Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Sheik is in an awkward spot where she made sense as a transformation character in her debut but now she’s just a separate character that overshadows Zelda
And her having only appeared once makes her continued inclusion weird
If it were up to me i’d give Impa her moveset with some changes, but I know Sheik fans would riot

How does she overshadow a character she's nothing like?

 

[ColietheGoalie]

....then you don't want Decidueye.

Like I said, I'd be FINE with him, but if they want to go more off the map with the choice, I'm 100% down for that.

Plus he's a ghost archer, which is more interesting than a lot of the "I'm fuzzy and I punch things" designs that get pushed (Zeraora I'm looking at you now). Lucario already covers that nicely for Smash

 

[MrReyes96]

How does she overshadow a character she's nothing like?

I just mean in terms of viability and popularity in smash.

 

[Bowserlick]

The Sheikah are a recurring element in the Legend of Zelda series.

I'd say Sheik still makes sense as a Smash fighter.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Sheik literally is the last remainder of Ocarina of Time in Smash.

Removing her wouldn't just cause a ''Sheik fan riot."

It'd cause a gamer riot.

There's a reason why she remains in Smash despite being a character who has a very small chance of important roles in future games.

And that's because Ocarina of Time is on a whole other level of Nintendo history than any other Zelda game like it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pretty much this. If Captain Toad is in Smash, he'll be able to jump. Just like Link was able to jump despite not jumping besides the occasional hop in Ocarina of Time. To be true to character, they could make his jumping miserable.

Then just give him a decent recovery. I mean if he had a mine-cart side B similar to Wario's bike or Jr.'s side b, he'd have decent horizontal recovery.

Link can jump in more than one Zelda game. It's not a good comparison.

The Sonic swimming thing is somewhat similar, but it wasn't really relevant till later games when they decided to give other characters more differences. It didn't really define him in the same way.

Captain Toad's defining trait is definitely "no jumping", but I really like the idea of the trophy noting he has less in his backpack, justifying his weaker jumps. Seems honestly a lot better than trying to throw in animations for the jumps, which is a lot more work. Though the idea of a 4 time recovery isn't a bad one.

 

[N3ON]

The Sheikah are a recurring element in the Legend of Zelda series.

I'd say Sheik still makes sense as a Smash fighter.

That’s straight tokenism.

 

[MrReyes96]

Sheik literally is the last remainder of Ocarina of Time in Smash.

Removing her wouldn't just cause a ''Sheik fan riot."

It'd cause a gamer riot.

There's a reason why she remains in Smash despite being a character who has a very small chance of important roles in future games.

And that's because Ocarina of Time is on a whole other level of Nintendo history than any other Zelda game like it.

I think most ocarina of time fans would settle for ocarina of time costumes for the main 3 over Sheik returning, I don’t think it’s likely I just would rather have a more reoccurring member of the sheikah instead.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Look if they can make Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks look powerful and strong without her getting full ass nekkid and she still feels like her then ya'll can believe that Captain Toad will feel like himself in Smash even if he jumps around like a jumping bean.

 

[Bowserlick]

That’s straight tokenism.

Where's my gay token character? Yoshi?

 

[MrReyes96]

Why can’t they just give captain toad a jetpack and be done with it, they gave Samus jet heels ffs ​

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I think most ocarina of time fans would settle for ocarina of time costumes for the main 3 over Sheik returning, I don’t think it’s likely I just would rather have a more reoccurring member of the sheikah instead.

I think you'd be wrong.

Sheik is the TWIST of that game. It was a BIG deal that Zelda was Sheik back when that game came out. It's talked about as one of the main parts of that game's legacy.

She is easily the best means of representing that game there is because that game deserves more than ''Here have some costumes."

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Look if they can make Bayonetta's Wicked Weave attacks look powerful and strong without her getting full *** nekkid and she still feels like her then ya'll can believe that Captain Toad will feel like himself in Smash even if he jumps around like a jumping bean.

I mean I agree with that last statement, but what the hell does Captain Toad jumping have to do with Bayonetta being naked?!

 

[MrReyes96]

I think you'd be wrong.

Sheik is the TWIST of that game. It was a BIG deal that Zelda was Sheik back when that game came out. It's talked about as one of the main parts of that game's legacy.

She is easily the best means of representing that game there is because that game deserves more than ''Here have some costumes."

