Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[NintenRob]

Did Shulk ever appear in Smash before he was turned playable? Rosalina? Greninja? Mega Man? Pac-Man? Palutena? Robin?

A character doesn't have to have precedence in the series to be a viable, likely choice for Smash Bros. Bandana Dee is a staple of the Kirby series at this point, and I'd say he's more likely than anyone else from the series.

This

Diddy Kong also didn't appear until he was Playable

 

[Hinata]

Palutena was actually in Pit's old Final Smash, had a trophy, and appeared in the Subspace Emissary.

Sorry to play buzzkill here

Ah, did she? Damn, I don't remember enough about Brawl...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Frankly if the clone trio had stayed alts, I think a lot of the din both sides create would've been mitigated, partly because we would've been none the wiser, and partly because the sycophancy towards roster decisions would've left people defending the choice like they do every other. It's not happening at this point, but it's an interesting hypothetical nonetheless.

No one seems all too shook up that Alph isn't unique.

idk, I know a few people (myself included) who'd be upset with Dr. Mario regulated to an alt

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Did Shulk ever appear in Smash before he was turned playable? Rosalina? Greninja? Mega Man? Pac-Man? Palutena? Robin?

A character doesn't have to have precedence in the series to be a viable, likely choice for Smash Bros. Bandana Dee is a staple of the Kirby series at this point, and I'd say he's more likely than anyone else from the series.

I'm aware that characters don't have to have made an appearance, but for the amount of time that guys been around, not seeing him get any representation is a little alarming. Meanwhile, knuckle has been here since brawl. Those characters you named either weren't a thing yet, were 3rd party, or part of dead franchises. Your point hardly holds any water.

 

[NintenRob]

I'm aware that characters don't have to have made an appearance, but for the out of time that guys been around, not seeing him get any representation is a little alarming. Meanwhile, knuckle has been here since brawl. Those characters you named either weren't a thing yet, were 3rd party, or part of dead franchises. Your point hardly holds any water.

Knuckle Joe?

And people complain about Bandana Dee just being a generic enemy (which he isn't)

Knuckle Joe actually IS a generic enemy.

It'd be like making Hammer Bro a playable character, who has also been an assist trophy a couple of times.


Knuckle Joe comes across as the sort of character people who haven't actually played Kirby before ask for.

 

[masterluigi1]

Because being clones fits their character?

I will admit that Dark Pit could use some more changes to his moveset, but even then he just needs a few changes and he'll be fine.

If being a clone fits their character then id rather not have them. If I want to play marth I will play marth. i dont like character inclusions just for the sake of inclusions.

Lets say for example your top ten most wanted characters were not added to the base roster. Would you then be ok if sakurai added them afterwards all as clones of cpt falcon?

 

[N3ON]

idk, I know a few people (myself included) who'd be upset with Dr. Mario regulated to an alt

Pretend it's 2014 for a sec though. Frankly I think after few expected him to return for Smash 4, people would just be happy he was playable again rather than upset at his status. He, of all characters, was actually predicted to return as an alt as often as his own character iirc.

 

[Hinata]

I'm aware that characters don't have to have made an appearance, but for the amount of time that guys been around, not seeing him get any representation is a little alarming. Meanwhile, knuckle has been here since brawl. Those characters you named either weren't a thing yet, were 3rd party, or part of dead franchises. Your point hardly holds any water.

I just don't see why Sakurai would choose a dime-a-dozen enemy that he's been more than content to shove into an assist role for the past two games over someone like Bandana Dee, who has essentially become a main character of the Kirby series.

But hey, nobody can predict this crazy son of a ***** anyway.

 

[Yellowlord]

But hey, nobody can predict this crazy son of a ***** anyway.

Your avatar makes quite a lot of sense for this statement.

But yeah, I do have to wonder what Sakurai will do with representing Kirby this time around...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Pretend it's 2014 for a sec though. Frankly I think after few expected him to return for Smash 4, people would just be happy he was playable again rather than upset at his status. He, of all characters, was actually predicted to return as an alt as often as his own character iirc.

