Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Knight Dude]

As one of the guys who hated him before his reveal, it was because a lot of people were throwing this design around for smash

Spoiler

I am SUPER glad they went with a more classic Pac-Man for smash. It makes me actually kinda like him, rather than tolerate him

That Pac-Man is actual trash. LOOK AT HIS FACE! Why give him detailed eyes? He's supposed to be simple. And the teeth were a mistake.

 

[N3ON]

I like to imagine Namco suggested that design and Sakurai laughed for ten seconds straight and then sharply said "never".

 

[Jubileus57]

Honestly I Prefer the New Pacman with the White Sclera and Blue-eyes!!! It's honestly my Personal Preference; Please Respect my Opinion.

To each their own taste. I'm not one to judge the preferences of others.

 

[Bowserlick]

Wouldn't the Rex and Pyra designs clash with Shulk's more realistic design?

Will one be modified to look more like the other?

 

[Knight Dude]

I don't think that this Smash would be a full re-boot, but I DO think/hope that they re-tool some of the characters they have now, instead of adding another 12 newcomers. I think 5 to 8 new characters would be fine enough, IF some characters get the re-tooling they needed.

Oh, and "trimming the fat" too, but how much, and who that includes is up for debate.

Wouldn't the Rex and Pyra designs clash with Shulk's more realistic design?

Will one be modified to look more like the other?

If you can have Link and Toon Link, Shulk and Rex should be aight.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

To each their own taste. I'm not one to judge the preferences of others.

thank you. ^_^ I Really appreciate how you respected my Opinion; I Respect your opinion, and I'm really glad you Respect mine.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

For sure. Which is why I think any debate now surrounding characters will be all but silenced should they be included.

There's something to be said for gaining new perspective, but when previous principles are abandoned at the drop at a hat, idk, to me it comes across kind of unnecessarily sycophantic. Like one day everyone's talking some Ryu wouldn't fit in Smash, then a day later they're mocking those who have done nothing but maintained that opinion.

I guess that is the case. Which is why I precisely don't take the whole "scraping at the bottom of the barrel" arguments seriously, since people used that argument pre-Smash 4.

If anything, thanks to the Smash Ballot, the Smash 5 newcomer roster has the potential to surpass the hype level the vanilla Smash 4 newcomer roster had. People forget this factor.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm thinking that if the roster had any major cuts, it'll be in a similar manner to Tekken Tag 2 moving on to Tekken 7. In that characters like Anna, Armor King, Christie and Baek get cut since you have Nina, Eddy, King, and Hwoarang. Not to say all of them need the axe, Luigi and Falco are popular enough/have their own traits for them to be worth keeping. But I personally wouldn't miss Lucina, Roy or Dark Pit much. So it wouldn't exactly be half the characters gone.

Hard to say what'll exactly happen though, but I doubt the game will have 70 something characters.

Personally I like the idea of adding some sort of Groove/Variation system to characters. Like let's say that there's a button dedicated to this system. For one "Groove" it could let characters dash/air dash, without it being too complex, and staying in Smash's tradition of being simple to understand. Maybe another could give characters a unique launcher attack.

That said, on which clones do and don't get cut or whatever is clearly going to be biased for each person. But I'm trying to look for the ones that have major changes from their original counterpart.

I'd be all down for making Smaah more like other fighters, but I doubt that mechanics like Air-Dashing and Launchers for air combos would ever be added.

If therest one thing I do want changed though, it's the Smash Ball. I think Super moves are a great idea, but the way the Smash Ball is implemented, totally ruins the concept.

One easy way to fix this, is to add a meter system of sorts, and make it so that the Smash Ball instantly fills the meter. You should be able to toggle supers on and off as well. Also, balance them properly.

Custom moves I'd also like to see fleshed out proper.

Whatever the case may be, I'm sure Nintendo will go their usual route of doing what others have done before, but with their own quirky spin as always. Ino, I think fleshing out mechanics and ideas that have veen touched on in previous games is a great way to start.

Also, one benefit of revamping the roster, outside of obviously being able to properly capitalize on the moveset potential of vets, is that because the roster is much more manageable, youdy be able to have tons of cool character specific stuff in game again. Like the Melee Target tests for example.

 

[Chiroz]

I meant big changes in the context of a reboot. Yes, big changes will keep happening, but they will be additive, not substitutionary. I don't disagree Sakurai will keep looking to innovate, but at the end of the day business trumps all.

