Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Troykv]

For some reason I had always found Rex's clothes weirder than Pyra's even if she is the one with butt crack XD

 

[9Volt]

Hey, new topic, let's talk about a 1080° character as the new suprise character for smash 5 :D

 

[Jak_spoon]

I think Marshadow would be interesting, yes, but the kicker here is that Marshadow's prime move is Spectral Thief... how would this translate into smash?

There is always something you can do. Have you ever played the insect glaive in Monster hunter? You could make some stat boosting mechanic like that if you wanted to. My big thing is that I really dont want Decidueye. I want something thats new and feels fresh. I also like the smaller pokemon. Also, Mythics always end up in the top 50 for popularity polls. So you know thats not a concern and we dont have a mythic on the roster yet. It seems like a cooler idea than filling out the "starter elements" which has already been done.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, new topic

I'm personally up for talking about the likelihood of the game being a reboot.

I think there's a very fair chance of that happening considering Link is shown to be right-handed in the teaser, and the logo harks back to OG Smash 64.

Also, now's a good a time as any to do a reboot, what with all there being a bloated af roster, tons of missed potential in character movesets (like Ganondorf), and the fact that all the non-returning 3rd party are gonna disappoint most people, and by comparison, this roster will look inferior to 4's.

 

[Knight Dude]

@NonSpecificGuy Since you mentioned Strikers Charged, I'm also gonna throw my vote for that. Luigi's theme is too smooth.

Hey, new topic, let's talk about a 1080° character as the new suprise character for smash 5 :D

At the very least, a stage and music would be nice. But if I had to pick someone who's constantly riding a vechicle/sports equipment I'd want either Excitebike or Mach Rider myself.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Xenoblade Chronicles X has Tatsu so it's automatically bad

I agree for I am one as well, at least Pyra got a triadic thing going on with her yellow and blue accents to back up all that red.

The earth tones on Rex wash out the already kind of muted looking blue, on top of being brunette which makes him look like a vendor in a JRPG shop.

Spoiler: Image

I always got the impression it was intentionally done as a form of contrast, like with the classic red vs. blue.

Note that Rex himself is supposed to be a Salvager, so he needs to wear something that would allow him to quickly gear up before diving in the Cloud Sea. Hence why his outfit has elements of a deep sea diver, like the metal boots and helmet. Believe me when you work in those type of jobs, you need something that is practical, not fashionable.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Hey, new topic, let's talk about a 1080° character as the new suprise character for smash 5 :D

As likely as a Wave Racer and a Pilot Wing character, I'd say.

 

[Pakky]

Is Airman's theme in Smash?

 

[SlickWylde]

Here is a nice discussion topic.

What music remixes do you want in the next Smash?

A lot of games have new music potential...

Fun fact: I don't know the name of a single song in any video game! I didn't know people cared about what music gets in a smash game until I heard you guys talking about it. I'm definitely in the minority. But I've started to actually listen to songs in the stages and stuff, and it can really change the mood of a fight!

I just want the "Robotnik" song from the first boss fight in Sonic 3.

 

[CBO0tz]

I'm talking about both full costumes for characters (Plumber Wario/Biker Wario), and full-on character changes (Olimar/Alph, Bowser Jr/Koopalings), tbh.

One costume I was thinking that could be changed is Ike's Greil (Yellow) recolor. In FE: Heroes they actually gave Ike a unique Greil costume, that I'd love to see him have in Smash. Without the axe, obviously.

Spoiler

 

[N3ON]

As a character designer myself, I don't think they're really that bad to be honest. Rex is the bigger offender of the two imo, but mostly because other than the bizarre outfit, his design screams "background character" far more than "main protagonist." I also get that sexualization isn't everyone's cup of tea, but Pyra's design is actually very tame if anything. They also really needed more of a breakup in the colour department, together they have the usual combo of red and blue, but as standalone characters, it's more apparently garish. I could sit here all day really and analyze the character designs, but I suppose we're just falling into the same spiel. Besides the fact that the average complaint is more "omg bewbz" than any legitimate design criticism.

