrono and Geno to me are the most interesting characters on this list though. The most obscure out of the bunch,but have their own cult following.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Um... what are you trying to get at with this?
If this was udderd in a Brawl Geno support group i would get banned
 
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SoccerStar9001

Smash Lord
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I really don't think there will be anything new about Smash at the game awards. Maybe a cool new trailer, but that's about it. Outside of Isabelle (who came with an announcement of AC switch), all of Smash Ultimate's characters are revealed via a Smash focused direct. I think the earliest we hear from Sakurai again will be when P L A N T is finally out and maybe a new character is shown similar to Cloud + Bayo/Corrin.
 

MainJPW

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To be fair though, that 1% shouldn't have even been in the game.


Yeah, you'll be even 99% of the time, but that 1% where the game says "Nah man, u gun trip now" isn't really fair.
It seemed like I tripped a lot with Captain Falcon and especially Sonic. It made me hate Brawl a little. A LOT a little.
 

osby

Smash Obsessed
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Messages
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To be fair though, that 1% shouldn't have even been in the game.


Yeah, you'll be even 99% of the time, but that 1% where the game says "Nah man, u gun trip now" isn't really fair.


It's why critical hits in games like Pokemon/Team Fortress 2/etc are loathed soo much, it's RNG saying "You win/lose".
I mean, trivial stuff like this happens in pretty much all RPGs. In most of them, if you target the same enemy with same attack twice, it'll do slightly different damage, to not make the game too mathematical and predictable.
 

Shroob

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I mean, trivial stuff like this happens in pretty much all RPGs. In most of them, if you target the same enemy with same attack twice, it'll do slightly different damage, to not make the game too mathematical and predictable.
The difference here is most rpgs are single player, so you can have wide variance.


Having rng aspects in pvp is always a cause for concern.
 

Koopaul

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,336
Apparently Verge's list of 7 SE characters that he had heard his sources mention got leaked. Sephiroth was one of them. I don't think he has made any real comment on whether they are in or not though tmk
Who are the other 6?
 

RyuhoFox

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It seemed like I tripped a lot with Captain Falcon and especially Sonic. It made me hate Brawl a little. A LOT a little.
Honestly it's something that will likely affect casual players more since competitive players at least knew of ways to reduce the chances of it happening while a casual player just has to deal with it.
It's a gigantically dumb thing either way though imo

Who are the other 6?
Erdrick
DQ 11 Protagonist/Luminary
Slime
Geno
Sora
Crono
 
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KMDP

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
12,199
Oh yeah, a highlight from the old Geno Brawl thread was someone saying they considered him a priority on the level of Diddy Kong.
I... uh...

...um...

WHAT!?
It seemed like I tripped a lot with Captain Falcon and especially Sonic. It made me hate Brawl a little. A LOT a little.
Captain Falcon and Sonic are fast characters, you're encouraged to dash with them a lot. Because they're fast, they cover more ground, meaning you dash more often.

When you dash, you have a chance of tripping.

Understand what I mean?
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
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To be fair though, that 1% shouldn't have even been in the game.


Yeah, you'll be even 99% of the time, but that 1% where the game says "Nah man, u gun trip now" isn't really fair.


It's why critical hits in games like Pokemon/Team Fortress 2/etc are loathed soo much, it's RNG saying "You win/lose".
I mean it was a negative mechanic, but the magnitude was just so tiny that it basically didn't matter. Another negative mechanic in every Smash game other than 64 is that Mr. Game & Watch has a move that has a 1/9 chance (1/7 in Brawl because detailed reasons) of doing 30%ish damage and killing at about 30% too. It's a really bad move other than that chance too so basically you can gamble for a small chance to just win a stock. Peach's turnips are even more extreme; you can just randomly get stitch faces and bombs, and while it's solid Peach strategy to try to pull a lot to give yourself good odds over time, if you have a lucky streak and pull multiple stitches/bombs in short order it can totally swing a match and I'm pretty sure we've all seen it happen several times (alternatively, while you probably didn't take note, I'm pretty sure we've all seen matches where Peach has pulled hundreds of the things and gotten not a single stitch or bomb). On the topic of Peach, before 4, her fsmash was random, and I'm pretty sure we've also all seen matches where Peach has barely whiffed a would kill fsmash and you go "golf club would have hit" or gotten a good read up close and gone "if it wasn't golf club, they'd be dead"; that just happens with the character. Tripping is just so much smaller than all of that because of both its rarity and how little of an impact it has when it does happen; it's the kind of complaint that was always more about the idea than the gameplay because in gameplay it just like... didn't come up as important when similar conceptual things actually did and are in all the Smash games and no one cares.

