Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Chandeelure]

Waluigi? Daisy? Toad?!

Give me King Boo, he has more moveset potential than all of them combined only for being a ghost.

Also, he is Luigi's real rival for me.

 

[RosiePeaches]

I am a bit iffy on Paper Mario, purely for the fact that it will be a Mario Kart 8 Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach situation. Unique characters based off the same character with new animations and moves. Clones at least don't take up development time, but in the case of Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach, they essentially took up the slots of other potential characters. This would be true with Paper Mario too. Especially as him being added might mean we won't get other fan favourite characters and instead get a third Mario.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I would be super sad if 8 Player Smash was removed.

It's an outstanding mode that's made parties and club meetings ten times better.

I love it.

Not to mention. This:

How else do you make this beauty happen? Like seriously. Worth 8 player smash alone.

 

[Deleted member]

Not to mention. This:

How else do you make this beauty happen? Like seriously. Worth 8 player smash alone.

>Bayonetta is there over Pikachu despite being a niche video game character vs one of the most iconic characters in pop culture
I'm triggered

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I am a bit iffy on Paper Mario, purely for the fact that it will be a Mario Kart 8 Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach situation. Unique characters based off the same character with new animations and moves. Clones at least don't take up development time, but in the case of Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach, they essentially took up the slots of other potential characters. This would be true with Paper Mario too. Especially as him being added might mean we won't get other fan favourite characters and instead get a third Mario.

Mario Kart and Smash are two different things though.

The clones in MK8 are lazy because it's the same model, but either dumped in metallic paint or given a furry outit.

Paper Mario is already a completely different thing because he'd need a completely new model due to how different he looks.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Not to mention. This:

How else do you make this beauty happen? Like seriously. Worth 8 player smash alone.

Who's the second one from the right?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Honestly would be very weird to see Doc use Fludd.

It's pretty weird seeing regular Mario use F.L.U.D.D. as well

 

[Tree Gelbman]

>Bayonetta is there over Pikachu despite being a niche video game character vs one of the most iconic characters in pop culture
I'm triggered

She's still iconic. I think the point is she's not a Nintendo character.

I'd have personally put Pikachu in Link's place, but I get what you're saying, but you're also missing what the image is saying.

 

[RosiePeaches]

Mario Kart and Smash are two different things though.

The clones in MK8 are lazy because it's the same model, but either dumped in metallic paint or given a furry outit.

Paper Mario is already a completely different thing because he'd need a completely new model due to how different he looks.

That is my point. A lot of work would go into making another Mario. To the observer, he would be Mario but flat.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

>Bayonetta is there over Pikachu despite being a niche video game character vs one of the most iconic characters in pop culture
I'm triggered

Just pretend Pikachu is there instead of Bayonetta and the line-up with make more sense to be honest.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

This hate on for Bayonetta is funny as hell to me. Why are ya'll so pressed?

Chill. That's not even them trying to slight Pikachu.

And hey did you know that different types of video game icons matter? Not just your mega-watt stars.

 

[Lyndis_]

She's still iconic. I think the point is she's not a Nintendo character.

I'd have personally put Pikachu in Link's place, but I get what you're saying, but you're also missing what the image is saying.

I really wouldn't call Bayonetta iconic by any stretch of the imagination tbh. I'd consider her somewhat niche.

I am a bit iffy on Paper Mario, purely for the fact that it will be a Mario Kart 8 Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach situation. Unique characters based off the same character with new animations and moves. Clones at least don't take up development time, but in the case of Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach, they essentially took up the slots of other potential characters. This would be true with Paper Mario too. Especially as him being added might mean we won't get other fan favourite characters and instead get a third Mario.

but Paper Mario is the fan favorite to many. I don't see how others are better just because they aren't similar to Mario visually.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Captain Toad's games were designed around him being unable to jump.

