Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Al-kīmiyā']

Clones should be costumes.

 

[Superyoshiom]

Not exactly a counter fam. I'm just pointing out that varies of characters had started somewhere and then became playable later. Some characters? Highly unlikely. Other characters? Well, if they aren't gonna be playable, at least make them show up somewhere to be appreciated in a way.

Only character I can think of at the moment that would be perfect is bring back Pichu as a last minute clone.

Honestly, both Pichu is barely smaller than Pikachu as is, so he might as well be an alternate costume. If we're getting a Pikachu clone in the game, I'd prefer Raichu as a slower Pikachu with more range and heavier attacks.

 

[geoluminescent]

They should add Black Shadow and make him a Falcon clone but not actually change anything about Ganondorf at all, just to make me suffer.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Honestly, both Pichu is barely smaller than Pikachu as is, so he might as well be an alternate costume. If we're getting a Pikachu clone in the game, I'd prefer Raichu as a slower Pikachu with more range and heavier attacks.

But which Raichu are we talking about here?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The problem is Pichu's proportions aren't equivalent to Pikachu. He has a similar enough body shape to easily be a clone, but it won't work as an alternate costume due to having a vastly smaller tail as well. He's clone or bust, really.

 

[Superyoshiom]

But which Raichu are we talking about here?

Oh God, I just realized they could pull a melee and put in Alolan Raichu to represent the new games instead of someone like Decidueye. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be interested in his moveset.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Oh God, I just realized they could pull a melee and put in Alolan Raichu to represent the new games instead of someone like Decidueye. I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be interested in his moveset.

I like the Alolan Raichu for one reason

Psychic AND Electric attacks at once instead of two individual fighters. Raichu is already unique


Aww **** it it's not even 30 minutes and I already violated my own "don't talk characters for 24 hours". Well played

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The problem is Pichu's proportions aren't equivalent to Pikachu. He has a similar enough body shape to easily be a clone, but it won't work as an alternate costume due to having a vastly smaller tail as well. He's clone or bust, really.

This is exactly why clones can’t just be a costume. Pichu is the perfect example to have for this.

Lucina is an interesting case based on Sakurai’s logic (different gameplay=different character slot). It’s even more interesting when you have Alph on Olimar as a costume. Or Doc as separate from Mario (though I understand that one, because seeing Dr. Mario shoot out fireballs? Weird, my dudes.)

Speaking of Alph, I would love Alph as his own thing using Rock Pikmin. That could be pretty interesting to be honest.

 

[FUNT1MER]

I noticed that when animal crossing is mentioned the rep that appears almost 75 percent of the time is Isseble ...... why?
I feel like Mr Ressetti would work much better and has greater moveset potential. I also feel he’s more iconic. Feel free to eat me alive for saying so....

 

[Camc10]

I do think we are "scraping the bottle of the barrel", but i see that as a compliment, think that means that more popular characters that haven't gotten thier chance yet can get thier now since there's less people to pick from now. Not to mention the possibility of dlc meaning more chances. Like, who is there ess to choose from outside f the characters people want?

 

[Superyoshiom]

I noticed that when animal crossing is mentioned the rep that appears almost 75 percent of the time is Isseble ...... why?
I feel like Mr Ressetti would work much better and has greater moveset potential. I also feel he’s more iconic. Feel free to eat me alive for saying so....

Isabelle is monstrously popular, and she's always the primary character used in advertising. I honestly think Animal Crossing can get more than two characters, but if we only get two, it'll most likely be Isabelle.

 

[Louie G.]

I noticed that when animal crossing is mentioned the rep that appears almost 75 percent of the time is Isseble ...... why?
I feel like Mr Ressetti would work much better and has greater moveset potential. I also feel he’s more iconic. Feel free to eat me alive for saying so....

I mean I'm not gonna "eat you alive" for it, Ressetti would be cool but Isabelle is the most realistic option for several reasons. I think at this rate Isabelle is nearly as iconic as Tom Nook or KK, she's marketed as a mascot of sorts and the official Animal Crossing Twitter is run by Isabelle so stuff like that, she's a friendly marketable face who's kinda worked her way up to being the most popular Animal Crossing character.

