Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Why do people believe that Lucina is the most likely FE character to be cut for Smash 5 when she is one of the most popular, iconic and heavily promoted Fire Emblem to this day?

Because, as it seems to be a general assumption we'll get a FE newcomer and that nearly everyone agrees 6 FE characters is the maximum the series must have, Lucina is seen as the most likely to be cut.

 

[Bowserlick]

Wario's moveset represents his personality even if it doesn't take moves from Warioland games. I sympathize with people who did not get the Wario they envisioned, but I love the fighter in Smash.

I hope if Waluigi is added, the developers try to make a creepy, self-loathing fighter rather than just pulling from Mario Sports.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Because, as it seems to be a general assumption we'll get a FE newcomer and that nearly everyone agrees 6 FE characters is the maximum the series must have, Lucina is seen as the most likely to be cut.

I mean she is still a big, major, popular FE character regardless of whether or not she is a clone (heck, her being really easy to implement is a plus for her) If anything. Roy and even Corrin are more likely to be cut.

 

[PsychoJosh]

This Source Gaming article may clear things up. In short, Japanese Wario is quite a bit different from the localized/NoA Wario.

Still doesn't provide a satisfactory explanation for why he doesn't have any combat moves from his platforming games. All such references were completely removed in SSB4.

 

[Kirbeh]

FE again? Can we please not have several pages of arguing that went nowhere like the last couple of times?

As for Lucina, it can go either way, as is the case with most FE characters. She's very popular and still relevant, but she was also a last minute clone promoted from an alt. She may or may not be a priority depending on that, but she still just as easily be squeezed in assuming they don't try and Luigify her. I'm just gonna repeat what I said last time.

- Guaranteed to stay.
- Provide unique movesets. Higher priority than the two below.
- Clone/semi-clone. Likely hold the lowest priority, but due to ease of development, may still make it in over the above three.

All current FE characters are otherwise extremely popular so who ends up being cut is difficult to determine.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

FE again? Can we please not have several pages of arguing that went nowhere like the last couple of times?

Fire Emblem is just that interesting to talk about.

 

[Kirbeh]

Fire Emblem is just that interesting to talk about.

Don't get me wrong, I love FE myself and wouldn't at all be bothered if all six reps stayed AND we got a newcomer or two, but most Smash fans would livid if that were the case. And I don't really blame them either as FE did jump up in representation quite a bit this time round while other franchises fans have been pushing for ages remained ignored.

Speculating is fun overall, but with FE being a touchy subject, I just don't want to see more arguments that just go in circles as has happened a few times.

 

[Curious Villager]

FE again? Can we please not have several pages of arguing that went nowhere like the last couple of times?

Fire Emblem is just that interesting to talk about.

Brings back memories from the pre-Smash 4 days where we also talked more about Fire Emblem than most other things. I guess we've come full circle...

 

[Bowserlick]

Marth, Ike and Robin can stay.

Roy is lower priority, Lucina can be a costume and Corrin is banned from coming back until his/her down B is different.

 

[Deleted member]

I seriously doubt Sakurai would ever demote Lucina or Pittoo back to alts.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Marth, Ike and Robin can stay.

Roy is lower priority, Lucina can be a costume and Corrin is banned from coming back until his/her down B is Dragon's Vein Terraforming.

Ftfy.

Why they haven't used Fates' biggest mechanic for Corn's moveset and instead were too lazy to think of a full-on dragon attack that's not a counter is beyond me

 

[Kirbeh]

Marth, Ike and Robin can stay.

Roy is lower priority, Lucina can be a costume and Corrin is banned from coming back until his/her down B is different.

I know I've brought it up before, but I think we need to get rid of a ton of counters across the board. 12 characters have counters. Twelve.

I'm fine will all the characters staying if development time allows it, but I only want 1/3 of them to keep counters. and the fourth can be any of these

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like his bike is just as iconic for Wario as his shoulder bash at this point. If he needs his shoulder bash, they should do like what they did for DK and his iconic roll and make it his new dash attack. It feels like it should be there more imo.

This.

It's literally called the "Dash Attack".
Why it isn't his....dash attack....is beyond me.

