Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[92MilesPrower]

Somebody's gonna be using a rifle in Smash Switch, likely a newcomer rather than anything else. Why would he get a model for mostly the rifle for a reference? He very likely wants it to be accurate wherever it appears, and he'd put more detail into it for a playable character rather than just an Assist Trophy or anything else.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Somebody's gonna be using a rifle in Smash Switch, likely a newcomer rather than anything else. Why would he get a model for mostly the rifle for a reference? He very likely wants it to be accurate wherever it appears, and he'd put more detail into it for a playable character rather than just an Assist Trophy or anything else.

It also kinda brings more questions to his previous rules on guns.

 

[Lyndis_]

I've heard Custom Robo as the most popular theory.

Maybe one of the Rays being upgraded from a trophy to a playable character?

I've also heard (Advance) Wars a few times.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I honestly think Elma (or another Xenoblade X character) is much more likely than Rex/Pyra. The timing matches up much better for Smash Switch's development and I don't see why they'd skip over X for 2 regardless. The game has sold better in Japan than X, but not by a huge amount by any means AAIK.

On an unrelated note, and I'm sure it's been discussed here (just with me missing it at all) what do people think about Sakurai needing a Mecha Rifle to reference for his 'current project' at the time? This was as of December 26th, 2016, right near the beginning of 2017. Is it likely related to Smash? If so, what does it imply?

I think the answer might tie into your first point. I was watching the Source Gaming video on when this game began development and they brought up the theory that the rifle could have been used as reference for Elma's mech, which would be a likely Final Smash for her.

 

[DraginHikari]

It also kinda brings more questions to his previous rules on guns.

I'm pretty sure it was simply realistic guns he tends to avoid. It's why Snake was given explosive weapons rather then direct guns.

 

[92MilesPrower]

I've heard Custom Robo as the most popular theory.

Maybe one of the Rays being upgraded from a trophy to a playable character?

I've also heard (Advance) Wars a few times.

At this point it's likely either Ray will be in the game in some form with an accurate looking mecha rifle rather than those arm cannon things, or Elma or someone else from XCX with a mech that wields a rifle.

 

[Cosmic77]

Based off this timeline, I think the implication is that Sakurai was already working on Smash Switch by November which would further imply the roster may have been finalized long before that. I think it's more likely the roster was already thought up around early 2016. Regardless of when the roster was finalized, Xenoblade 2's success would not factor into roster decision as it released long after the roster was likely finalized.

Even if what that timeline implies is 100% correct and Smash Switch started development long before November 2016, that still doesn't explain why a game that has all the available resources from Smash Wii U is taking just as long to create (about two and a half years) as it did to make TWO versions of Smash that basically had to be made from scratch on two completely different systems.

There's only three explanations for this. The first is that Sakurai and the development team are taking their sweet time to make this game, and that seems very unlikely since Nintendo has been consistently trying to pump out good games for the Switch. The second is that the development team is much MUCH smaller than what it was for Smash 4. A reasonable assumption, but it still shouldn't take over two years to make Smash Switch if you're focusing on only one game this time and porting over most of the material from Smash Wii U. The third is that this game is continually getting new content added throughout development. I think this is the most likely scenario. If this was originally going to be a straight-up port with minor additions, but the idea was scrapped in favor of a brand new game, then the development team may have started adding lots of new content, and that could've happened at any given time during development.


Even though development started before the XC2 was revealed, I still stand with my assumption that Rex/Pyra are the Xenoblade reps. Just like with Greninja (and I guess technically Corrin too), Sakurai didn't need to know if the game the character came from would end up being well-received or a huge success. The character was going to appear in an upcoming game, and that was enough for Sakurai to think it deserved to get in over someone older.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Apparently Xenoblade Chronicles 2 started preliminary work in late 2014.

I’ve been told Push wasn’t aware of that when the Source Gaming video was made.

 

[Gestahl]

I kinda hope they add the whole gang from FF7: Barret Tifa Aeris and Terra. So much win!