This probably doesn't matter to Ultimate too much because obviously tripping isn't back, but I do think it's important to look at any dynamics you see and don't like and go "so in total, how much does this even matter?" because a lot of times the answer really is "not too much".
 
D

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Tripping is just one of the the things that makes competitive horrible for brawl like chain grabs Mk unbalanced roster etc.
 

BlondeLombax

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To break up some discord on here (I know it's been omnipresent as of late), allow me to share something with all of you.
The Grinch leak featured multiple characters, all many fans would enjoy, Isaac and Shadow being the most prominent ones.
Incineroar and Ken's debut trailer slew the leak.
Ken was also shown off in the Grinch leak.
Isaac and Shadow are both assist trophies, and all the other characters are either spirits or nowhere at all.
Fans have been treating these "disconfirmations" as essentially death for the character('s chances).
Incineroar has fire involved with its every move.

Say it with me now, Smash Ultimate is Genealogy of the Holy War by an entirely different moniker.
 

RyuhoFox

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I... uh...

...um...

WHAT!?

Captain Falcon and Sonic are fast characters, you're encouraged to dash with them a lot. Because they're fast, they cover more ground, meaning you dash more often.

When you dash, you have a chance of tripping.

Understand what I mean?
To be fair it's not like it's much different now. Had at least one person here say Geno would be more known and cared for at the VGAs than Sora. Some fans grossly overestimate their characters importance and chances sometimes
 

Aerospherology

Smash Lord
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DLC reveal speculation:

The Game Awards (unlikely, but still): Square Enix character

Direct around March: First-party character (probably FE: Three Houses)

Minecon World 2019: Steve

Direct around October: Gen 8 Pokemon

December/January direct: Another third-party character
 

SoccerStar9001

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,246
To break up some discord on here (I know it's been omnipresent as of late), allow me to share something with all of you.
The Grinch leak featured multiple characters, all many fans would enjoy, Isaac and Shadow being the most prominent ones.
Incineroar and Ken's debut trailer slew the leak.
Ken was also shown off in the Grinch leak.
Isaac and Shadow are both assist trophies, and all the other characters are either spirits or nowhere at all.
Fans have been treating these "disconfirmations" as essentially death for the character('s chances).
Incineroar has fire involved with its every move.

Say it with me now, Smash Ultimate is Genealogy of the Holy War by an entirely different moniker.
Thinking back to it now, even though I was TeamFake, my expectation skyrocketed after that leak and I had a really positive feeling for Isaac's odds. Probably should have kept it in check after.
Still, it was a very Holy War already.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
To be fair it's not like it's much different now. Had at least one person here say Geno would be more known and cared for at the VGAs than Sora. Some fans grossly overestimate their characters importance and chances sometimes
Ya like those pesky Sans fans an minor character in a indy game won't make it no matter how good the memes are
 

SoccerStar9001

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Minecon World 2019: Steve
Don't expect anything Smash outside of Smash/Nintendo focused event. It would be insane for Nintendo to expect Smash fans to go to all kinds of random events hoping for a Smash content and showing for Smash contents to non Smash fans isn't always gonna be as received well.
 

Arymle Roseanne

Smash Lord
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Into Sandy's City
I cannot believe we have reached a point in the Super Smash Bros. series where getting Sephiroth is considered "disappointing" to some.

It's a far cry from the days of "the Dolphin is going to be the best game system ever and Smash for Dolphin needs Geno in it".
Well there is a thing called different opinions you know... its not like everyone in the world likes him.

I wouldn't mind him personally but he better come with his theme song.
 

osby

Smash Obsessed
Joined
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Messages
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Thinking back to it now, even though I was TeamFake, my expectation skyrocketed after that leak and I had a really positive feeling for Isaac's odds. Probably should have kept it in check after.
Still, it was a very Holy War already.
There was nothing holy about what came after that.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

Spiciest of Guacamoles
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DLC Predictions:
- Sylux to market Prime 4
- Some Three Houses rep, probably Edelgard if she's unique enough
- Square Enix rep
- Microsoft rep
- Either another third-party or someone from a recently released first-party game
 
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