Who cares? Also there's plenty of ways you can recover without jumping. What if Captain Toad had a recovery where he's abducted by Wingo or he has a propeller box? He can be the only character that can't jump, but also have the best recovery in the game.
And also he can jump in Super Mario Maker.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

She's most certainly a cult gaming icon.

There's a reason Nintendo swopped into save her franchise after all.

Just because you don't personally like her. Doesn't rob her of what she's achieved as a small time gaming hit.

 

[Lyndis_]

Who cares. Also there's plenty of ways you can recover without jumping. What if Captain Toad had a recovery where he's abducted by Wingo or he has a propeller box. He can be the only character that can't jump, but also have the best recovery in the game.

Well that's pretty much what I meant when I said they should work around him not being able to jump. I feel like taking away that part of him strips him off one of the main things that makes him unique.

I'd settle for him just being unable to double jump, honestly. I consider that a good middle ground.

She's most certainly a cult gaming icon.

There's a reason Nintendo swopped into save her franchise after all.

Just because you don't personally like her. Doesn't rob her of what she's achieved as a small time gaming hit.

When did I ever say that I didn't like her? I feel like this is the Daisy scenario all over again but you're taking the opposite side. All I said was that she's somewhat niche, which is true. Not that she doesn't deserve to be in the game or anything.

 

[pupNapoleon]

>Bayonetta is there over Pikachu despite being a niche video game character vs one of the most iconic characters in pop culture
I'm triggered

Settle it in Smash!

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This hate on for Bayonetta is funny as hell to me. Why are ya'll so pressed?

Some people don't think she was the real ballot winner and some people think she's too inappropriate for Smash. And some people just didn't think she was big enough third-party character to justify being in the same game as Mega Man.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Well Mario is the biggest franchise in the Nintendo space by quite a margin. And it doesn't take the majority of the roster at all.

Oh, okay. Let's add twenty Mario characters I guess.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because you don't personally like her. Doesn't rob her of what she's achieved as a small time gaming hit.

I don't even dislike Bayonetta. You're putting words in ny mouth.
But she's less iconic than Kirby.

 

[?????????????]

Bayonetta won a vote of "character most people want to see in Smash Bros."

She's already proved herself.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Oh, okay. Let's add twenty Mario characters I guess.

Yeah that's the plan

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Bayonetta won a vote of "character most people want to see in Smash Bros."

She's already proved herself.

Among realizable characters. We don't know who did better than her.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Some people don't think she was the real ballot winner and some people think she's to inappropriate. And some people just didn't think she was big enough third-party character to justify being in the same game as Mega Man.

I love how fans think they are the arbiter of who deserves a spot in the game.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Some people don't think she was the real ballot winner and some people think she's too inappropriate for Smash. And some people just didn't think she was big enough third-party character to justify being in the same game as Mega Man.

My thoughts on the ballot (pure speculation):
1- I think they really wanted it to be a third party character
2- They needed that third party character to be easy to sign on (meaning, legally already cleared)
3- This lead to only current third party companys' characters being considered.
4- Of these, Bayonetta was the top choice from a new franchise.

 

[Deleted member]

OKAY, I DIDN'T INTEND TO TAKE THE THREAD TO THAT DIRECTION.
Literally all I was saying is that she's not iconic and therefore doesn't really fit into the theme of that picture.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Yeah that's the plan

But, why not? It's the biggest series in the game!

 

[Michelaar]

Personally I feel that the Donkey Kong Franchise is quite underrepresened and is the only franchise that in my opinion needs more reps. There are tons of options too, Dixie, Cranky, K.Rool, Funky Kong. I've heard people say that Dixie would be way too similiar to Dixie, and it makes me wonder how many people that say that have actually played her games. They could make an entire moveset with just her hair, she has no excuse of being a clone.

