Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Radical Bones]

Watch Sakurai finally give us a Gen 3 Pokemon instead and then reveal that it's like Huntail or something.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Something I just started thinking about which could counter the arguments that Zeraora is coming along too late:

When Gamefreak/Pokemon company made gen 7, they surely had a schedule of events for the generation for the majority of it's lifespan. They didn't decide one day "Oh, we should add another legendary for generation 7!" and slap it into USUM. It at least existed when Sun and Moon came out. Zeraora is still part of gen 7. Perhaps they intentionally didn't put it in S/M because they knew they wanted to save it for USUM and this upcoming movie. When Sakurai approached them about Pokemon to add, this Pokemon existed, and PC/Gamefreak had to know about it and when they were going to reveal it, and that could have been a topic of discussion when deciding who to include. I don't necessarily agree with the aggressive attitude, but I do think Jinjo is right about the timing fitting perfectly for Zeraora, assuming he existed at least on paper, when gen 7 was launched.

 

[Deleted member]

Did Hawlucha ever show up in Pokken? Because if not that’s a crime and if should be fixed in Smash.

To be fair, Greninja didn't get in Pokken either, and Greninja was kind of a no-brainer for that.

 

[Danpal65]

To be fair, Greninja didn't get in Pokken either, and Greninja was kind of a no-brainer for that.

That may actually be the reason why they did not get into Pokkén, they wanted to showcase and explore some more out there Pokémon, like Aegislash and Chandelure.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Something I just started thinking about which could counter the arguments that Zeraora is coming along too late:

When Gamefreak/Pokemon company made gen 7, they surely had a schedule of events for the generation for the majority of it's lifespan. They didn't decide one day "Oh, we should add another legendary for generation 7!" and slap it into USUM. It at least existed when Sun and Moon came out. Zeraora is still part of gen 7. Perhaps they intentionally didn't put it in S/M because they knew they wanted to save it for USUM and this upcoming movie. When Sakurai approached them about Pokemon to add, this Pokemon existed, and PC/Gamefreak had to know about it and when they were going to reveal it, and that could have been a topic of discussion when deciding who to include. I don't necessarily agree with the aggressive attitude, but I do think Jinjo is right about the timing fitting perfectly for Zeraora, assuming he existed at least on paper, when gen 7 was launched.

Was I really being that aggressive? I mean I try to hold people's feet to the fire, but I've been more aggressive than that.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

To be fair, Greninja didn't get in Pokken either, and Greninja was kind of a no-brainer for that.

While I was expecting Greninja, it seemed that Pokken was really trying to hit those bizarre Pokemon that people didn't expect. And they did a damn fine job of it.

 

[Deleted member]

That may actually be the reason why they did not get into Pokkén, they wanted to showcase and explore some more out there Pokémon, like Aegislash and Chandelure.

We've had a healthy mix of "out there" and "no brainer" Pokémon, though.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Was I really being that aggressive? I mean I try to hold people's feet to the fire, but I've been more aggressive than that.

I've definitely seen you be more aggressive, but some parts of the argument did come across pretty strong.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I've definitely seen you be more aggressive, but some parts of the argument did come across pretty strong.

I was just mad that people kept comparing two situations that weren't equivalent. Three times in a row from three different users. Deoxys/Genesect & Zeraora. The former were a gen behind, the ladder is not.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I was just mad that people kept comparing two situations that weren't equivalent. Three times in a row. Deoxys/Genesect & Zeraora. The former was a gen behind, the ladder is right on.

I get wanting to correct people all the time, but it doesn't hurt to teach yourself to just ignore those posts after you've made a comment on the subject. I promise people read it, and there's no need to reiterate a point unless it's been obviously overlooked in a direct reply or something. And there's always a more calm-sounding way to make your points. I'm not asking you to necessarily change who you are, but maybe re-read your posts and try to reword them in a way that comes off less strong, and if you can't, then just ignore the post. No point in getting mad over this blind speculation.