Semi-ninja'd but yeah if we get anyone from AC I'm almost positive it will be her.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is exactly why clones can’t just be a costume. Pichu is the perfect example to have for this.

Lucina is an interesting case based on Sakurai’s logic (different gameplay=different character slot). It’s even more interesting when you have Alph on Olimar as a costume. Or Doc as separate from Mario (though I understand that one, because seeing Dr. Mario shoot out fireballs? Weird, my dudes.)

Speaking of Alph, I would love Alph as his own thing using Rock Pikmin. That could be pretty interesting to be honest.

At least Alph has the same proportions and also plays exactly like Olimar otherwise. It's an acceptable type of alt, like the Koopalings.

The other clone trio don't work at all due to having too many unique move options. Alph is easily able to be split apart, but it might not happen until more Pikmin themselves come out. Having multiple Pikmin for him would be better than just replacing the Purple with Rock. It doesn't help that Purple and Rock are similar in concept, making it harder to separate on that alone. So it's not like you could just as easily do Red/Blue/Yellow for Olimar and White/Purple/Rock for Alph. It's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Camc10]

At least Alph has the same proportions and also plays exactly like Olimar otherwise. It's an acceptable type of alt, like the Koopalings.

The other clone trio don't work at all due to having too many unique move options. Alph is easily able to be split apart, but it might not happen until more Pikmin themselves come out. Having multiple Pikmin for him would be better than just replacing the Purple with Rock. It doesn't help that Purple and Rock are similar in concept, making it harder to separate on that alone. So it's not like you could just as easily do Red/Blue/Yellow for Olimar and White/Purple/Rock for Alph. It's a bit more complicated than that.

Then main concept for a Alph clone was "Rock Pikmin only"

 

[Superyoshiom]

People saying Dr. Mario can't be an alternate costume confuse me. They can easily give his pills the properties of fireballs and give him FLUDD. Maybe make it look aesthetically different like make the fluid inside different (like the kind of stuff they have in hospitals).

Also, there's the fact that Dr. Mario is literally just Mario in an alternate costume.

 

[geoluminescent]

Thought: Take Bowser Jr. out of the Clown Car. Make him a weird Bowser-Squirtle hybrid, with a shell-spin and a fireball, and give him a down-b transformation into Shadow Mario, using his paintbrush to space and zone like a weird mix between Mario and Marth.

Then, give the Clown Car to the Koopalings. Different ones can peek out for different attacks based on their bossfights, possibly on a cycle. Lots of weird and cool stuff someone can do once they've figured out what changes the leader and how; definitely a high skill-level character.

 

[Radical Bones]

I like the Alolan Raichu for one reason

Psychic AND Electric attacks at once instead of two individual fighters. Raichu is already unique


Aww **** it it's not even 30 minutes and I already violated my own "don't talk characters for 24 hours". Well played

A-Raichu would actually be super fun to play as in Smash. Hovering surfboard character who attacks with Psychic moves. I'd be into that.

Put Funky Kong in too and we've got a gnarly time ahead.

 

[Opossum]

I noticed that when animal crossing is mentioned the rep that appears almost 75 percent of the time is Isseble ...... why?
I feel like Mr Ressetti would work much better and has greater moveset potential. I also feel he’s more iconic. Feel free to eat me alive for saying so....

Isabelle is marketed as strong as most Mario characters, and is the face of the franchise these days. I think it says something that she was placed in Mario Kart 8 alongside Villager and Link. Honestly now that the Inklings are in, she's one of the few characters yet to be included in Smash that I'd call a Nintendo all-star.

 

[Camc10]

People saying Dr. Mario can't be an alternate costume confuse me. They can easily give his pills the properties of fireballs and give him FLUDD. Maybe make it look aesthetically different like make the fluid inside different (like the kind of stuff they have in hospitals).

Also, there's the fact that Dr. Mario is literally just Mario in an alternate costume.