Unless my memory is lapsed, Nintendo has never done a full blown reboot following a largely successful title. On the the contrary, they become less inclined to innovate.

But, it is true there will be a tipping ppint when it comes to newcomers. Will it be at 80? 90? 100? But it certainly is more of a long term issue.

What? Breath of the Wild doesn't come to mind?

Even Odyssey is a very different formula to Galaxy 1/2 (even if it retains a lot of similar things) albeit much less obvious.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I'd be all down for making Smaah more like other fighters, but I doubt that mechanics like Air-Dashing and Launchers for air combos would ever be added.

If therest one thing I do want changed though, it's the Smash Ball. I think Super moves are a great idea, but the way the Smash Ball is implemented, totally ruins the concept.

Why, that was a Mechanic LOTS of People(Including ME) enjoyed; I Cannot see them changing it!!

 

[IronTed]

What? Breath of the Wild doesn't come to mind?

Even Odyssey is a very different formula to Galaxy 1/2 (even if it retains a lot of similar things) albeit much less obvious.

Do you consider SS and 3D World to be very successful titles? Because those directly preceded BoTW and Odyssey.

 

[Deleted member]

I meant big changes in the context of a reboot. Yes, big changes will keep happening, but they will be additive, not substitutionary. I don't disagree Sakurai will keep looking to innovate, but at the end of the day business trumps all.

Unless my memory is lapsed, Nintendo has never done a full blown reboot following a largely successful title. On the the contrary, they become less inclined to innovate.

But, it is true there will be a tipping ppint when it comes to newcomers. Will it be at 80? 90? 100? But it certainly is more of a long term issue.

Tipping point has basically already been passed. The roster in 4 is already starting feel very samey in terms of playstyles. 70 is basically the max most fighting games go for, with the largest roster ever belonging to I think Capcom vs. SNK 2 (or was it one of the KoF games?), which was a team-fighter and it had a roster of sub 80.

No, DBZ Tenkaichi 3 with its 150+ character roster does not count, and if you'd played it, you'd know why. There are basically like 10 character movesets distributed among the roster. Everyone plays the same.

Thus, point being, the budget and dev time for games is NOT infinite. With each new installment, as the roster grows, so does the dev time grow exponentially. No, it's not as simple as just porting stuff over. If you're working with a new engine, you've gotta redo everything. Plus, the playtesting and balance. That's what takes up 80% of development time in a fighting game. For every change you make to the game physics to the game, or every new mechanic you add, every character has to be playtested against every other character on the roster again and again for bugs, exploits, and balance issues.

Finally, reboots are common among fighting games. Just about every major franchise out there has been rebooted at least once, and its got nothing to do with sales. More often than not, it's simply the devs wanting to try new things with the mechanics or roster. Something Nintendo is already very familiar to begin with.

Personally, I'm not holding my breath for it, but there do seem to be a few hints this game might be a reboot.

-right handed BotW Link
-Retro logo
-Short dev time
-bloated roster
-popular characters not returning, making a continuation of 4 seeming inferior by comparison
-franchise is starting to get stale and less exciting for many
-eSports focus on Nintendo's part
etc...

We'll see.

That said, the franchise will have to be rebooted sooner or later.

 

[Knight Dude]

I'd be all down for making Smaah more like other fighters, but I doubt that mechanics like Air-Dashing and Launchers for air combos would ever be added.

If therest one thing I do want changed though, it's the Smash Ball. I think Super moves are a great idea, but the way the Smash Ball is implemented, totally ruins the concept.

One easy way to fix this, is to add a meter system of sorts, and make it so that the Smash Ball instantly fills the meter. You should be able to toggle supers on and off as well. Also, balance them properly.

Custom moves I'd also like to see fleshed out proper.

Whatever the case may be, I'm sure Nintendo will go their usual route of doing what others have done before, but with their own quirky spin as always. Ino, I think fleshing out mechanics and ideas that have veen touched on in previous games is a great way to start.

Also, one benefit of revamping the roster, outside of obviously being able to properly capitalize on the moveset potential of vets, is that because the roster is much more manageable, youdy be able to have tons of cool character specific stuff in game again. Like the Melee Target tests for example.

I've mentioned Final Smashes using meter before Smash 4 even came out. It'd be sick, but I don't have high hopes for it, not without some changes if at least two people can activate them at once.

