Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CannonStreak]

Which sounds better: Super Smash Bros MD or Super Smash Bros PhD?

I know you're not asking me, but I would like to give my input. Super Smash Bros MD sounds better to me.

 

[Kotor]

Lucina is too popular. If she gets cut. She'll just be Roy 2.0 until she's put in through DLC.

I'd rather have Lucina become a full-fledge unique character than be reduced to just a Marth costume, or cut entirely. And even if Lucina is cut from Smash Switch, her popularity will bring her back as DLC. I don't see her going anywhere.

Lucina wasn't even initially planned for Fire Emblem Warriors until Intelligent Systems told Koei Tecmo to put her in the game.

 

[N3ON]

I've been saying the same thing Sakurai said about Chrom, Ridley, and the clones for years almost word for word and nobody listened to me.

Probably got drowned out by all the other people voicing very similar sentiments. There's a reason those characters are divisive.

Still, Lucina's probably the most low-effort clone in Smash, next to Dr. Mario. She's literally just Marth without a tipper.

Roy was the first clone of Marth, imo we don't need a second Marth clone.

This is a totally different argument than before, but yeah, there's a lot of extenuating circumstances that lead FE to the situation it's in now and I don't imagine it will retain all the current characters in the future, though I don't know who specifically will get the axe.

 

[Starcutter]

I just realized I was trying to cap myself at ~75 characters in my previous roster, but I had a couple of undecided characters floating around that. So, THIS is my true roster.

I just added Cloud back, and I added Shovel Knight for an indie rep.


(also in the last one I forgot Inkling. Ooops)

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I've said this before, but the only reason I don't think it's entirely fair to complain about certain clones is because they don't take up enough assets or time to screw over any other characters. They take very little effort to make. Maybe they will for other low effort clones at worst, but they aren't a problem getting in the way of other, unique characters at this point. Especially now that DLC is fair game and will almost certainly be utilized again for the next Smash.

I will admit Dark Pit and Lucina's differences from their original counterparts are so miniscule that I find their additions to be rather pointless, but at the same time, they're also fairly harmless additions.

 

[N3ON]

I've said this before, but the only reason I don't think it's entirely fair to complain about certain clones is because they don't take up enough assets or time to screw over any other characters. They take very little effort to make. Maybe they will for other low effort clones at worst, but they aren't a problem getting in the way of other, unique characters at this point. Especially now that DLC is fair game and will almost certainly be utilized again for the next Smash.

I will admit Dark Pit and Lucina's differences from their original counterparts are so miniscule that I find their additions to be rather pointless, but at the same time, they're also fairly harmless additions.

If your argument is "why did we get [clone] when we could've gotten [original]", then yes, I agree. But if the issue arises from how people view the character or the series itself, then knowing they were an easy addition is not really addressing the issue.

 

[CBO0tz]

Dark Pit is at the top of the priority list for clone characters that need a moveset upgrade.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

If your argument is "why did we get [clone] when we could've gotten [original]", then yes, I agree. But if the issue arises from how people view the character or the series itself, then knowing they were an easy addition is not really addressing the issue.

True. If the case is instead that someone simply doesn't like or want the character to begin with, then that's perfectly fair, I won't get on their case over their opinion. Heck I was one of the people who was against Dark Pit getting in before Smash 4's base roster was revealed. I think time passing and the knowledge that he took so little effort to make just personally softened the blow for me.

 

[Starcutter]

They should just make dark pit's neutral B a weaker version of his final smash.

 

[A Distant Demon]

If your argument is "why did we get [clone] when we could've gotten [original]", then yes, I agree. But if the issue arises from how people view the character or the series itself, then knowing they were an easy addition is not really addressing the issue.

Then what is the issue? Because "free" content is a win-win situation. win-neutral at worst.

Fans of the character win, people who don't care didn't lose anything.

 

[TheSpitefulWolf]

i still say the clones should be all-or-nothing. if **** like lucina, dp, roy and doc stay in, then yink and pichu should return too.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I just want to play as Mario in the black coat without being stuck with a gimped moveset.

Is it really that bad to want Doc to be an alt instead of a clone?

 

[Hinata]

I actually made a pretty bare-bones layout for what a unique moveset for Dark Pit could look like a while back.

Spoiler

Normal Attacks


Jab Combo: The melee attack for the Staff in Kid Icarus: Uprising.

(3% first hit, 4% second hit, 6% final hit)


Forward Tilt: Smacks the opponent with a Palm. (9%)


Down Tilt: A single, crouched swing of the Staff. (10%)


Up Tilt: Swings a Blade above him. (8%)


Aerial Attacks


Neutral Air: Remains the same.


Up Air: Thrusts the Staff straight upwards. (15%)


Forward Air: Slashes in front of him with Claws. (13%)


Back Air: Spins around, swinging a Blade behind him. (13%)


Down Air: Brings a Club up over his head, and then swings it down quickly. Has a meteor effect. (18%)


Smash Attacks


Forward Smash: The melee attack for Claws in Kid Icarus: Uprising.

(2-3% every hit except for the final one, 13-18% on final hit)


Down Smash: Orbitars appear around Dark Pit, and then slam down on both sides of him. (15-25%)


Up Smash: Swings a Club upwards and over his head with great force. (20-25%)


Throws remain the same.




