Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[vaanrose]

So has there been any discussion on the Chad Ganondorf leak as corroborating evidence in favor of Grinch? Because to me that's easily the strongest evidence for as it predicts the exact same roster of 7 different characters well before the Grinch leak came to light, but I barely ever see anyone mention it.

What was the timeline for this?

 

[Tyrathius]

So has there been any discussion on the Chad Ganondorf leak as corroborating evidence in favor of Grinch? Because to me that's easily the strongest evidence for as it predicts the exact same roster of 7 different characters well before the Grinch leak came to light, but I barely ever see anyone mention it.

It could have been the same guy though, or just someone who saw his leak and decided to copy it to add "legitimacy".

There's not really any way to determine what, if any connection exists between the two AFAIK.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

-Direct Opens-​

Sakurai (the absolute madman): Hello. Let's cut right to the chase. Here are the Final Fighters in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

-Queue 5 ****in trailers in a row-​

Sakurai: Did you like it? Actually we do have two more echo fighters for you.

-Talks about Shadow and Ken for a minute-​

Sakurai: Now let's go over the new modes we haven't shown you yet.

- All the new modes and other content is shown-​

Sakurai: That's all for today's Direct and we hope you look forward to the release of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on December 7th. Oh, one more thing, here's a quick look at the future of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate through DLC. Please enjoy.

-Queue Inceneroar trailer-​

Smash Community:

I'm calling it right now.

That is IF the leak is real.

They're not going to put in an old and busted mon for DLC over the new hotness. Let's be real here. Incineroar supporters are really starting to grasp for straws.

 

[Rummy]

What was the timeline for this?

It was posted in September, Oddly enough it seemed like his english was a bit more beginner than most.

 

[Flyboy]

Oh God, this is how Sakurai is giving the trolls voting for John Cena representation

HUSTLE LOYALTY RESPECT

OUR FIRE CAT WILL NEVER QUIT

 

[Idon]

Shulk is able to hurt Palutena even though he has the normal Monado.

---

To be fair, Shulk says it can't hurt beings of Bionis, homs, specifically.
For plot reasons, it'd make sense for the monado not to want to hurt those specific people, but would be totally fine with say, completely bisecting another deity.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Ken and Shadow are also third parties. That's four total-- and separate-- third parties. You had Capcom, Sega and Square Enix sharing the spotlight in one video, with Microsoft coming in only one week removed in another.

So yes, I did read your post. I simply disagreed with it based on precedence.

You're absolutely right--and I take the correction, I should have referred to two unique characters separated by a Direct. I do think echoes are qualitatively different, which is why I don't think they should impact my count, because Chrom/Dark Samus were thrown in together despite being from two separate series without CGI trailers for them. Sakurai does treat echoes differently, in terms of how they are presented.

I'm not saying the leak is set in stone (it's 60-40 for me like I said). But this is the best way I see them presenting all of them if the leak is true.

 

[Serebii]

Let me guess, they said something like...

"B-B-But the leak is missing Incineroar!...", right?

I'm starting to think a whole lot of people got duped by Nintendo. Like, seriously? EVERYONE has insider information and somehow knows about Incineroar, but aren't willing to divulge what they know at this point? You guys got MEGA duped.

If anyone with "insider information" is reading this, either spill the beans so we can all figure this out or just shut up. List your sources and reveal what you know so we can figure this out and get out of the circle we're running 'round and 'round in. We're visibly starved for information here, and we'd all appreciate it if one of you could take the fall and ruin your lovely and meaningful friendship with this random source all of you seem to share.

"Wow, Wambo, that's a horrible thing to ask of someone. Ruin a friendship over a video game?"

A lot of people seem to share the same source, so I doubt they're super ultra mega best friends. The fact that they can't share their source makes me think that it's someone we know, like Bill, or some rando at Nintendo.

Again, somebody, PLEASE SPEAK OUT.

Not that I commented on the rumour (I didn't really, but people construed it).

However, I do think you misunderstand things with people with inside information. Yeah there's a lot of people who say **** for clout when they're wrong so often like Marcus Sellars or for clout and to have a holier than thou attitude, despite not a spotless record like Liam Robertson and LKD.