I am also very against just making characters costumes. It feels like it just takes away a lot of uniqueness from the character which I dislike. I'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, what does tomboy even really imply anyway? I always just thought of Daisy as loud and energetic.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tomboy
"A tomboy is a girl who has tastes and behaviors usually associated with boys. Because these associations are culture-dependent and tend to change, what exactly constitutes a "Tomboy" is subjective. Especially historically, any girl interested in science, mechanics, sport, or combat has been called tomboyish."
Basically, it's vague, as exemplified by the numerous sub-tropes. But if we take the "girl who acts in a way or likes things traditionally associated with boys", then Daisy doesn't even come close.
And if someone wants to argue about how she "plays sports" then every female Mario character is a tomboy.

Link or Olimar's inability to jump aren't integral parts of their design, nor do they have an actual reason for not being able to do outside of gameplay (Captain Toad's being his heavy backpack prevents him from jumping).

Those are integral parts of their gameplay too though, the game wouldn't work if they could jump at the player's will.

Still, the "X thing is integral to character but they can't work as a fighter because of it" argument is stupid. Smash characters aren't 1:1 of their original counterparts, they are adaptations so they can fit in a fighting game, something I believe Sakurai realised when he went back on his word about Villager.
"Should this character who, by all merits, should be in the game, be excluded simply because it wouldn't make sense within canon?"
Sonic can't swim in his games and that's a vital part of gameplay, yet he can swim in Smash; Bayonetta becomes nude when using some of her attacks in her games but she was changed to fit her into Smash; Kirby can infinitely jump in his games but he was given a limit to make him a balanced fighter; Pokemon can only have 4 moves at a time yet Pikachu has 5, Charizard has 6 and Greinja has 5/6.
I could go on and on but I think you get my point.

Tl;dr a character's limitations in-canon has never stopped anyone from being made into a playable fighter

Overtly energetic when competing in athletics - Her reactions in Mario Strikers series. Pretty common among tomboys.

Punches Bowser (not slaps, punches) in mario party 3... pretty tomboyish.

And she’s being judged as a tomboy as an English translation of a culture that sees any woman acting less demure than Peach or Hinata from Naruto as tomboyish. Which makes most the females in the Nintendo canon except for Peach and Isabelle tomboys.

Energetic isn't a tomboyish trope, Genki Girl is a thing. Also, tomboyish=/=competitive

Guess Sumia is a tomboy then, look at that punch she gave Chrom!

If you're gonna use the "Japanese culture" argument, then you should know tomboys are very explicit in Japanese media, like, they'll have short hair, use clothing associated with men and so forth.
Next you're gonna tell me Samus is a tomboy.

Also, by your argument, at least 90% of Nintendo's female characters are tomboys so then Daisy has nothing special for herself ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Some people don't think she was the real ballot winner and some people think she's too inappropriate for Smash. And some people just didn't think she was big enough third-party character to justify being in the same game as Mega Man.

So conspiracy theorists, people who were proven wrong considering she's toned down from her games but still feels appropriate to them in Smash, and others who have a valid opinion but really just don't understand that at this point she's Nintendo's IP that's owned by Sega.

There's a reason why she was so realizable and it's because Nintendo practically owns her.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I seriously can't consider Bayonetta a gaming icon when her franchise only got saved by Nintendo swooping in unasked. I'm incredibly happy she got in though

Some people don't think she was the real ballot winner.

Those people are ****ing idiots and should be ignored

 

[Lyndis_]

Personally I feel that the Donkey Kong Franchise is quite underrepresened and is the only franchise that in my opinion needs more reps. There are tons of options too, Dixie, Cranky, K.Rool, Funky Kong. I've heard people say that Dixie would be way too similiar to Dixie, and it makes me wonder how many people that say that have actually played her games. They could make an entire moveset with just her hair, she has no excuse of being a clone.

I am also very against just making characters costumes. It feels like it just takes away a lot of uniqueness from the character which I dislike. I'm sure i'm not the only one.