 

[Danpal65]

Here's something that I don't think has been talked about recently. How would people like the menus in the this game to look? I know it has been pretty much universally agreed that Sm4sh had awful menus and nothing made any sense. Would you like it to return to something simpler and cleaner like Melee?

Personally I think that something like Melee with some of the colour and character of Sm4sh would be great. Especially if we get the ability to mess with the angle of the menu with the second control stick again.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Watch Sakurai finally give us a Gen 3 Pokemon instead and then reveal that it's like Huntail or something.

I’d rage if it was luvdisc.

 

[Danpal65]

I’d rage if it was luvdisc.

I think you mean celebrate

 

[blackghost]

That may actually be the reason why they did not get into Pokkén, they wanted to showcase and explore some more out there Pokémon, like Aegislash and Chandelure.

they did a great job with it too.these devs are far more creative than your average forum poster. im hoping smash 5 does well takes this route as well. i want some wtf characters.

 

[Polan]

Decidueye is still the best Pokemon choice and nothing will get me to waver from that opinion. It has a cool design, potential for an unique moveset and a cool typing that we haven't seen in Smash. Mimikyu and Bewear are Pokeball fodder. I would have been shouting from the mountaintops for Incineroar in Smash if it looked like this

Spoiler

but it doesn't so I'm not doing that. And I'm not too fond of Zeraora's design.

 

[Radical Bones]

Decidueye is still the best Pokemon choice and nothing will get me to waver from that opinion. It has a cool design, potential for an unique moveset and a cool typing that we haven't seen in Smash. Mimikyu and Bewear are Pokeball fodder. I would have been shouting from the mountaintops for Incineroar in Smash if it looked like this

Spoiler

but it doesn't so I'm not doing that. And I'm not too fond of Zeraora's design.

I'm not really sure if it is that unique as it's not like archers are a new concept in Smash Bros. I think that's why I like the idea of Mimikyu, a creepy ghost that attacks from under it's Disguise or Lycanroc, another four legged character which is fast and strong.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Here's something that I don't think has been talked about recently. How would people like the menus in the this game to look? I know it has been pretty much universally agreed that Sm4sh had awful menus and nothing made any sense. Would you like it to return to something simpler and cleaner like Melee?

Personally I think that something like Melee with some of the colour and character of Sm4sh would be great. Especially if we get the ability to mess with the angle of the menu with the second control stick again.

I feel Melee/64 had a really good design. It made it highly presentable and easy to work with. I'd like to still have actual pictures in the way Smash 4 did it, but as those icons looked nice. But still keep it the overall style of Melee/64 with the whole drop down menu-like appearance.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I made a Zeraora Moveset because why not?

Spoiler

Zeraora​

Zeraora, the newly revealed Mythic Pokemon joins the fight, utilizing its lightning-quick movements and electric abilities. Zeraora has the unique ability to charge up its special attacks to become even more potent.

Zeraora is a light character with exceptional mobility and many abilities with low end lag.

Jab: Zeraora viciously swipes jabs twice, then uses Fury Swipes as a rapid jab.

Dash Attack: Zeraora disappears into a bolt of lightning and blinks forward a few feet, hitting enemies in the path.

Forward Tilt: Zeraora punches forward. Hit the attack button again to follow up with a second swipe to launch opponents.

Up Tilt: Zeraora punches upward and has a small ball of electricity at its peak. The electricity is a sweetspot dealing bonus damage and knockback.

Down Tilt: Zeraora swipes twice at ground level in front of it.

Forward Smash: Zeraora coats it’s paws in electricty. It then slashes forward with its claws, striking twice. The first hit has a stun effect.

Up Smash: Zeraora uses Wild Charge, causing it to jump upward covered in electricity, striking all foes above.

Down Smash: Zeraora uses Shock Wave, letting out a wave of electricity on both sides.

