Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Staarih]

Yeah, I can't see Shulk being cut, I rather see him becoming the face of Xenoblade in years to come, much like Marth became one for Fire Emblem - Smash-wise at least.

Wii Fit Trainer I don't see leaving either, at least not for now. The Wii U did get an entry in the series so it's still semi-relevant even if it didn't do as well as the original Wii Fit. In the future (s)he may be cut, but even then what could remain is a representative of the Wii (U)-set of games even if Switch won't continue on with it.

I hate thinking about cuts. I glanced at the overall set of characters Smash 4 has right now and I'd hate if any of them were cut. Yeah, even Lucina/Dark Pit, in their case it's a matter of them becoming their own characters in the first place and not necessarily being a fan of them themselves - if they had remained as costumes, they wouldn't leave a void behind like they would now should they be cut. The roster is becoming huge so I guess cuts are inevitable, but we shall see what happens.

 

[Zerp]

If the Wario series got items I'd want it to be the donuts/apples that make Wario fat. Mainly because it'd be amusing to see fat versions of all the characters.

...I think I speak for all of us when I say that I really don't want to see what kinds of horrors the artsy side of the fanbase would unleash upon our eyes with that new item.


Also, about cuts, I'm completely clueless on who'd be cut and who'd stay, 's cut in Brawl makes me feel like it's nearly impossible to accurately predict who's safe and who's not safe other than characters that have been here multiple times.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think any cuts in the initial roster will be available as DLC.

Now that Sakurai has a fairly good idea of how to make DLC characters and stuff, I think the development cycle of the game will have arrangements for DLC characters right from the beginning. The only undecided part being which characters end up being DLC, which depends on how the development of the game goes.

 

[Deleted member]

Now that we're speaking of DLCs, what are your ideas for handling them better?

I don't know about American players, or even foreign players by extent, but I can affirm DLC's pricing have not been well received in France.

I had the idea that Nintendo should have offered permanent price drops for some games related to the DLC characters on the eShop, like:

: -50% on Pokémon X & Y
: -50% on EarthBound and EarthBound Beginnings
: -50% on Fire Emblem: Blazing Sword
: -50% on Super Street Fighter IV 3D
: -50% on Final Fantasy Tactic Advance
: -50% on Fire Emblem Awakening
: -50% on Bayonetta 2

Then there's the idea of Season Pass, but as I have no idea on how that work...

 

[Wolfie557]

Today I realised Smash speculation is just like some Game of Thrones and Hunger Games crossover. This ones on top then that ones on top and on and on it spins, while the "rules" and circumstances of the game change with each new Smash game / port / DLC.

What are some unrequested characters that would be amazing to have in Smash 5? I vouch for King Boo as part of the Luigi franchise.

Lara Croft. One would think after Cloud people would be far more supportive of many different 3rd party icons than just the usual batch e.g Rayman.

The more I think about it...

...The more I like the idea of this AT to become the new and being added as a surprise semi-clone of .


The only thing that might prevent it is the fact it would be the third character having Samus in its name, but after all, Smash 4's roster has 2 characters sharing the exact same name too.

I don't think the names will affect anything.
Dark Samus could be its own unique character but a Semi-clone isn't a stretch either. Would depend on how much time and priority given to DS imo.

If you could get one more clone character in the same vein as Lucina and Dark Pit who would you want?

I would really want for it to be Galacta Knight as a Meta Knight clone.

Just Alph tbh, with Rock Pikmin being used. Maybe have other captains as alts. Except Louie. I don't like him

If you guys were to pick an assist trophy to become a playable character, which one(s) would you choose for the Switch version?

An? I can't pick one... so these in order of most wanted to least:
Midna, Dark Samus, Ghirahim, Takamaru, Ashley, Phosphora.

I seriously doubt Sakurai would ever demote Lucina or Pittoo back to alts.

Same here. Hopefully they become semicloned or even "luigified".