Didn't Sakurai say the main reason Dr. Mario was upgraded to clone status was so he could appeal to the Melee fanbase, thinking they'd be upset with him just being an alt?

Lets say for example your top ten most wanted characters were not added to the base roster. Would you then be ok if sakurai added them afterwards all as clones of cpt falcon?

I don't like using the word "fallacy" but that's a slippery slope argument that doesn't prove anything about the point that I'm actually making, mainly because it makes assumptions that I never did. My main argument was that Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina's roles as clones actually fit their character accurately. Characters like King K. Rool, Ridley, and Waddle Dee, all of whom are heavily requested, don't share similarities with any other characters that make them being clones/semi-clones a possibility, so that makes no sense.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The only generic enemies of any game who should ever even be remotely considered for Smash Brothers playable roster status are Koopa Troopa and Goomba.

You want a generic henchmen in Smash. Well, there you go. Pretty much the only two iconic generic henchmen in all of gaming really.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

The only generic enemies of any game who should ever even be remotely considered for Smash Brothers playable roster status are Koopa Troopa and Goomba.

You want a generic henchmen in Smash. Well, there you go. Pretty much the only two iconic generic henchmen in all of gaming really.

You seem to be forgetting Shy Guy

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Knuckle Joe?

And people complain about Bandana Dee just being a generic enemy (which he isn't)

Knuckle Joe actually IS a generic enemy.

It'd be like making Hammer Bro a playable character, who has also been an assist trophy a couple of times.


Knuckle Joe comes across as the sort of character people who haven't actually played Kirby before ask for.

Knuckle Joe was a pretty rare enemy in the older games, had multiple appearances in the anime, and had an AT and trophy in brawl. He returned in smash 4, and probably had a trophy too (can't really remember that part) meanwhile, bandana gets NOTHING. I'm not saying bandana doesn't deserve a spot (he's been showing up more in the recent games), but as far as Kirby goes in smash, Knuckle Joe is definitely considered more important to the series. Otherwise we'd already have seen bandana in some compacity.

 

[Opossum]

Frankly if the clone trio had stayed alts, I think a lot of the din both sides create would've been mitigated, partly because we would've been none the wiser, and partly because the sycophancy towards roster decisions would've left people defending the choice like they do every other. It's not happening at this point, but it's an interesting hypothetical nonetheless.

No one seems all too shook up that Alph isn't unique.

Honestly I kinda feel bad about Alph. I didn't even really want him as his own character, but being the only unique non-Koopaling alt to not get upgraded is a bit of a bummer.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

You seem to be forgetting Shy Guy

Him too. But to a lesser degree.

More people know Koopa Troopa and Goomba.

But as far as move set potential goes Koopa Troopa has the most.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Him too. But to a lesser degree.

More people know Koopa Troopa and Goomba.

But as far as move set potential goes Koopa Troopa has the most.

I'd argue Shy Guy has the most moveset potential honestly.

There are tons of variants to draw inspiration from.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'd argue Shy Guy has the most moveset potential honestly.

There are tons of variants to draw inspiration from.

If variants are what you're using. Koopa Troopa has done quite a lot over the years. He's also the most recognizable to main stream audiences as ''Hey it's the turtles from Mario!"

Boos are also pretty iconic though too, but I don't know if you make them playable really. Even King Boo would be a stretch.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

If variants are what you're using. Koopa Troopa has done quite a lot over the years. He's also the most recognizable to main stream audiences as ''Hey it's the turtles from Mario!"

Boos are also pretty iconic though too, but I don't know if you make them playable really. Even King Boo would be a stretch.

The Koopa Troopa variants are a little more obscure though, with really the only exception being Koopa Paratroopas. Off the top of my head I can really only think of Dry Bones, Beach Koopas, and the Electro-Koopas from Super Mario Sunshine. I mean unless you wanna count Koopa-like enemies like Spinies, Lakitus, and Hammer Bros., which I don't.

With Shy Guy there's a lot more variants that could make for more obvious and varied moves. Spear Guys, Fly Guys, Stilt Guys, Petal Guys, and Snifits to name a few.

