Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Lyndis_]

I'd like to be the Devil's Advocate here, but I literally could not think of any real unique traits of Daisy other than that she's a tomboy...

Meanwhile Waluigi is mischievous, self pitying, somewhat greedy and incredibly spiteful. He's got a thing for Daisy and feels like he's owed everything, if he loses it's because everyone else is cheating.

I could honestly watch Waluigi and Wario doing stuff and messing with people as a whole show lol.

Even if Daisy does have these traits, they're much more hidden and gives the impression of her not really having much personality at all, which I consider in of itself an issue.

 

[Cyn]

1.) She's competitive. She hates to lose and pouts when she doesn't get her way.

2.) She's energetic. She does everything with gusto and puts her heart into her actions.

3.) She magically grows flowers.


....That wasn't even hard. I could do more.

These traits represent basically any character in a Mario competition game minus the flower growth.

Every Mario character is in “let down” mode when they loose a match, race, round, etc. The first two are way too generic.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Look I like Daisy.

But as far as the ''main" stars of the entire Mushroom Kingdom go.

She's one of the least developed if not the least developed individual.

****, even Toadette is starting to out rank her. TOADETTE.

 

[?????????????]

Where does she magically grow flowers? And is it a recurring theme for her? Not just one game.

The other two are just ''I'm a tomboy ya'll!"

In Mario Party games with individualized capsules, she makes flowers. In Mario Tennis games where there are special abilities, she makes flowers. In Mario Kart games with individualized items, she makes flowers. It's recurring.

I could just as easily say all of Waluigi's traits are just "I'm weird y'all!"

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, as much as I love Waluigi, I don't see much that differentiates him from Wario. Both are money-loving creeps who enjoy immature pranks and teasing their opponents.

At least Daisy has some qualities that makes her different from Peach. While Peach is more refined and calm, Daisy is fast-paced and bursting at the seams with energy.

 

[Lukingordex]

A lot of speculation have been going on regarding even the main theme for the game. They truly know how to make us excited for every little detail with a single trailer with very minimal information.

Spoiler: A fanmade main theme based on the trailer that i found interesting

https://youtu.be/TcQMHC689Zk

 

[?????????????]

I'm not going to argue that Daisy is as interesting as Waluigi.

I AM going to argue that Daisy is a unique character with her own personality that sets her apart from Mario or Peach.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Daisy is a dumb meme these days, the best she's getting is that palette swap and she doesn't even deserve that

Also I saw Banjo discussion. I honestly can't see Banjo happening. People only fondly remember two of his games, want to forget the third and outright forgot the GBA games he got. There's also Yooka Laylee's rather mixed reception meaning that people who want Banjo Threeie weren't all too pleased by that attempt (might mean jack but I feel like it says something) and compared to a Minecraft character or Master Chief, who would be excited for Banjo and not already be excited for the new Smash? Minecraft and Halo have different audiences that may not want to try Smash until they see those characters which appeal to them make it in

 

[Tree Gelbman]

In Mario Party games with individualized capsules, she makes flowers. In Mario Tennis games where there are special abilities, she makes flowers. In Mario Kart games with individualized items, she makes flowers. It's recurring.

I could just as easily say all of Waluigi's traits are just "I'm weird y'all!"

Half of the time this flowers stuff? It's an aesthic. She's not even growing them herself. There's just an aesthis because her name is Daisy.

You could, but you'd be really really really really wrong.

 

[papagenos]

daisy seems tomboyish spunky and competitive, its not much but as far as game characters go thats really all they need.

flowers and has something going on with luigi gives her a bit more things "thematically", even mario land stuff could be used to give her some flavor or again the sports games (though i think waluigi is the better fit to rep that). I dont think shes the most developed character but like...neither is link, she has enough personality to be a video game character you play as, honestly gaming characters should always sort of just fit a mold so the player can step in those shoes and not be too complex imo.