Counters have design space, but they are not fully taken advantage in Smash despite there being so many.

Counters can potentially do many things. Build up meters, change conditions, deal out damage, deal out attack, stun, ect. But counters are not designed equally in the game.

Corrin's counter is simply better than other knock-back counters and the witch's counter has a powerful ability and even an extra feature so her whiffed counter is harder to punish. These have to go.

An example of a novel counter is one I made for a Decidueye moveset. The counter places a bulls-eye on the opponent. Projectiles do more damage and have a homing property toward the marked individual. The duration of the target depends on the strength of the attack.

Simple counters can deal hefty damage or knock-back, but not both. Peach's counter should tack on damage while Marth can be more even-handed and Ike's packing knock-back.

I do like the idea of counters doing more things.

But Witch Time ain't going nowhere. Bayo has many unique things about her but Witch Time comes on top in her games and the entire Action genre.

I think a good way to balance out how good Bayo's counter is would be to give her a Magic Meter like in the games, and make her have to fill up each orb for every counter she wants to use. She'd fill it up by dishing out damage and could still stack a few, she just wouldn't be able to use it as often.

Ummm no. She doesn't use the magic meter for witch time. No reason why it should be changed further in Smash. It works well as is.

 

[Luminario]

I think any cuts in the initial roster will be available as DLC.

Now that Sakurai has a fairly good idea of how to make DLC characters and stuff, I think the development cycle of the game will have arrangements for DLC characters right from the beginning. The only undecided part being which characters end up being DLC, which depends on how the development of the game goes.

DLC characters would likely need to be super popular too, so it's doubtful any of them would be obscure retro reps. The 3rd Party reps already in the game would likely still work as being added on as DLC for the next game too.
I'd say a good idea is to make the base roster pretty much all Nintendo characters, filled with retro reps and left field picks (exceptions to Sonic, Megaman and Pac-man so they're still in no matter what) then start adding popular 3rd part requests as DLC. Pretty much exactly what they did during Smash 4 only on a bigger scale. That way the base game is still a Nintendo crossover legacy game, and the DLC is lucrative and rakes in heavy profit.

 

[FalKoopa]

DLC characters would likely need to be super popular too, so it's doubtful any of them would be obscure retro reps. The 3rd Party reps already in the game would likely still work as being added on as DLC for the next game too.
I'd say a good idea is to make the base roster pretty much all Nintendo characters, filled with retro reps and left field picks (exceptions to Sonic, Megaman and Pac-man so they're still in no matter what) then start adding popular 3rd part requests as DLC. Pretty much exactly what they did during Smash 4 only on a bigger scale. That way the base game is still a Nintendo crossover legacy game, and the DLC is lucrative and rakes in heavy profit.

Of course. DLC requires people to voluntarily want to get those characters, so obscure ones can't work as DLC.

Also they could reduce a lot of "outrage" if the announce from the beginning that DLC will be a thing. I don't want to see anything like the reaction to Smash 4's roster leak.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Think it's best if they gonna keep a good balance between the 3rd party and newcomer DLC characters and regular newcomers.

To be honest, due to our massive character demand, this is easy cash for Nintendo... Cut a few popular veterans, add in just a few reasonable popular characters, then throw in amazing DLC, easy money.

Like intentionally don't add Wolf, add newcomers as Inkling, Bandana Dee and Takamaru. Now third party characters; Bayonetta and Cloud are on the base roster, Yooka-Laylee or Rayman is a newcomer... now suddenly, Mega Man and Ryu are cut, but DLC. Roy, Lucas and Mewtwo on the base roster, but oh no! Corrin and Robin are now DLC, and so is Jigglypuff.

The potential to rip us off majorly must be extremely tempting to them.

See this is why I never bought a Wii U. #StayWoke

 

[Curious Villager]

Of course. DLC requires people to voluntarily want to get those characters, so obscure ones can't work as DLC.