 

[NintenRob]

Knuckle Joe was a pretty rare enemy in the older games, had multiple appearances in the anime, and had an AT and trophy in brawl. He returned in smash 4, and probably had a trophy too (can't really remember that part) meanwhile, bandana gets NOTHING. I'm not saying bandana doesn't deserve a spotspot (he's been showing up more in the recent games), but as far as Kirby goes in smash, Knuckle Joe is definitely considered more important to the series. Otherwise we'd already have seen bandana in some compacity.

First of all, assist trophy =/= importance. I mean, most of Mario's assists are just common enemies. Some characters just suit the assist trophy role.


Also Bandana Dee wasn't really as important back then as he is now. His importance was still be established. Now it has been established.

And again, being an assist trophy doesn't mean anything, same goes for who and who doesn't get a regular trophy. Regular old Waddle Dee didn't even get a trophy. Mean while in Brawl, we had a lot nobody characters from Twilight Princess who no one cares about. And a reminder that Diddy Kong didn't get a trophy in Melee when K Rool and Dixie did.

Knuckle Joe is just an enemy with cool moves so he makes a good assist trophy. Bandana Dee is a character who grows more prominent and more popular with each passing game.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The Koopa Troopa variants are a little more obscure though, with really the only exception being Koopa Paratroopas. Off the top of my head I can really only think of Dry Bones, Beach Koopas, and the Electro-Koopas from Super Mario Sunshine. I mean unless you wanna count Koopa-like enemies like Spinies, Lakitus, and Hammer Bros., which I don't.

With Shy Guy there's a lot more variants that could make for more obvious and varied moves. Spear Guys, Fly Guys, Stilt Guys, Petal Guys, and Snifits to name a few.

He has potential for sure but again I doubt he'd be who'd Sakurai would go for if he were picking a henchmen. He's just not as immediately recognizable to a mass audience.

 

[mario123007]

What I thought would be cool would be if they did homage to Nintendo characters as Blades. Would love to them do something like Mr. EAD (a

Probably Legend of Zelda, or maybe Pit and Palutena from Kid Icarus would be better.

Unfortunately, I'll never realize my dream of an Alex Jones blades that just yells about interdimensional demons. The blade quest would be 11/10.

Even though I never like that guy, I will just say keep real people out of this.

 

[N3ON]

Didn't Sakurai say the main reason Dr. Mario was upgraded to clone status was so he could appeal to the Melee fanbase, thinking they'd be upset with him just being an alt?

When even the diehard fanbase largely anticipated his return as a costume, if at all, I think Sakurai's fears may have been unfounded.

Honestly I kinda feel bad about Alph. I didn't even really want him as his own character, but being the only unique non-Koopaling alt to not get upgraded is a bit of a bummer.

Understandable. Well, under this hypothetical, there'd be no unequal promotion to feel letdown about.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Knuckle Joe is definitely considered more important to the series. Otherwise we'd already have seen bandana in some compacity.

Hey remember that time Knuckle Joe was the last one to stand by Dedede's side in Revenge of the King?
Or when he was one of the four heroes that reassembled Magolor's ship?
How about when he was the sole ally of Kirby when the Dreamstalk took over Dream Land?
Or when all the color of the world was drained and he was there to punch away the hands of Claycia from grabbing Kirby and Elline?
Or when Pop Star was mechanized and Knuckle Joe showed up to hand Kirby food?
Or that time he went through an entire tournament as Kirby's sidekick to defeat Kirby's clones and win some cake?

Yeah me neither

 

[N3ON]

Honestly no one would give a **** about Knuckle Joe if he weren't an AT.

It'd be all about Bonkers, baby. As it should be.

 

[masterluigi1]

I don't like using the word "fallacy" but that's a slippery slope argument that doesn't prove anything about the point that I'm actually making, mainly because it makes assumptions that I never did. My main argument was that Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, and Lucina's roles as clones actually fit their character accurately. Characters like King K. Rool, Ridley, and Waddle Dee, all of whom are heavily requested, don't share similarities with any other characters that make them being clones/semi-clones a possibility, so that makes no sense.