Dr Mario has his "own" moveset though, especially now if Mario gets a rework in Smash 5. Instead of being a Mario clone, he'll just be Melee Mario.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Then main concept for a Alph clone was "Rock Pikmin only"

And isn't worth it overall except as a last-second clone. But it takes a lot of work to make the Rock Pikmin models and different properties, far more than the other clones did. Which is why it didn't work in time.

More should be done to make it interesting. As is, giving Alph the Rock Pikmin while staying an alt works just fine. There's a lot more uniqueness than a Purple Pikmin remodel that can be found, but the fact there's no new Pikmin to give him at this time makes him harder to separate while giving him more than a single slightly unique difference. Again, the fact Alph and Olimar play exactly the same in their home game and would use the same Pikmin means they do work well enough as alts. What's important is completely new gameplay features. One single Pikmin is barely enough to justify it.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I'm keeping my expectations tame with 5-7 newcomers on the base roster. As for who I think is most plausible, I'm not sure. Aside from the Inklings, there wasn't anyone who I thought was guaranteed. Even after Smash Switch's reveal, my opinion hasn't changed.


Using DLC to promote new games seems like something blatantly obvious that Nintendo should really take advantage of. Might as well promote your upcoming products by advertising a few characters in one of the most anticipated games on the Switch.

What I think will happen is we'll see 8-11 Newcomers, and then the rest done through DLC to promote new games and new IP. Inklings, Spring Man, Isabelle, Dixie, Paper Mario, Bandana Dee, A new Pokemon, Rex & Pyra, Takamaru, a Rhythm Heaven character, and a 3rd Party (My pick is the Hero from Dragon Quest.)

It's hard to predict the amount of newcomers when we don't really know the true nature of the game, like how much of it is derived from Smash 4? I don't mean as in it's a port, because it's pretty obvious by now that it isn't, but that doesn't mean it isn't borrowing more stuff from its predecessor than any past installment has done before. If it does borrow a lot of stuff then that's uncharted territory for us, not only in regards to predicting the amount of newcomers (and new content in general), but also as far as cuts go. If no or very few cuts are made do we really expect the roster to near the 70s? It seems like a bit of a crazy number, and it'd be very difficult to balance.

My guess would be ~10 newcomers, clones excluded, but that's purely a gut feeling. I think an ARMS character and Decidueye are very likely, and we're probably getting another 3rd party character too, but beyond that it's hard to say.

As for your second question, absolutely. I think this game is coming out at a fantastic point in the Switch's lifespan, it really can take full advantage of future releases to keep the console's incredibly strong momentum going. I'm expecting it to get continuous DLC for longer than Smash 4 did, although characters might not come out at as fast a pace seeing that a lot of Smash 4's early DLC were veterans and semi-clones, and we've kind of run out of those.

I agree. Also, I feel like if it was done this way, it would've/would/is lightening the workload a lot for Sakurai and the development team. It's like, "Okay, let's take a good bit of content from this really awesome game, that was unfortunately on a failed system, but change enough of it, and add enough new stuff to make it a new game on a successful system. We might see minimal cuts this time around, but also the fewest amount of newcomers. However, if that ups the quality and other content of the game, I'm here for it.

Here’s a refreshing twist on a rather tired topic! Who are some clone characters you’d WANT to see added? Maybe characters that just make sense to be a “easy” clone? For me, I’d love to see Alph branch out a bit, Ninten as a clone of Ness, Funky Kong just because lol oh and Blood Falcon

Alph, Isabelle, Octolings, and Min Min I could see coming in as semi-clones, though they have enough to make them unique in their own right.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Well the results that came out were interesting. Both Takumi and Sakura were tied as the most wanted Hoshidian royals to be playable. While it was Ryoma and Hinoka who were the least popular.

Next will be a poll about the Nohrian royal family. Your choices are Xander, Leo, Camilla, and Elise.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Begin.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

People saying Dr. Mario can't be an alternate costume confuse me. They can easily give his pills the properties of fireballs and give him FLUDD. Maybe make it look aesthetically different like make the fluid inside different (like the kind of stuff they have in hospitals).