Special Attacks


Neutral Special: Dark Pit Staff. Pressing the button makes Dark Pit fire his staff straight ahead, with rapid fire being the default state. The rapid fire deals negligible damage, and little to no knockback. Its power comes from how rapidly it deals damage (think Palutena’s Heavenly Light special). The range isn’t that great in rapid fire mode, with the max range being about ¼ of Final Destination. If not used for a while, Dark Pit will be able to fire a single charged shot, which deals considerably more damage and knockback (from 1% every second with rapid fire to a solid 10%), has much greater range (about 1.5x the range of Pit’s Palutena Bow) and travels through enemies.


Up Special: Remains the same (or Pit’s Brawl Up-Special, to represent how Dark Pit can fly on his own for most of the game).


Down Special: Remains the same.


Side Special: Cannon Fire. When the button is pressed, Dark Pit pulls out a Cannon and fires one shot in the direction held. Projectile has a slight arc to it, and will do a considerable amount of damage upon impact. (8-9%) Possesses the same properties as his neutral special, in that not using it for a while (a longer period of time than the neutral special) will result in a charge shot that deals double damage, and travels farther.

 

[CBO0tz]

I just realized I was trying to cap myself at ~75 characters in my previous roster, but I had a couple of undecided characters floating around that. So, THIS is my true roster.

I just added Cloud back, and I added Shovel Knight for an indie rep.


(also in the last one I forgot Inkling. Ooops)

Wasn't Alph an alternate costume for Olimar? Why make him his own character?

I just want to play as Mario in the black coat without being stuck with a gimped moveset.

Is it really that bad to want Doc to be an alt instead of a clone?

Project M, my dude.​

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Then what is the issue? Because "free" content is a win-win situation. win-neutral at worst.

Fans of the character win, people who don't care didn't lose anything.

Personal opinion. There's people who don't care, but then there's people who dislike characters and would rather they not be in Smash at all to begin with.

Yeah, it can come off as petty and I'm positive that some people really do have petty reasons for it, but it's kind of an attitude thing, imo. People have a right to simply not want certain characters in. I can't really get on their case for that as long as they don't do anything like attack a given character's fans over it.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I guess I don't really get the salt with the clones at this point beyond the "rep" argument, which I find silly anyway. We've had these characters in for 4 years now. Do we really still have a problem with them?

Lucina, Doc, and Dark Pit were effectively extra. If someone inherently doesn't like the character, that's fine. But why remove something that isn't replaced with something you like? Just keep the character and use them as a punching bag.

Removing Lucina doesn't magically mean your character of choice will be added in their place. Removing a character like Robin doesn't mean a character of your choice gets in either.

The problem with the discussion of removing one character and replacing them with a specific other isn't necessarily how things work. That isn't to say that I know how it works or know of some secret development process, but the whole conversation reeks of "my favorite is more important than your favorite" when it comes to the "cut X, replace with Y" conversation.

This is, ultimately, why I would love to see more of a conversation involving less of a trade-off and more of a "I'd like to see X in addition to the rest of the roster." Wishing for something to be removed, while advocating for something you would prefer just seems kinda...selfish maybe? By default, that puts that character as inferior to others. Expecting everyone to be ok with somebody doing that, especially in a, perhaps "brash" manner is not always realistic in itself.

Not to make everybody sound like a jerk. Frankly, some are attempting a realistic conversation and I commend them for that.

I realize cuts are potentially coming whether I like them or not. I'm not living in a fantasy land where I think they're impossible. I just wish the conversation didn't head there, not for the down to earth realism of game development but for the, "If I were in charge, I'd cut this character for X reason and replace them with Y because of reason 1, reason 2, etc..."

Obviously I can't control what people want to talk about, frankly I encourage people to talk about what's on their mind. But just be aware of the inherent nature of the post, and why some may not simply accept the suggestions made.

 

[mario123007]

I know how blades works...Lemme....dream....To not have this little...frustrating....
Insert tons of rant about how Rex is the worst protagonist ever compared to Shulk in both personality AND ESPECIALLY design
A man can dream-....A man can dream...

Not saying Rex is the worst but....
This isn't spoiler but. ..
Rex is TERRIBLE at the end of chapter 3 VA wise and some points in chapter 6....he literally wasn't doing anything that's like a protagonist lol.

I get not liking all the waifu blades and thinking they're overly fanservice-y, but I don't think they necessarily take away from the great plot the game still had.

Or a more legit rant, there is a huge portion of Blades that are females....for some reason....
So good luck on finding 6 rare blade males when doing certain merc missions lol.

That being said when it comes to nale rare Blades. Perceval is the best. Hope he can be in Smash Bros regardless of him being a part of Rex or just an assist....

