Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[BluePikmin11]

The thing about Wolf, though, is that he wouldn’t even exist had the game not been delayed to accommodate Sonic. Barring some substantial delay in the project, I just don’t think Sakurai would have time to create a “Wolfified” semiclone at the end of development like he did in Brawl. If we get more dessert clones, I can’t see them being more unique than simple model swaps like in Smash 4.

Well, given that he only has to develop one Smash version without fear of notable technical limitations, that indicates to me that he will finally have the time to add new semi-clones to Smash Switch. The simple model swaps are a possibility, but that entirely depends on how much of a new game Smash Switch is, of which I personally believe Smash Switch to be a port with lots of new content to make the game seem new.

 

[Bowserlick]

I would say that two pokemon is plausible (especially if DLC is a thing).

 

[RandomAce]

It's nothing important, but I had a dream that we got various news about the new Smash Bros.

Noteworthy parts were:

And a new playable character who would "break the old rules of Smash and open a whole new category of possible characters" as Sakurai put it...

Woody from Toy Story.

Spoiler

I think we'll be definitely getting two pokemon if this game gets DLC (Which it most likley will). I mean Gen 7 just game out when Sakurai probably started working on this smash game, so were probably getting a Gen 7 pokemon and well most likley get a Gen 8 pokemon when the game comes out as a DLC character.

 

[Superyoshiom]

This video on clones kinda changed my view towards clone characters. If in the next game, Dark Pit and Lucina recieve the Falco and Luigi treatment, I wouldn't mind them on the roster.

However, I am still adamant on the fact that Dr. Mario should be an alt because he is literally an alternate costume for Mario.

 

[Wyoming]

Logically, Dr. Mario should have been....but since he was his own character twice nope.

On your bike with that, mate

 

[FlareHabanero]

I have to disagree and say Mimikyu fits that popular pokemon pic. It's super popular in Japan, blew up on the internet, and is receiving tons of marketing from the pokemon company and is a regular in the anime. Mimikyu is just not as popular or as discussed as Decideuye when it comes to Smash speculation, mostly due to that fact that Decideuye has more potential for a move set in a fighting game.

Mimikyu's downfall won't be it's lack of popularity or improtance to gen 7, but whether or not Sakurai can see move set potential.

Keep in mind that Mimikyu, at the bare minimum, at least has hands for possible punches, grabs, and cuts. But on a grander scale, it's mixture of Ghost-type, Electric-type, and Fairy-type characteristics allows it enough flexibility to come up with a moveset.

But if you need some examples of what I'm talking about.

• Mimikyu is associated with the move Play Rough in particular. This can be referenced several ways, one example being a command grab where Mimikyu lunges forward and "grabs" the opponent, utterly beating the **** out of them in a comical fashion.
• Leech Life can be used as a limited healing and damage option. For example, Mimikyu's down throw could involve Mimikyu engulfing the opponent and sapping at their health, inflicting damage and restoring a small percentage of health in exchange.
• Shadow Claw can be a utility move where Mimikyu "scratches" in a specific area, leaving a scar in the air. By pressing the button again you will execute the real move, allowing for some interesting combos.
• Referencing it's general eldritch horror characteristics. Such as swamping the opponent in dark matter or slamming opponents with shadowy hands that seemingly come out of nowhere. Plus other Ghost type stables, like Will-o-Wisp could be used as an up smash where Mimikyu creates a ring of blue fire above it's head to inflict damage.
  
• Referencing it's relationship with Pikachu, where it mimics some of Pikachu's actions.
• Referencing it's unique ability Disguise, such as granting Mimikyu super armor that eventually breaks under certain conditions, such as sustaining too much damage.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Logically, Dr. Mario should have been....but since he was his own character twice nope.

On your bike with that, mate

Dr. Mario was a clone back when the idea of alternate costumes was foreign (I believe Sakurai said something about the pills having different properties than fireballs even though Project M could deal with it). He was about to be an alt in Smash 4 but Sakurai made him a clone because he didn't want to upset fans who played as him.

It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Dr. Mario cannot be an alt due to physical gameplay differences. It doesn't work. Megavitamins being reskins misses the point, as they have different effects. Dr. Mario definitely cannot use the FLUDD, though I'll be fair and say that the Spin isn't much better, but it's still not as odd overall. A new Down B would be nice.

Same reason the rest aren't alts overall, because of gameplay differences. Coincidentally, Alph has none, and thus, is an alt still.