Neutral Air: Zeraora swipes in front and behind.

Forward Air: Zeraora claps its paws together, letting out a wave of electricity.

Up Air: Zeraora slashes both claws upward, also granting mild upward momentum. Can help extend a recovery.

Back Air: Zeraora swipes behind itself. This turns Zeraora around to lead into other follow ups.

Down Air: Zeraora flips forward and kicks downward. The move has a sweetspot at the foot which has a meteor effect.

Neutral Special: Charge. Charge empowers the next special attack Zeraora uses. The properties vary from move to move. If Zeraora reuses charge while a charge is active, it discharges the energy in a circular space around Zeraora.

Side Special: Plasma Fists. Zeraora jumps forward extremely quickly. If it catches an opponent in the jump, Zeraora punches the opponent multiple times, finishing with a launching blow. Landing Plasma Fists grants Charged status.
*When Charged, Zeraora’s Plasma Fists have one extra strike, causing more damage, and launching with greater power. Landing charged Plasma Fists will cause the Charge to be retained.

Down Special: Thunder Wave. Zeraora emits a short-range wave of electricity that stuns opponents briefly. Squirtle’s Project M Bubblebeam is roughly what the hitbox looks like. The move also carries the same properties as Squirtle’s PM Bubblebeam in the air, where it is launched at a 45 degree angle downward.
*When Charged, The attack has double range.

Up Special: Thunderpunch. Zeraora uppercuts at breakneck speed with a hard-hitting Thunderpunch.
*When charged, Thunderpuch travels farther. If Zeraora is to make contact with an opponent, a large shockwave is released from the point of contact hitting other enemies in the immediate area and causing extra damage to the opponent.

EDIT: Rip I realized I forgot to add a back air.

 

[Deleted member]

Decidueye on the other hand has many pros:

-) Bigger role in the anime

Can someone please tell me WHY people keep saying this?



This is not a Decidueye. This is a Rowlet. It has the cabability to evolve into a Decidueye (after evolving into a Dartrix first), but it is not a Decidueye itself. It is a freakin' Rowlet.




....or do these count as an Empoleon and a Samurott and I'm just clueless?

 

[Danpal65]

I made a Zeraora Moveset because why not?

Spoiler

Zeraora​

Zeraora, the newly revealed Mythic Pokemon joins the fight, utilizing its lightning-quick movements and electric abilities. Zeraora has the unique ability to charge up its special attacks to become even more potent.

Zeraora is a light character with exceptional mobility and many abilities with low end lag.

Jab: Zeraora viciously swipes jabs twice, then uses Fury Swipes as a rapid jab.

Dash Attack: Zeraora disappears into a bolt of lightning and blinks forward a few feet, hitting enemies in the path.

Forward Tilt: Zeraora punches forward. Hit the attack button again to follow up with a second swipe to launch opponents.

Up Tilt: Zeraora punches upward and has a small ball of electricity at its peak. The electricity is a sweetspot dealing bonus damage and knockback.

Down Tilt: Zeraora swipes twice at ground level in front of it.

Forward Smash: Zeraora coats it’s paws in electricty. It then slashes forward with its claws, striking twice. The first hit has a stun effect.

Up Smash: Zeraora uses Wild Charge, causing it to jump upward covered in electricity, striking all foes above.

Down Smash: Zeraora uses Shock Wave, letting out a wave of electricity on both sides.

Neutral Air: Zeraora swipes in front and behind.

Forward Air: Zeraora claps its paws together, letting out a wave of electricity.

Up Air: Zeraora slashes both claws upward, also granting mild upward momentum. Can help extend a recovery.

Down Air: Zeraora flips forward and kicks downward. The move has a sweetspot at the foot which has a meteor effect.

Neutral Special: Charge. Charge empowers the next special attack Zeraora uses. The properties vary from move to move. If Zeraora reuses charge while a charge is active, it discharges the energy in a circular space around Zeraora.