Also they could reduce a lot of "outrage" if the announce from the beginning that DLC will be a thing. I don't want to see anything like the reaction to Smash 4's roster leak.

Wasn't there a lot of outrage when they announced DLC for Breath of the Wild before the game came out?

DLC is a pretty touchy subject with gamers in general due to certain questionable practices...

I think Smash did it fairly well for the most part. I think the sole thing most people where angry about (from what I've seen) where the pricing itself for the DLC content and how bundles where handled.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Okay just for reference, how much does a copy of Smash 4 Wii U cost you? And how much is all the DLC? All the characters, all the stages? Leave the Mii costumes out...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know I've brought it up before, but I think we need to get rid of a ton of counters across the board. 12 characters have counters. Twelve.

I'm fine will all the characters staying if development time allows it, but I only want 1/3 of them to keep counters. and the fourth can be any of these

I may be way late in regards to this topic, but last I've checked, Greninja and Palutena are on the underwhelming side with their counterattacks. Greninja's counterattack can be interrupted, while Palutena's Counter lacks the knockback that can take out fighters quickly, even after blocking a strong attack.

 

[Arcadenik]

Peach's counter is the only counter that's not Down+B.

Maybe we need more Neutral Special counters.

 

[Zerp]

Okay just for reference, how much does a copy of Smash 4 Wii U cost you? And how much is all the DLC? All the characters, all the stages? Leave the Mii costumes out...

A copy of Smash U with all DLC characters and stages should cost around $102.88 (the cost of the actual copy depends on retailer, so give or take 10 dollars) without the adapter and around $142.87 with it. So, basically, a lot of money.

 

[Curious Villager]

That's not even counting those who own both the Wii U and 3DS versions and bought the DLC content for both versions?

 

[Zerp]

That's not even counting those who own both the Wii U and 3DS versions and bought the DLC content for both versions?

Yeah it's not counting those, this is just for Wii U. Although to be fair, the 3DS DLC won't cost much more than just the Wii U DLC because you can buy the DLC for stages and characters in both versions bundled together.

 

[Wolfie557]

DLC characters would likely need to be super popular too, so it's doubtful any of them would be obscure retro reps. The 3rd Party reps already in the game would likely still work as being added on as DLC for the next game too.
I'd say a good idea is to make the base roster pretty much all Nintendo characters, filled with retro reps and left field picks (exceptions to Sonic, Megaman and Pac-man so they're still in no matter what) then start adding popular 3rd part requests as DLC. Pretty much exactly what they did during Smash 4 only on a bigger scale. That way the base game is still a Nintendo crossover legacy game, and the DLC is lucrative and rakes in heavy profit.

Even if 3rd parties ever go into the 15+ characters range, it would still be a Nintendo legacy game...

 

[FalKoopa]

Wasn't there a lot of outrage when they announced DLC for Breath of the Wild before the game came out?

DLC is a pretty touchy subject with gamers in general due to certain questionable practices...

I think Smash did it fairly well for the most part. I think the sole thing most people where angry about (from what I've seen) where the pricing itself for the DLC content and how bundles where handled.

Oh, I was specifically referring to the outrage over cut characters.

I don't think Smash DLC will have BoTW-like outrage. People rejoiced when Smash 4 DLC was announced, after all.

 

[Wolfie557]

I may be way late in regards to this topic, but last I've checked, Greninja and Palutena are on the underwhelming side with their counterattacks. Greninja's counterattack can be interrupted, while Palutena's Counter lacks the knockback that can take out fighters quickly, even after blocking a strong attack.

I don't think Palutena should have a counter imo. They really need to change her specials but especially if a port, I don't see it happening.

They are barely changing up Ganondorf either. And he only needs to have be like 1/3 magic 1/3 weapon 1/3 as he is rn.

 

[Curious Villager]

Oh, I was specifically referring to the outrage over cut characters.