Also, Project M isn't a good example because Sakurai isn't willing to do that. Battle Records cannot show Costumes as different characters. This is important because if they have gameplay differences, that means that you're actually using a different character with different options. This means you're basically someone else and should have battle records to that particular character. Which is how he views it. And why Dr. Mario cannot be an alt at this time(if he can fix the battle record issue, then he'd be a perfectly fine alt with gameplay differences. But that's unlikely to happen, although he may still prefer a unique slot either way).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Keep in mind that Mimikyu, at the bare minimum, at least has hands for possible punches, grabs, and cuts. But on a grander scale, it's mixture of Ghost-type, Electric-type, and Fairy-type characteristics allows it enough flexibility to come up with a moveset.

But if you need some examples of what I'm talking about.

• Mimikyu is associated with the move Play Rough in particular. This can be referenced several ways, one example being a command grab where Mimikyu lunges forward and "grabs" the opponent, utterly beating the **** out of them in a comical fashion.
• Leech Life can be used as a limited healing and damage option. For example, Mimikyu's down throw could involve Mimikyu engulfing the opponent and sapping at their health, inflicting damage and restoring a small percentage of health in exchange.
• Shadow Claw can be a utility move where Mimikyu "scratches" in a specific area, leaving a scar in the air. By pressing the button again you will execute the real move, allowing for some interesting combos.
• Referencing it's general eldritch horror characteristics. Such as swamping the opponent in dark matter or slamming opponents with shadowy hands that seemingly come out of nowhere. Plus other Ghost type stables, like Will-o-Wisp could be used as an up smash where Mimikyu creates a ring of blue fire above it's head to inflict damage.
  
• Referencing it's relationship with Pikachu, where it mimics some of Pikachu's actions.
• Referencing it's unique ability Disguise, such as granting Mimikyu super armor that eventually breaks under certain conditions, such as sustaining too much damage.

I agree. Mimikyu would undoubtedly be the most interesting option available out of him, Zeraora, and Decidueye.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I like to think that it was a combination of making two versions, technical limitations, and alternate costume experimentation that led to the result of Smash 4’s near clones being present. For Smash Switch, I do not think these would be a problem anymore, which would allow semi-clones to be made.

 

[N3ON]

I remember the time I dressed up as a doctor and suddenly lost the ability to use a hose.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

This video on clones kinda changed my view towards clone characters. If in the next game, Dark Pit and Lucina recieve the Falco and Luigi treatment, I wouldn't mind them on the roster.

However, I am still adamant on the fact that Dr. Mario should be an alt because he is literally an alternate costume for Mario.

I love how many times you call Dr. Mario literally an alternate costume of Mario. With the word "literally" in italics every time.

If he has unique character traits, then he's not literally an alternate costume. I don't know why this bothers you so much that it's all you talk about. Just don't play as them.

 

[RandomAce]

I would like to see Dr. Mario have different specials and different basic attacks to make him more of a semi clone, since how much do you think Mario is going to change in Smash 5?

All I can really see is a special move being changed (most likely a move that can be pulled off from cappy) and maybe some nerfs and buffs to some of his other attacks but that's really it. In Super Mario Odyssey, Mario is mostly the same with the exception of the attacks he could pull off with cappy and maybe a different movement option and slight redesign.

 

[Zerp]

I love how many times you call Dr. Mario literally an alternate costume of Mario. With the word "literally" in italics every time.

If he has unique character traits, then he's not literally an alternate costume. I don't know why this bothers you so much that it's all you talk about. Just don't play as them.

Eh, I'm fine with Dr. Mario staying separate from Mario (and would be fine with a new moveset for him) but I can see their point, it really is Mario in a alternate costume,and it's true that they're literally the same character, yes, they have different slots, different movesets and end up playing differently because of that, but at the end of the day Dr. Mario IS Mario. It's kinda like how Zelda and Sheik are the same person, except that unlike Sheik Mario didn't transform or anything, he just put on a doctor's outfit lol.

 

[Starcutter]

Clones aren't bad. I'm not sure why the notion that clones are bad exists. It's just when there's too many clone characters that don't change enough, that's when it's a problem. Brawlout is a perfect example of this.


When they aren't even a tenth of the roster, they aren't too big of a deal. Of course, I'd personally like the clones to be altered in a substantial way, a way that doesn't make one of the characters irrelevant. Falcon and Ganondorf are what I would look for in a clone. They play completely different while having most of the same moves.