 

[nirvanafan]

I see Roy and Lucina as potentially being removed as well as Ike. I think Marth, Robin, and Corrin are safe considering they all have unique movesets and represent some of the more popular series entries. I know there is already a thread for this but the more I think about it the more I want Anna as a playable character. To me it just makes a lot of sense and she could be a really cool 4th rep who may use a lot of the other series weapons we have not seen (lance, axe, bow, staff) and just a great overall newcomer.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Ike is never ever getting removed lol

 

[PsychoJosh]

Wario's moveset represents his personality even if it doesn't take moves from Warioland games. I sympathize with people who did not get the Wario they envisioned, but I love the fighter in Smash.
.

I get that it's supposed to reflect his "personality", even if I don't agree with it.

What I don't understand is why they based his moveset on the personality he shows in promotional material over actual moves from his game appearances. It doesn't make any sense. Promotional stuff is just that. It's not supposed to be canonical.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Before Corrin was confirmed, I was looking at Fates stuff and thought that using Dragon Vein would make him an interesting character for a future Smash game.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Fire Emblem is just that interesting to talk about.

But what about Pokémon.

I'm sure we would love another Decidueye vs Incineroar discussion.

 

[Opossum]

Wario's moveset represents his personality even if it doesn't take moves from Warioland games. I sympathize with people who did not get the Wario they envisioned, but I love the fighter in Smash.

I hope if Waluigi is added, the developers try to make a creepy, self-loathing fighter rather than just pulling from Mario Sports.

Even still, I think at the very least Waluigi would use his tennis racket for some moves. He did debut in Mario Tennis, and Sakurai gave him it as a weapon for his Assist Trophy.

That and the air-swimming Up Special, because that's too awesome to leave out.

I know I've brought it up before, but I think we need to get rid of a ton of counters across the board. 12 characters have counters. Twelve.

I'm fine will all the characters staying if development time allows it, but I only want 1/3 of them to keep counters. and the fourth can be any of these

I'd argue Little Mac should keep his slip counter, if only because counter punching is an incredibly big part of the Punch-Out!! series.


For Fire Emblem stuff, I'm still partial to the idea of Smash taking a page from Fire Emblem Heroes. Specifically, making Breidablik an item.

For those who don't know what it is, it's a gun-like weapon that is used by the player to summon heroes. Essentially it's a gun that shoots out Fire Emblem characters. This makes it an interesting potential Assist Trophy/Poké Ball item for Smash. Given how Fire Emblem has exploded in popularity in recent years, this would be a great way to capitalize on it, and give Smash roles to some of the more popular characters without bloating the roster. Lyn could be moved to Breidablik from the Assist Trophy roster, and joining her would be characters like Hector, Alm, Celica, Eirika, Ephraim, Micaiah, Tiki, Caeda, Lissa, Takumi, Ryoma, Xander, Camilla, Azura, and Anna, all of which are either popular or important to their respective games. This is provided any of these guys don't become playable, of course.

I just think something like this could be neat.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I've said my piece about Fire Emblem, I'm not opening that can of worms again.

 

[Kirbeh]

Even still, I think at the very least Waluigi would use his tennis racket for some moves. He did debut in Mario Tennis, and Sakurai gave him it as a weapon for his Assist Trophy.

That and the air-swimming Up Special, because that's too awesome to leave out.


I'd argue Little Mac should keep his slip counter, if only because counter punching is an incredibly big part of the Punch-Out!! series.


For Fire Emblem stuff, I'm still partial to the idea of Smash taking a page from Fire Emblem Heroes. Specifically, making Breidablik an item.

For those who don't know what it is, it's a gun-like weapon that is used by the player to summon heroes. Essentially it's a gun that shoots out Fire Emblem characters. This makes it an interesting potential Assist Trophy/Poké Ball item for Smash. Given how Fire Emblem has exploded in popularity in recent years, this would be a great way to capitalize on it, and give Smash roles to some of the more popular characters without bloating the roster. Lyn could be moved to Breidablik from the Assist Trophy roster, and joining her would be characters like Hector, Alm, Celica, Eirika, Ephraim, Micaiah, Tiki, Caeda, Lissa, Takumi, Ryoma, Xander, Camilla, Azura, and Anna, all of which are either popular or important to their respective games. This is provided any of these guys don't become playable, of course.