Well ultimately it is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally find them pretty poorly designed, for reasons that don't even really touch on colour scheme. Though Rex's colour scheme is pretty drab, and his design is quite mundane for a protagonist, I agree. But I think the art direction of the characters in general is on-the-nose to the point of unintentional parody of JRPG aesthetic. The characters just feel trite and contrived in design to me.

And that extends to Pyra's sexualization. Because again sexualization, especially overt sexualization of female characters; I don't have a problem with that. A lot of women may, but I think as long as it speaks to the character and is well done, there's a place for it, and I'll embrace it. I believe a lot of Fire Emblem's sexualized designs are also good designs (not all, but many). I think Street Fighter has some great sexualized designs (for males as well). So while I can't speak to whether it fits Pyra the character, having not played the game, I just don't believe it's well done. It's a continuation of feeling on-the-nose and contrived. It's not the exaggeration itself, it's the ineptness of the exaggeration, imo it's vapid and hackneyed; it reminds me a fan design. However, even if she had A-cups and showed little skin, I think the design would still be pretty cliched and overdone in the trope department, to the point it feels hollow. But again, much like colour scheme, this is only one layer.

So that's why I personally would not enjoy their inclusion. I'd rather these designs not become memorialized through Smash. Not because Xenoblade isn't of merit for another addition or anything like that. I understand that art is, above all, subjective... I just don't find this art particularly artistic.

 

[9Volt]

As likely as a Wave Racer and a Pilot Wing character, I'd say.

Let's not talk about probability but If the char shows up, how is gameplay, stage, assist trophy, final smash?

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I'm personally up for talking about the likelihood of the game being a reboot.

I think there's a very fair chance of that happening considering Link is shown to be right-handed in the teaser, and the logo harks back to OG Smash 64.

Also, now's a good a time as any to do a reboot, what with all there being a bloated af roster, tons of missed potential in character movesets (like Ganondorf), and the fact that all the non-returning 3rd party are gonna disappoint most people, and by comparison, this roster will look inferior to 4's.

Why do you think the none of the 3rd Parties are coming back?

Also, if it is a reboot, how do you think the roster would be handled?

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Is Airman's theme in Smash?

It actually is, and it's pretty great imo.

While on the subject of music, can we PLEASE get a remix of Dark Samus' theme? How is that NOT in Smash already?

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

You know, that actually brings up a good question. How many people here would be sincerely disappointed by an absence of Rex and/or Pyra?

Personally, I wouldn't care that much, but that's mainly because I've never played a Xenoblade game before. Hard to get upset over a character you have no connection with.

Oh yeah, I would be upset if only because I quite liked Xenoblade 2 and NO other character can have the type of gimmick they can have. And no, Pokemon Trainer even come remotely close to a "Driver and Blade" system.

As long as they played good and we get a healthy amount of Xenoblade 2 content, I would be happy.

Also "Sakurai expressed frustration at CERO for being nitpicky" just curious... Any source of this? I also don't know why Sakurai was frustrated at CERO bring nitpicky, I am guessing he is more strict when it comes to ratings, if that's the case then again, I do see Pyra having clothing tweaks.

Edit:So not saying you are entirely wrong... I just don't get why you are so sure about this.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/18/cero-and-palutenas-censorship/

I hate the subject as much as you do, but here's the source.

The CERO runs how Smash goes as far as content.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Why do you think the none of the 3rd Parties are coming back?

Also, if it is a reboot, how do you think the roster would be handled?

Because he doesn't like them and keeps yelling "CASUALS WON'T CARE" through his megaphone through the wrong end

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm personally up for talking about the likelihood of the game being a reboot.

I think there's a very fair chance of that happening considering Link is shown to be right-handed in the teaser, and the logo harks back to OG Smash 64.

Also, now's a good a time as any to do a reboot, what with all there being a bloated af roster, tons of missed potential in character movesets (like Ganondorf), and the fact that all the non-returning 3rd party are gonna disappoint most people, and by comparison, this roster will look inferior to 4's.

The logo's more like Melee I think.

I wouldn't be 100% surprised if the game goes under huge changes from the other entries this around. I know a lot of people don't like talking about clones and the chances of them getting cut, and I'd probably prefer them over costume moves returning given how tedious it is to obtain said moves.