 

[APC99]

My stance on the three clones from Smash 3DS / Wii U is simple.

1. Give Lucina her own unique stance and animations, she can continue being an all-around swordfighter and mirror Marth's style of swordplay, but also incorporate some of her own flair into it, or take inspiration from Chrom. Tweak her specials to resemble other skills (Dancing Blade becomes the five-hit Astra, Shield Breaker dashes forward and becomes Luna Dash, Counter becomes Sol Counter, and Dolphin Slash becomes a new take on Aether).
2. Dark Pit just plays rougher, and is more rushdown than Pit's all-around gameplay. Less attacks with the dual blades, more elbowing, tripping, getting physical. Dark arrows deal more damage in close proximity, he can charge his Electroshock Dash to strengthen it, and his defensive reflector is replaced with a multi-hit claw dash.
3. Doctor Mario... just feel free to change around Mario and keep Doc the same, tbh. Give Doc a final smash that plays like an actual round of Dr. Mario, and change his victory theme, and I'm good. Doc's been around since Melee, I think by this point, he's fine.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I remember the time I dressed up as a doctor and suddenly lost the ability to use a hose.

...

Spoiler

The whole point is that he doesn't. Not that he can't.

at the end of the day Dr. Mario IS Mario. Mario didn't transform or anything, he just put on a doctor's outfit lol.

Where is the argument? You haven't explained why that's a bad thing,

Like, can we please just ban this discussion? I'm so sick of hearing it and people keep coming in and interrupting actually productive discussions with it.

We were actually talking about potential characters and now we're ******** about veterans again.

 

[Superyoshiom]

I love how many times you call Dr. Mario literally an alternate costume of Mario. With the word "literally" in italics every time.

If he has unique character traits, then he's not literally an alternate costume. I don't know why this bothers you so much that it's all you talk about. Just don't play as them.

It's redundancy on the roster. If Dark Pit was literally the same character as Pit I'd have the same issue, but he's established in his own franchise to be a different character. In a game all about unique characters, be they from Nintendo or third-party, we don't need to characters, just in different outfits. Way back before I knew anything about Zelda I had the same issue with Toon Link, before reading that besides aesthetically having different models, there are different Links for a larger timeline. If there was a source somewhere that stated that Dr. Mario is a completely different person than regular Mario, then having him on the roster is the same as having Metal Mario or Pink Gold Peach on the roster, difference being I tolerate Dr. Mario in Smash, I just find him unnecessary.

There's also something to be said about the fans of his alternate playstyle, as Sakurai has time and time again reworked characters for Smash Bros. Look at Sheik, who lost one of her special moves from Brawl and Melee, and fans had to readjust to a different playstyle. They managed to do this without making Impa a clone of sheik or doing something like making an OoT Shei and a Twilight Princess Sheik.

I don't know, I know Sakurai wants to pad out the roster but in a 50+ game there's really no reason to do that.

...

Spoiler

The whole point is that he doesn't. Not that he can't.

Where is the argument?

1) Dr. Mario can't use the spin moves in any of his games, so what's the issue of him using FLUDD
2) The argument is that they are literally the same person. In any other game, Mario Kart 8, for examples, these duplicate characters were an issue with people, save for if they are different ages like Baby Mario (can also be applied to Link and Young Link) in melee.

 

[eltacoenojado]

Dr. Mario is very different from Mario. He's slower, doesn't jump as high, his up b is not a multi hit, and his attacks are stronger (I believe)

Also capsules. I think he needs to stay separate.

 

[Zerp]

Where is the argument?

Not sure if I understand what you're saying, so sorry if this isn't what you're asking me, but there isn't a argument (or at least I don't think there is lol), I'm just saying that the statement "he is literally an alternate costume for Mario." isn't incorrect, he's still Mario in a different costume, having a different moveset and roster slot doesn't change that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not sure if I understand what you're saying, so sorry if this isn't what you're asking me, but there isn't a argument (or at least I don't think there is lol), I'm just saying that the statement "he is literally an alternate costume for Mario." isn't incorrect, he's still Mario in a different costume, having a different moveset and roster slot doesn't change that.

This.

He's a costume in Odyssey too. It's literally still Mario in another costume.

But it's also not an argument that really works in the context of Smash. Now if Dr. Mario could be 8 more costumes for Mario, play differently, and be recorded in the battle records uniquely, he'd be fine as an alternate gameplay costume.