With the custom moves, given they can't be used online, are random and annoying to get, this is where I think clone characters SHOULD have some presence. If they have ideas for a widely different versions of characters, like Dr.Mario getting the really fast pills, but can charge them to make the slow and heavy pill instead of having a skin of the same Fireball that Mario has. Just as an example.

Why, that was a Mechanic LOTS of People(Including ME) enjoyed; I Cannot see them changing it!!

He's saying that the Smash Ball would still exist. But would act as a supplement to the characters building meter on their own.

 

[Deleted member]

Why, that was a Mechanic LOTS of People(Including ME) enjoyed; I Cannot see them changing it!!

I disagree, that's anectdotal evidence, and I'd argue the opposite in fact. I've seen more complaints about Smash balls, than praise.

Plus, what I suggested wouldn't change a single thing for the people who enjoyed smash balls. You still get the reward of a super move upon breaking it.

Not like arguing this point really matters though, as I seriously doubt my idea would ever be implemented into Smash.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I've mentioned Final Smashes using meter before Smash 4 even came out. It'd be sick, but I don't have high hopes for it.

Well technically Dr Mario IS Already Slower & More Powerful than Mario In SSB4(Like he was SUPPOSED to be in Melee, though wasn't due to Time Constraints limiting what they could implement into the game); Plus a Meter Just would change things WAY too Much in the Game in Smash; like where to put the Character Icons and their Damage Levels(as in those Percentage that shows how much damage they've taken), and where to put the timer, and the view of the stage; It'd take away what Makes Smash Bros Unique.
Plus I'd Rather Have Final Smashes the way they've been established from brawl up to SSB4; Why change something that works, and bring over such a Change, that would end up Angering the Vocal Majority of people, and the People who are gonna buy this game.

Not like arguing this point really matters though, as I seriously doubt my idea would ever be implemented into Smash.

I Sure hope it doesn't. It's too Drastic of a change.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I think meter is a terrible idea, at least for competitive play. Final Smashes aren't balanced, even just among each other.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I think meter is a terrible idea, at least for competitive play. Final Smashes aren't balanced, even just among each other.

I whole-Heartedly Agree; Because of the Competitive Nature of Competitive Play of Smash; Adding Meters would be a Significant Detriment to the Game and to its core Players!!

 

[Bowserlick]

Meters and air dashing are probably best regulated to specific characters.

Tag team moves could be fun, though.

 

[Deleted member]

I think meter is a terrible idea, at least for competitive play. Final Smashes aren't balanced, even just among each other.

That's why I also said rebalance the FS. Look at PM (Lucario I think) as an example of what could be done.

We are speaking reboot here, so there is room to totally redo them all.

 

[Cosmic77]

Tipping point has basically already been passed. The roster in 4 is already starting feel very samey in terms of playstyles. 70 is basically the max most fighting games go for, with the largest roster ever belonging to I think Capcom vs. SNK 2 (or was it one of the KoF games?), which was a team-fighter and it had a roster of sub 80.

No, DBZ Tenkaichi 3 with its 150+ character roster does not count, and if you'd played it, you'd know why. There are basically like 10 character movesets distributed among the roster. Everyone plays the same.

Thus, point being, the budget and dev time for games is NOT infinite. With each new installment, as the roster grows, so does the dev time grow exponentially. No, it's not as simple as just porting stuff over. If you're working with a new engine, you've gotta redo everything. Plus, the playtesting and balance. That's what takes up 80% of development time in a fighting game. For every change you make to the game physics to the game, or every new mechanic you add, every character has to be playtested against every other character on the roster again and again for bugs, exploits, and balance issues.

Finally, reboots are common among fighting games. Just about every major franchise out there has been rebooted at least once, and its got nothing to do with sales. More often than not, it's simply the devs wanting to try new things with the mechanics or roster. Something Nintendo is already very familiar to begin with.

Personally, I'm not holding my breath for it, but there do seem to be a few hints this game might be a reboot.

-right handed BotW Link
-Retro logo
-Short dev time
-bloated roster
-popular characters not returning, making a continuation of 4 seeming inferior by comparison
-franchise is starting to get stale and less exciting for many
-eSports focus on Nintendo's part
etc...

We'll see.

That said, the franchise will have to be rebooted sooner or later.

Smash is one series where I don't really see a complete reboot happening.