I'm not like really pushing for daisy, shes very take it or leave it to me, but since she makes a fine olimar/alph situation or pit/dark pit marth/lucina semi-clone I see no reason not to have her either. Her lacking a personality is maybe more just it not being that interesting but a competitive outgoing tomboy is about as much as brave confident hero or a reluctant scaredy cat or a dastardly greedy cheater, i see no issue with her personality making her less of a character than lots of smash staples.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Her thing with Luigi is even abandoned though. It's hard to have a thing with someone when they have a spin-off series of their own that you don't appear in or are mentioned in.

Nor when he appears in the mainline games and is getting flirted on subtly by Rosalina and other female characters.

That thing with Luigi is essentially nothing.

 

[Cosmic77]

Nor when he appears in the mainline games and is getting flirted on subtly by Rosalina and other female characters.

Rosalina is subtly flirting with other Mario characters? When did that ever happen?

 

[?????????????]

Hey, one idea I wanted to throw out;

At this point, the single Mario character I would want most is Paper Mario. I love the idea of a Mario that utilizes his hammer as his fighting style, and I think there's a lot of potential for interesting special moves with things like partners and paper abilities.

The main argument I see to this is that it's "just another Mario," which I think is valid; it doesn't necessarily "expand" the representation of characters the same way a totally new character would.

However...given the events of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, can we consider Paper Mario his own entity?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Rosalina is subtly flirting with other Mario characters? When did that ever happen?

It's actually more a long the lines of and I might be wrong. Luigi is shown smitten with her. I worded that horribly.

But for a guy who has a supposed girlfriend in Daisy. He spends no time with her and has interest in other females.

Daisy and Luigi aren't an item. They're like everything Daisy has. An afterthought.

 

[?????????????]

They're like everything Daisy has. An afterthought.

Jesus Christ, dude. Seriously. You can support a character without putting down others. Just because you're right doesn't mean everyone else has to be wrong.

 

[papagenos]

Hey, one idea I wanted to throw out;

At this point, the single Mario character I would want most is Paper Mario. I love the idea of a Mario that utilizes his hammer as his fighting style, and I think there's a lot of potential for interesting special moves with things like partners and paper abilities.

The main argument I see to this is that it's "just another Mario," which I think is valid; it doesn't necessarily "expand" the representation of characters the same way a totally new character would.

However...given the events of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, can we consider Paper Mario his own entity?

I like him but I'd rather have toad/waluigi/daisy feels like the full mario crew isnt here yet and before we go with paper mario I'd want them. The cast wont seem a bit empty without him, even though he'd be cool, where as not seeing toad or waluigi next to wario feels off. Also specifically with doctor mario it does feel weird adding another mario but maybe the doctor will be a costume this time.

also yes this is coming from a guy who wants geno haha.

 

[Lyndis_]

Jesus Christ, dude. Seriously. You can support a character without putting down others. Just because you're right doesn't mean everyone else has to be wrong.

What's wrong with stating your opinion on why you're against a character? It's not like they're attacking anyone that supports them.

I mean, it is pretty much a fact at this point that Daisy was an afterthought in the Tennis series, then she just kind of stayed without any real character development IMO.

Hey, one idea I wanted to throw out;

At this point, the single Mario character I would want most is Paper Mario. I love the idea of a Mario that utilizes his hammer as his fighting style, and I think there's a lot of potential for interesting special moves with things like partners and paper abilities.

The main argument I see to this is that it's "just another Mario," which I think is valid; it doesn't necessarily "expand" the representation of characters the same way a totally new character would.

However...given the events of Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, can we consider Paper Mario his own entity?

I wouldn't complain about Paper Mario at all, honestly... well, my main issue is that it'd almost definitely be completely based off of Sticker Star and Colour Splash. That'd honestly kill most of my interest in the character.

 

[777Laser]

Waluigi has had an assist trophy in the previous two games, I think he can easily be considered for a promotion to character slot in the roster. If there is a new mario rep, I think he's probably the best option.

 

[Cosmic77]

It's actually more a long the lines of and I might be wrong. Luigi is shown smitten with her. I worded that horribly.

But for a guy who has a supposed girlfriend in Daisy. He spends no time with her and has interest in other females.

Daisy and Luigi aren't an item. They're like everything Daisy has. An afterthought.