I don't think Smash DLC will have BoTW-like outrage. People rejoiced when Smash 4 DLC was announced, after all.

Well it's mainly the whole "witheld content" type stigma that seems to linger around whenever DLC seems to be announced before a given game is released, even if there is no evidence of such through datamining and all.

I do agree that with a series like Smash, most fans would probably be overjoyed with more DLC content (especially DLC characters) coming along with the game. So long as it's done right, which they did for the most part for Smash 4.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Does Ganondorf even warrant a new move set? He's appearing more in Smash than in Zelda. Meaning the move set he's having now is actually the most fitting, as he makes the most appearances with it. *sigh*

 

[Deleted member]

Does Ganondorf even warrant a new move set? He's appearing more in Smash than in Zelda. Meaning the move set he's having now is actually the most fitting, as he makes the most appearances with it. *sigh*

Let's see...

Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker
Twilight Princess
Hyrule Warriors (and Legends)

Super Smash Bros. Melee
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U

Close, but not quite. If anything, Sheik is more of a Smash character than a Zelda one (despite being Zelda's alter ego, ironically), since she's the one that's made more Smash appearances and is only seen in OoT and HW as far as the Zelda series is concerned.

 

[Deleted member]

...I think I speak for all of us when I say that I really don't want to see what kinds of horrors the artsy side of the fanbase would unleash upon our eyes with that new item.

Yeah, that's fetish fuel waiting to happen. :V

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, that's fetish fuel waiting to happen. :V

Plus, we already got a balloon. Jigglypuff.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Yeah, that's fetish fuel waiting to happen. :V

Then there's the Super Mushroom and what interesting art it spawned.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Let's see...

Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker
Twilight Princess
Hyrule Warriors (and Legends)

Super Smash Bros. Melee
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U

Close, but not quite. If anything, Sheik is more of a Smash character than a Zelda one (despite being Zelda's alter ego, ironically), since she's the one that's made more Smash appearances and is only seen in OoT and HW as far as the Zelda series is concerned.

Well, you are right. I even forgot about Hyrule Warriors for a second even though I bring it up all the time when discussing Impa! Yay for me being a hypocrite! But yeah, his Smash roles are catching up to him. Maybe you could sort of count the remakes of the 3D Zelda games to- but nobody does.

Agree with you on Sheik fully. She's only there because she always was, and I think that's both good and bad. Good? Veteran status is respected, but we're stuck with a character we'll never see again in a mainstream Zelda game (her being in Hyrule Warriors is her saving grace however) and she never had any of her abilities in Ocarina of Time except for her Up B. She's gotten a whole lot of love which could and in my opinion, should've gone to other Nintendo characters. However, with so many 3rd party characters running around, I respect Sheik's presence more cause at least she's from Nintendo.

I was a strong advocate of Sheik's replacement in trade for Impa during the Smash 4 speculation era. You could even say I leaded / started the whole fiasco. Ask anyone here, they'll remember the days of what is often called "Impa propaganda". And just looking at what exactly happened in Smash 4, I actually think it would've been the better sollution.

First of all, Zelda and Sheik split up even though their main mechanic was 'Down B Transform'. They are current day still """"""""BALANCED"""""""" in this same regard: Zelda ; slow and """powerful""" (as in, has a F Air and B Air which have a sweet spot thing going on that takes 20 years to completely master, with frustration of course cause Zelda is terrible) and then there's Sheik; faster than lighting and thunder combined, designed to "rack up damage quickly" in order for Zelda to finish (you got that right, you should be playing Sheik over Zelda in all cases). Oh, did I mentoin best projectile in the game? She has that too!

Now they are split up, and the balance between the two was even WORSE! Now with Melee, Sheik was a Top Tier, and Zelda a Low Tier, pretty big difference but hey, it was their first go at it. Next, Brawl. The Sheik transformation was forced upon us yet again and Sakurai even felt the need of adding ANOTHER Down B Character Change Gimmick Character - terrible choice in the end, cause the development time which it took could easily give us about 5 newcomer instead. Also, Squirtle and Ivysaur got axed the next game, despite being a 10.000 times more recognisable than Sheik.