But it doesn't work that way, and that's why he has his own slot.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I think Superyoshiom was just saying that the character itself (base character, not the Smash character) is literally Mario as a doctor. That's all. It's akin to how people hate Tanooki/Metal Mario and Cat/Pink Gold Peach in Mario Kart 8, they're basically the base character, just in a costume essentially. Anyway, I'm pretty adamant that I'd rather have Lucina and Dr. Mario stay and become semiclones while Dark Pit can leave. That character personally rubbed me the wrong way when he was revealed.

That being said, I do agree that clones are sort of unnecessary at this point with an almost 60 character roster. There's no reason to "pad" anymore with almost 55 characters who are for the most part distinct and unique.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Dr. Mario should stay separate and become de-cloned even further. Add the viruses into his moveset, etc, etc.

 

[Fenriraga]

Mario Tornado > Fludd any day.

Hopefully Fludd will be removed in favor of Cappy or something in the new game.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's redundancy on the roster.

It's not redundancy. It's variety. People like having multiple personas and variations of character. It provides more options and brings twists to familiar favorites.

In a game all about unique characters

It's not "all about unique characters". SSB has always relied on reusing source material to create new characters.

we don't need to characters, just in different outfits.

Yes we do.

having him on the roster is the same as having Metal Mario or Pink Gold Peach on the roster

Good. I like Metal Mario & Pink Gold Peach. And so do I lot of people. And that matters more than people who don't.

difference being I tolerate Dr. Mario in Smash, I just find him unnecessary.

Well other people do.

There's also something to be said about the fans of his alternate playstyle, as Sakurai has time and time again reworked characters for Smash Bros. Look at Sheik, who lost one of her special moves from Brawl and Melee, and fans had to readjust to a different playstyle. They managed to do this without making Impa a clone of sheik or doing something like making an OoT Shei and a Twilight Princess Sheik.

What are you even talking about at this point?

I don't know, I know Sakurai wants to pad out the roster but in a 50+ game there's really no reason to do that.

Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina were not added to pad out the roster.

What is this "We don't need this. That's not necessary"? Those aren't arguments.

1) Dr. Mario can't use the spin moves in any of his games, so what's the issue of him using FLUDD

That's a horrible argument. You should know why that's wrong. Dr. Mario is his own series a game separate from normal Mario.

The argument is that they are literally the same person.

So...

What???

In any other game, Mario Kart 8, for examples, these duplicate characters were an issue with people

Let me get my violin.

 

[Starcutter]

Man, I wish Zero Suit Samus was just a costume for Samus. Waste of a slot.

/s

 

[Deleted member]

I remember the time I dressed up as a doctor and suddenly lost the ability to use a hose.

I use my hose a little too much though.

Mario Tornado > Fludd any day.

Hopefully Fludd will be removed in favor of Cappy or something in the new game.

I kind of like F.L.U.D.D. Tornado is nice, but Dr. Mario already has tornado. It feels fresh with those two getting very separated down-b's.

 

[A Distant Demon]

The point of clones isnt just to "pad" the roster.


It also helps fans of those characters. Makes them feel special instead of just being an alt. Hence why some people were sad about Alph not being upgraded. I've said it time and again but clones make those fans happy without taking anything away from everyone else.

 

[HyperSomari64]

My wishes;
-Cappy as a Item or Assist Trophy
-Mario Tornado returns as Mario's Down Special
-CUT LUCINA!!!!!
-Story mode (Adventure Mode will be a separate mode)
-Put Characters like King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Rayman, Pyra, Bomberman, Shantae, Tails, & The Starship Tetra Tripulation from Puyo Puyo Tetris (I don't like Arle Nadja, because Tetris is more popular)

PD:Kill Me Please

 

[Starcutter]

If mario keeps FLUDD, I hope he hovers if he releases the charge midair. Does anyone actually ever use FLUDD in midair?

 

[TumblrFamous]

Good. I like Metal Mario & Pink Gold Peach. And so do I lot of people. And that matters more than people who don't.

I will just remind everyone of the absolute ****storm we witnessed during Mario Kart 8's roster reveal when Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach, and Baby Rosalina got into the main starting roster before Diddy, Bowser Jr., and even King Boo (not saying they "stole" their spots though). To say that so many people loved those characters and still do is a bit of a stretch.

Again, I am firm in that I like Dr. Mario, think he plays differently, and appreciate him on the roster, but it's not unlike the rage some people have for those Mario Kart 8 characters. I'd like to see the Doc further decloned, get less salt around his inclusion I guess.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

The point of clones isnt just to "pad" the roster.