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I kinda hope they add the whole gang from FF7: Barret Tifa Aeris and Terra. So much win!

Uhhh...Terra is Final Fantasy 6

Tifa and Aerith are iconic enough to be at least an assist trophy for Cloud though.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So going by Cosmic77 ‘s theory, would Sakurai take the Nintendo NX release schedule into heavy account into including a new Xenoblade character like Rex/Pyra? Would such a factor make Sakurai convinced to choose Rex over Elma? It does not feel like a decision that Sakurai would do, in terms of picking one over the other. Both provide really interesting play styles to get in, and I think gameplay would be the biggest factor into including both.

 

[MrReyes96]

Honestly it might be too soon for characters like springman and Rex/pyra. They’ll either be in the base roster or be prime candidates for dlc. And considering how long nintendo wants the switch to last and how big smash bro is, I think we’ll be getting a healthy amount of dlc down the road. Hopefully with a focus on Nintendo characters this time.

 

[Lyndis_]

On the topic of DLC, I just want more of it.

Not even just characters, but the amount of stages was a little underwhelming in the DLC.

We got 3 existing stages from older games, and 4 new ones. I'd love to see them expand on all the DLC, maybe even give us a Splatoon 2 style support where they continually update the game with new content for however long aside from real DLC expansions (maybe new modes?)

I have to admit, I'm a bit biased since I don't enjoy most of the DLC stages (DL64, Hyrule Castle, and Pirate Ship are the only ones I actually found to be fun stages. Mario Maker can be but usually isn't), but still. I'd love more of it!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

DLC Stages could've easily been more robust. Where's mah Saffron City? Fourside? Brinstar Depths? Metal Cavern(that stage needs a remake, and not just barely in spirit either, as some stage have a single platform up above, but an updated design).

 

[Wyoming]

Metal Cave would be an interesting stage choice, actually.

I don't like Fourside all that much I just want its music back.
Saffron City was fun but I'm not sure if how much more chaotic casual Smash has gotten would work on that stage. I'll still take it, of course.

Brinstar Depths should remain in the depths of deletion. Frigate Orpheon, on the other hand...

I agree that we should have more variety in retro stages. Temple, Jungle Japes, Onett and Yoshi's Island keep coming back when there's really no need to keep them around all the time. Great Bay, Melee's Kongo Jungle, Fourside, and Yoshis Story from their respective franchises alone would offer some diversity!

 

[Baskerville]

I'm more disappointed that the 64 stages didn't get any kind of visual upgrade. Imagine an updated version of Peach's Castle, Kongo Jungle and Hyrule Castle.

DLC Stages could've easily been more robust. Where's mah Saffron City? Fourside? Brinstar Depths? Metal Cavern(that stage needs a remake, and not just barely in spirit either, as some stage have a single platform up above, but an updated design).

Metal Cavern is my most wanted stage from older games along with Fountain of Dreams. A perfect Classic Mode stage to fight Metal characters again, as well as a perfect legal stage. Metal fights are the second hype part of Melee's adventure mode.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

Regarding a playable character from Xenoblade X, this is what Tetsuya Takahashi (executive producer of Xenoblade series and head of Monolith Soft) had to say on the idea:

GamesBeat: We’ve had Shulk in Smash Bros. That must be a neat thing to see. Now we know Nintendo is doing downloadable content for Smash Bros. Would you like to see Xenoblade Chronicles X characters in Smash as well?

Takahashi: I’m not entirely sure, but you could always ask Mr. Sakurai about that. [laughs]

Source: VentureBeat

- - - - -

Here is another interview, this time with a Treehouse member (in charge of the localization)

GR: Are you hoping that maybe some of these characters crossover into Super Smash Bros. or anything like that?

Boggs: “I’m always down for new characters to be in Smash! I would love for more representation of any type of Monolith games that we’ve had. Yeah, to have Elma or something like that in the game would be great, but that’s all up to Sakurai and the wonderful magic that he works and the craziness. I’m with you guys though, the more the better.”