And when they were both one character it made sense and was fine, but now it’s just weird imo/ But I don’t even like that Dr. Mario is playable instead of a costume, it’s weird to mewhen the same character is on the roster twice.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I think you'd be wrong.

Sheik is the TWIST of that game. It was a BIG deal that Zelda was Sheik back when that game came out. It's talked about as one of the main parts of that game's legacy.

She is easily the best means of representing that game there is because that game deserves more than ''Here have some costumes."

It was the video game equivalent of Darth Vader being Luke's father.

I think most ocarina of time fans would settle for ocarina of time costumes for the main 3 over Sheik returning, I don’t think it’s likely I just would rather have a more reoccurring member of the sheikah instead.

Wow.

So, the idea that people would be happy with a super popular character being cut is outrageous.

Also, why is being reoccurring better than being popular. I mean Sheik IS Zelda. So even if she's not reoccurring, the character that she actually is, is.

 

[Starcutter]

I mean I agree with that last statement, but what the hell does Captain Toad jumping have to do with Bayonetta being naked?!

That both Bayonetta and the hypothetical Capitan Toad aren't 100% accurate to smash as they are in their own games

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mean I agree with that last statement, but what the hell does Captain Toad jumping have to do with Bayonetta being naked?!

It's the same concept. Bayonetta's attacks in her games are so strong because her hair is literally her suit, you see a whole lot more of her there to pull off things similar to what she does in Smash. It's a part of her gameplay elements.

Yet they toned that down. She feels like herself still.

Captain Toad not being able to jump is part of his gameplay elements, but legit not the thing his game's gameplay is about at all. It's about solving puzzles and going over obstacles to reach your goal. You have many tools at your hand to do this. Those tools are what's gonna make him feel like himself. Not ''I can't jump!"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why can’t they just give captain toad a jetpack and be done with it, they gave Samus jet heels ffs ​

...That's kind of a shoehorn. Samus herself wears a suit of armor normally. Zero Suit Samus is a spandex wearing super agile speedster. It fits entirely into her design to further be faster and more airborne.

I'm not against workarounds, but they still need to make remote sense. It's also trying too hard. They're just better off with the "lighten his backpack" or "multiple Up B uses" because both still work fine while at least staying in-tune with the character extremely well.

Obviously characters need to be adjusted to fit in Smash. But it can't escape their traits entirely, just modify them in a smart way.

Also, another thing about the Sonic comparison is that he can swim in Sonic X, though not well. It's not as defining in comparison(plus wasn't really a trait unique to him, just something that sometimes was exaggerated in media, but wasn't meant to be a focus or important part of his character. Now, him being afraid of water was an actual trait in the shows, and I don't know if it was in the comics. This was never really changed or modified, and kept intact). It's also actually irrelevant to Smash. Plus, he swims in the Olympic games too. Basically, for the most part, he often cannot swim, but this is definitely not a consistent trait of his. It's just "often used".

 

[Deleted member]

Decidueye is kind of a dork honestly, in the sense that it tries too hard to be cold sniper but it's facade gets broken on the occasion.

This is probably most blatant in Pokken Torunament.

I don't know, but to me anyway I never got the impression that Decidueye had the same "attitude".

Ah, but while it may be true that Decidueye is secretly a tryhard dork, the cool façade it poses would still be front and center, which would count towards the generalizations that the user is applying to the likes of Mewtwo, Lucario, Greninja, and Gen 7 options like Incineroar and Zeraora.

 

[RodNutTakin]

You know, I find it a tiny bit odd how I ususally avoid spoiler leaks in video games like the plague, yet I'm all ears to leaks regarding Smash Bros games.

Then again, it's not like Smash Bros. has a storyline or potential plot twists...

 

[TheLastJinjo]

And when they were both one character it made sense and was fine, but now it’s just weird imo/ But I don’t even like that Dr. Mario is playable instead of a costume, it’s weird to mewhen the same character is on the roster twice.

What a Shakespearean tragedy. I mean Dr. Mario, ZS Samus, and Sheik are fan favorites...but, at what cost?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You know, I find it a tiny bit odd how I ususally avoid spoiler leaks in video games like the plague, yet I'm all ears to leaks regarding Smash Bros games.

Then again, it's not like Smash Bros. has a storyline or potential plot twists...

Brawl aside anyway.