Okay I will enter the "One Newcomer Per Series" challenge FOR FUN
- Paper Mario if counted as mario rep. (Pauline if not)
- Dixie Kong Double Trouble
- Melissa Bergman
- Adeleine
- Wolf Link & Midna
- Kamek
- Mimikyu
- Krystal of kourse (kurse you if you hate her)
- Uh... Black Shadow
- A little hard here... I like Kumatora
- Ashley
FE- Fjorm
- Medusa
- Rex & Mythra
- King Hippo
- Brittany
- Isabelle
- Lip
- WIi Fit U trainer
(Yes they are a series) - A Mii revamp with elements from Wii Sports/Wii Party/Miitomo/Miitopia etc

Also I will do Third Party just For Fun
- Masked Lumen Sage
- Tails
- ZeRo
- Black Mage
- Chun-Li

I hope you had Fun reading it

This is gold lol.
Wouldn't it be better of Wii U Fit Trainer is a new alt costume for Wii Fit Trainer?

You know whats funny is the next most popular character (or Driver I should say) is definitely Nia but more people want to see Morag and Zeke. Just find it interesting.

Xenoblade just needs its own crossover game in the future.

Totally agree, I used to have a thought that characters from RWBY can be guess characters as DLC Blades in XC2. With RWBY starting to appear crossover games like BlazBlue, why not give Xenoblade for a try?

I mean you have Yang which uses knuckles, that is one of a Blade weapon in the game.

 

[Starcutter]

Wasn't Alph an alternate costume for Olimar? Why make him his own character?

I specified a little bit in my last post that it would be a very similar situation to Dark Pit or Lucina, where he's separated enough to warrant another character slot instead of an alt.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Project M, my dude.

Project M is not Smash for Switch.

 

[N3ON]

Then what is the issue? Because "free" content is a win-win situation. win-neutral at worst.

Fans of the character win, people who don't care didn't lose anything.

Right, but there are more people out there than fans and those apathetic. There's people who feel what they value about the game gets compromised by the addition or subtraction of something.

But wanting something gone isn't motivated by a hatred of that thing so much as it is by a fondness of the ultimate product. Suggesting something be removed is so that person can enjoy that product even more. Just because other people can and will disagree is not reason enough to censure that person for desiring what is, to them, the ideal.

Again the problem arises when one imposes that subjectivity on others, not simply for holding the belief. I would like a lot of characters in Smash gone, and I don't view Smash the same way you do. There is no correct way to view Smash; it's always going to be in the eye of the beholder.

In this vein, I believe those who seek to tell people they ought not desire cuts are encroaching just as much as those who seek to impose the cuts in the first place. Predicting is all well and good, but it's tangential to what people want out of a roster. If people want a purely Nintendo Smash, are they wrong for wanting the third-parties out? They'd be wrong should they expect it to happen, but they're not wrong for holding that desire, that value. They value the game for something else.

It comes down to what people want out of and value about Smash. And no one's opinion is more valid that anyone else's.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Personal opinion. There's people who don't care, but then there's people who dislike characters and would rather they not be in Smash at all to begin with.

Yeah, it can come off as petty and I'm positive that some people really do have petty reasons for it, but it's kind of an attitude thing, imo. People have a right to simply not want certain characters in. I can't really get on their case for that as long as they don't do anything like attack a given character's fans over it.

Exactly. Nobody has to like content, free or not. That doesn't really mean there's much real criticism to give on it. Not for you? K. Trying to act like it's an issue that it exists? Not nearly okay. The only real criticism at this point about the clones that are worth giving is the fact you need to complete tons of the games while using the character, which takes a lot of time and is tedious(albeit, that's kind of an issue with both Brawl and 4. Due to having a more generic single player mode options, bar the SSE, of course, you start to feel more like you're grinding for trophies than actually having fun playing something that challenges you).

Even then, that's more of an issue with poor single player mode designs. Honestly, it's why I miss the target tests, even the generic ones. Target Smash is neat, don't get me wrong, but it basically is just an evolved Homerun Contest while removing the challenge of figuring out the best paths for each Target Test(regardless of unique ones or the 5 generic version).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Dark Pit is at the top of the priority list for clone characters that need a moveset upgrade.

Not really. Being a clone of Pit is kind of his identity as a character. Quite literally. I would say give him Jet Orbitars and a better recovery, since in the games he can actually fly without aid. But, I like that Dark Pit is almost exactly the same as Pit. It's funny how accurate it is.

I don't think there's a reason to be upset about clones. Whether they're as similar as Dark Pit or as useless as Pichu, they're supposed to be fun little mini bonuses for people who like the characters that they are based off of. Whether they are useless or nothing special compared to the original is incidental and sometimes a charming novelty. That's the thing about clones. They're so harmless. They take next to no development time away from the game and they boost the options when it comes to characters. It's like "Oh, hey! You can play as DARK Pit and BABY Pikachu too!" If you like Mario, Pikachu, or Pit, then naturally you'd want to see their alter egos or whatever playable as well. That's why Pichu is my #1 when it comes to veterans I wanna see return from being cut.

They're not meant to be taken so seriously. Unless of course you like them and they get removed. But, there's literally no reason to complain about them and yet we find people constantly ******** and moaning about them. Not saying you are, but other people take it to the extreme and blacklist them. It's understandable that you want to see them updated, but I don't see it as a big priority.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Speaking for myself, I don't ever want Young Link to reappear as a fighter in Smash, because I like Toon Link much more than him and I don't want three Links on the roster, no matter whatever uniqueness they may have to offer.