I'm not really in a position to argue much with Luigi being smitten with Rosalina as I haven't played many Mario spin-offs lately, but I do think there's still enough hints being pushed by Nintendo to suggest that Luigi and Daisy are supposed to be viewed as a possible couple.


If Daisy wins the tournament in Mario Power Tennis, Luigi will award her the trophy. Daisy zooms past Luigi on rollerblades and says, "Hi, sweetie!"

In MKWii, the Daisy Circuit has a statue of Luigi and Daisy dancing, as well as a statue of Baby Luigi and Baby Daisy dancing.

The description for Daisy's trophy in SSB4 is, "She may be the princess of Sarasaland, but she doesn't exactly have the poise you might expect from royalty. Daisy is more of a headstrong, active type. That's all part of her charm, though, and rumor has it Luigi is quite smitten with her."


Again, I have no idea if Luigi has shown signs of liking other characters, but Daisy still seems to be the clear frontrunner for his love and affection based off of these cues.

 

[?????????????]

I wouldn't complain about Paper Mario at all, honestly... well, my main issue that it'd almost definitely be completely based off of Sticker Star and Colour Splash. That'd honestly kill most of my interest in the character.

Yeah, I'd be worried about that too...if they added Paper Mario, I really hope they wouldn't do that.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Jesus Christ, dude. Seriously. You can support a character without putting down others. Just because you're right doesn't mean everyone else has to be wrong.

I didn't put down anyone. How is what I said putting down anyone in this forum?

Are you Princess Daisy yourself?

Because that's really the only thing you could speculate I'm putting down and I've already said I like her. I just don't believe she's given any attention and that sadly is true.

 

[Staarih]

Yeah, I'd be worried about that too...if they added Paper Mario, I really hope they wouldn't do that.

I dunno, Sakurai went his way with having specifically the older Pac-Man rather than the modern, so if he decided to have Paper Mario be based on TTYD for example, he probably would do just that. The question is if he actually would want that of course haha.

I personally wouldn’t mind a few nods to Sticker Star and/or Color Splash in some of Paper Mario’s moves (Color Splash was a good game tbh), as long as we have essential elements from the first PM games as well.

 

[papagenos]

I really wish we knew the ballot results...

 

[Cosmic77]

I dunno, Sakurai went his way with having specifically the older Pac-Man rather than the modern, so if he decided to have Paper Mario be based on TTYD for example, he probably would do just that. The question is if he actually would want that of course haha.

I personally wouldn’t mind a few nods to Sticker Star and/or Color Splash in some of Paper Mario’s moves (Color Splash was a good game tbh), as long as we have essential elements from the first PM games as well.

Spoiler: Requirement for Paper Mario

WE. NEED. THE. PARTNERS.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I really wish we knew the ballot results...

Same here.

Even if they only put in the "realizable characters" or the top 10 (or a combination of both), it'd at least be something.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Waluigi vs Daisy is a moot point anyways. I can't see either of them getting in.

It's really down to Captain Toad, Pauline and Geno imo.

Sakurai has now publicly stated his interest in getting Geno into Smash which is why we had the Mii costume.

Captain Toad and Pauline are the latest in a line of Mario break out characters. With one representing one of the most important faces in the Mario series in a way. And the other representing his beginnings in the Donkey Kong series.

Granted it's not totally over for anyone who might represent the sports spin-offs. I just believe those are the 3 who have the most chance this go around.

 

[?????????????]

I didn't put down anyone. How is what I said putting down anyone in this forum?

Are you Princess Daisy yourself?

Because that's really the only thing you could speculate I'm puttingdown and I've already said I like her. I just don't believe she's given any attention and that sadly is true.

I mean putting down the CHARACTER, which I know is weird, but I'm weird.

I just don't understand what you're arguing about. Are you telling me that Waluigi is more interesting than Daisy?
Because no duh.

That's like me saying Wario is more interesting than Mario. That's just a fact. He has more personality and actual abilities; Mario's got the personality of a cardboard box and most of his abilities come from items he utilizes.