However, most people with insider information don't post to do the "nerr nerr I know more than you" thing. In fact, they use insider information to prepare or just to know things. They don't share it because it risks their own job/position and the job/position of any contacts.

 

[osby]

They're not going to put in an old and busted mon for DLC over the new hotness. Let's be real here. Incineroar supporters are really starting to grasp for straws.

We still have no idea what the new hotness is. It's not like they're going to put a Pokemon on us before we even know the game it's from.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I could buy this, but the big difference between the banners is that the leaked one is missing stuff. The entire castle structure over the waterfall, for example, is replaced with nothing in the leaked banner. So, for this theory to be true, the decision would be instead to remove detail, and only in the places where detail was obscured by the crowd.

I suppose the line of thinking there if official and real could be ''What's the point of detail if you can't make it out because a chunk of characters are going to be standing/posing in front of it."

But then on the other side it's ''Why even draw that detail at all if you're not gonna use it? Is it thus just space filler until the real deal comes out?"

 

[Das Koopa]

SPROUT MEGAPOST

So, in a Wendy's promotional video, we saw this -

OH, THE PASTABILITIES

Many seem to think this is a Growth-related item from Golden Sun. Here is a Dark Dawn version for clarification -

This could be the case. It has been proposed that these could be use to grow climbable vines, and ladder attacks are a promoted feature.


NEW TEAM HEALER?

It's been suggested that this is, perhaps, a new team healing item. I do not agree with this. What we saw was a 1v1, and in the 3DS & Wii U versions, team items do not spawn EVEN WHEN TEAM MODE IS SELECTED for 1v1. They only spawn with 3+ players.

Additionally, while many items have been redesigned, this would be an extremely drastic redesign that goes from a floating, stationary orb we've seen for 2 entries to a ground-planted sprout with an orb that does not have streaks like Team Heal has.

NEW HEALING ITEM?

This has also been proposed as a possible explanation. One aspect that is NOT being discussed about this item is that it would need to be plucked in order to make sense, and my hypothetical proposition is that it may have a similar effect to the Healing Field item if pulled. This is, however, pretty redundant since this item -

...Can presumably just be thrown down. It should be noted that despite the visual similarities between the sprouts, this item has gone unchanged. It is advertised on the Smash website as-is, has been seen in demo footage, and was shown in a Nintendo Direct.

Additionally, I've seen it suggested that a sprout would have to be associated with healing. However, this may not necessarily be the case, as Villager has a sprout, and a sprout icon exists in the Wii U item quantity slider. It is as much associated with healing in Smash as it is with tree growth and menu options.


OTHER IDEAS

Probably not since Ramblin' Evil Mushrooms exist, but it's worth considering.

I'm not sure how this would function since in-transit the item is seed-based. It would make sense if the item spawned as a deku-nut like item, got thrown, latched on and sapped, but spawning as a sprout doesn't go in line with this.

The Flora Sprout from Super Paper Mario was used for mind control. Not a terrible suggestion, in my opinion, since maybe you could throw it and if it connects your opponent's controls are reversed, but it would be very unusual to see a random, one-off Super Paper Mario reference with only a vague backing concept.

This item has been spotted in Ultimate already, but an underrated possibility is that a Sprout is simply an ALTERNATE of this. Grass is considered a capsule item, much like crates, party balls, and capsules - and some of those have alternates. However, my issue is that grass does NOT have a bubble surrounding it in Smash Ultimate based on the image that surfaced. It would be redundant if it wasn't an alternate in the same vein as present Crates or sci-fi barrels.

VERDICT

It would seem to be redundant if it were simply another healing item when the Healing Field almost supersedes any purpose it might have, especially in tandem with existing healing items like the tomato, heart, & so forth. There are some options from other games, but they range into being obscure, or impractical, unless the Sprout item itself is just visually weird.

I honestly do think that it could be an item you pull that grows vines to climb. Would that automatically make it a Golden Sun item? No, it could hypothetically be Mario-related instead, though that's more associated with stems. If it exists, would it confirm Isaac? Not necessarily, since items like Lip's Flower exist, though between that and the speculation over the Rathalos image, I'd have to concede that Isaac's chances would greatly increase if an item similar to something from his games is in after his AT and most Golden Sun references were outright removed in Smash 4.