The current formula works fine, and with a massive series that consistently sells well, I don't think Nintendo would want to jeopardize everything by doing a massive overhaul if they thought there was even a small possibility it would backfire. If a lack of development time becomes too much of an issue, then the obvious answer would be cuts. Not just with characters, but with modes and stages too. Get rid of just about everything that you feel like isn't a good way to spend development time, and use whatever time you saved to add all your new ideas.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

Meters and air dashing are probably best regulated to specific characters.

Tag team moves could be fun, though.

I could only see that Working in a Seperate Original Fighting Game IP that Focuses on Tag-Team Combat; though such a Complex, Complicated, and Outside-the-box idea for the Game, would be extremely Difficult to Implement successfully; I mean, How many 2-On-2 Tag-team Fighting games are there out on the Gaming Market?!

 

[N3ON]

I don't think more options to the gameplay is a bad thing. If meters could be implemented as an optional mechanic, with Smash Balls still present as Manly outlined them, then you'd really have four different options: both, one or the other, or neither.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I don't think more options to the gameplay is a bad thing. If meters could be implemented as an optional mechanic, with Smash Balls still present as Manly outlined them, then you'd really have four different options: both, one or the other, or neither.

As long as there's an Option for the Way it had worked back in Brawl & SSB4, I'm all in for More Options

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I would like a meter mechanic if they implemented it with complete rebalancing of final smashes, but also made it possible to disable it. It'd be fun to experiment with at the start of Smash 5's competitive life, and then it could be turned off if deemed imbalanced in some way.

 

[DraginHikari]

Anyone who says Spring Man is too new while demanding and prophesizing Rex and Pyra really doesn't understand the term "consistency."

Seriously though, Spring Man will get in and Rex and Pyra won't. Waluigi won't either. And Dixie will be passed up for Cranky Kong, who's Final Smash will be that Old Jukebox from the original DKC Intro

No offense, but you're overlooking a key difference.

Spring Man's entire home franchise is brand new, and since they'd have had to decide whether to include him before ARMS was on shelves and possibly before it was even announced, he'd have had a lot of question marks surrounding him. This is notable, since there's a history of Sakurai and crew taking a wait-and-see approach to newcomers from other brand new IPs in the past, notably the Inklings. The recent statement by the ARMS directors has further complicated things.

Rex & Pyra, though? They're new faces, but for a franchise that has already established itself and keeps growing in prominence. Adding another Xenoblade character wouldn't have felt nearly the same risk back when the roster was ironed out, at least not compared to adding a character from a franchise that was still many months from debuting entirely.

This is kind of the key thing, Xenoablade has been established as a Franchise within Smash.

Fantastic. We're talking about Pyra's outfit again.


Y'know, I still don't understand why the Pyra thing is such a big deal to everyone. There's literally dozens of different things we could talk about with Pyra, but for some strange reason, we always end up back to the outfit.

Honestly, does it really matter that much if she gets censored or not?

The Art Design and character design is one of the bigger criticisms of XB2. It's not surprising it would keep coming up when she's brought up.

heels

Remember that?

Well shoot got a spam warning, didn't even mean it like that.

Oh god the ZSS heels, the salt was very very real back then.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Honestly I would like to see Super Smash Bros. have something on par with roman cancels, like how Guilty Gear does it.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly I would like to see Super Smash Bros. have something on par with roman cancels, like how Guilty Gear does it.

I wish!!

Lol.

 

[Lukingordex]

Honestly I would like to see Super Smash Bros. have something on par with roman cancels, like how Guilty Gear does it.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "roman cancels" exactly?

 

[Knight Dude]

For gameplay modes, I know some people have mentioned something similar to the team battles in Tekken. Basically each stock would be a different character(let's say 4 max, unlike the 8 max in Tekken). I think that would be fun in such a hectic series.

They had something like this in Smash Tour, but seeing as everyone played it once and called it a day, giving it a dedicated mode would be a good idea I think.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Re-done/balanced Final Smashes would be great actually. Some of them are useless, and others are insta-kills. They just need to find a middle ground for everyone.

I'd also love less Final Smashes that are "turns into invincible version of self." Can't we be just a tiny bit more creative?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Mega Lucario was cool in concept but lacking in execution. They didn't even give it a speed boost like it gets in game.

 

[Baskerville]

Rare scene of speculah actually talking about gameplay mechanics.