Also, there's the fact that Dr. Mario is literally just Mario in an alternate costume.

You're kidding yourself if you think people who played as Dr. Mario in previous games would be alright with that. If Dr. Mario was changed so that Megavitamins were had fire properties, he used F.L.U.D.D., and above all wasn't a stronger, slower Mario, which is the identity he has earned himself within the Smash series, I imagine that's make more people upset than happy. It'd feel like playing as Mario, not Dr. Mario.

You really think fans would be happy with this sudden change? That's the literal reason Dr. Mario was upgraded from an alt to a clone in the first place.

 

[Camc10]

And isn't worth it overall except as a last-second clone. But it takes a lot of work to make the Rock Pikmin models and different properties, far more than the other clones did. Which is why it didn't work in time.

More should be done to make it interesting. As is, giving Alph the Rock Pikmin while staying an alt works just fine. There's a lot more uniqueness than a Purple Pikmin remodel that can be found, but the fact there's no new Pikmin to give him at this time makes him harder to separate while giving him more than a single slightly unique difference. Again, the fact Alph and Olimar play exactly the same in their home game and would use the same Pikmin means they do work well enough as alts. What's important is completely new gameplay features. One single Pikmin is barely enough to justify it.

I don't think you know how good Alph could have been he'd like the stronger Lucina of Olimar. Maybe since Rock Pikmin don't grab items and are only uses for combat, even moreso than Purple Pikmin, there wouldn't be too much of a new for a pluck Pikmin Speical, and just have the Rock Pikmin either stay with Alph or just materializeduring his moves, along with having a weaker recovery due to the weight of them all, OR, since his Pikmin would always be with him, he could use Olimar's Up b from Brawl possibly.

 

[Wyoming]

I still don't see how Dr. Mario still actually existing as an alt (with supposed properties) but him existing as an individual character with different properties is bad.

It is semantics.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're kidding yourself if you think people who played as Dr. Mario in previous games would be alright with that. If Dr. Mario was changed so that Megavitamins were had fire properties, he used F.L.U.D.D., and above all wasn't a stronger, slower Mario, which is the identity he has earned himself within the Smash series, I imagine that's make more people upset than happy. It'd feel like playing as Mario, not Dr. Mario.

You really think fans would be happy with this sudden change? That's the literal reason Dr. Mario was upgraded from an alt to a clone in the first place.

Yeah, if it was as simple as the Megavitamins replacing it, it'd work. But it's not that simple. They're entirely different gameplay properties.

For that matter, Dr. Mario can't really use FLUDD. It makes no sense at all. It's an item that doesn't fit, and at best, they'd have to remake it to look like an entirely different thing(like a needle spraying liquid), but as cool as that could be, it wouldn't fix the Megavitamin/Fireball issue.

I don't think you know how good Alph could have been he'd like the stronger Lucina of Olimar. Maybe since Rock Pikmin don't grab items and are only uses for combat, even moreso than Purple Pikmin, there wouldn't be too much of a new for a pluck Pikmin Speical, and just have the Rock Pikmin either stay with Alph or just materializeduring his moves, along with having a weaker recovery due to the weight of them all, OR, since his Pikmin would always be with him, he could use Olimar's Up b from Brawl possibly.

Tether Recoveries are removed as Up B's for balance reasons, so that wouldn't have worked. But fair enough on the other points.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Also Dr. Mario has already been his own character in two games now. Making him an alt at this point would honestly be whiplash.

 

[Radical Bones]

Dr. Mario also never used the cape but no one seems to care that he has a 'Super Sheet'.

And I mean, I know it's cool and has one of the most badass names in Smash, but the Dr. Tornado is kinda just nothing.

If you really want to play as Dr. Mario there'd be more Megavitamins, Viruses, and even the X-Ray machine in his moveset. His Smash iteration is just a lazy throw together IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

Then main concept for a Alph clone was "Rock Pikmin only"

....no, no it wasn't.