Now, if we keep making assumptions, do we assume the leak is true if this somehow confirms Isaac? I think it should be looked at skeptically. If Isaac is in, we'll know based on his mural position, as is the case with ANY character announcement. Isaac being in doesn't confirm the Grinch Leak, but I'd agree it would start to tilt pretty heavily in favor of it, and it would be confirmed/debunked by the time the mural updated since we know where to look for Isaac.

I currently don't know what to think, as is the case with the actual mural/Grinch Leak itself, though the mural details Vaanrose has shown make me lean fake.

 

[JoyStar]

But that's the thing. If Ken and some other newcomer is all that's left, I think this whole hype cycle will result in everyone with that mentality feeling bitter about a game that has a ludicrous amount of music, stages, hardcore-catering changes and Ridley and K. Rool.

It's why I'm kind of a buzzkill from time to time. I think we have our heads way too far in the clouds and forget that the game we have, as it stands right now, is pretty ****ing awesome.

True.

Honestly though, I was sold on the game as soon as I saw Mewtwo was back. XD

 

[PLATINUM7]

What was the timeline for this?

Near the end of september based on timestamp.

So has there been any discussion on the Chad Ganondorf leak as corroborating evidence in favor of Grinch? Because to me that's easily the strongest evidence for as it predicts the exact same roster of 7 different characters well before the Grinch leak came to light, but I barely ever see anyone mention it.

It's kind of hard to say how it contributes.
Could be the same person.
Could be the person who made the banner is piggybacking off this leak.
Could be 2 different people leaking the same real information. This could ply into what Tansut said about there being a real leak out there. Of course, this isn't necessarily it.

 

[Robertman2]

Anything happen in the last 12 hours?

Other than that item

 

[KamikazePotato]

I mean yeah it could've been the same guy, but that requires even more planning than the ridiculous amount we already got. If it's not the same person, but a copycat, that's also possible but the Chad Ganondorf leak wasn't super major/publicized or anything. I consider its existence well before Grinch came out (at least if I'm getting the timeline right) to be a significantly bigger deal than a lot of the other evidence thrown around.

 

[perfectchaos83]

What was the timeline for this?

It was posted September 29th. To me, it strikes me as convenient since he details cut characters, one of which is Ray 01. Just a few days prior it was announced that the trademark for Custom Robo was forcibly cancelled due to lack of evidence of Nintendo utilizing the Trademark. What better time to include Ray getting cut in a leak than that, right?

 

[joshoctober16]

i posted this but it wasnt talk yesterday , the main image evreyone is talking is just a zoom in of the strap one shown above... also this means we can look at the above photo for the background image... why hasnt anyone tougth of this??? , this also means this image has that loop effect the site has , i can see the crystals on the above one so it could be helpfull (still at page 6185)

 

[Iko MattOrr]

That's why I try to temper expectations with this leak. I genuinely believe it to be an elaborate fake, and I'm worried that this community will have a hell of a hangover when reality hits.

I'd love for #TeamFake to be wrong. I just don't think we are.

I believe it's fake as well, though at this point I don't even care anymore.
Wathever happens, I'm still happy because the roster is fine (if it's true I would have even got one of my long time most wanted, Geno), and a certain character I don't want to be in doesn't seem to be in.
So, fake or true, I don't care anymore.
At the moment I'm more curious about what the heck that sprout item is (it can be from Golden Sun, but it also can be from other stuff or an original item).
And I want desperately a direct because I'm sick of waiting, and of those doubtful leaks spawning everywhere (and people occasionally trusting them).

Anyway, so far the only character we are almost certain that will be in the game is Ken, and even that's not 100% guaranteed yet (if it's fake, congratulations to the author of the picture, it would be the best fake ever).

 

[TreeBranch]

But that's the thing. If Ken and some other newcomer is all that's left, I think this whole hype cycle will result in everyone with that mentality feeling bitter about a game that has a ludicrous amount of music, stages, hardcore-catering changes and Ridley and K. Rool.

It's why I'm kind of a buzzkill from time to time. I think we have our heads way too far in the clouds and forget that the game we have, as it stands right now, is pretty ****ing awesome.