And it does have a story, just a simplistic one. Whole "figures" coming to life is pretty much the basic story otherwise.

 

[MrReyes96]

What a Shakespearean tragedy. I mean Dr. Mario, ZS Samus, and Sheik are fan favorites...but, at what cost?

At the cost of an aesthetically pleasing character selection screen

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

At the cost of an aesthetically pleasing character selection screen

I'd say it was more how a lot of character series were split apart than looking "eh". I thought 4's renders looked great on the CSS. The fact Fire Emblem is split in 3 places, not so much.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'd say it was more how a lot of character series were split apart than looking "eh". I thought 4's renders looked great on the CSS. The fact Fire Emblem is split in 3 places, not so much.

That's part a problem of the rest of the roster and how it's placed and partly because Sakurai had to turn into Oprah with Fire Emblem.

''And you get in! AND YOU GET IN! AND YOU GET IN! AND YOU CAN COME BACK! AND YOU CAN COME BACK! EVERYONE GETS TO COME BACK!"

 

[Bowserlick]

There are many Links and many Zeldas in Hyrule's history.

Having more than one of each is no big deal.

 

[APC99]

How does Toad have more potential? You haven't mentioned anything he can do.

1. There is no "can't jump" problem. You can recover without "jumping". You can animate a character jumping without him actually jumping. Captain Toad can just have an animation where he's abducted by Wingo or Flaptor in place of him jumping: https://www.technobuffalo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Captain-Toad-Treasure-Tracker-3.jpg
2. You mentioned plucking turnips, but if there's a version of Toad that's known for plucking and throwing turnips, it's Captain Toad.
3. I just can't stress how much Toad over Captain Toad is a bad idea. Captain Toad is an actual character with an actual personality. Nothing has changed for Toad so he isn't any more likely now than he ever was. Whereas Captain Toad is actually a significant character in the 2014-2016 era of Nintendo.
4. If you use the generic version of Toad, you forfeit his ability to appropriately reference Captain Toad. The only source of personality and source material to make Toad an interesting SSB fighter.
5. Captain Toad has plenty of source material. Infinitely more than Toad. Pick Axe, Turnips, Wingo, Headlamp, Small Toad, Cannon, Double Cherries, Keys, Other Toad Brigade Members,.

Captain Toad is just oozing with material for moves, taunts, stages, music, trophies, victory poses/themes, personality, references, and all of which are tied to a specific game. It's stuff that's actually original to him and not forced into a character that doesn't have it (Toad).
This is a character who's actually done something as of late worthy of notice. It is the golden opportunity to make Toad the best he can be as a Super Smash Bros fighter. To sell him short and make him a generic Toad, the same generic Toad that was used as a human shield, who people are so desperate to make a move set for that they give him Mario Kart items, is truly a slap in the face to both Toad and Super Smash Bros as well as the cast of the game.

And it's an even bigger slap in the face if you try to suggest that he have these things without being Captain Toad.

Let's just deconstruct every single argument here.

1. Smash, as a platform fighter, is heavily focused on movement and control over both ground and air, with jumping being an essential part of gameplay that allows players to enter the air, which makes up about half of a fight. To suggest removing an essential movement option, and limiting his aerial abilities to an Up Special, is asinine. Or alternatively, if you're suggesting that every time Toad jumps, a bird appears to carry him, that doesn't come off as clever or unique, it comes off as desperate to create a workaround.

2. Toad has been associated with plucking and throwing things since Super Mario Bros. 2. His first solo outing, Wario's Woods, also has him plucking and throwing things. Captain Toad is not special in that regard.

3. Captain Toad, as a character, is just the mainline Toad character in a new costume. It stings, but it's true. Same mushroom cap, same heroic demeanor, same role as "main Toad", it's the same character. Captain Toad is just their attempt at making it a bit more streamlined.

4. You don't "forfeit" moveset potential by changing one costume to another. By that logic, you shouldn't be able to use any of the Master weapons w/ Mega Man without changing colors. Or use any of the various Copy Abilities like Cutter / Hammer / Fighter without changing appearances as Kirby. Or using nearly any attack as the EarthBound boys without changing to a completely different party member.