-Alph was considered for clone status.
-Rock Pikmin were planned to be incorporated into the Pikmin set "if possible".

Both concepts are completely independent of each other.

With nothing ever said that Alph was considered as a clone that uses Rock Pikmin while Olimar doesn't, let alone a clone using exclusively Rock Pikmin.

 

[Wyoming]

I don't mind Alph being an alt as much as Olimar's character/concept is about commanding Pikmin to do his bidding. If the other captains got in as alts akin to the Villagers I wouldn't say no. Conceptually they are the leader and an alt can reflect that.

Dr. Mario, if he wasn't in Melee, I could understand being alt....but he was and he was his own character despite the clone status. That makes it difficult to justify doing and I am against it.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Dr. Mario also never used the cape but no one seems to care that he has a 'Super Sheet'.

And I mean, I know it's cool and has one of the most badass names in Smash, but the Dr. Tornado is kinda just nothing.

If you really want to play as Dr. Mario there'd be more Megavitamins, Viruses, and even the X-Ray machine in his moveset. His Smash iteration is just a lazy throw together IMO.

Kinda the point isn't it? He's in because he's easy to make.

Plus I think making a character like Dr. Mario unique would just annoy more people. Like why does Mario get two unique movesets? Why not include a character that isn't Mario in a lab coat?

 

[ColietheGoalie]

See, "scraping the bottom of the barrel" as a term implies that only inferior stuff is left, which I don't think is true.

Objectively, the grade-A Nintendo all-stars were 90% covered by the original Smash. I can probably count on my hands the number of video game characters that are actually worldwide sensations, so it's not like Smash has been surviving on those types of characters and is now running out. Mario is the poster child that the world at large knows and cares about, and he's always been there.

However, many of the characters added in Smash 2-4 are fantastic additions. I personally think someone like Villager is great, and he's hardly a an all-star. I'd rather have interesting characters than try to fill some fame quota. Obviously, there needs to be some buzz to sell the game (hence third-party guests), and relevance/fame is considered to a degree, but most fans of the game will be fine with characters that aren't among the all-time most famous, provided they bring something to the table.

Honestly, this is an exciting time to be a Smash fan, because we can start getting some less famous but beloved fighters, and start introducing people to new/obscure characters. Ness/Falcon certainly benefited from being in Smash, and others can too. A lot of times the "heroes" of games can be a little vanilla, so the idea of getting side characters or one-off villains is intriguing.

...

Also, I'm not sure where this cynical "Smash is just a means of peddling other franchises" concept came from. Other than like, maybe half a dozen fighters, the roster isn't a marketing tool. Dr. Mario, Pit, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, Villager, Diddy Kong, Metaknight, King Dedede, BOwser Jr, Sheik, Olimar, Wario, Wolf, Little Mac... these kinds of characters weren't shilling anything. Other than Fire Emblem/Pokemon and a few stages, we've never had Smash trying to include future content to bring attention to it. It's always been a celebration of the past, and is usually a generation behind with it's content. Splatoon? Now part of that past, so it gets in. But they weren't cramming it in Smash WiiU just to promote things. That's not how Smash has ever run really.

 

[Radical Bones]

Kinda the point isn't it? He's in because he's easy to make.

Plus I think making a character like Dr. Mario unique would just annoy more people. Like why does Mario get two unique movesets? Why not include a character that isn't Mario in a lab coat?

Mario could easily justify having two movesets because it's Mario, arguably the world's most iconic video game character. There are a lot of characters in the game that could have two versions of the same character. In fact, I'd rather have Classic Link, Twilight Link and Wild Link in and unique over some of the other oddball choices people throw around these days. That way, I can pick my favourite version of the character.

 

[BluePikmin11]

When I think about Animal Crossing newcomers and why people don't seem to want characters from that series...

Why wouldn't you want to play as a cute puppy assistant?

Why wouldn't you want to play as a mole that meta-rambles on your wrong doings in Animal Crossing?