Side Special: Plasma Fists. Zeraora jumps forward extremely quickly. If it catches an opponent in the jump, Zeraora punches the opponent multiple times, finishing with a launching blow. Landing Plasma Fists grants Charged status.
*When Charged, Zeraora’s Plasma Fists have one extra strike, causing more damage, and launching with greater power. Landing charged Plasma Fists will cause the Charge to be retained.

Down Special: Thunder Wave. Zeraora emits a short-range wave of electricity that stuns opponents briefly. Squirtle’s Project M Bubblebeam is roughly what the hitbox looks like. The move also carries the same properties as Squirtle’s PM Bubblebeam in the air, where it is launched at a 45 degree angle downward.
*When Charged, The attack has double range.

Up Special: Thunderpunch. Zeraora uppercuts at breakneck speed with a hard-hitting Thunderpunch.
*When charged, Thunderpuch travels farther. If Zeraora is to make contact with an opponent, a large shockwave is released from the point of contact hitting other enemies in the immediate area and causing extra damage to the opponent.

That is actually a really cool moveset. Definitely captures the ferocity that is conveyed through Zeraora's description.

I think a nice touch would be if Zeraora levitated when running, kinda like Cloud/Mewtwo since the websites description says that "Zeraora creates a powerful magnetic field by emitting strong electric currents from the pads on its hands and feet. It can use this magnetic field to levitate and move through the air at high speed."

Edit: Damnit Bradli now I want to see Zeraora in Smash more

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can someone please tell me WHY people keep saying this?



This is not a Decidueye. This is a Rowlet. It has the cabability to evolve into a Decidueye (after evolving into a Dartrix first), but it is not a Decidueye itself. It is a frreakin' Rowlet.




....or do these count as an Empoleon and a Samurott and I'm just clueless?

Thank you. Honestly, there is nothing to suggest the Ghostly Grass Owl is even going to have a role in the anime. Rowlet does. Sure, things could change, but the anime is hardly a good place to look for it. If we're looking at the anime in general, we have things like Torracat, Rowlet, Mimikyu, and the various Lycanroc versions. And that's ignoring the movies, which has far more options, like Incineroar and Marshadow.

It doesn't mean Deciduee can't happen, obviously. But it won't be because of the anime itself.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Hey guys, I'm trying to work on a fun moveset for Captain Toad(what a shock I know) and I've got most of his moves figured out but I'm stumped on the Final Smash.

I've narrowed it down to three options that I think would be pretty neat, but could a few of you vote on which idea you like most?

Captain Toad's Final Smash - Please vote!

Thanking you all in advance!

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

That is actually a really cool moveset. Definitely captures the ferocity that is conveyed through Zeraora's description.

I think a nice touch would be if Zeraora levitated when running, kinda like Cloud/Mewtwo since the websites description says that "Zeraora creates a powerful magnetic field by emitting strong electric currents from the pads on its hands and feet. It can use this magnetic field to levitate and move through the air at high speed."

Edit: Damnit Bradli now I want to see Zeraora in Smash more

I appreciate the compliments! I think the crazy thing was that this wasn't too hard to come up with. The specials were written on the wall, especially if you go look at its potential list of moves on Serebii/Bulbapedia. The real challenge was trying to make aerials interesting. I really like the idea of the charge mechanic, though. It was the first thing that came to mind when looking at his movelist (outside of finding some use for Plasma Fists, as that's his signature move).

EDIT: In retrospect, I can see how someone will find it too similar to Cloud's Limit. The main differences between the two are A) Charged Status does not improve Zeraora's stats like speed, weight, etc., and B) Charged Status comes faster but the change is overall less dramatic than Cloud's Limit.

 

[Danpal65]

I appreciate the compliments! I think the crazy thing was that this wasn't too hard to come up with. The specials were written on the wall, especially if you go look at its potential list of moves on Serebii/Bulbapedia. The real challenge was trying to make aerials interesting. I really like the idea of the charge mechanic, though. It was the first thing that came to mind when looking at his movelist (outside of finding some use for Plasma Fists, as that's his signature move).