I just think something like this could be neat.

That actually sounds like an amazing idea (Both the Waluigi stuff and Breidablik). I think we can still expect people to unhappy with it though. Playable or not they'll still say there's too much FE content and that giving FE an AT/Pokeball item is unfair favoritism...

 

[Roberto zampari]

Is there a possibility that Smash Bros for Nintendo Switch would be announced in the E3 of this year?
If i recall, Sakurai announced Smash Bros 4 in the E3 2011, year that was released the Wii U. (Correct me if i'm wrong)
Would this be repeat?

 

[Deleted member]

I seriously doubt Sakurai would ever demote Lucina or Pittoo back to alts.

That's what nearly happened to however, as he was thought to be an alt at first before giving him playable role for a second time for not conceal his players from Melee.

 

[Bowserlick]

Counters have design space, but they are not fully taken advantage in Smash despite there being so many.

Counters can potentially do many things. Build up meters, change conditions, deal out damage, deal out attack, stun, ect. But counters are not designed equally in the game.

Corrin's counter is simply better than other knock-back counters and the witch's counter has a powerful ability and even an extra feature so her whiffed counter is harder to punish. These have to go.

An example of a novel counter is one I made for a Decidueye moveset. The counter places a bulls-eye on the opponent. Projectiles do more damage and have a homing property toward the marked individual. The duration of the target depends on the strength of the attack.

Simple counters can deal hefty damage or knock-back, but not both. Peach's counter should tack on damage while Marth can be more even-handed and Ike's packing knock-back.

 

[Deleted member]

But what about Pokémon.

I'm sure we would love another Decidueye vs Incineroar discussion.

But what about poor endangered series Metroid, and the idea of having three characters sharing the same name?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Counters have design space, but they are not fully taken advantage in Smash despite there being so many.

Counters can potentially do many things. Build up meters, change conditions, deal out damage, deal out attack, stun, ect. But counters are not designed equally in the game.

Corrin's counter is simply better than other knock-back counters and the witch's counter has a powerful ability and even an extra feature so her whiffed counter is harder to punish. These have to go.

An example of a novel counter is one I made for a Decidueye moveset. The counter places a bulls-eye on the opponent. Projectiles do more damage and have a homing property toward the marked individual. The duration of the target depends on the strength of the attack.

Simple counters can deal hefty damage or knock-back, but not both. Peach's counter should tack on damage while Marth can be more even-handed and Ike's packing knock-back.

Yeah, Counters would a great way to balance moves with effects that are too good to just be a hit-and-apply deal, but only Bayo uses a counter effect other than damage and knockback

 

[Kirbeh]

I think a good way to balance out how good Bayo's counter is would be to give her a Magic Meter like in the games, and make her have to fill up each orb for every counter she wants to use. She'd fill it up by dishing out damage and could still stack a few, she just wouldn't be able to use it as often.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still say, make Lucina the character she should've been. Make her as unique as Roy, and give her Chrom as an alternative character. Boom, total new character by differenciating one slightly. They can give Marth a new alt in the form of Alm, and then by keeping the current cast, that'd be it for Fire Emblem. I think this is the safest approach. If I had to pick one character to be cut, it's Corrin.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Marth, Ike and Robin can stay.

Roy is lower priority, Lucina can be a costume and Corrin is banned from coming back until his/her down B is different.

That's what I'm talking about.

This.

It's literally called the "Dash Attack".
Why it isn't his....dash attack....is beyond me.

Because it's not a "dash attack". It's his shoulder rush which he activates from a standstill. He doesn't need a running start to do it.

I'd much rather have it be his neutral B. His dash attack can be his super headrush from Wario Land 4.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ike is never ever getting removed lol

I really hope this is the case, Ike is still my favorite Lord, and he's like Marth the only main character with more than one game in the leading role. So regarding that, he's still very safe. Sakurai also didn't remove him where he could've easily replaced him for Chrom either, so that's another plus for Ike.

 

[Deleted member]

Because it's not a "dash attack". It's his shoulder rush which he activates from a standstill. He doesn't need a running start to do it.