Who wouldn't you want to play as a tanuki merchant who dominates the world of capitalism?

The above AC candidates I mentioned are ones that I would all love to to see in Smash! I think we are probably going to get two newcomers at best, but add in someone like Resetti maybe, and you got a sick, potential selection of Animal Crossing characters that you can use to beat the living crap out your friends with.

 

[Troykv]

See, "scraping the bottom of the barrel" as a term implies that only inferior stuff is left, which I don't think is true.

Objectively, the grade-A Nintendo all-stars were 90% covered by the original Smash. I can probably count on my hands the number of video game characters that are actually worldwide sensations, so it's not like Smash has been surviving on those types of characters and is now running out. Mario is the poster child that the world at large knows and cares about, and he's always been there.

However, many of the characters added in Smash 2-4 are fantastic additions. I personally think someone like Villager is great, and he's hardly a an all-star. I'd rather have interesting characters than try to fill some fame quota. Obviously, there needs to be some buzz to sell the game (hence third-party guests), and relevance/fame is considered to a degree, but most fans of the game will be fine with characters that aren't among the all-time most famous, provided they bring something to the table.

Honestly, this is an exciting time to be a Smash fan, because we can start getting some less famous but beloved fighters, and start introducing people to new/obscure characters. Ness/Falcon certainly benefited from being in Smash, and others can too. A lot of times the "heroes" of games can be a little vanilla, so the idea of getting side characters or one-off villains is intriguing.

...

Also, I'm not sure where this cynical "Smash is just a means of peddling other franchises" concept came from. Other than like, maybe half a dozen fighters, the roster isn't a marketing tool. Dr. Mario, Pit, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, Villager, Diddy Kong, Metaknight, King Dedede, BOwser Jr, Sheik, Olimar, Wario, Wolf, Little Mac... these kinds of characters weren't shilling anything. Other than Fire Emblem/Pokemon and a few stages, we've never had Smash trying to include future content to bring attention to it. It's always been a celebration of the past, and is usually a generation behind with it's content. Splatoon? Now part of that past, so it gets in. But they weren't cramming it in Smash WiiU just to promote things. That's not how Smash has ever run really.

Roy kind of had the recency stuff in his side, but choosing him was essencially because Sakurai was searching ideas for clones, Roy just ended up being a good option...

And Pokémon just lives with their current generation, they ended up being recognizable during that age after all.

The only character that I'm (and probably everyone) sure it was choose to be in the game for promocional purposes was Corrin (they make it into the game in the end because Sakurai actually saw potential in them... but the original idea to put them came out of promocional purposes)

I still don't like them... just a little the appearance of Female Corrin but **** them anyway.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Mario could easily justify having two movesets because it's Mario, arguably the world's most iconic video game character. There are a lot of characters in the game that could have two versions of the same character. In fact, I'd rather have Classic Link, Twilight Link and Wild Link in and unique over some of the other oddball choices people throw around these days. That way, I can pick my favourite version of the character.

I mean, we already have so something like Paper Mario isn't that farfetched.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Isabelle is monstrously popular, and she's always the primary character used in advertising. I honestly think Animal Crossing can get more than two characters, but if we only get two, it'll most likely be Isabelle.

Come on, she’s already in Mario Kart, man! The least we need is overrepresentation.

 

[Radical Bones]

I wouldn't be surprised if we got both Isabelle and Tom Nook in this game. There's just so much to work with in Animal Crossing. Plus, the game is so popular and it only has one rep which seems crazy to me. We all know that when the eventually AC game comes out on the Switch it'll be a huge deal.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's an idea - what if the thing we get to replace Palutena's Guidance is

Spoiler

Cranky's Rants?

I NEED THAT SO BAD!!!!!!
Two other cool options would to bring back Snake's Codec Conversations or Doc Louis's advice to Little Mac.

 

[Camc10]

I NEED THAT SO BAD!!!!!!
Two other cool options would to bring back Snake's Codec Conversations or Doc Louis's advice to Little Mac.

Or Biff from ARMS, but he doesnt really have a voice ingame.