5. Out of all the things you mentioned, the only ones that could remotely be considered for Cpt. Toad would be turnips, the pick axe, double cherries, maybe the cannon, and the Toad Brigade as a Final Smash. Wingo is a humongous boss that would be the equivalent of having Samus' recovery involve Ridley, the headlamp is a stretch, keys are just REALLY scratching the bottom of the barrel... and Small Toad? Really? The depowered, vulnerable, "about-to-die" form is considered a plus in favor of his addition? What moveset potential does getting hit and shrinking possibly have?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Captain Toad in Smash. But this argument isn't sound. Instead of making workarounds like "birds carry him when he jumps" or "he uses pivotal items like keys", why not let him take inspiration from the literal years of Toad characters and just use the abilities from SMB2 / Wario's Woods / etc? And also, why not translate the "can't jump" as horrible vertical recovery? Maybe he can jump just a little, but his backpack's so heavy he fastfalls? Or maybe, he can take the backpack on and off to store items in the pack, or allow him better recovery? Trade off mobility for an expanded kit?

 

[MrReyes96]

There are many Links and many Zeldas in Hyrule's history.

Having more than one of each is no big deal.

I think if breath of the wild Zelda is the default I’ll be fine with Sheik, I’m just hoping there’s room for another sheikah warrior on the roster

 

[Deleted member]

Like I said, I'd be FINE with him, but if they want to go more off the map with the choice, I'm 100% down for that.

Plus he's a ghost archer, which is more interesting than a lot of the "I'm fuzzy and I punch things" designs that get pushed (Zeraora I'm looking at you now). Lucario already covers that nicely for Smash

For each design you criticize as being "I'm fuzzy and I punch things", you completely miss out on what makes the Pokémon special.

Zeraora for example is nothing like Lucario.
Lucario fights by utilizing martial arts imbued with Aura energy (and ironically, doesn't throw a single punch in Smash; only palm strikes). Zeraora zips around like a bolt of lightning and rips opponents to shreds with its electrified claws like a feral beast.

Same with the likes of Incineroar. It's a brutish grappler that utilizes wrestling techniques. Something not seen in Smash yet, let alone among the Pokémon. And the grappler archetype is a common one in fighting games that hasn't been featured in Smash yet.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

At the cost of an aesthetically pleasing character selection screen

Dr. Mario with fireballs and fludd is way more weird and offensive and distracting than a character you don't like and don't have to play as on a character select screen.

I mean I SORT OF get it. I'm a maniac for irrational stuff like that. I'll be like "How come Kirby isn't next to Meta Knight. They should be arranged in order of size and proportions!"

But, to honestly suggest that you'd rather have an interesting variation of a character demoted and cheapened and portrayed inaccurately in such an offensive way that would be even more weird than the alternative, truly grinds my gears.

Like it's the most "who cares" thing I've ever heard of. Especially relating to something that's very important to me. Dr. Mario being a separate character is very important to me.

How about this. Would this make you feel better.

Spoiler

 

[Pakky]

Dr. Mario with fireballs and fludd is way more weird and offensive and distracting than a character you don't like and don't have to play as on a character select screen.

I mean I SORT OF get it. I'm a maniac for irrational stuff like that. I'll be like "How come Kirby isn't next to Meta Knight. They should be arranged in order of size and proportions!"

But, to honestly suggest that you'd rather have an interesting variation of a character demoted and cheapened and portrayed inaccurately in such an offensive way that would be even more weird than the alternative, truly grinds my gears.

Like it's the most "who cares" thing I've ever heard of. Especially relating to something that's very important to me. Dr. Mario being a separate character is very important to me.

How about this. Would this make you feel better.

Spoiler

View attachment 141113


View attachment 141114

Why Pichu?

 

[MrReyes96]

Dr. Mario with fireballs and fludd is way more weird and offensive and distracting than a character you don't like and don't have to play as on a character select screen.

I mean I SORT OF get it. I'm a maniac for irrational stuff like that. I'll be like "How come Kirby isn't next to Meta Knight. They should be arranged in order of size and proportions!"

But, to honestly suggest that you'd rather have an interesting variation of a character demoted and cheapened and portrayed inaccurately in such an offensive way that would be even more weird than the alternative, truly grinds my gears.

Like it's the most "who cares" thing I've ever heard of. Especially relating to something that's very important to me. Dr. Mario being a separate character is very important to me.

How about this. Would this make you feel better.