Some characters do need a re-tooling however, and certain characters could use more unique specials(namely all the ****ing counters). In terms of balance, Zelda needs a lot of help because she's been near trash since her debut. Ganon's fun, but doesn't represent himself much outside of 3 moves and his Final Smash.

Then we got characters who have a ton of tools from their own games that haven't been used. Samus has the Classic Ice Beam, and the new Melee attack in Samus Returns, which would probably be better than her current Up-Smash in terms of utility.

For the 3rd party characters, I'm at least hoping Mega Man comes back, since Capcom tends to throw their characters into a crapload of games as it is, especially Mega Man and Street Fighter. Sonic is the closest to being a given.

 

[Deleted member]

Well ultimately it is in the eye of the beholder, but I personally find them pretty poorly designed, for reasons that don't even really touch on colour scheme. Though Rex's colour scheme is pretty drab, and his design is quite mundane for a protagonist, I agree. But I think the art direction of the characters in general is on-the-nose to the point of unintentional parody of JRPG aesthetic. The characters just feel trite and contrived in design to me.

And that extends to Pyra's sexualization. Because again sexualization, especially overt sexualization of female characters; I don't have a problem with that. A lot of women may, but I think as long as it speaks to the character and is well done, there's a place for it, and I'll embrace it. I believe a lot of Fire Emblem's sexualized designs are also good designs (not all, but many). I think Street Fighter has some great sexualized designs (for males as well). So while I can't speak to whether it fits Pyra the character, having not played the game, I just don't believe it's well done. It's a continuation of feeling on-the-nose and contrived. It's not the exaggeration itself, it's the ineptness of the exaggeration, imo it's vapid and hackneyed; it reminds me a fan design. However, even if she had A-cups and showed little skin, I think the design would still be pretty cliched and overdone in the trope department, to the point it feels hollow. But again, much like colour scheme, this is only one layer.

So that's why I personally would not enjoy their inclusion. I'd rather these designs not become memorialized through Smash. Not because Xenoblade isn't of merit for another addition or anything like that. I understand that art is, above all, subjective... I just don't find this art particularly artistic.

They're overdesigned. That's the main issue at hand. They have so much going on, the designs don't immediately communicate anything about the characters at a glance. I didn't even catch the scuba motif with Rex until someone pointed it out like months after I'd first seen the designs. Also, there's very little personality conveyed with the character designs, and what little there might be, is also marred by what I would assume is very poor writing riddled with tired tropes.

Character design begins in the writing. You can't design a character for whom you haven't written a description and such for. The more detail you can put into describing a character as a person, the more you can add certain elements to a design so that those personality aspects transfer onto the design.

You mentioned SF, which I agree has top notch designs. Ryu is a great example. Very simple design, but it communicates so much about WHO he is, just visually alone. You can tell he's a wandering fighter and a loner, because his Gi is tattered. His red headband and red gloves create a nice contrast, and the red on the gloves also draws a lot of attention to his fists, which is helpful for reading his actions in a game. You can tell his fighting style is Karate based, and that he's likely Japanese thanks to the style of Gi he's got. Also, the white Gi, also carries a lot of symbolism about his personality, things like Honor, Purity, etc... are all conveyed through that. I could honestly do this for the entire SF cast. They're all very well-though out designs imo.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Nah if Pyra gets in there will be enough people defending whatever state she’s in to smother much dissent. That’s how that goes.

Past the initial reveal, at least.

If opinions before inclusion were the same as opinions after inclusion, this would be a very different place. Over half of the third parties would be quite contentious, for instance.

Remember when the idea of a playable was hated? As a guy who supported him, I do.

 

[Pakky]

Remember when the idea of a playable was hated? As a guy who supported him, I do.

Which was always silly, oh wait could Lylode be added?

 

[Senselessbreak]

Does Xenoblade even have villains?

That aren't killer robots

If you don't mind earlier game spoilers this is an amazing scene that showcases some of the main characters and villains

Spoiler

 

[IronTed]

There is no substantial reason for Smash 5 to be a reboot. The 3DS/Wii U versions not only sold well, not only were well receieved, but also had lucrative DLC.

Big changes generally occur after a game under-performed (think Skyword Sword), and sometimes after a game gets widely-panned. Smash 4 is neither of those things.