Sometimes it just boils down to personal opinion without much else to it. You can't fault someone for that alone.

 

[SmashChu]

Totally agree, I used to have a thought that characters from RWBY can be guess characters as DLC Blades in XC2. With RWBY starting to appear crossover games like BlazBlue, why not give Xenoblade for a try?

I mean you have Yang which uses knuckles, that is one of a Blade weapon in the game.

I know nothing about RWBY, so I can't speak on it. What I thought would be cool would be if they did homage to Nintendo characters as Blades. Would love to them do something like Mr. EAD (a homage to Mario) as a Sheild Hammer. But I digress.

Unfortunately, I'll never realize my dream of an Alex Jones blades that just yells about interdimensional demons. The blade quest would be 11/10.

 

[Ghirahilda]

Speaking for myself, I don't ever want Young Link to reappear as a fighter in Smash, because I like Toon Link much more than him and I don't want three Links on the roster, no matter whatever uniqueness they may have to offer.

Sometimes it just boils down to personal opinion without much else to it. You can't fault someone for that alone.

Can the Third Link be Wolf Link + Midna?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I just want to play as Mario in the black coat without being stuck with a gimped moveset.

Is it really that bad to want Doc to be an alt instead of a clone?

Yes. It really is. You're asking that a character people love be downgraded and portrayed inaccurately for your own selfish cynicism.

 

[Deleted member]

Like half of these characters arent really worth adding buttttttttttt

- El Capitan Todd
- Midna
- Incineroar
Dixie Kong Funky Kong
Ridley
- Slippy
Banana Dee (intentional typo)
- Chrom (paired up with Lucina. IT COUNTS!)
Viridi Viridi Viridi Viridi Viridi Viridi Viridi
- Kumatora
- Bear Hugger
(retro) - Takamaru? I guess?
- that green lizard assasin guy
- Alph I guess?
- Isabelle
Jimmy T
- Nia & Dromarch
- the balance board cahracter
- Tails
- Spider
- Ms. Pac Man
:4Ryu: - Rashidoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo (dressed as Viewtiful Joe)
MOTHER ****ING SQUALL
- Jeanne?


Well this list is boring AF lol

I like list, looks identical to mine.
Glad someone's choice is Bear Hugger for the Punch Out! series as well.
That green lizard asasin guy from F-Zero is actually named Pico.
Also Banana Dee?

I love you Zeb, even with your typos.
( I do not want to date you, that love just means that we are good friends. )

I'm happy that Viridi is getting mentions in this lol.

Before Smash release, every single result would be Medusa or Hades (I would have agreed back then). Now Viridi is getting mentions, as minor as they are. Baby steps.

It would be really cool to see Viridi in Smash Bros. indeed. I would love to see her defeat Palutena for some reason. If they add her, I will actually be happy too. Was I the only one who found Viridi funny in Palutena's Guidance instead of annoying? Viridi made me smile in Palutena's Guidance. Great now I want Viridi in Smash Bros. even more.

Something I want to mention really briefly (or not).

First of all, why continue the cut conversation? Can we not find something more interesting to talk about? I mean, yeah the anxiety of characters getting cut is tiring. I feel like one of my mains, Greninja, is at risk of being cut out. I have way too much fun playing him, so I sincerely hope he isn't cut.
---
I want to talk about this trailer.

When I was a kid, a freshman in high school...I remember when I woke up that morning and was excited to see what new information Sakurai had for us. Sonic was my most wanted that time.

Opening up the web page for the Smash Bros. Dojo, and seeing Sonic staring at me with that smug look was one of the most amazing days I've ever had. I went to school that day and freaked out with a friend who hadn't looked that morning. I couldn't get it off my mind that day. I couldn't believe it. Finally, after all these years, I could have an epic battle between Mario and Sonic, two of the biggest rivals (at least to the fans) in gaming history!

That right there broke the internet and blew the minds of gaming fans everywhere.

Fast forward to November 2015. I'd completed my first student teaching placement and was in my second week at my high school student teaching placement. I got home that one night, knowing there would be a Nintendo Direct. I had a hunch there would be a new DLC character announced, and I figured it would be somebody everybody expected, like K.Rool.

This trailer starts.

Having never played Final Fantasy VII, I didn't recognize anything from it until the fated:

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS

X

Final Fantasy VII

Came across the screen.

Some friends from Smashboards were in a Skype chat, but I wanted to take it all in on my own. Seeing those words on the screen, even though I wasn't a Final Fantasy player...seeing those boots slowly walk across the Midgar stage, sent chills down my crooked spine. My hands went up to my head. My jaw dropped. I was completely blindsided.

After the trailer, I called a handful of friends as I practically gasped for air. Considering most of my gaming friends love Final Fantasy VII but didn't play or follow Smash like I did, I absolutely HAD to tell them. The reactions were some I still remember so clearly. The following day I asked my students if they saw it. They thought it was the coolest thing, not only that Cloud was in Smash, but that their teacher was freaking out about it.

This was another instance in which a childhood rivalry, the fated gaming showdown of Link and Cloud, something that was previously thought impossible, was somehow now real. A rivalry on par with Sonic and Mario was now in the same game in which you could, indeed, have Sonic and Mario fight.