Source: Gamerant

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Honestly, I do not know much of the Final Fantasy series, and I hope that does not scare you from what I'm about to say, so listen up;

I could see the potential negotiation being intended to be for Geno, in the first place.

We know that Sakurai has been wanting Geno ever since Brawl, but for some reason or another it has never come to be. We got Snake, and we got Sonic, who delayed the final product, but it was the introduction to third parties in Smash.

Then comes Smash 4, and other companies took notice of this, and asked (some even begged) for their characters to be in the game. Not only fans themselves, but the companies. Capcom: Mega Man (from the start) and Ryu for DLC. Platinum: Bayonetta through the Ballot. Bamco: Pac-Man (from the start), and this would be the second time Square would have been contacted by Sakurai, with another attempt at something regarding, perhaps Geno?

Square, knowing this, seeing how other companies benefitted from having a character that "sells" being in the Nintendo party fighter could have been a good idea. It seems at that point that if they were going to agree to let any of their property even get into the Nintendo game, it would be a character that sells.

Square knowing that they are working on the FF7 Remake would most likely rather have Cloud (or at LEAST a Final Fantasy property) get into the game instead of a one-game-appearence blue wooden doll they never touched again. Still, by negotiation, Sakurai not only finally managed to get Geno in Smash (this time just as a Mii costume, but LEGIT GENO content in Smash), while also with intention (or not), making Link VS Cloud fans very happy. I know a lot of people got happy about Final Fantasy being in Smash. It's a series that sells, and Square knew this.

Now, with the next game. I'm sure Square have seen that Cloud in Smash was great, and that perhaps, yes, perhaps this time Geno would be coming inn a playable form, as the DLC for Cloud was a success.

For, if Geno were to be in Smash, it would have to be on the base game. Would Geno sell as much as Cloud? Or any other Final Fantasy protagonist? Who knows, it would have been an unsafe gamble by Square, and therefore letting Sakurai use it as a Mii costume to test if Geno still holds any water with fans of Nintendo.

Not only do I think Cloud will be coming back, but I believe this will be the best, and perhaps only stable chance Geno will have to make comeback.

But hey, that's just a theory, a SMASH THEORY ...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Even if what that timeline implies is 100% correct and Smash Switch started development long before November 2016, that still doesn't explain why a game that has all the available resources from Smash Wii U is taking just as long to create (about two and a half years) as it did to make TWO versions of Smash that basically had to be made from scratch on two completely different systems.

The time between the hypothetical beginning of Smash Switch development and release somewhere in late 2018 (if that is the case) is on par with the time between when Brawl was started on (somewhere around mid-2005 to October) and when it was intended to be released in December 2007.

 

[New_Dumal]

Bringing a crazy possibility...
What if Sakurai is not the one who decided the roster for this game?

Do you think that Nintendo approach would be different?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Cloud was who Sakurai went to Square for. Not Geno. He specifically talks about how many people would request Cloud when talking about FF for the series.

Sakurai: This isn’t an exact number, but among the requests for a Final Fantasy character to appear in Smash, around ¼ to ⅓ of the requests we got from fans were for Cloud. [TN1] I really wanted to answer the desires of those fans, and even though I thought it would be impossible, I reached out anyway, just to try.

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/01/20/sakurai-x-nomura-creator-interview-2016-part-one/

 

[Cosmic77]

The time between the hypothetical beginning of Smash Switch development and release somewhere in late 2018 (if that is the case) is on par with the time between when Brawl was started on (somewhere around mid-2005 to October) and when it was intended to be released in December 2007.

But again, this is the first time Sakurai could port over virtually everything from the previous Smash game, make minor tweaks, and pass it off as completely new. The jump between Melee and Brawl is incomparable in nearly every department when compared to the jump we'll see with Smash Wii U and Smash Switch. Graphics, mechanics, stages - none of those could be directly ported from Melee without serious issues. With Smash Wii U however, it can.