This is what I'm scared of as well. Before this leak, we were all tempering our expectations. We expected at most 3 new characters, and if we got more than that we'd be even happier. This leak, with its absolute dream roster and massive amount of characters, is setting our expectations way too high, and will probably lead to massive disappointment if it's fake. Box theory sucked, but at least we could only improve from there.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

Not that I commented on the rumour (I didn't really, but people construed it).

However, I do think you misunderstand things with people with inside information. Yeah there's a lot of people who say **** for clout when they're wrong so often like Marcus Sellars or for clout and to have a holier than thou attitude, despite not a spotless record like Liam Robertson and LKD.

However, most people with insider information don't post to do the "nerr nerr I know more than you" thing. In fact, they use insider information to prepare or just to know things. They don't share it because it risks their own job/position and the job/position of any contacts.

Ah! It's Serebii. I didn't expect to see you here.

We still have no idea what the new hotness is. It's not like they're going to put a Pokemon on us before we even know the game it's from.

They did something like that in the previous game with Corrin even though his game wasn't released outside of Japan yet. Introducing a brand new never-before-seen-Pokemon as DLC would be a perfect way to drum up hype and interest in Gen 8. They're definitely going to be focusing on it heavily next year, and as we've seen from FE, Smash is incredibly effective when used as a marketing tool.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Is it possible this is all a giant elaborate 4Chan fake with multiple people behind it?

The thought briefly crossed my mind because of how intricate this web has been woven and how a lot of it's details have originated from there.

 

[PLATINUM7]

SPROUT MEGAPOST

So, in a Wendy's promotional video, we saw this -

OH, THE PASTABILITIES

Many seem to think this is a Growth-related item from Golden Sun. Here is a Dark Dawn version for clarification -

This could be the case. It has been proposed that these could be use to grow climbable vines, and ladder attacks are a promoted feature.


NEW TEAM HEALER?

It's been suggested that this is, perhaps, a new team healing item. I do not agree with this. What we saw was a 1v1, and in the 3DS & Wii U versions, team items do not spawn EVEN WHEN TEAM MODE IS SELECTED for 1v1. They only spawn with 3+ players.

Additionally, while many items have been redesigned, this would be an extremely drastic redesign that goes from a floating, stationary orb we've seen for 2 entries to a ground-planted sprout with an orb that does not have streaks like Team Heal has.

NEW HEALING ITEM?

This has also been proposed as a possible explanation. One aspect that is NOT being discussed about this item is that it would need to be plucked in order to make sense, and my hypothetical proposition is that it may have a similar effect to the Healing Field item if pulled. This is, however, pretty redundant since this item -

...Can presumably just be thrown down. It should be noted that despite the visual similarities between the sprouts, this item has gone unchanged. It is advertised on the Smash website as-is, has been seen in demo footage, and was shown in a Nintendo Direct.

Additionally, I've seen it suggested that a sprout would have to be associated with healing. However, this may not necessarily be the case, as Villager has a sprout, and a sprout icon exists in the Wii U item quantity slider. It is as much associated with healing in Smash as it is with tree growth and menu options.


OTHER IDEAS

Probably not since Ramblin' Evil Mushrooms exist, but it's worth considering.

I'm not sure how this would function since in-transit the item is seed-based. It would make sense if the item spawned as a deku-nut like item, got thrown, latched on and sapped, but spawning as a sprout doesn't go in line with this.

The Flora Sprout from Super Paper Mario was used for mind control. Not a terrible suggestion, in my opinion, since maybe you could throw it and if it connects your opponent's controls are reversed, but it would be very unusual to see a random, one-off Super Paper Mario reference with only a vague backing concept.

This item has been spotted in Ultimate already, but an underrated possibility is that a Sprout is simply an ALTERNATE of this. Grass is considered a capsule item, much like crates, party balls, and capsules - and some of those have alternates. However, my issue is that grass does NOT have a bubble surrounding it in Smash Ultimate based on the image that surfaced. It would be redundant if it wasn't an alternate in the same vein as present Crates or sci-fi barrels.

VERDICT

It would seem to be redundant if it were simply another healing item when the Healing Field almost supersedes any purpose it might have, especially in tandem with existing healing items like the tomato, heart, & so forth. There are some options from other games, but they range into being obscure, or impractical, unless the Sprout item itself is just visually weird.

