Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[AwesomeAussie27]

Nah, it was "Sinnoh bias" for this one.

So it's always about the Gen Fourers isn't it?

 

[Arcadenik]

Exactly. And not to mention Cloud's Advent Children outfit is proof that they can add non-canon material from films in Smash.

This. And people got up in arms when I suggested Meowth could use something from the anime like a Wobbuffet counter.

Nah, it was "Sinnoh bias" for this one.

Oh but that's a bit silly. Just because there's 6 Sinnoh Pokemon and 5 Kanto Pokemon (not counting a second Pikachu and a second Mewtwo) doesn't mean it is biased toward Sinnoh Pokemon. If anything, it's biased toward Pikachu and Mewtwo.

The same people who complain about Sinnoh bias would be complaining about Hoenn bias or Johto bias or even Unova bias or Kalos bias if they had more.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Alright I'm just gonna tackle this one head on cause I've noticed that you have been 100% against everything Fire Emblem in every post of yours that mentions them.

Regardless of whether slots exist or not, I'm sick of all the Fire Emblem characters and would much rather see other characters in their place, even if it means there are fewer characters overall.

Why is taking out characters for the sake of taking out characters ever a good thing? Sure Marth, Lucina, and Roy are very similar but what exactly would we gain from having any of them cut? Whether you like them or not they're there and there's no solid reason any or them should be cut. Roy and Lucina are hugely popular characters. If anything their characters should be reworked and expanded upon.

I have zero interest in Fire Emblem and don't see why people who aren't interested in the series have to put up with six characters from it. Like Fire Emblem is as important as Mario or Pokemon. It absolutely is not. It makes sense to me why those franchises have as many reps as they do, but I can't see why FE has just as many. I really hope FE is greatly culled in the next game.

Ok, that's totally cool if you have absolutely no interest in the series. That's totally fine. But there are literally millions of other people who adore the series and its characters. Here's the thing as of right now, due to Corrin and Roy being DLC which admittedly will probably change in the future, you don't have to 'put up' with six of them. Only 4. It's your choice whether to purchase Corrin and Roy as separate DLC or not. No one forced you to pay that money. Even without that, Roy and in turn Lucas were just basic extra characters that came along with Ryu. Looking at those two and comparing them to Ryu you can tell which of the three got the most development time.

I don't really want to put you in the line of fire as this is a problem with this community as a whole but I've noticed that you would rather see characters that you don't like gone instead of simply reworked. I don't really like Palutena and how she is at the moment but I would never want her gone. Same with Dark Pit and to an extent Lucina. Here's the thing as a huge fan of Mewtwo, Wolf, and Ice Climbers and a huge, HUGE fan of Snake I know the pain of losing a beloved character, more times than I probably reasonably should. The amount of times where I just had to face the facts and admit that my character just isn't going to happen despite no good reason for not coming back is actually painful. For as amazing and huge as Sm4sh is I can't go into that CSS without feeling like there's something missing.

tl;dr Just because a character is causing a franchise to be 'over-represented' or is 'pointless' doesn't mean the character should be outright cut. Cuts suck. Somebody somewhere loves that character in spite of what someone else thinks. And from a development standpoint it's usually pointless when you can port over a model and expand upon it from there. It's really a shame when you go around and see 'this character should be cut' because, no, they shouldn't they are there and so they deserve to be there and should always be there despite their similarities to other character or 'over-representation'.

 

[The Black mage]

So, here's a thought... how powerful is the Nintendo Switch, anyways?

The whole reason the Ice climbers were not included with 3DS-Wii U was due to the 3DS not being powerful enough to process the Ice climbers... or so I heard, correct me if I am wrong.

Maybe the dev team might be able to correct this with their inclusion in the switch version... maybe...

Then again, having 16 or so Ice Climbers on the field might be a mess to keep up with, so it might not work out too well...

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

This. And people got up in arms when I suggested Meowth could use something from the anime like a Wobbuffet counter.

Cloud wearing an outfit he himself has worn is entirely different from the representation of all Meowth as a species all inexplicably using Wobbuffet as a tool.

You're comparing apples to oranges here, budd.

 

[Arcadenik]

Cloud wearing an outfit he himself has worn is entirely different from the representation of all Meowth as a species all inexplicably using Wobbuffet as a tool.

You're comparing apples to oranges here, budd.

The games say Meowth loves round shiny things. A Pokeball is round and shiny. Maybe Meowth brought that round shiny thing with him to the battlefield.

Then again, having 16 or so Ice Climbers on the field might be a mess to keep up with, so it might not work out too well..

Maybe they need to go the Duck Hunt route with Ice Climbers... make them stay together at all times. No more getting separated like in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Nah, it was "Sinnoh bias" for this one.

Yes, how dare we foreshadow that we might get a Gen 4 remake soon?

What better way than to give us a healthy amount of good mons from there.

 

[Opossum]

The games say Meowth loves round shiny things. A Pokeball is round and shiny. Maybe Meowth brought that round shiny thing with him to the battlefield.



Maybe they need to go the Duck Hunt route with Ice Climbers... make them stay together at all times. No more getting separated like in Melee and Brawl.

If you want Meowth to have a Counter type of move, why not just use Fake-Out? At least that's something Meowth is known for using,

 

[Kirbeh]

Costumes that will unfortunately never happen.