That is one of the positive for Pokémon moveset designs, they have an actual move pool to pull from.

In regards to the charging mechanic it makes a lot of sense as Zeraora does not actually produce electricity itself, but builds up a charge and stores it for later use. Another weird fact from the Pokémon website.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

That is one of the positive for Pokémon moveset designs, they have an actual move pool to pull from.

In regards to the charging mechanic it makes a lot of sense as Zeraora does not actually produce electricity itself, but builds up a charge and stores it for later use. Another weird fact from the Pokémon website.

That's actually oddly convenient, as I hadn't even looked at the website yet. I just saw Charge in its movelist and thought "Wow, that could make a really fun and unique mechanic!" Thanks for having my back on that, Pokemon Company.

 

[Danpal65]

That's actually oddly convenient, as I hadn't even looked at the website yet. I just saw Charge in its movelist and thought "Wow, that could make a really fun and unique mechanic!" Thanks for having my back on that, Pokemon Company.

It's almost as if the moveset reflects the Pokémon

In response to you mentioning charge could feel similar to Cloud's limit you could make the act of charging be different. Since it is a neutral special you could make it so the player has to repeatedly press the B button the build up the charge metre instead of just waiting. Then, as part of the charge, Zeraora could have a small active hitbox around itself made up of electricity that would hurt anyone close to it every time you press B (probably with brief periods where the field is not active). That way opponents have to be a bit clever in approaching, possibly from above or with a projectile, to try and interrupt the charge without getting hurt.

Edit: Whoops, you did mention the active electric field around it.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

It's almost as if the moveset reflects the Pokémon

In response to you mentioning charge could feel similar to Cloud's limit you could make the act of charging be different. Since it is a neutral special you could make it so the player has to repeatedly press the B button the build up the charge metre instead of just waiting. Then, as part of the charge, Zeraora could have a small active hitbox around itself made up of electricity that would hurt anyone close to it every time you press B (probably with brief periods where the field is not active). That way opponents have to be a bit clever in approaching, possibly from above or with a projectile, to try and interrupt the charge without getting hurt.

It would be interesting if it had an active hitbox during the charge. Perhaps you rapidly press B to charge it and small bits of electricity pulsate each time you press B. They could be small and have low knockback so they aren't ridiculously tough to approach against for characters who don't have a ranged option.

 

[Danpal65]

It would be interesting if it had an active hitbox during the charge. Perhaps you rapidly press B to charge it and small bits of electricity pulsate each time you press B. They could be small and have low knockback so they aren't ridiculously tough to approach against for characters who don't have a ranged option.

That's what I was thinking. That way it is differentiated from Cloud's limit, unique to Zeraora and kinda makes sense with bits of electricity flying around everywhere.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

That's what I was thinking. That way it is differentiated from Cloud's limit, unique to Zeraora and kinda makes sense with bits of electricity flying around everywhere.

Now that we have that fleshed out, maybe we should email it to Sakurai

 

[Danpal65]

Now that we have that fleshed out, maybe we should email it to Sakurai

Do you want to draft the email or shall I? I'm thinking we should start with "Dearest Sakurai. You have probably heard of us form the Internet, but here is something new for you..."

Knowing Sakurai he probably would have been able to figure all that out, planned a moveset and Final Smash, plus drafted a series of palette swaps on Zeraora's name alone

 

[Superyoshiom]

What a Shakespearean tragedy. I mean Dr. Mario, ZS Samus, and Sheik are fan favorites...but, at what cost?

Dr. Mario isn't a fan-favorite character in Smash. He's a recognizable character, but not fan-favorite in the slightest. The only fan-favorite clones are Roy and Falco, both of which are much-less clonish now.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

beginnin to feel like this is a port now more than anything really new. gut feeling.