I'd much rather have it be his neutral B. His dash attack can be his super headrush from Wario Land 4.

DK's somersault and Diddy's cartwheel are the same thing; they don't require a running start and are activated from a standstill in DKC. Yet they serve as their dash attacks in Smash.
Wario's Dash Attack can work as a dash attack just the same.

 

[FalKoopa]

The shoulder bash is a perfect dash attack imo.

It just.... makes sense there.

 

[N3ON]

I'm curious as to who people think will be cut if choices like the last minute clones are being staunchly defended. Every game people think there won't be cuts, or the cuts will be super minimal and only effect clones, and every time people are wrong. Now the roster is only getting bigger and bigger, we're gonna lose some characters.

Personally I think the three clones and the DLC characters are by far the most likely candidates for the axe. Not all of them, but most of them. They were low priority and afterthoughts this time around and I don't think that will change for many of them.

 

[Bowserlick]

Greninja's substitute needs reworking. Down B haves him plant a stuffed frog. The frog can be hit around and off the stage. Another press of down B (if the stuffed frog is on the stage) and Greninja will disappear and reappear in a splash of water where the stuffed toy was.

There would probably have to be a slight cool-down or Greninja might always be able to return to the stage.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm curious as to who people think will be cut if choices like the last minute clones are being staunchly defended. Every game people think there won't be cuts, or the cuts will be super minimal and only effect clones, and every time people are wrong. Now the roster is only getting bigger and bigger, we're gonna lose some characters.

Personally I think the three clones and the DLC characters are by far the most likely candidates for the axe. Not all of them, but most of them. They were low priority and afterthoughts this time around and I don't think that will change for many of them.

I wouldn't say they're being staunchly defended. It's more than likely that the 3 clones will not be considered/or at least be the lowest priority when the next game comes round.

The case people are making for them is that while they are first in line to be cut, due the nature of their incluson in the first place, it's still possible that they might make it back into the roster, depending on how development goes.

Clones like them are kind of a 50/50 toss up. The first to go, but at the same time easy to add in later should the circumstances allow it. I could definitely see the clones making it in again over more unique veterans, not because they'd be a priority, but because, if short on development time, Sakurai may likely chose to throw them in if they can't finish another fully unique character.

 

[Sid-cada]

I'm curious as to who people think will be cut if choices like the last minute clones are being staunchly defended. Every game people think there won't be cuts, or the cuts will be super minimal and only effect clones, and every time people are wrong. Now the roster is only getting bigger and bigger, we're gonna lose some characters.

Personally I think the three clones and the DLC characters are by far the most likely candidates for the axe. Not all of them, but most of them. They were low priority and afterthoughts this time around and I don't think that will change for many of them.

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with you here. These days I tend to think of cuts being a near-inevitability that's going to occur.

I always thought that any DLC character will be more likely to be cut. Because there is no guarantee that everyone who has the game will also have all the DLC, they will be "less missed" than any other veteran.

Honestly, I have to wonder how much the DLC characters' sales stacks up to the game's sales. Between a mixture of people who did not chose to by the DLC out of lack of funds, disinterest in the character, or plain ignorance of them being available, I have to wonder the percentages.

One thing to keep in mind is there most like is sales data they can use to determine who brought people in. If they really have to cut a character (or in the case of third parties, determine if they want to persue licencing fees again), they have a direct measurement of who would probably be best to get the ax.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think everyone will return either, but it's far more likely if this Smash becomes a direct port, and thus basically copy pastes a lot of Smash 4's data, and character work. In that case, a character can become cut due to dificulties in development, similary to Ice Climbers, time constraints, or by choice.

This time, I have honestly no idea who will get cut and who not. I'd just state that third party characters are not too likely to all stay in the game. Sonic is pretty much safe I guess, and I think Bayonetta and Cloud are also very likely to stay. Yet the others am not too confident in.

Shulk could also get cut I feel, he strikes me mostly as a 'one time addition' than most others on the roster. He could simply be replaced by Xenoblade's sequel's main character. Sakurai even stated that characters like him don't normally make the roster. I think that's saying something...