K. Rool and Dixie are definitely high up there on my most wanted newcomers, first party anyways. After Tropical Freeze being arguably one of the best platformers ever made I'd be very sad to not see DKC getting some more representation in Smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Among realizable characters. We don't know who did better than her.

Considering the direct said Bayonetta scored better than characters from past games...

I think its still a very valid victory.

 

[Opossum]

OKAY, I DIDN'T INTEND TO TAKE THE THREAD TO THAT DIRECTION.
Literally all I was saying is that she's not iconic and therefore doesn't really fit into the theme of that picture.

The theme of the picture was all of those characters from different companies coming together. Two from Nintendo, Sega, and Capcom, and one from Square Enix and Bandai Namco.

You missed the point of the picture entirely.

 

[MSmariosonic]

She's most certainly a cult gaming icon.

There's a reason Nintendo swopped into save her franchise after all.

Just because you don't personally like her. Doesn't rob her of what she's achieved as a small time gaming hit.

I was happy when Bayonetta got announced for Smash. Any Sega character is good for me.

But it is a bit of a stretch to put her in the 'iconic video game character' category. She's by far the least iconic 3rd party character to ever be in Smash.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

At this point I regret even posting the picture.

I forgot Bayonetta is all that is wrong with current Smash to some people around these parts.

Sorry, my bad. I didn't mean to offend you.

 

[Deleted member]

The theme of the picture was all of those characters from different companies coming together. Two from Nintendo, Sega, and Capcom, and one from Square Enix and Bandai Namco.

You missed the point of the picture entirely.

To be fair it's a weird theme.
But yeah I did miss the point.

 

[Deleted member]

People need to remember "realizable characters" probably meant excluding stuff like Goku or Shrek.

 

[Michelaar]

There was never real proof of Bayonetta NOT winning the ballot so people who spout otherwise should really just shut up because they have no proof.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Those are integral parts of their gameplay too though, the game wouldn't work if they could jump at the player's will.

Still, the "X thing is integral to character but they can't work as a fighter because of it" argument is stupid. Smash characters aren't 1:1 of their original counterparts, they are adaptations so they can fit in a fighting game, something I believe Sakurai realised when he went back on his word about Villager.
"Should this character who, by all merits, should be in the game, be excluded simply because it wouldn't make sense within canon?"
Sonic can't swim in his games and that's a vital part of gameplay, yet he can swim in Smash; Bayonetta becomes nude when using some of her attacks in her games but she was changed to fit her into Smash; Kirby can infinitely jump in his games but he was given a limit to make him a balanced fighter; Pokemon can only have 4 moves at a time yet Pikachu has 5, Charizard has 6 and Greinja has 5/6.
I could go on and on but I think you get my point.

The Thing about Captain Toad, is that he is not just another non-jumping character.
He is *the* character who cannot Jump.
Consider this: Mario, aka Jumpman, has always had wide screen, scrolling, environments, from which he utilizes his ability to jump to physically get to his destination, even utilizing the same movement, the Jump, as his primary means of attacking enemies.

Captain Toad, antithesis of Jumpman, explores contained environments and overcomes his inability to jump by utilizing his brain to solve puzzles and reach his goal.

Not being able to jump is just part of gameplay to other characters. To Captain Toad, it is a founding principle to the play of his games, and maybe even the very most thing that makes him unique.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I was happy when Bayonetta got announced for Smash. Any Sega character is good for me.

But it is a bit of a stretch to put her in the 'iconic video game character' category. She's by far the least iconic 3rd party character to ever be in Smash.

Do you not know what a cult icon is? It's something that while big? Not everyone is going to know her. She has most certainly reached that status.

Icon does not always equal up to mega-watt. I'm not in any way saying she's as iconic as the other third parties or even Mario, Link and Pikachu who I'd consider to be Nintendo's big three.

Yet she has a quite sizable fanbase that is much larger than some of the Nintendo franchises not represented that people call for being represented, etc, etc.