I honestly do think that it could be an item you pull that grows vines to climb. Would that automatically make it a Golden Sun item? No, it could hypothetically be Mario-related instead, though that's more associated with stems. If it exists, would it confirm Isaac? Not necessarily, since items like Lip's Flower exist, though between that and the speculation over the Rathalos image, I'd have to concede that Isaac's chances would greatly increase if an item similar to something from his games is in after his AT and most Golden Sun references were outright removed in Smash 4.

Now, if we keep making assumptions, do we assume the leak is true if this somehow confirms Isaac? I think it should be looked at skeptically. If Isaac is in, we'll know based on his mural position, as is the case with ANY character announcement. Isaac being in doesn't confirm the Grinch Leak, but I'd agree it would start to tilt pretty heavily in favor of it, and it would be confirmed/debunked by the time the mural updated since we know where to look for Isaac.

I currently don't know what to think, as is the case with the actual mural/Grinch Leak itself, though the mural details Vaanrose has shown make me lean fake.

Why would it be the floro-sprout reversing controls when then ramblin evil shroom does the same thing?

 

[Paperchampion23]

I could buy this, but the big difference between the banners is that the leaked one is missing stuff. The entire castle structure over the waterfall, for example, is replaced with nothing in the leaked banner. So, for this theory to be true, the decision would be instead to remove detail, and only in the places where detail was obscured by the crowd.

Changes weren't just made to things obscured by characters. The cloud above Bayonetta changed completely and it has been entirely visible since June.

 

[Chrono.]

Off topic, but I approve of your screen name ^_^

lol It took me a minute to catch why.

But thank you, great minds think alike.

 

[JoyStar]

Well, it's late here so I'm heading to sleep. Probably going to have some pages to catch up on in the morning, lol. Good night!

 

[Das Koopa]

Why would it be the floro-sprout reversing controls when then ramblin evil shroom does the same thing?

That's the only thing I can think of it feasibly doing, tbh. As said already, I don't believe the Floro Sprout is what this is supposed to be.

 

[osby]

They did something like that in the previous game with Corrin even though his game wasn't released outside of Japan yet.

The game was still released for over six months, though. It's not like people had no idea what a Corrin was.

 

[staindgrey]

You're absolutely right--and I take the correction, I should have referred to two unique characters separated by a Direct. I do think echoes are qualitatively different, which is why I don't think they should impact my count, because Chrom/Dark Samus were thrown in together despite being from two separate series without CGI trailers for them. Sakurai does treat echoes differently, in terms of how they are presented.

I'm not saying the leak is set in stone (it's 60-40 for me like I said). But this is the best way I see them presenting all of them if the leak is true.

I respectfully disagree. But at the same time, I don't really have a better idea, should the leak be true. So your guess is as good as mine.

Just because a third party's character is an echo character, though, doesn't mean they would be fine with a passing, "Oh yeah, and here's Ken," sort of moment. Even Richter got his own animated sequence. From a marketing perspective-- and a history of companies being very protective of their IPs-- I have a hard time seeing Capcom, Sega and Square Enix all being fine with sharing the spotlight in a single video. I'm sure these sorts of things come up in negotiations for using the characters, like how game companies argued over the sizes of their characters in Wreck-it-Ralph because their character should be the biggest in the room.

But, like I said, I don't have any better ideas.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

If spirits mode is indeed a story mode where it's a crossover story like SSE

and the grinch leak is real

imagine how amazing that story is gonna be with all these legends

 

[ZephyrZ]

Near the end of september based on timestamp.

I'm normally opposed to judging a leaker's credibility based off of their personality but oh my gosh that post reeks so hard of being a 4Chan troll. I just can't take that thing seriously.

 

[Zinith]

That's the only thing I can think of it feasibly doing, tbh. As said already, I don't believe the Floro Sprout is what this is supposed to be.

Like I said earlier, the Floro-Sprout could be used where the victim is forced to mirror the moves of the owner of the sprout (the bubble surrounding it could change color to indicate who's in possession)

 

[PLATINUM7]

I respectfully disagree. But at the same time, I don't really have a better idea, should the leak be true. So your guess is as good as mine.