Wii Fit Trainer had lukewarm reception, and could also be seen as a less serious addition that was added to Smash by the development team having fun. Is Wii Fit still as popular as before? I honestly doubt it...

Mii's took a lot of development time, and they are easily the least popular characters in the game. Know anyone who mains Brawler, Gunner or Swordfighter? No, neither do I. These characters should be the first to be considered cut if they looking to spend less development time in brining veterans back. They are pretty useless filler characters honestly.

Dark Pit is easily the least popular clone, character wise. Lucina and Dr.Mario are safer, Dark Pit is likely not to return in Kid Icarus... And Kid Icarus itself also isn't very likely to get a new game. Dark Pit was added when Uprising was all new and all that. I do not think that it's justified to keep Dark Pit around if the franchise isn't running active anymore. Pit and Palutena is enough.

Jigglypuff might even be removed, as it was low priority in Brawl as well. It's literally the only current Pokemon on the roster without insane popularity, and isn't promoted at all anymore. I could see her being cut, especially if we get another Pokemon newcomer and the roster becomes too crowded. Easy DLC content too- don't forget that.

To be quite honest, I could see the Zelda roster getting a major overhaul. And thus meaning the end of characters who are not Link or Zelda... Err... Yeah, so I meant their alternative reincarnations Sheik and Toon Link. But even Ganondorf could be cut, as he's not that much present in the series anymore. BotW's DLC might change that, but honestly, the Zelda roster is a mess.

-It has Zelda and Sheik split up, but due to their movesets being all about """""""BALANCING"""""" the other out (as in, making Zelda next to useless and Sheik overpowered and fast so she can easily 'rack up damage') and thus finally resulted in the majority of Smash 4's lifespan that Sheik was the very best character, and Zelda the very worst. Yay for the removal of Down B transformations!!

-Ganondorf and Toon Link being slowly replaced in the modern day Zelda games. Younger Link take more after the classical Link, as shown in A Link Between Worlds, and Ganondorf hasn't had a proper appearance since Twilight Princess. Demise was the closest thing to a modern day 'Ganondorf', though Ganon is still ever present. Ganondorf, Toon Link and Sheik are mostly there because of their role in ONE game... Considering Ganondorf wasn't even originally planned to be in Twilight Princess, and was shoe-horned in, they might simply run out of ideas of make use of Ganon's human form. In a way, he's much like Sheik, famous only for his Ocarina of Time role... That, and his damn MOVE SET!!!! He's literally the only (semi)clone that takes inspiration from a character who's NOT from his home series. If that's not messy, I don't know what is.

-Hell Link and Zelda THEMSELVES might get a whole different moveset to represent Breath of the Wild. They might just cut all the Zelda characters, and give us New Link and New Zelda instead. If it takes such drastic matters to make the Zelda roster less of a total mess, I'm all for it actually! That, or they need to make new movesets for all of the characters, outside of Sheik (cause she got nothing else to work with- and she FOR NO REASON AT ALL- got more moveset changes than the other Zelda characters who needed it more! YAY FOR KEEPING SHEIK AROUND!!!! ) Toon Link might just stick around for representing the old Link move set of Smash Bros....

I get tired of thinking of the possibilities of the Zelda cast. They could also go all Hyrule Warriors with the cast, but that's somewhat less likely even though all the characters needed being present there. I also doubt we'd get a Hyrule Warriors newcomer if they gonna revamp the movesets of Ganondorf, and some other character(s) to represent Warriors. Then again, even if HYRULE Warriors isn't making a come back on Switch, Warriors does return with Fire Emblem Warriors. So it's still a sign of the massive succes that was Hyrule Warriors. So Impa still has a chance

 

[Bowserlick]

If Smash Switch is a port, all the characters should be in the roster. Not everyone who has Smash 4 has all the DL characters.

If Smash Switch is not a port, then characters will be cut.

 

[Deleted member]

Dark Pit is likely not to return in Kid Icarus...

Umm, why?

No seriously, on what grounds is Dark Pit not likely to show up in a future Kid Icarus title? There's literally no reason for him to be scrapped from the franchise.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Umm, why?

Well tbh I don't think that Kid Icarus is ever gonna get another game, especially if Sakurai is not gonna do it.