Unless he's determined to make things harder for himself and create almost everything from scratch, Sakurai shouldn't have a difficult time making this new Smash game.

Bringing a crazy possibility...
What if Sakurai is not the one who decided the roster for this game?

Do you think that Nintendo approach would be different?

Absolutely. Knowing Nintendo, they'd probably put an even heavier emphasis on promotional characters. I'm also sure they wouldn't be as generous and understanding with the number of cuts as Sakurai would be.

 

[UserKev]

Honestly it might be too soon for characters like springman and Rex/pyra. They’ll either be in the base roster or be prime candidates for dlc. And considering how long nintendo wants the switch to last and how big smash bro is, I think we’ll be getting a healthy amount of dlc down the road. Hopefully with a focus on Nintendo characters this time.

Its definitely not too soon for an ARMS rep. We seen things happened with Roy and Greninja. As much as its suckish, Smash is about advertisement. I agree with Rex/Pyra though. They just came outta no where. Like, who the hell are these characters?

 

[Opossum]

My heart says Sakurai bought that figurine to use as a reference for how Henry Fleming might use his Eagle Rifle as a Smash newcomer.

Meanwhile my brain says "lol no."

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Its definitely not too soon for an ARMS rep. We seen things happened with Roy and Greninja. As much as its suckish, Smash is about advertisement. I agree with Rex/Pyra though. They just came outta no where. Like, who the hell are these characters?

False analogy. Roy was a last minute clone addition who was only considered when the project plan was complete for Melee and Sakurai had extra time to add a couple of clones.

There is also the fact that Olimar was rejected for Melee despite Sakurai knowing about him in advance because of how new he and his franchise was. There is no guarantee that Sakurai would want an ARMS character. In fact no newcomer character at this point is a guarantee.

Bringing a crazy possibility...
What if Sakurai is not the one who decided the roster for this game?

Doubt it. If Nintendo execs didn't interfere with the base roster for Smash 4, why would they do it now,especially with a veteran developer they trust like Sakurai? Especially as we wouldn't have had half the characters in Smash 4 that we do now.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

List of franchises that got two non-clone newcomers in the base roster for a Smash game:

• Mario: ,
  
• Pokemon:
• Zelda:
• Kirby:

And then we have the Miis

As you said, not that unusual, but not that common.

Does Fire Emblem not count?

/

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Let's all just hope that the DLC remains optional. The last thing we need is another EA copycat.

 

[Opossum]

Does Fire Emblem not count?

/

They specified base roster.

 

[MrReyes96]

Its definitely not too soon for an ARMS rep. We seen things happened with Roy and Greninja. As much as its suckish, Smash is about advertisement. I agree with Rex/Pyra though. They just came outta no where. Like, who the hell are these characters?

Believe me I want an ARMS character as much as anyone else I just don’t think it’s as much of a lock as we previously thought.
I think as far as xenoblade, Elma is more likely because of the timing of XBX’s release

 

[BluePikmin11]

So no one has answered my Nintendo NX XC2 question yet huh. I think it's an important question to answer.

On another note, if Elma gets chosen and ends up getting her newcomer trailer made, it is gonna be kinda awkward, cause most consumers would expect Rex and be somewhat salty on Elma's inclusion. Unless both get in, and the newcomer trailer emphasizes Rex/Pyra with Elma slipping in later in the trailer.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't think we'll see both Elma and Rex in the new Smash, honestly. If anything, we'll see Elma on the base roster without Rex as DLC, or Rex as DLC without Elma on the base roster. I could be wrong, and we'll see all three, but I really don't see it.

Timing for the base roster heavily favors Elma, but whether she actually got in or not is if Sakurai saw potential in her, which is possible. One interesting thing that was talked about on SourceGaming was that Sakurai mentioned using a model rifle as a point of reference. There are several characters he could be using the rifle as a reference for, such as an altered moveset for an existing character, Ray from Custom Robo, or Elma. However, I think she's too far gone to be considered for DLC.