That Cloud reveal trailer effectively broke the internet. Sonic was one thing. Sonic had big appearances on Nintendo consoles, and was considered the most wanted 3rd party once Snake opened the gates, and for good reason.

Nobody saw Cloud coming.

I am sure that many people reading this may have had similar reactions, and maybe some who didn't. Even now when I rewatch that trailer, I get chills. Shortly following that, during my winter break before I started my Master's degree I played through Final Fantasy VII. It's one of my favorite games of all time.

Now, I realize that Cloud is on the chopping block for a wide array of fans. Some have viable reasons, and others don't (in my opinion anyway).

I think it would be a very, very big mistake to do that. Something I would like you all to consider.

Think about the first time Sonic was revealed for Smash. Think about the realization of that legendary rivalry. Mario vs. Sonic. Consider it.

Now think about that feeling again, but in the form of Link vs. Cloud. Even if you don't care about that rivalry. Consider that.

Now, consider the backlash of cutting Sonic the Hedgehog. Think about that rivalry no longer being possible, even though it once was. What do we lose here?

Consider the same for Cloud.

Just going to say this, but really well-said. I loved reading this.
This is one of the reasons why I want no cuts from Smash 4 to Smash for Switch.
I do think that Smash for Switch is a new game too, so my hope for no cuts is strong.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Speaking for myself, I don't ever want Young Link to reappear as a fighter in Smash, because I like Toon Link much more than him and I don't want three Links on the roster, no matter whatever uniqueness they may have to offer.

Sometimes it just boils down to personal opinion without much else to it. You can't fault someone for that alone.

But if you say you don't like a character, an angry mob will come and lynch you.

I'm in a similar boat as you with Lucina, I don't think we should have three Marths on the roster, plus I think it's off that Awakening has two characters, but that's just my opinion. I also think Lucina is an absolutely terrible character and don't understand her popularity.

Yes. It really is. You're asking that a character people love be downgraded and portrayed inaccurately for your own selfish cynicism.

Um, no. I'd rather Doc be portrayed accurately, as an alt for Mario. Because that's literally what he is, Mario in another costume. Mario suddenly being slow because he put on a coat is whats inaccurate. Gee, how exactly was I being cynical?

And how is it a downgrade when Doc is worse than Mario? Making him play the same as Mario would be an upgrade. I don't want a character people love to be removed, he's still there. Mario is Mario, the doctor outfit would still be Dr. Mario.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I guess my problem is that, well, not everything in Smash has to be for everyone. Don't like a character? Don't play as them. Use them as a punching bag.

I happen to be very accepting to a lot of content that I originally wasn't when Wii U first came out. I've played the base series of every series with a playable character in Smash, and have grown to love each and every character for what they are in Smash Wii U/3DS. That may be a little weird/preachy, but that's mainly why I don't want to see somebody cut.

Now, while it may not rustle my jimmies all that bad if a character like, say, Lucas was cut there's somebody out there that loves to play as Lucas. A character like Lucas has a Smash following. For me to act like my wants are necessarily more important than others is kinda faulty.

If I advocate for getting rid of a character I don't like that would be, effectively, also advocating for taking something away from somebody else. It's especially silly if I advocate for taking out a character that I want to remove and making space for a character that, again, I may like but would be at the expense of something somebody has a special place in their heart for.

People wonder why cuts get people salty, that's why. It's not that they are thin skinned. Smash is a special game to a lot of different people.

It is different to advocate to retain veterans rather than advocate for removing another, simply because you don't think they belong or don't like them.

At the very least, that's my opinion of that. I don't let the whole idea that a series like Fire Emblem having 6 characters is inherently so bad and game breaking that a character absolutely must be removed.

If a character gets cut, they get cut. But let's not actively degrade one in order to get our own in our imaginations.

At least I find it much easier to enjoy talking about Smash that way.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Speaking for myself, I don't ever want Young Link to reappear as a fighter in Smash, because I like Toon Link much more than him and I don't want three Links on the roster, no matter whatever uniqueness they may have to offer.

Sometimes it just boils down to personal opinion without much else to it. You can't fault someone for that alone.

That's the one clone I don't wanna see return. That really would be excessive. It would be like having Dr. Mario & Dr. Luigi. I wouldn't cry about it if he returned. If the next Smash game brought back literally every veteran in the series, then I would be happy for the fans.

Young Link is also the one time I can see a clone being reduced to a costume. That's only because Young Link is the only character in the series to be replaced by another character and if I'm not mistaken, Toon Link retains all of Young Link's animations.

I'm pretty sure if we gave Toon Link the fire arrow and allowed costumes to have their own taunts, then Young Link could work as a costume of Toon Link and be no different than if he were a separate character. As long as it would please his fans, then I'm all for that. And like I said, this is a very rare exception that I would suggest a clone become a costume because they are both Young Link, just different aesthetic designs.

 

[SmashChu]

I think it would be a very, very big mistake to do that. Something I would like you all to consider.

Think about the first time Sonic was revealed for Smash. Think about the realization of that legendary rivalry. Mario vs. Sonic. Consider it.