 

[Danpal65]

beginnin to feel like this is a port now more than anything really new. gut feeling.

Anything in particular got you feeling that way?

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Anything in particular got you feeling that way?

no news. no newcomers aside from inks. tournament already. less than a year from go time

this smells like a port the more i think on it. maybe port-plus, but i think we be gettin' smash 4 switch.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

no news. no newcomers aside from inks. tournament already. less than a year from go time

this smells like a port the more i think on it. maybe port-plus, but i think we be gettin' smash 4 switch.

Why not announce the game as a port from the start so as to not set up expectations that ultimately wouldn't be met?

We're still due for gameplay reveal at E3, and the game has been in development for years--the first time in a while where we didn't know about Smash the moment its development started. The fact that it's coming out this year has nothing to do with the scope of the game.

 

[Danpal65]

no news. no newcomers aside from inks. tournament already. less than a year from go time

this smells like a port the more i think on it. maybe port-plus, but i think we be gettin' smash 4 switch.

Well I guess with a couple of those things, the no news and only Inklings as newcomers at the moment, are kind of symptomatic of the same issue; we've been left in the dark in regards to Smash since its reveal. Hopefully we will get some more news soon, I think we will at least before E3.

We did have a tournament for Sm4sh at E3 the year that was released so i don't think that is too odd.

I can definitely see this game building heavily off of Sm4sh though, port it and use it as a base to build upon and add a whole bunch of new stuff. At the worst, sort of like Splatoon 2, but I think we will see a larger departure than that.


I think the thing that is contributing the most to feelings of this game being a port is that it was announced this year and is slated for release this year as well. Usually this would be a bad sign, but, as we have seen with many Switch games (Mario, Xenoblade, ARMS) Nintendo has made a goal of much shorter reveal to release periods. This would suggest that Smash has been in development for a decent period of time, at least as long as other entries.

This is not to say that you are wrong and it won't be a port, but in my opinion it seems more likely to be a new game.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Why not announce the game as a port from the start so as to not set up expectations that ultimately wouldn't be met?

We're still due for gameplay reveal at E3, and the game has been in development for years--the first time in a while where we didn't know about Smash the moment its development started. The fact that it's coming out this year has nothing to do with the scope of the game.

don't be doing ridley shadow-looking now, sometimes a boss is a boss.

more to the point why not announce it as a NEW game so interest builds instead of this weird limbo everyone's bein left in? also, sakurai ain't known for tight ships, brawl and 4 were leaky ****ing boats. that says to me it's a smaller team, which makes sense for a port.

 

[Jak_spoon]

don't be doing ridley shadow-looking now, sometimes a boss is a boss.

more to the point why not announce it as a NEW game so interest builds instead of this weird limbo everyone's bein left in? also, sakurai ain't known for tight ships, brawl and 4 were leaky ****ing boats. that says to me it's a smaller team, which makes sense for a port.

I feel like we’re getting a port that has a **** ton of “Sakurai padding” I’ve actually been loosing a lot of faith in the game day by day

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

You guys are really pessimistic. There is almost no reason for this game to be a Deluxe Port. It's had a full development cycle, they didn't declare it a port from the start, 2 of the 3 new things we've seen are new (BotW Link, Inklings), the logo is new, and more things I can't think of right now because it's 4:15am and I'm tired.

 

[DJ3DS]

Hold on, why are people giving Zeraora the time of the day? It was only announced yesterday, and suggesting Pokémon needs Smash to advertise it when it consistently outsells Smash seems kind of absurd to me.

I believe we will see another Pokémon but Zeraora seems to be an out there choice informed by nothing other than the fact it's the most recent Pokémon announced, which seems a silly reason when there are plenty of more popular and currently relevant Pokemon. On a personal level I'd also be more interested in seeing a new type rather than one that's already covered pretty well by the mascot of the entire series.