Just because a third party's character is an echo character, though, doesn't mean they would be fine with a passing, "Oh yeah, and here's Ken," sort of moment. Even Richter got his own animated sequence. From a marketing perspective-- and a history of companies being very protective of their IPs-- I have a hard time seeing Capcom, Sega and Square Enix all being fine with sharing the spotlight in a single video. I'm sure these sorts of things come up in negotiations for using the characters, like how game companies argued over the sizes of their characters in Wreck-it-Ralph because their character should be the biggest in the room.

But, like I said, I don't have any better ideas.

Well they might as well get use to it because their characters will be sharing the same spotlight in game.

 

[CosmicQuark]

So has there been any discussion on the Chad Ganondorf leak as corroborating evidence in favor of Grinch? Because to me that's easily the strongest evidence for as it predicts the exact same roster of 7 different characters well before the Grinch leak came to light, but I barely ever see anyone mention it.

While I think the Grinch leak is real, I'd actually consider the 4chan post a point against it. It's one of those profanity laden, argumentative 4chan leaks that I often disregard with barely a look (also includes claiming characters that are not there, which is often a bad sign for a leak). So if I doubt that leak, I feel like it casts doubt on this one as well (not much, the other reasons for supporting it are sufficient). That being said, the ESRB leak included Mother****ing Leaker so--the only thing I know for certain is people are weird

 

[PhilosophicAnimal]

But that's the thing. If Ken and some other newcomer is all that's left, I think this whole hype cycle will result in everyone with that mentality feeling bitter about a game that has a ludicrous amount of music, stages, hardcore-catering changes and Ridley and K. Rool.

It's why I'm kind of a buzzkill from time to time. I think we have our heads way too far in the clouds and forget that the game we have, as it stands right now, is pretty ****ing awesome.

Well...I have to give you points for that one. Sometimes we lose sight of how amazing this game is going to be, simply because our character hasn't been revealed yet, or because we keep dreaming that even more is possible...though you have to admit, after Sakurai indulging us so much with those two very large picks (literally, ) It's easy for us to be tempted to snap up stuff like this leak. It doesn't help that he's holding off so long on more info when we know there are fighters left.

Still, there's plenty to love in this game already. Not saying I don't want this leak to be true or think it is, but it's a good idea to remember just how much cool crap we have right now. I'm even much more excited about Inkling now that I've finally gotten into Splatoon.

So look forward to the possible future, while appreciating the present.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm normally opposed to judging a leaker's credibility based off of their personality but oh my gosh that post reeks so hard of being a 4Chan troll. I just can't take that thing seriously.

ESRB Leak was started by "The Mother****ing Leaker", don't forget.

 

[vaanrose]

Changes weren't just made to things obscured by characters. The cloud above Bayonetta changed completely and it has been entirely visible since June.

I know you're referring to the infamous smear, but it's important to me it's made clear to anyone reading this that the clouds have not changed in any of the official banners.

Here is E3, 8.8, Current.

As for the smear itself, explanations have been given for that on both sides of the argument.

 

[alemerltoucanet]

Am I the only that wants a Bayonetta echo fighter just to see salt?

(if we get one, I'm predicting it'll be Rosa)

 

[staindgrey]

However, most people with insider information don't post to do the "nerr nerr I know more than you" thing. In fact, they use insider information to prepare or just to know things. They don't share it because it risks their own job/position and the job/position of any contacts.

Exactly. People with insider information are rarely "leakers" in it for the anonymous internet fame. They use that information to get a leg up on people outside of the know. By the time, say, Ken is announced, they already have a video prepped and ready to launch on Youtube the moment everyone else knows about him. They get all the hype hits and subscriptions first while other people just finding out about it are busy making their videos.

 

[ZephyrZ]

ESRB Leak was started by "The Mother****ing Leaker", don't forget.

Yeah, I suppose so. I'd probably be more willing to give that guy some consideration if I wasn't already Team Fake because of those background inconsistencies, but for now I'll just laugh it off as a 4channer just being a 4channer.

 

[Mutsukki]

Hoo boy... These next 2 or 3 weeks are going to be long as hell won't they