Anyways, I'd like to see them implement EX moves into the game. Like take Lucario's Aura Sphere and have the EX version be a much smaller scaled version of his Brawl Final Smash (Or P:M Ivysaurs Solar Beam).

Honestly I would like to see Super Smash Bros. have something on par with roman cancels, like how Guilty Gear does it.

Now that would be fun to mess with.
I really need to get into Guilty Gear.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I guess that is the case. Which is why I precisely don't take the whole "scraping at the bottom of the barrel" arguments seriously, since people used that argument pre-Smash 4.

If anything, thanks to the Smash Ballot, the Smash 5 newcomer roster has the potential to surpass the hype level the vanilla Smash 4 newcomer roster had. People forget this factor.

Not to mention that Nintendo has started to create and push new IPs of varying sizes such as megatons like Splatoon, great success stories like ARMS and more humble but successful series like Dillon's Rolling Western.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The biggest priority for me is fixing Palutena. Especially if custom moves are gone.

I wanted to like playing her, but she is the most frustrating addition to Smash in it's recent history.

 

[Koopaul]

Why not have a seperate mode of Smash that has a Final Smash meter? You know like there's a Stamina Mode or Coin Mode. Why not a Final Smash Mode? Then you can have a unique experience with the Final Smash without hurting the competetive scene.

In fact I've been dieing for new modes and playstyle options. We haven't had a new one since Melee.

Well I guess 8-Player Smash counts.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Here's my roster as of March 30th.
I'm open to a few alternate choices like I listed in the image, but there are others that I'm fine with not making it in if someone else does. For example, I'm always going to be a Ridley supporter, but at this point, I'd take Dark Samus.
Honestly, I don't think there are many characters they could add that I'd be disappointed with aside from Minecraft Steve & Goku.

Spoiler: Newcomers List

17 Newcomers:
Captain Toad [or Paper Mario]
Waluigi
Vaati
K Rool [or Dixie]
Decidueye
Ridley
Rex & Pyra
Bandana Dee [or Marx[
Celica [or any new FE rep]
Excite Biker [or any retro]
Black Shadow [if they rework Ganondorf]
Inkling
Spring Man
Dillon
Chibi Robo
Rayman
Geno [or other Square rep]

Spoiler: Starter Roster

Uh... Wolf?

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "roman cancels" exactly?

That's what I Wanna know too; Since I Have NO idea whatsoever!!

 

[Knight Dude]

Rare scene of speculah actually talking about gameplay mechanics.

Anyways, I'd like to see them implement EX moves into the game. Like take Lucario's Aura Sphere and have the EX version be a much smaller scaled version of his Brawl Final Smash (Or P:M Ivysaurs Solar Beam).


Now that would be fun to mess with.
I really need to get into Guilty Gear.

Could be neat, but I wonder how said EX moves would be preformed. I mean, Ryu sorta, kinda has that with the traditional inputs enhancing his specials. Do you think this should be the case for guys like Mario and Samus?

The biggest priority for me is fixing Palutena. Especially if costum moves are gone.

I wanted to like playing her, but she is the most frustrating addition to Smash in it's recent history.

Yeah she's weird to use for me too.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The biggest priority for me is fixing Palutena. Especially if costum moves are gone.

I wanted to like playing her, but she is the most frustrating addition to Smash in it's recent history.

For real though.

She's the only Smash 4 newcomer that isn't fun to play.

Even oddballs like Wii Fit Trainer and low tier characters like Mii Swordfighter are still fun.

Mostly cause their moveset design isn't half baked and cannibalizing itself.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I'd be all down for making Smaah more like other fighters, but I doubt that mechanics like Air-Dashing and Launchers for air combos would ever be added.

The Launcher part is really more of Smash being at least slightly incommensurable. You can already do one of sorts insofar as there are plenty of moves that knock the opponent up and easily allow for a follow up, but the pseudo-cinematic autocombos like you see in Marvel are an incoherent idea in Smash (and not even good for Marvel anyway). There are things that Smash could add, but they need to be things that don't conflict with the basic mechanics that make it not a normal fighting game.
More command-dash type moves would be great. I would unironically love Violent Ken being added just because he has a big aerial grab and a command dash.

Unrelatedly: Does anyone have an opinion on Dark Souls getting represented in this game? I know that newcomer Chosen Undead is a bit of a long shot, but I wouldn't be surprised by a Solaire assist trophy.