 

[Deleted member]

The logo's more like Melee I think.

I wouldn't be 100% surprised if the game goes under huge changes from the other entries this around. I know a lot of people don't like talking about clones and the chances of them getting cut, and I'd probably prefer them over costume moves returning given how tedious it is to obtain said moves.

Some characters do need a re-tooling however, and certain characters could use more unique specials(namely all the ****ing counters). In terms of balance, Zelda needs a lot of help because she's been near trash since her debut. Ganon's fun, but doesn't represent himself much outside of 3 moves and his Final Smash.

Then we got characters who have a ton of tools from their own games that haven't been used. Samus has the Classic Ice Beam, and the new Melee attack in Samus Returns, which would probably be better than her current Up-Smash in terms of utility.

For the 3rd party characters, I'm at least hoping Mega Man comes back, since Capcom tends to throw their characters into a crapload of games as it is, especially Mega Man and Street Fighter. Sonic is the closest to being a given.

Nah, it's literally the exact logo as in Smash 64, check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz79J_3TlBM

@1:13

I pretty much agree with you on everything else. Personally, a reboot is the only thing that could interest me enough to pick up the newest copy. Imo, 4 was as satisfying as it could have been in terms of roster. Adding in the Inklings, and other obscure Nintendo characters is no longer enough to get me to care. I'm much more interested in what they could do gameplay-wise.

Why do you think the none of the 3rd Parties are coming back?

Also, if it is a reboot, how do you think the roster would be handled?

Not "none" but a lot of the more hype ones likely won't. Most notably Cloud. I know most people here don't care. But everyone else outside of here really did, and cutting him would immediately make the roster less impressive to most people unless you add something like Goku in. In terms of fan-service, 4 was a 10/10, in contrast, 5 would only be a downgrade in the eyes of most people if they only went for adding even MORE stuff in.

As for what I would do?

Gut the roster by like 50%, and start again from scratch, introducing newer or more fleshed out mechanics, and retool the entire cast from square one. So you'd have a roster of like 30-35 characters, but every character has a totally different/more fleshed out moveset from what they've had in previous games. I'd also capitalize on the custom specials idea, I think that has potential if done right.

 

[RouffWestie]

I'm certain the game is just the combined content of both Smash 4 versions plus a small handful of newcomers, and a lot of DLC in the future.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Remember when the idea of a playable was hated? As a guy who supported him, I do.

I remember those days

"Pac-Man doesn't fit"

"Pac-Man has no moveset potential"

"Lloyd/Klonoa are better"

Glad that Sakurai proved all of them wrong.

 

[N3ON]

They're overdesigned. That's the main issue at hand. They have so much going on, the designs don't immediately communicate anything about the characters at a glance. I didn't even catch the scuba motif with Rex until someone pointed it out like months after I'd first seen the designs. Also, there's very little personality conveyed with the character designs, and what little there might be, is also marred by what I would assume is very poor writing riddled with tired tropes.

Character design begins in the writing. You can't design a character for whom you haven't written a description and such for. The more detail you can put into describing a character as a person, the more you can add certain elements to a design so that those personality aspects transfer onto the design.

You mentioned SF, which I agree has top notch designs. Ryu is a great example. Very simple design, but it communicates so much about WHO he is, just visually alone. You can tell he's a wandering fighter and a loner, because his Gi is tattered. His red headband and red gloves create a nice contrast, and the red on the gloves also draws a lot of attention to his fists, which is helpful for reading his actions in a game. You can tell his fighting style is Karate based, and that he's likely Japanese thanks to the style of Gi he's got. Also, the white Gi, also carries a lot of symbolism about his personality, things like Honor, Purity, etc... are all conveyed through that. I could honestly do this for the entire SF cast. They're all very well-though out designs imo.

Yep, agreed. If I was familiar with their personalities, I would've expanded on that facet, but yeah. All very true.

Remember when the idea of a playable was hated? As a guy who supported him, I do.

Oh sure. I remember before it was announced that Namco was involved and he wasn't even seriously considered by most.

The only third-party characters that were never contentious additions (past their non-Nintendo status) were Sonic and Mega Man. People seem to forget that...