No...the point you any many others here were saying that you don't care if clones are added as extra as long because they don't take away from the base roster.
before you all started replying to me that point was never brought up.
It really doesn't matter who these characters are clones of anyway. the fact of the matter is that I feel they should not be added unless they give something unique gamplay wise to the roster. not just adding a character simply just to have the character.

and i think many people here agree with this to some degree otherwise they would be okay with their most wanted characters being included as cloned extra characters like i said.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Been gone a little bit, still clone discussion... Clones are cool to some of us, they don't take much work, blah blah blah stop talking about it please. This conversation is completely unproductive at this point.

Also, why are we talking about Knuckle Joe? He's a great AT. He's a fun and interesting Kirby enemy and copy power. He also carries no significance beyond a basic enemy in a Kirby game. Why on Earth would they take him over Dee?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

No...the point you any many others here were saying that you don't care if clones are added as extra as long because they don't take away from the base roster.
before you all started replying to me that point was never brought up.
It really doesn't matter who these characters are clones of anyway. the fact of the matter is that I feel they should not be added unless they give something unique gamplay wise to the roster. not just adding a character simply just to have the character.

and i think many people here agree with this to some degree otherwise they would be okay with their most wanted characters being included as cloned extra characters like i said.

So you don't care about characters, you just care about movesets. Is that it?

 

[PLATINUM7]

He has potential for sure but again I doubt he'd be who'd Sakurai would go for if he were picking a henchmen. He's just not as immediately recognizable to a mass audience.

Not every character in Smash is or needs to be. We have entire series represented in Smash that are obscure or at least not recognisable to large audiences.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Lets say for example your top ten most wanted characters were not added to the base roster. Would you then be ok if sakurai added them afterwards all as clones of cpt falcon?

As long as they yell their name before each special (“Ridley Punch!!”)

Seriously though, I’d rather have a favourite character get in as a clone than get left off the roster. I like having characters ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, can we stop talking about how we have to stop talking about things? Like seriously, this is a general discussion thread before we have any concrete info on the game. Things are going to get debated/repeated. If the conversation at hand disinterest or annoys you, bring something else up and try to steer it another way instead of constantly trying to police what people “should” be talking about.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I don't wanna start arguing about clones, but I feel like there are better ways to use extra time.

Anyways, nobody ever listens to me as having Bonkers as a fifth Kirby rep. He's more of a mid-boss than a generic enemy (he was a mid-boss in Smash Run too). He's made consistent appearances throughout the whole series. A problem would be having three Kirby hammer fighters, but you could just change Kirby's side special.

There's also Bugzzy, who was most recently in Star Allies. He'd be our first bug-based fighter.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

jfc shut the **** up about clones. the real ****ing question in the debate is 'do i want clones in my game' if the answer yes, then let's ****ing hope every clone gets back in from pichu to lucina. if it's no then don't cry when lucina/doc/dp get cut because they're bloat. that ****ing said, they're the kind of bloat you can deal with from balance and resource standpoints. they're ****ing easy to make and as far as balance goes you can kinda lump their results in with their base, plus or minus whatever. they're easy to cut, 'cause they're bloat, but they're also easy to add, cause you just hit ctrl+c and ctrl+v and change some numbers/models. a clone ain't keeping ridley or whatever-the-**** you want out, sakurai is.

 

[PLATINUM7]

My heart will always belong to Gooey for a Kirby character.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Also, at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, can we stop talking about how we have to stop talking about things? Like seriously, this is a general discussion thread before we have any concrete info on the game. Things are going to get debated/repeated. If the conversation at hand disinterest or annoys you, bring something else up and try to steer it another way instead of constantly trying to police what people “should” be talking about.

As this was, at least in some capacity, directed at my comment, I suppose I could've worded my post a little better. I didn't mean to sound like "Let's stop talking about clones altogether". I was more directing it at the ceaseless conversation about clones hurting the game in some way, which is just not true. I get that not everyone has that understanding right away, but it comes up basically every day. And I see people who have been on this thread for as long/longer than myself getting caught up in heated arguments about the subject time and time again.

Perhaps to refine my own post about not wanting to see that discussion any more, I should've suggested something new to talk about as well, so my bad on that. I guess my post was not constructive either.