So I guess because of that TP Sheik design, we are now stuck with the character cause I'm pretty damn sure Sheik would;ve been on the chopping block if they didn't. Maybe that would've mean Mewtwo could've been in Brawl, or Roy, or another Zelda character like Midna (I wanted Midna instead of Sheik during the Brawl days too!).

We should've just had Impa instead, and Zelda should've gotten a major overhaul in Brawl already with Sheik gone. Look at how many move set changes Sheik even got in Smash 4, is that really justified for a character that's forced upon us? She got about as much changed in her move set as the likes of Pit and Bowser! And Pit had a whole new game going for him, and Bowser is the most popular and well-known video game villain ever, plus had a disfunctional move set for two games. Sheik? Not so much, a inbetween power level of Melee and Brawl would've been just fine, meaning, buff Brawl Sheik with her new Down B and we already had a good High Tier character.

If it was up to me, I'd axe Sheik in an instant. But I've already stated, if she made it back for Smash 4 I would accept her being there, and so I guess I do. BotW's Impa also doesn't make for a good replacement, even though Skyward Sword Impa was just fine, PERFECT even. Now it's just the long wait for a HD remake of one of the least popular 3D Zelda games ever... I just hope Nintendo does it, and according to this infortmation; http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/14/zelda-producer-on-skyward-sword-hd-its-definitely-possible & http://www.zeldainformer.com/skyward-sword-officially-listed-for-wii-u/ , we just might (take note, Skyward Sword will likely not be ported to Wii U but the Switch instead).

It's funny though, I had my hopes up on Breath of the Wild for so long. Since the announcement of that game, Sheikah symbols where everywhere. Yet, what role do the most famous Sheikahs (actually the only onces since BotW) get for roles? An old lady with ugly teeth and a funny hat, and the other one a costume. Way to go Nintendo!

Okay, this turned out to be quite a long rant. Yes I'm mad, I don't even hide it.

About Ganondorf though? And the rest of the Zelda cast? I just wish we could have Hyrule Warriors move sets and designs for them all. It's better than forcing a 3rd time of Twilight Princess characters. Yet I think that's the most likely scenario if we get a direct port.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Let's see...

Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker
Twilight Princess
Hyrule Warriors (and Legends)

Super Smash Bros. Melee
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U

Close, but not quite. If anything, Sheik is more of a Smash character than a Zelda one (despite being Zelda's alter ego, ironically), since she's the one that's made more Smash appearances and is only seen in OoT and HW as far as the Zelda series is concerned.

I wouldn't count spin-off titles like Hyrule Warriors though. After all, spin-off titles don't exactly help a character get the playable treatment, as Waluigi has shown us.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wouldn't count spin-off titles like Hyrule Warriors though. After all, spin-off titles don't exactly help a character get the playable treatment, as Waluigi has shown us.

Well in the defense of Hyrule Warriors, that game at least provides a LOT for move set inspiration for Smash. Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Mario Kart..? Not so much. It also doesn't help that characters as Waluigi and Daisy will never be included in mainstream Mario games.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I wouldn't count spin-off titles like Hyrule Warriors though. After all, spin-off titles don't exactly help a character get the playable treatment, as Waluigi has shown us.

That's such a weird mentality to have.
Game appearances are game appearancea and Waluigi not being in this game (even though Rosalina and Bowser Jr. just had priority over him) means jack squat and certainly doesn't constitute a "spin-offs are forbidden"-rule.

Just because Waluigi had not appeared as a playable character yet has more to do with characters that took priority than Waluigi himself.