Spoiler

View attachment 141113


View attachment 141114

Maybe just an option to choose when you select the character?
Also if Sheik isn’t getting cut I’d want Impa to be completely unique not a costume

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Maybe just an option to choose when you select the character?
Also if Sheik isn’t getting cut I’d want Impa to Ben completely unique not a costume

She's not a costume. I feel dirty that you thought I was suggesting clones become costumes.

 

[APC99]

For each design you criticize as being "I'm fuzzy and I punch things", you completely miss out on what makes the Pokémon special.

Zeraora for example is nothing like Lucario.
Lucario fights by utilizing martial arts imbued with Aura energy (and ironically, doesn't throw a single punch in Smash; only palm strikes). Zeraora zips around like a bolt of lightning and rips opponents to shreds with its electrified claws like a feral beast.

Same with the likes of Incineroar. It's a brutish grappler that utilizes wrestling techniques. Something not seen in Smash yet, let alone among the Pokémon. And the grappler archetype is a common one in fighting games that hasn't been featured in Smash yet.

The thing with Zeraora for me is that it just doesn't stand out visually in the same way Decidueye would. While we really don't have a "feral" character like Zeraora, and a move like Plasma Fists could turn out fairly interesting, assuming that we'd be limited to one new Pokemon, Decidueye has a lot more going for him imo.

As for Incineroar, I think he'd be an incredibly interesting choice... if not for the fact that we've already got one fire-based grappling heel in Smash in the form of Bowser. Yeah, Bowser's not a full grappler like Incineroar could be, but there's no doubt they fill similar niches.

And when they were both one character it made sense and was fine, but now it’s just weird imo/ But I don’t even like that Dr. Mario is playable instead of a costume, it’s weird to mewhen the same character is on the roster twice.

That just feels kind of nitpicky, especially since it's two completely different playstyles in the case of Sheik and Zero Suit. At the end of the day, the CSS is just that, a selection screen, and shouldn't really impact the roster choices imo. Cutting a character or relegating them to a costume because it'd make a menu look off would be the last of my worries.

 

[MrReyes96]

She's not a costume. I feel dirty that you thought I was suggesting clones become costumes.

I wouldn’t want her to be a clone either
She has plenty to pull from with skyward sword/hyrule warriors/botw
Same as Dark Pit and Lucina, i’d Rather they get decloned enough to not be considered one, like Luigi or Falco

 

[Pakky]

Why are people so sure about the Owl when the Tiger is way more advertised and 7th gen's end could have been in the wings to end long before the public knew.

I mean USUM is just a reuse of assets for the most part.
I can't believe Sakurai hasn't seen ANYTHING from 8th gen it just makes no sense to advertise the old tech of the 3DS when the new Switch game is literally right around the corner.

Given that 7th gen is over like this summer (Or in a week or so game wise maybe) 8th gen is coming E3 or at least this summer with a release this fall/winter.

 

[MrReyes96]

Why are people so sure about the owl when the Tiger is way more advertised and 7th gen could have been in the wings to end long before the public knew.

I mean USUM is just a reuse of assets for the most part.
I can't believe Sakurai hasn't seen ANYTHING from 8th gen it just makes no sense to advertise the old tech of the 3DS when the new switch game is literally right around the corner.

Because I’m tired of all these GOSH DARN FIRE TYPES
Game freak has a fire type bias, water and grass need more representation

 

[TheLastJinjo]

How has nobody even mentioned Zeraora? I figured that'd be the hot topic of the day.
EDIT: Sorry for calling him Zeroark. I'm drunk.

 

[MrReyes96]

How has nobody even mentioned Zeraora? I figured that'd be the hot topic of the day.

I’ve seen it mentioned today, but I’m guessing not as much because
1. We already have an electric type Pokémon in smash
2. We already have our bi-pedal cool guy Pokémon in smash
3. Everyone expects decidueye instead

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I’ve seen it mentioned today, but I’m guessing not as much because
1. We already have an electric type Pokémon in smash
2. We already have our bi-pedal cool guy Pokémon in smash
3. Everyone expects decidueye instead

Those are all legitimate grievances, but this is clearly the Pokemon GameFreak is going to wanna push. It's perfect timing giving Smash's 2018 release.

I don't really care anymore just cuz he's a cool Pokemon. As long as we have Pikachu and Jigglypuff, there's a satisfying supply of cutesy Pokemon for me. Add as many bi-pedal cool guys that you want.