Does that make Daisy a bad character choice? Not by a long shot. She still has as many appearances and abilities (I think more, actually) as Waluigi, and why does it have to be a competition in the first place? They could both be added.

I think Waluigi has an edge. I think Waluigi will be picked first. But that doesn't make Daisy a bad idea.

-----

Also, it IS frustrating when you specifically ask me for examples of personality and abilities, and when I give them, you just tell me how they're wrong. They don't have to be equal or better than Waluigi to be existent.

 

[SlickWylde]

I dunno, Sakurai went his way with having specifically the older Pac-Man rather than the modern, so if he decided to have Paper Mario be based on TTYD for example, he probably would do just that. The question is if he actually would want that of course haha.

I personally wouldn’t mind a few nods to Sticker Star and/or Color Splash in some of Paper Mario’s moves (Color Splash was a good game tbh), as long as we have essential elements from the first PM games as well.

I feel like the Pacman we got in Sm4sh was neither the "old" or "new". I think of the old one as being 2d, with no arms and legs. If anything, it's closer to the new. I'm actually not sure what he based the model off. Was there promotional pictures he based it off?

 

[?????????????]

I feel like the Pacman we got in Sm4sh was neither the "old" or "new". I think of the old one as being 2d, with no arms and legs. If anything, it's closer to the new. I'm actually not sure what he based the model off. Was there promotional pictures he based it off?

I assumed it was based off of Pac-Land Pac-Man.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Also, it IS frustrating when you specifically ask me for examples of personality and abilities, and when I give them, you just tell me how they're wrong. They don't have to be equal or better than Waluigi to be existent.

I point out the flaws in what you said. Nothing more that's nothing personal against you.

Because as someone else said the first two aren't even just exclusive to her tomboy personality. They're part of the sports series in general for everyone.

And the flowers thing really does melt down to aesthetic choice based on her name 8 times out of 10.

 

[?????????????]

I point out the flaws in what you said. Nothing more that's nothing personal against you.

Because as someone else said the first two aren't even just exclusive to her tomboy personality. They're part of the sports series in general for everyone.

And the flowers thing really does melt down to aesthetic choice based on her name 8 times out of 10.

Oh. Well, then my problem is that I don't see those as "flaws."

I think it's pretty obvious that Daisy's competitive nature and energetic personality are more characterized to her than anyone else in the sports games, especially since she also displays them in Mario Party and Fortune Street.

And Daisy literally spawns flowers out of the ether, so I didn't see how that was "just aesthetic."

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I personally think the Mario franchise already has a lot of characters, so the idea of a newcomer is something I'm not really fond of (and that comes from someone who grew up playing Mario games lol)

With that said, Paper Mario would be the exception. He'd be so different from the other Mario characters I wouldn't even mind him being another one.

I feel like the Pacman we got in Sm4sh was neither the "old" or "new". I think of the old one as being 2d, with no arms and legs. If anything, it's closer to the new. I'm actually not sure what he based the model off. Was there promotional pictures he based it off?

Sakurai himself specifically stated he would've thought of cutting Pac-Man if he wasn't allowed to use the classic design we saw all the time in illustrations.

Sakurai: I decided to use the old-school Pac-Man design you often see in illustrations—a sphere with arms and legs stuck on—and not the more recent white-eyed look.

Sakurai: Pac-man’s design was updated in a 2013 CGI cartoon titled, “Pac-man and the Ghostly Adventures.” This new design has been used in a variety of products. But in the end I felt that his old-school design was better, and used that in the design plan. If that was rejected, I thought about dropping Pac-man altogether.

Source: http://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/26/800/

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Daisy's saving grace is Super Mario Land's Superball and its possible shenanigans, like combining them with flower power to create gardens everytime the balls touch a surface, using Crystal Smash or the Moe-Eye like enemies to bounce them around, using various jumps and lunges to catch the ball and throwing them again, which could make them gain an effect like paralysis.

For neutral moves, it doesn't have to be "sports equipment" when soccer kicks can give her a special flair without having to resort to gimmicks

 

[papagenos]

Waluigi vs Daisy is a moot point anyways. I can't see either of them getting in.