Now think about that feeling again, but in the form of Link vs. Cloud. Even if you don't care about that rivalry. Consider that.

Now, consider the backlash of cutting Sonic the Hedgehog. Think about that rivalry no longer being possible, even though it once was. What do we lose here?

Consider the same for Cloud.

The problem is you aren't looking at the reality of the situation: Nintendo doesn't own those characters.

It's nice to say "Oh, people like them, so they shouldn't get cut." But when you talk about guest characters, you are talking about characters Nintendo has to license out which will include payment (these companies aren't going to let Nintendo use these properties for free). This may have been easier to do with the DLC as sales of said character were earmarked as opposed to the general game where Nintendo gets 15-30 percent of $60.

Cloud has a lot of issues. Nintendo didn't give him an English voice because of a union. The amiibo were likely delayed because of him. Music choices were severely limited. When people say "Cloud will be cut," it's because they recognize some of these issues. By the way, these aren't unique to Cloud either. Ever wonder why Sonic and Mega Man didn't have any music on the Club Nintendo CD? Why Sonic stages can't be streamed at tournaments. Why the color pallets for Sonic and Pac-Man are so odd. It's the same problem.

Lastly, for guest characters, newer is always better. Sure, you can share stories about how big Cloud being in Smash was, but when it comes to new characters, you always want to do something new. Cloud returning doesn't get headlines. It doesn't create new excitement. Been there. Done that. Now, adding Bubsy, that gets some headlines. Ever wonder why a lot of games wont do guest characters twice? Soul Caliber has never gone back to Link, or Yoda, or Assassin's Creed? There is no use doing it twice. I expect this is partly why Snake was cut (as the Konami fall out didn't happen till years later). While people will look at Sonic returning, remember that he was added during Nintendo and Sega's exclusivity deal where Nintendo got 3 exclusive Sonic games for the Wii U. This likely played a roll in that.

So while you may be upset about cut talk and want these characters to stay, remember that it's not the same as keeping Shulk, or Greninja or Lucina. There is an extra layer that those characters don't have.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Um, no. I'd rather Doc be portrayed accurately, as an alt for Mario.

You already said that. I obviously heard you the first time if I responded to your quote.

Because that's literally what he is, Mario in another costume.

No it's literally not. Dr. Mario using fireballs instead of pills is a problem. And if you don't think it's a problem then go write a letter to Sakurai.

Mario suddenly being slow because he put on a coat is whats inaccurate.

Nice try, but that's really a stretch. We're talking about Dr. Mario's portrayal in Super Smash Bros. If Dr. Mario used fireballs in Super Smash Bros it'd be inaccurate to his past appearances in that series. Not to mention it would just be awkward in the first place.

Dr. Mario is more to people than just a change of clothes. If you can't see that, then you really are cynical.

And how is it a downgrade when Doc is worse than Mario?

I feel like I've already explained that. And it pains me that it actually needed explaining. And isn't Dr. Mario BETTER than Mario if I recall correctly? I mean that's totally subjective. It depends who you're better with.

Making him play the same as Mario would be an upgrade.

That's some weird mental gymnastics right there.

I don't want a character people love to be removed, he's still there. Mario is Mario, the doctor outfit would still be Dr. Mario.

I've already made my case why this is wrong.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

My ideas for a Dark Pit revamp


I really like Pittoo. And he comes from a game with tons of things to add his moveset. Assuming Pit will stay largely the same as his Smash 4 incarnation, here's what I'd do to Dark Pit.

Spoiler

First and foremost, make his primary tool his SELF NAMED Dark Pit Staff.

Jab: Three hit part attack using the staff. He swings his staff twice, and then shoots the staff at the ground at a 45 degree angle in front of himself to launch opponents.

Forward Tilt: Dark Pit shoots a quick, short beam from the staff

Up Tilt: Same upward kicks from Smash 4

Down Tilt: Sweep feet just like Smash 4. However give the hit a chance to trip

Forward Smash: Dark Pit readies a jump, and on release, he jumps up and shoots a powerful beam at a downward angle towards the stage in front of him.

Up Smash: Dark Pit swings his Viridi Claws above his head, once with each hand. First swipe does damage, second swipe launches. He is helping Viridi now, after all.

Down Smash: Same idea as Smash 4, but swings the back strike faster. Lower damage, leads to follow ups.

Neutral Air: Same as Smash 4

Forward Air: Dark Pit shoots three quick beams in front from the staff

Back Air: Dark Pit swings a vicious kick backwards

Up Air: Same as Smash 4

Down Air: Dark Pit swings his staff above his head, then takes a heavy swing downward shooting out a powerful beam. Can spike.

Neutral Special: Chargable long-range shots from the Dark Pit Staff. Longer charge increases range, damage, speed, and knockback. Non-storable.

Side Special: Dark Pit keeps the Electroshock Arm, but he swings overhand on contact. On stage, the ability hits opponents sideways with little vertical trajectory. In the air, the ability gains a sweetspot that can spike.

Up Special: Power of Flight

Down Special: Dark Pit uses Violet Palm. He simultaneously shoots it forward and backward. Much like its KI:U counterpart, it has poor range. They cover tech chases and have decent damage/knockback, though.