 

[FlareHabanero]

Remember when the idea of a playable was hated? As a guy who supported him, I do.

I would argue part of the issue was that at the time Nacmo was pushing the Ghostly Adventures reboot, which received very mixed reception.

To a lesser extent Pac-Man's appearance in the controversial Street Fighter x Tekken also didn't help.

So people being on edge about the character held some weight.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Yep, agreed. If I was familiar with their personalities, I would've expanded on that facet, but yeah. All very true.


Oh sure. I remember before it was announced that Namco was involved and he wasn't even seriously considered by most.

The only third-party characters that were never contentious additions (past their non-Nintendo status) were Sonic and Mega Man. People seem to forget that...

It's really to do with hindsight bias.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

There is no substantial reason for Smash 5 to be a reboot. The 3DS/Wii U versions not only sold well, not only were well receieved, but also had lucrative DLC.

Big changes occur after a game under-performed (think Skyword Sword), and sometimes after a game gets widely-panned. Smash 4 is neither of those things.

I don't think a game necessarily needs to underperform and get a poor reception for a series to get some major changes, Nintendo is a business of course, but a lot of their game designers are also men of principles and philosophies, if they think a change is needed they'll take the risk, it's not like with a lot of western developers who are more than content with staying in their safe zone. Sakurai is no exception to this, and I think he'll eventually want to reboot Smash regardless of the success of future installments, but I'm also positive that the time for that hasn't come yet.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

I'm talking about both full costumes for characters (Plumber Wario/Biker Wario), and full-on character changes (Olimar/Alph, Bowser Jr/Koopalings), tbh.

One costume I was thinking that could be changed is Ike's Greil (Yellow) recolor. In FE: Heroes they actually gave Ike a unique Greil costume, that I'd love to see him have in Smash. Without the axe, obviously.

Spoiler

Would it be a disservice to Ike's character to replace his Ragnell with his Urvan? Because that sounds awesome in my uneducated opinion.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

The winner was the Assist Trophy Gray Fox. Big Boss and Revolver Ocelot seemed to be popular picks in the last poll, while Sniper Wolf was seen as the most boring choice.

Next is another Metal themed poll with a few fan favorites and other Snakes (fans of the series should know who they are). Your choice are Liquid Snake, Solidus Snake, Raiden, and Psycho Mantis.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Begin.

 

[Starcutter]

Remember when the idea of a playable was hated? As a guy who supported him, I do.

As one of the guys who hated him before his reveal, it was because a lot of people were throwing this design around for smash

Spoiler

I am SUPER glad they went with a more classic Pac-Man for smash. It makes me actually kinda like him, rather than tolerate him

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

Who could Possibly Replace Xander Mobus as the Voice of the Announcer(as well as Master Right Hand, and Crazy Left Hand);
and what kind of Marketability could they use to Replace the Iconic (In Xander Mobus' Announcer Voice) SETTLE IT IN SMASH ; and Instead of Black Borders with the Characters' names under them, Like in Brawl, or Splash Pages with the Characters in a Pose and a Tagline such as Mewtwo Strikes Back, or Greninja makes a Splash like they did in SSB4; What marketable and Memorable thing could they do for Character Trailers in Smash for Switch?!!

 

[Hinata]

The winner was the Assist Trophy Gray Fox. Big Boss and Revolver Ocelot seemed to be popular picks in the last poll, while Sniper Wolf was seen as the most boring choice.

Next is another Metal themed poll with a few fan favorites and other Snakes (fans of the series should know who they are). Your choice are Liquid Snake, Solidus Snake, Raiden, and Psycho Mantis.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Begin.

Raiden is the only real answer here, in my humble opinion.

 

[Knight Dude]

Nah, it's literally the exact logo as in Smash 64, check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz79J_3TlBM

@1:13

I pretty much agree with you on everything else. Personally, a reboot is the only thing that could interest me enough to pick up the newest copy. Imo, 4 was as satisfying as it could have been in terms of roster. Adding in the Inklings, and other obscure Nintendo characters is no longer enough to get me to care. I'm much more interested in what they could do gameplay-wise.