Now to present what is hopefully a more interesting topic,

What is your ideal new stage? Describe mechanics, such as platforms, whether they move or not, potential hazards, etc. Keep in mind, this is your ideal stage! Just because the stage has potential for hazards or something, that doesn't mean they have to be there if you don't want them.

My ideal stage would be the Chibi Robo Living Room from the original Chibi Robo game. The fighting would take place on the Living Room table, where there are often books trash items like empty bags of chips. I would want it to be a competitively legal stage, so those objects would just be serving as platforms. I think it would have two platforms. On the left side, the bag of chips as a lower platform, maybe about as high as a lower battlefield platform. On the other side, a stack of 3 or so books. That platform would be just shy of twice as high as the bag of chips.
In the background, you could see the original family walk around and go about their day. The stage would have a day/night cycle. During the day, the family is out. But at night, the toys all come out and liven up the background. None of them interact with the stage, though.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

What is your ideal new stage? Describe mechanics, such as platforms, whether they move or not, potential hazards, etc. Keep in mind, this is your ideal stage! Just because the stage has potential for hazards or something, that doesn't mean they have to be there if you don't want them.

My ideal stage would be the Chibi Robo Living Room from the original Chibi Robo game. The fighting would take place on the Living Room table, where there are often books trash items like empty bags of chips. I would want it to be a competitively legal stage, so those objects would just be serving as platforms. I think it would have two platforms. On the left side, the bag of chips as a lower platform, maybe about as high as a lower battlefield platform. On the other side, a stack of 3 or so books. That platform would be just shy of twice as high as the bag of chips.
In the background, you could see the original family walk around and go about their day. The stage would have a day/night cycle. During the day, the family is out. But at night, the toys all come out and liven up the background. None of them interact with the stage, though.

The battle theater from Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.

Tons of room for potential. You could have the audience throw hazards or even helpful items at you, you could have the stage scenery fall, and you could even have a unique mechanic where the layout and aesthetics of the stage change, similar to Gamer; for example the Rougeport set would have platforms in the form of the roofs, the Boggly Woods set would have a single platform to the right with a tree, and the Glitz Pit set would have no platforms. Furthermore, plenty of random stuff happens in battles, from basins falling on your head to fog appearing, that can be used for inspiration.

And that's ignoring all the fantastic music one could pull from that game.

 

[Deleted member]

Pretend it's 2014 for a sec though. Frankly I think after few expected him to return for Smash 4, people would just be happy he was playable again rather than upset at his status. He, of all characters, was actually predicted to return as an alt as often as his own character iirc.

You don't remember correctly.
Unless you mean "pretty much no one predicted either". That's literally the only way that's true.

At least prior to Lucina's reveal and what Sakurai said about her.
Then more savvy people such as myself predicted that Dr. Mario would be a bonus addition just like her.

And honestly, you're kidding yourself if you legitimately believe people "would just be happy he was playable again" when he'd have nothing that made them like playing as Dr. Mario in the first place.
Hell, he wouldn't even have had the ****in' Megavitamins since even tweaking one move would have been grounds for separation. As a costume, he'd literally just been the regular fire-spewing, F.L.U.D.D.-wielding, Meteor Smash F-Airing, etc. Mario, but with a different outfit.
And you really expect people that actually liked playing as Dr. Mario in Melee to have been pleased about that?

When even the diehard fanbase largely anticipated his return as a costume, if at all, I think Sakurai's fears may have been unfounded.

I am only going to ask this once, N3ON.
Please stop speaking for others whenever you have honestly no idea what you're talking about.
You've done this before with Crash in regards to his fan support, and made assumptions that were completely inaccurate.

 

[NintenRob]

I want an inaccurate Paper Jam.

Inaccurate in the sense it takes elements from the past of both series

 

[N3ON]

edit: tomorrow better words, now only sleep

 

[ColietheGoalie]

As this was, at least in some capacity, directed at my comment, I suppose I could've worded my post a little better. I didn't mean to sound like "Let's stop talking about clones altogether". I was more directing it at the ceaseless conversation about clones hurting the game in some way, which is just not true. I get that not everyone has that understanding right away, but it comes up basically every day. And I see people who have been on this thread for as long/longer than myself getting caught up in heated arguments about the subject time and time again.