Final Smash: Prolly stay the same, Idk about his Final Smash and I don't use them anyways. Let your imaginations run wild there.

And, there you go. Its not perfect, and I just whipped it up in about 20 minutes. Would love to hear some feedback from KI:U veterans, and I'd like to hear some other ideas that people have.

 

[Deleted member]

I just want to play as Mario in the black coat without being stuck with a gimped moveset.

And I want to play as Dr. Mario without having to deal with F.L.U.D.D. and having none of the attack properties that make him Dr. Mario.

What you fail to grasp is that no one except you wants to play as Dr. Mario just because he's "Mario in a lab coat" but rather because they prefer how he plays to regular Mario.
Making him just a costume with absolutely no differences from Mario whatsoever takes away from that.

But it's not like we haven't had this stupid conversation before.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The problem is you aren't looking at the reality of the situation: Nintendo doesn't own those characters.

It's nice to say "Oh, people like them, so they shouldn't get cut." But when you talk about guest characters, you are talking about characters Nintendo has to license out which will include payment (these companies aren't going to let Nintendo use these properties for free). This may have been easier to do with the DLC as sales of said character were earmarked as opposed to the general game where Nintendo gets 15-30 percent of $60.

Cloud has a lot of issues. Nintendo didn't give him an English voice because of a union. The amiibo were likely delayed because of him. Music choices were severely limited. When people say "Cloud will be cut," it's because they recognize some of these issues. By the way, these aren't unique to Cloud either. Ever wonder why Sonic and Mega Man didn't have any music on the Club Nintendo CD? Why Sonic stages can't be streamed at tournaments. Why the color pallets for Sonic and Pac-Man are so odd. It's the same problem.

Lastly, for guest characters, newer is always better. Sure, you can share stories about how big Cloud being in Smash was, but when it comes to new characters, you always want to do something new. Cloud returning doesn't get headlines. It doesn't create new excitement. Been there. Done that. Now, adding Bubsy, that gets some headlines. Ever wonder why a lot of games wont do guest characters twice? Soul Caliber has never gone back to Link, or Yoda, or Assassin's Creed? There is no use doing it twice. I expect this is partly why Snake was cut (as the Konami fall out didn't happen till years later). While people will look at Sonic returning, remember that he was added during Nintendo and Sega's exclusivity deal where Nintendo got 3 exclusive Sonic games for the Wii U. This likely played a roll in that.

So while you may be upset about cut talk and want these characters to stay, remember that it's not the same as keeping Shulk, or Greninja or Lucina. There is an extra layer that those characters don't have.

You make some good points, but there are others that I don't agree with.

Smash Bros. isn't really the same thing as Soul Calibur. Soul Caliber is a fighting game franchise with its own cast. Smash Bros. is an all-star game that thrives on mixing and matching characters. To me, that's not the same thing. I also doubt that Sonic wouldn't return again if 3rd parties are coming back. That in itself would leave an enormous hole in the roster.

While Cloud certainly had his issues, removing him will simply result in a massive desire to have him return. If you seriously believe that characters are added to make headlines, then that point may hold up. But consider the fact of the matter, which is that these characters do matter to people.

At this point, no 3rd party will outdo the internet-breaking that Sonic or Cloud created. I firmly believe that, in my heart of hearts. Bubsy, while unexpected, does not have the same social/cultural history among video game fans as Sonic or Cloud. If anything Bubsy is notorious/infamous and memetic.

I understand that there are extra hoops to jump through for these characters, I never had delusions about that. I simply believe it's in the best interest for the series and the fans to keep Cloud around.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I guess my problem is that, well, not everything in Smash has to be for everyone. Don't like a character? Don't play as them. Use them as a punching bag.

I happen to be very accepting to a lot of content that I originally wasn't when Wii U first came out. I've played the base series of every series with a playable character in Smash, and have grown to love each and every character for what they are in Smash Wii U/3DS. That may be a little weird/preachy, but that's mainly why I don't want to see somebody cut.

Now, while it may not rustle my jimmies all that bad if a character like, say, Lucas was cut there's somebody out there that loves to play as Lucas. A character like Lucas has a Smash following. For me to act like my wants are necessarily more important than others is kinda faulty.

If I advocate for getting rid of a character I don't like that would be, effectively, also advocating for taking something away from somebody else. It's especially silly if I advocate for taking out a character that I want and making space for a character that, again, I may not like but somebody has a special place in their heart for.

People wonder why cuts get people salty, that's why. It's not that they are thin skinned. Smash is a special game to a lot of different people.

It is different to advocate to retain veterans rather than advocate for removing another, simply because you don't think they belong or don't like them.

At the very least, that's my opinion of that. I don't let the whole idea that a series like Fire Emblem having 6 characters is inherently so bad and game breaking that a character absolutely must be removed.

If a character gets cut, they get cut. But let's not actively degrade one in order to get our own in our imaginations.

At least I find it much easier to enjoy talking about Smash that way.

Oh, cool. A positive and reasonable post...

...Alright, that was nice. Now let's go back to arguing about cuts and complaining about clones for the next two months.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Oh, cool. A positive and reasonable post...