After all, main titles don't exactly help a character get the playable treatment, as Toad, King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Ridley, Impa, Tingle, Bandana Dee and Krystal have shown us

 

[Deleted member]

I'd also like to remind everyone that is in Smash (albeit as a last-minute clone of a main series character) and Sakurai wanted to add Geno at some point. So no, spin-off characters aren't forbidden, but it does seem like they're rarely ever considered.

 

[Diddy Kong]

After all, main titles don't exactly help a character get the playable treatment, as Toad, King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Ridley, Impa, Tingle, Bandana Dee have shown us

The feels... I feel every name on this one, except for Tingle.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The feels... I feel every name on this one, except for Tingle.

I know, because you have good taste.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

After all, main titles don't exactly help a character get the playable treatment, as Toad, King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Ridley, Impa, Tingle, Bandana Dee and Krystal have shown us

Or pretty much any one-shot character for that matter.

Sadly Midna and most Zelda characters fall under that category.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Or pretty much any one-shot character for that matter.

Sadly Midna and most Zelda characters fall under that category.

My point was that just because you're not in the fourth game, it doesn't mean you're never getting it.
It just means you might get your chance, another day

 

[Opossum]

My point was that just because you're not in the fourth game, it doesn't mean you're never getting it.
It just means you might get your chance, another day

Obligatory "Chrom for Smash 5" comment.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Obligatory "Chrom for Smash 5" comment.

I still say it's far more likely than people would think.

 

[PsychoJosh]

So one thing I thought they could add in the next Smash is underwater fighting.

It would replace the swimming mechanic, because swimming is mostly useless. Rather, characters who jump into water would slowly sink to the bottom, but still operate as if they were in the air. While underwater, you have an air meter, and you have infinite jumps. Movement is considerably slower because you're underwater but if you land on the ground at the bottom of a body of water, you can operate just like you were on land.

However, your air meter is limited. Once you run out of air you start taking damage in 5% increments per second that you're underwater. If you are over 100% underwater and your air meter depletes, your character drowns and falls off the bottom of the screen, KOing them instantly.

In cases where the water is over a bottomless pit, you can still spike opponents into the water with a meteor smash and they will still travel a certain distance before being able to do anything. So it is still possible to meteor someone all the way into the blast zone at the bottom even with a body of water over it.

 

[Kirbeh]

So one thing I thought they could add in the next Smash is underwater fighting.

It would replace the swimming mechanic, because swimming is mostly useless. Rather, characters who jump into water would slowly sink to the bottom, but still operate as if they were in the air. While underwater, you have an air meter, and you have infinite jumps. Movement is considerably slower because you're underwater but if you land on the ground at the bottom of a body of water, you can operate just like you were on land.

However, your air meter is limited. Once you run out of air you start taking damage in 5% increments per second that you're underwater. If you are over 100% underwater and your air meter depletes, your character drowns and falls off the bottom of the screen, KOing them instantly.

In cases where the water is over a bottomless pit, you can still spike opponents into the water with a meteor smash and they will still travel a certain distance before being able to do anything. So it is still possible to meteor someone all the way into the blast zone at the bottom even with a body of water over it.

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. It's about time we got a stage that gets flooded or have a stage that's just perpetually underwater like something from Starfy.

We'd definitely need another Sonic stage though, just to have the running out of air countdown music.

 

[Deleted member]

Then there's the Super Mushroom and what interesting art it spawned.

Eh, giant/giantess art isn't as bad as the inflation art, IMO. :V

 

[Megadoomer]

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. It's about time we got a stage that gets flooded or have a stage that's just perpetually underwater like something from Starfy.

We'd definitely need another Sonic stage though, just to have the running out of air countdown music.

I'd love to see Chemical Plant Zone from Sonic 2 - before Sonic was revealed for Smash 4, I was hoping that would be his stage.

 

[Chandeelure]

I still say it's far more likely than people would think.

Oh God, if they are going to include another FE character, at least choose someone unique.

Like an axe user, or pegasus rider or whatever... except spear user because that's Bandana Dee's job