Perhaps to refine my own post about not wanting to see that discussion any more, I should've suggested something new to talk about as well, so my bad on that. I guess my post was not constructive either.

Now to present what is hopefully a more interesting topic,

What is your ideal new stage? Describe mechanics, such as platforms, whether they move or not, potential hazards, etc. Keep in mind, this is your ideal stage! Just because the stage has potential for hazards or something, that doesn't mean they have to be there if you don't want them.

My ideal stage would be the Chibi Robo Living Room from the original Chibi Robo game. The fighting would take place on the Living Room table, where there are often books trash items like empty bags of chips. I would want it to be a competitively legal stage, so those objects would just be serving as platforms. I think it would have two platforms. On the left side, the bag of chips as a lower platform, maybe about as high as a lower battlefield platform. On the other side, a stack of 3 or so books. That platform would be just shy of twice as high as the bag of chips.
In the background, you could see the original family walk around and go about their day. The stage would have a day/night cycle. During the day, the family is out. But at night, the toys all come out and liven up the background. None of them interact with the stage, though.

To be fair, it wasn’t 100% directed at you, as yours was just the latest of a few comments I’ve seen in the last while where people just pop in to say we’re wasting time/shouldn’t be talking about things etc.

As to your question, I really want a Bowser’s Castle stage finally. Something dramatic and dark, probably platforms over a lava pit, and of course a great selection of music (mostly from Bowser appearances of the past). As one who’s never shied away from hazards, I’d have the classic fireballs jumping up on either side, and maybe a Thwomp somewhere that comes crashing down on the stage when someone goes under it

 

[Cutie Gwen]

IT'S TIME TO TALK ABOUT STUFF I SAW IN THE LAST BUNCHA PAGES!
Dark Pit: While he is a clone of Pit in Uprising, his personality's the opposite and he hates the idea of serving anyone, giving him his own sense of identity, so no, him being a clone in Smash doesn't necessarily 'fit' his character. It fits his ORIGIN STORY. Also give him a rework so he uses other weapon classes than Pit.

Third party cuts: If you think the third party characters aren't a good addition you're wrong, they cause a LOT of hype and Sakurai knows this, Cloud could be a hassle to get but everyone else is on pretty good terms I'd say. Especially Sonic and Bayonetta.

Knuckle Joe: While he IS a generic enemy who really shouldn't be added, I think people kinda neglect he had the most notable role in Right Back At Ya when it came to the mooks, he was a reoccurring character who went through character development. Closest any other regular enemy got in that show was Waddle Doo being a commander for the Waddle Dees in Dedede's army, which while he appeared more, he didn't do anything significant really

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Now to present what is hopefully a more interesting topic,
What is your ideal new stage? Describe mechanics, such as platforms, whether they move or not, potential hazards, etc. Keep in mind, this is your ideal stage! Just because the stage has potential for hazards or something, that doesn't mean they have to be there if you don't want them.

Wouldn't mind a floating stage which focuses on Super Mario Odyssey and the kingdoms. Have the Odyssey launch and then travel to different kingdoms with unique features, enemies,etc which relates to each kingdom/area. Start off on the Odyssey and then move onto Cascade Kingdom, New Donk City, Mushroom Kingdom,etc.

Although New Donk City ilooks to be a popular pick as a solo stage too and would be neat.

You don't remember correctly.
Then more savvy people such as myself predicted that Dr. Mario would be a bonus addition just like her.

Please stop speaking for others whenever you have honestly no idea what you're talking about.

Heh

As to your question, I really want a Bowser’s Castle stage finally. Something dramatic and dark, probably platforms over a lava pit, and of course a great selection of music (mostly from Bowser appearances of the past). As one who’s never shied away from hazards, I’d have the classic fireballs jumping up on either side, and maybe a Thwomp somewhere that comes crashing down on the stage when someone goes under it

Agreed.

Would love a Bowsers Castle stage, lots of different ways to go about it and represent each iteration, enemies and Bowser himself in parts.