As for Rex, I think Xenoblade 2 probably showed up too late in Smash Switch's development to really be considered. It's possible, but I really don't see it. I think the best chance we have at seeing Rex is with DLC, as his game is still considered relevant, and he's even had some cross-promotion seen in Breath of the Wild.

Oh my gosh, he did have a rifle figure, didn't he?

That's... kinda huge actually. We know he uses those for modeling poses and there's no point in having a rifle figure if the character doesn't use one.

That could be huge for Elma.

Quick, does anyone have a picture of the rifle?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Elma is known for having dual guns and dual swords, so I don't know if Elma is really related to that unless it is for the Skell as Elma's Final Smash. I like to think that Sakurai used the rifle for reference to Inkling's ink gun, which moreso resembles the rifle Sakurai could be using for Smash Switch.

If he did want to use the rifle for Elma specifically, he would have gotten the Skell figure that came out way back in August 2016, which was before Sakurai talked about getting a Vifan figure in December 2016.

 

[Bebe Mignon]

Oh my gosh, he did have a rifle figure, didn't he?

That's... kinda huge actually. We know he uses those for modeling poses and there's no point in having a rifle figure if the character doesn't use one.

That could be huge for Elma.

Quick, does anyone have a picture of the rifle?

Doesn't look similar to Elma's gun, tbh.

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: Criminally insane prediction

What if the figure Sakurai bought has nothing to do with any Smash newcomer or character, because what he's working on isn't Super Smash Bros.? He could be directing another game (Kid Icarus? With an even edgier Dark Pit staff?) and stay in the spotlight as the public face of Smash while really only being there for PR purposes.

 

[BluePikmin11]

What if the rifle was used for Dark Pit's staff to make D-Pit more of a semi-clone? Though that does not really make any sense TBH given that Sakurai owns a figure of Dark Pit with the staff anyway back in 2012. lol

 

[Baskerville]

Oh my gosh, he did have a rifle figure, didn't he?

That's... kinda huge actually. We know he uses those for modeling poses and there's no point in having a rifle figure if the character doesn't use one.

That could be huge for Elma.

Quick, does anyone have a picture of the rifle?

Part of me thinks it was just for Inklings. Maybe the Splat Charger is part of their moveset?

 

[MrReyes96]

KID ICARUS UPRISING 2 LETS GO BAYBEE

best 3DS game, most underrated Nintendo game of the last decade, Sakurai’s crowning achievement

Let’s get either Viridi/Medusa/Hades in smash while we’re at it

 

[The Original Robot boy]

DLC Stages could've easily been more robust. Where's mah Saffron City? Fourside? Brinstar Depths? Metal Cavern(that stage needs a remake, and not just barely in spirit either, as some stage have a single platform up above, but an updated design).

Oh man i miss Brinstar Depths and Fourside those bring me back

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Gotta say, Zeraora is really interesting. I'm lenient on the idea of having two electric types, but he's such a cool Pokemon that I don't really care. I'll be more than happy to see him playable. And apparently a lot of his abilities are magnetic abilities that let him do things like levitate.

These Pokemon movies are so beautiful, I decided to go back and watch Indigo League. I was obsessed with Pokemon as a kid, but I never had access the show like I do now. I could only watch what episode was playing on TV.

The show is hilarious and I adore it. Same with "Kirby: Right Back At Ya!" Which I only had a DVD case of as a kid with maybe the first three episodes. These shows are brilliant.

For Kirby, though, I alternate between Japanese and English. It depends on how censored the episode is and what characters are in it. If I know Tikori or Waddle Doo are in it, I try to watch the Japanese version, because their voices are atrocious in the English dub, as apposed to the Japanese voices which are adorable.

 

[CrowGoesCaw]

Doesn't look similar to Elma's gun, tbh.

Pretty sure they were referring to her Skell's gun. Like she'd use in a Final Smash.