It's really down to Captain Toad, Pauline and Geno imo.

Sakurai has now publicly stated his interest in getting Geno into Smash which is why we had the Mii costume.

Captain Toad and Pauline are the latest in a line of Mario break out characters. With one representing one of the most important faces in the Mario series in a way. And the other representing his beginnings in the Donkey Kong series.

Granted it's not totally over for anyone who might represent the sports spin-offs. I just believe those are the 3 who have the most chance this go around.

The only thing with Geno is he does kind of count as a 3rd party character and less of a mario character, at least given how his mii costume showed up when cloud did I assume he would be a second square rep and thats how sakurai would "count" him.

I can totally see getting captain toad as a mario rep, daisy as a clone or costume, waluigi as a mario sports rep and upgraded assist trophy, and geno as one of our third party characters.

I find pauline hard to make more than an assist trophy only because I see a limited moveset potential without giving her cappy stuff to basically rep odyssey as a whole but then that doesn't really feel like her character, and I know sakurai is all about characters retaining their style and what they represent in their games.

Paper marios up in the air for me, as i assume he was high on the ballot, but like i said before I think 3 marios is a lot, if docs a cotume now it could work but I wouldn't want him in before toad specifically as the mario lineup feels slightly empty still and if paper mario shows up but these others dont it will still feel a bit lacking key players. obviously he can represent his own game series and have a fantastic moveset but if anything I think hes a fantastic DLC choice after the initial roster finishes up the core mario characters this time around.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Paper marios up in the air for me, as i assume he was high on the ballot, but like i said before I think 3 marios is a lot

True, but Paper Mario would play so differently that the name would basically be one of the very few things they share.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I'm surprised to see so many people not care about 8-Player Smash here. I thought that mode was an excellent addition. Maybe it's because I'm the only one here with more than 3 friends




Just kidding. I have no friends.

 

[Lyndis_]

If we're assuming (just hypothetically) that Mario in Smash 5 would be getting a bit of a redesign around some of his Odyssey moves, then Dr. Mario would be even more seperate to Mario than he already is in 4.

Then, with a Paper Mario not even being a little bit alike the only thing they'd really share is the name... I have no issue with that. I mean, we've already had 3 Links in the series, even if one was just to replace another.

I'm surprised to see so many people not care about 8-Player Smash here. I thought that mode was an excellent addition. Maybe it's because I'm the only one here with more than 3 friends




Just kidding. I have no friends.

Same feeling here. It's the main thing I felt Smash 4 brought to the table, a feature I couldn't really 'live without' in a future title. Just one of those things you have no idea how much you needed it till you have it, lol.

I imagine it's also a very valuable feature to Nintendo, being able to advertise their game as having up to 8-Players (which I imagine they will advertise at every opportunity.) It's also just so useful for when you have 5 people and don't have to break out the "let's take turns!" thing when you can all just play together.

 

[Deleted member]

Waluigi is the only Mario newcomer I care about tbh.
I used to want Captain Toad but now I'm just okay with him, because I honestly don't find him too interesting.
I have yet to play any Paper Mario game so I can't really say much about that.
Daisy is my least wanted character (sorry WeirdChill).
Geno just doesn't make sense and his gimmick is something that I think a Rhythm Heaven character should have.
Any other character I'm indifferent to, unless you count Mario sub series but that's for another day.

 

[papagenos]

True, but Paper Mario would play so differently that the name would basically be one of the very few things they share.

oh so true, and trust me I kind of want him, I guess its just when i look at the full roster and see link and toon link I wonder if midna or skull kid or someone would be better than two links from simply an aesthetic point of view and i feel paper mario would do the same when i see two mario characters.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Also consider that if Smash Switch is indeed a Splatoon 2-esque "port gone wrong", Sakurai might not have planned the roster in advance which could mean the return of Toon Link/Wolf-like semi-clones, which would give Daisy an advantage over Waluigi (even though she probably would not get a spin-off moveset that way, more likely would be a floatless but faster, better, stronger, harder Peach)