...Alright, that was nice. Now let's go back to arguing about cuts and complaining about clones for the next two months.

Would it be a Smash speculation thread if we didn't do that?

I really wish people would post/discuss potential concepts for the game, whether they be movesets, stages, game modes, etc. and actually put some thought into stuff instead of always defaulting to "muh cuts" or "clones suk git rid of em". I've tried to not be a culprit of cut discussion, though I have definitely stated my opinions on what I think about who in Smash 4. I remember those being such toxic topics for Smash 4, and they're just as bad now. I wish the thread was named "Super Smash Bros for Switch Constructive Discussion Thread"

 

[SmashChu]

You make some good points, but there are others that I don't agree with.

Smash Bros. isn't really the same thing as Soul Calibur. Soul Caliber is a fighting game franchise with its own cast. Smash Bros. is an all-star game that thrives on mixing and matching characters. To me, that's not the same thing. I also doubt that Sonic wouldn't return again if 3rd parties are coming back. That in itself would leave an enormous hole in the roster.

While Cloud certainly had his issues, removing him will simply result in a massive desire to have him return. If you seriously believe that characters are added to make headlines, then that point may hold up. But consider the fact of the matter, which is that these characters do matter to people.

At this point, no 3rd party will outdo the internet-breaking that Sonic or Cloud created. I firmly believe that, in my heart of hearts. Bubsy, while unexpected, does not have the same social/cultural history among video game fans as Sonic or Cloud. If anything Bubsy is notorious/infamous and memetic.

I understand that there are extra hoops to jump through for these characters, I never had delusions about that. I simply believe it's in the best interest for the series and the fans to keep Cloud around.

First, I think you missed the irony in my Bubsy statement. I could have added Alex Kidd or Battletoads. It didn't matter. The point I'm trying to convey is that if you are going to go license out another character, you'd want a new one.

Second, Smash Bros is a Nintendo cross-over specifically. If you don't believe me, go look at the back of the Smash for Wii U box. The guest characters are ancillary. They exist for the same reason as Yoda does in SC4. It's cool to have Yoda in SC because he's not normally in there.

Overall, I think you're taking a rose-colored glasses approach. It's nice to say that X should stay, but it gets tricky when you are dealing with another company. It's more than just being difficult. It's likely a costly endevor. Adding Sonic back in isn't the same as adding Marth. Nintendo owns Marth, so the only commitment is the time to make him. Sonic is owned by Sega so you have to negotiate with them and they are probably going to want a payment. Again, should Sonic return if it means a new third party character doesn't get in. Remember, Nintendo makes only a certain amount on each copy sold. Its about 9-18 bucks. Smash does sell a lot, but how much of that profit is Nintendo willing to be eaten up to make a few fans happy and bring Sonic back.

Moreover, should Nintendo even pay for those characters when people want to see Inklings and K Rool? It's a bit outside the scope of these conversations, but if there won't be anything that outdoes Sonic and Cloud, is it worth it to go and get these characters?

It's nice to say they should be back. It's different when there is a check involved.

 

[Ghirahilda]

Do you guys think that the mobile games could get some kind of representation in Smash? A trophy? A playable character from FE Heroes? Some Villager alt costume based on his/her appearance in Animal Crossing Pocket Camp? I would love to read your constructive opinions

 

[JamesDNaux]

Snip.

So you make this big a deal about Dr. Mario being a clone and that it's a disservice to his fans to make him an alt, but...

That's the one clone I don't wanna see return. That really would be excessive. It would be like having Dr. Mario & Dr. Luigi. I wouldn't cry about it if he returned. If the next Smash game brought back literally every veteran in the series, then I would be happy for the fans.

Young Link is also the one time I can see a clone being reduced to a costume. That's only because Young Link is the only character in the series to be replaced by another character and if I'm not mistaken, Toon Link retains all of Young Link's animations.

I'm pretty sure if we gave Toon Link the fire arrow and allowed costumes to have their own taunts, then Young Link could work as a costume of Toon Link and be no different than if he were a separate character. As long as it would please his fans, then I'm all for that. And like I said, this is a very rare exception that I would suggest a clone become a costume because they are both Young Link, just different aesthetic designs.

Young Link being a costume would not be a disservice to his fans? Hypocritical much?

And Project M already proved that it's entirely possible to swap fireballs for pills, so Dr. Mario being an alt wouldn't suddenly make him throw fireballs. As for FLUDD? Yeah, I'll give you that. But that's no more of a stretch than Dr. Mario throwing his "hat" in Odyssey.

And I want to play as Dr. Mario without having to deal with F.L.U.D.D. and having none of the attack properties that make him Dr. Mario.

What you fail to grasp is that no one except you wants to play as Dr. Mario just because he's "Mario in a lab coat" but rather because they prefer how he plays to regular Mario.
Making him just a costume with absolutely no differences from Mario whatsoever takes away from that.

But it's not like we haven't had this stupid conversation before.

And it's a perfectly valid opinion for you to prefer Dr. Mario over Mario, just like it's perfectly valid for me to want Mario to be Mario.

And just like it's perfectly valid for someone else to want "Football Mario."