Not "none" but a lot of the more hype ones likely won't. Most notably Cloud. I know most people here don't care. But everyone else outside of here really did, and cutting him would immediately make the roster less impressive to most people unless you add something like Goku in. In terms of fan-service, 4 was a 10/10, in contrast, 5 would only be a downgrade in the eyes of most people if they only went for adding even MORE stuff in.

As for what I would do?

Gut the roster by like 50%, and start again from scratch, introducing newer or more fleshed out mechanics, and retool the entire cast from square one. So you'd have a roster of like 30-35 characters, but every character has a totally different/more fleshed out moveset from what they've had in previous games. I'd also capitalize on the custom specials idea, I think that has potential if done right.

I'm thinking that if the roster had any major cuts, it'll be in a similar manner to Tekken Tag 2 moving on to Tekken 7. In that characters like Anna, Armor King, Christie and Baek get cut since you have Nina, Eddy, King, and Hwoarang. Not to say all of them need the axe, Luigi and Falco are popular enough/have their own traits for them to be worth keeping. But I personally wouldn't miss Lucina, Roy or Dark Pit much. So it wouldn't exactly be half the characters gone.

Hard to say what'll exactly happen though, but I doubt the game will have 70 something characters.

Personally I like the idea of adding some sort of Groove/Variation system to characters. Like let's say that there's a button dedicated to this system. For one "Groove" it could let characters dash/air dash, without it being too complex, and staying in Smash's tradition of being simple to understand. Maybe another could give characters a unique launcher attack.

That said, on which clones do and don't get cut or whatever is clearly going to be biased for each person. But I'm trying to look for the ones that have major changes from their original counterpart.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

Raiden is the only real answer here, in my humble opinion.

i agree; I bet Raiden will have a LOT of Potential as the First Playable Cyborg in Smash Bros!! That would Definitely Fit the 2nd Rule of Masahiro Sakurai's 4 Fundamental Rules for Super Smash Bros Characters; A Character MUST be Unique

 

[Jubileus57]

As one of the guys who hated him before his reveal, it was because a lot of people were throwing this design around for smash

Spoiler

I am SUPER glad they went with a more classic Pac-Man for smash. It makes me actually kinda like him, rather than tolerate him

I remember those times. What a godawful design. Because of that it was one of the characters a dreaded to see the most (along with Rayman). The worse part was that since Namco Bandai developed the game, we were rather at risk of having him.

Then they revealed him and I was : "Eh, he is much cuter than we all expected". Since then I didn't mind him at all.

 

[N3ON]

It's really to do with hindsight bias.

For sure. Which is why I think any debate now surrounding characters will be all but silenced should they be included.

There's something to be said for gaining new perspective, but when previous principles are abandoned at the drop at a hat, idk, to me it comes across kind of unnecessarily sycophantic. Like one day everyone's talking some Ryu wouldn't fit in Smash, then a day later they're mocking those who have done nothing but maintained that opinion.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I remember those times. What a godawful design. Because of that it was one of the characters a dreaded to see the most (along with Rayman). The worse part was that since Namco Bandai developed the game, we were rather at risk of having him.

Then they revealed him and I was : "Eh, he is much cuter than we all expected". Since then I didn't mind him at all.

Honestly I Prefer the New Pacman with the White Sclera and Blue-eyes!!! It's honestly my Personal Preference; Please Respect my Opinion.

 

[IronTed]

I don't think a game necessarily needs to underperform and get a poor reception for a series to get some major changes, Nintendo is a business of course, but a lot of their game designers are also men of principles and philosophies, if they think a change is needed they'll take the risk, it's not like with a lot of western developers who are more than content with staying in their safe zone. Sakurai is no exception to this, and I think he'll eventually want to reboot Smash regardless of the success of future installments, but I'm also positive that the time for that hasn't come yet.

I meant big changes in the context of a reboot. Yes, big changes will keep happening, but they will be additive, not substitutionary. I don't disagree Sakurai will keep looking to innovate, but at the end of the day business trumps all.

Unless my memory is lapsed, Nintendo has never done a full blown reboot following a largely successful title. On the the contrary, they become less inclined to innovate.

But, it is true there will be a tipping ppint when it comes to newcomers. Will it be at 80? 90? 100? But it certainly is more of a long term issue.