It also helps fans of those characters. Makes them feel special instead of just being an alt. Hence why some people were sad about Alph not being upgraded. I've said it time and again but clones make those fans happy without taking anything away from everyone else.

^This

If people really think they are the victim and they should have their way when they want to remove characters people like because of their own selfish cynicism, then they deserve to have their tears made into a soft drink.

 

[TumblrFamous]

^This

If people really think they are the victim and they should have their way when they want to remove characters people like because of their own selfish cynicism, then they deserve to have their tears made into a soft drink.

Hey now, there's no need to come off with such strong language. We're all just having a conversation about how we feel about a particular clone (semiclone-ish?) character. This has nothing to do with self-victimization or cynicism.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I use my hose a little too much though.

If mario keeps FLUDD, I hope he hovers if he releases the charge midair. Does anyone actually ever use FLUDD in midair?

I tried it once, it didn't work well for me

 

[Pakky]

I get the fallacy of Dr. Mario vs Mario becasue we do indeed have multiple instances where the same person is on the roster twice. Zelda and Sheik, Samus and Zero Suit. However, I'm in favor of changing Dr. Mario nearly completely because he literally plays like an 'insert adjective here' Mario. Zelda is not Sheik ZSS is not Samus.

Dark Pit needs some guidance.

Lucina, I mean look man I don't know nothing about them FE fellas so... eh to that.

 

[Fenriraga]

The point of clones isnt just to "pad" the roster.


It also helps fans of those characters. Makes them feel special instead of just being an alt. Hence why some people were sad about Alph not being upgraded. I've said it time and again but clones make those fans happy without taking anything away from everyone else.

At the same time though, I feel like sometimes, clones undermine a character's value.

Lucina learned how to use a sword from Chrom. Chrom's sword style is pretty different from Marth's. (In fact, Lucina was a CHROM Clone in Warriors)

Uprising is a fantastic game with so much weapon variety, yet Dark Pit was given the same weapontypes and moves as Pit.

Young Link had his own game with a unique mask system and his own tools, yet he plays just like Adult Link.

Ganondorf... Needs no introduction.

Believe me, I agree with you, and I know full well why they weren't full-on newcomers, but it's not a completely one sided thing.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I will just remind everyone of the absolute ****storm we witnessed during Mario Kart 8's roster reveal when Metal Mario, Pink Gold Peach, and Baby Rosalina got into the main starting roster before Diddy, Bowser Jr., and even King Boo (not saying they "stole" their spots though). To say that so many people loved those characters and still do is a bit of a stretch.

Again, I am firm in that I like Dr. Mario, think he plays differently, and appreciate him on the roster, but it's not unlike the rage some people have for those Mario Kart 8 characters. I'd like to see the Doc further decloned, get less salt around his inclusion I guess.

The point I was making is that the people who like characters outweigh the people who don't. There are a lot of people who like Metal Mario & Metal Peach and definitely a lot who use them online.

So even if they are the minority, they matter more. Unless removing a character brings time to add a better one, then they aren't hurting anyone.

 

[Starcutter]

I can't really think of many other clones, but I could see a Peach clone of Daisy. All they would really need to do for it to make sense would be to change the neutral and down B. Also, make the heart and rainbow effects into flowers or something. I think that would be enough honestly. Probably different taunts and a different Final Smash too.

I can't really think of many others though. Maybe Dark Samus, but I think Dark Samus would be more of a Lucas than a Dr. Mario.

 

[N3ON]

^This

If people really think they are the victim and they should have their way when they want to remove characters people like because of their own selfish cynicism, then they deserve to have their tears made into a soft drink.

A rational response. Clearly you care the appropriate amount.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

So what are the possibilities of adding two new Pokemon in this game?

*hids behind the trees*

I don’t think they’re that high for the base game. If they add a Gen 8 newcomer in the base game, then they just won’t add a Gen 7 one, like how Gen 3 and 5 got screwed over in Brawl and Smash 4 respectively. I can’t see two Gen 7 Pokemon.

For the full game with DLC, I think it’s pretty likely. I see Decidueye or another Gen 7 Rep being in the base game, with a Gen 8 newcomer as DLC. Maybe it’d even be the first DLC newcomer, if Gen 8 does come out this winter.

But then again I’m just speculating about DLC for a game whose base content we know little to nothing about.