Spoiler

- Super Mario Sunshine: Shirt & Shades
- Super Mario Maker: Builder/Maker Mario
- Mario Strikers: Soccer Uniform
- Yoshi's Cookie: Chef/Baker

- Super Mario 64 DS: Tuxedo (mini games)
- Dr. Luigi (Because I doubt people would welcome him as a clone character.)
- Mario Strikers: Soccer Uniform

- Mario Kart - Biker Suit
- Mario Tennis - Sporty Dress
- Mario Strikers - Soccer Uniform
- various Mario sports titles: Sporty Clothes
- Mario & Sonic: Gymnastics Leotard

- Mario Kart - Biker Suit
- Mario Tennis - Sporty Dress
- Mario & Sonic: Gymnastics Leotard

- New Super Mario Bros., etc.: Dry Bowser
- Super Mario Odyssey: "Dapper" Bowser


-Alt colors, even if its just one each to raise their costume count up to 16. Bowser Jr. for example could have his Shadow Mario bandana as an alt in place of the fang one.

- A Link to the Past: With a pink haired recolor of course.
- Ocarina of Time
- Twilight Princess: Ordon
- Skyward Sword: Skyloft
- Breath of the Wild: Champion's Tunic, Hylian Tunic, Gerudo
- Hyrule Warriors: Default, Trainee

- A Link to the Past: Casual Dress, Royal Dress
- Ocarina of Time
- Skyward Sword: Skyloft, White Dress
- Breath of the Wild: Champion's Tunic, Royal Dress
- Hyrule Warriors

- A Link to the Past: An Agahnim costume, and to clarify, I do mean a costume, not an alt "character". And if not that a recolor based on it would be nice.
- Ocarina of Time
- Hyrule Warriors

- The Wind Waker: Outset Island
- Spirit Tracks: Royal Engineer
- Triforce Heroes: Tingle Tights, Linebeck's Uniform, Cursed Tights

- Ocarina of Time
- Hyrule Warriors

- Metroid: Power Suit
- Super Metroid: Power Suit
- Metroid Prime 2: Light Suit, Dark Suit
- Metroid Prime 3: PED Suit
- Metroid Fusion: Fusion Suit

- Metroid: Ending
- Metroid II: Ending
- Super Metroid: Ending
- Other M: Civilian

- Detective Pikachu: Detective Hat
- Mystery Dungeon series: Scarf
- Pokken Tournament: Player 2 "pants"
- Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire: Pikachu Libre

- Shiny

- Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back: Armor

- Shiny

- Shiny

- F-Zero
- F-Zero X: Super Falcon

- Pajamas

- Pig Mask Commander, Pajamas

- Butterfly concept art

- Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light
- Mystery of the Emblem

- The Binding Blade: concept art
- Awakening: Mercenary

- Path of Radiance: Ranger, Lord
- Radiant Dawn: Vangaurd, Lord
- Awakening: Hero

- Awakening: Grandmaster

- Awakening: "Marth", Great Lord, Summer Scramble
- Heroes: Spring Festival

- Fates: Hoshido Noble, Nohr Noble

- More colors for both costumes. Why'd we get less than what we had in Brawl if the limit was increased?

- Additional variations like the two used in Mario Kart 8.

- More training outfit colors for both normal Mac and Wireframe.

- More swimsuit colors plz.

Spoiler

This one is a joke obviously. This version of Pac-Man is terrifying and I don't want to see it used ever again... Though maybe just a recolor where regular Pac gets his shoes and gloves changed.

- I'd be fine with just some additional colors to increase the amount of Robot Masters referenced.

- Street Fighter Alpha series
- Street Fighter V: Battle Costume aka "Beard Ryu"

- Final Fantasy VII: SOLDIER Uniform, "Miss" Cloud
- Crisis Core: SOLDIER Infantry

- Mushroom Kingdom Princess/Sarasaland Princess, maybe Umbran Gekka and Schoolgirl since they already have recolors to work with.
- "Old" (The flashback sequence Bayo with the hood and mask)

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe they need to go the Duck Hunt route with Ice Climbers... make them stay together at all times. No more getting separated like in Melee and Brawl.

So basically take away what made the two unique for the sake of including them in some way?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Costumes that will unfortunately never happen.

Spoiler

- Super Mario Sunshine: Shirt & Shades
- Super Mario Maker: Builder/Maker Mario
- Mario Strikers: Soccer Uniform
- Yoshi's Cookie: Chef/Baker

- Super Mario 64 DS: Tuxedo (mini games)
- Dr. Luigi (Because I doubt people would welcome him as a clone character.)
- Mario Strikers: Soccer Uniform

- Mario Kart - Biker Suit
- Mario Tennis - Sporty Dress
- Mario Strikers - Soccer Uniform
- various Mario sports titles: Sporty Clothes
- Mario & Sonic: Gymnastics Leotard

- Mario Kart - Biker Suit
- Mario Tennis - Sporty Dress
- Mario & Sonic: Gymnastics Leotard

- New Super Mario Bros., etc.: Dry Bowser
- Super Mario Odyssey: "Dapper" Bowser


-Alt colors, even if its just one each to raise their costume count up to 16. Bowser Jr. for example could have his Shadow Mario bandana as an alt in place of the fang one.

- A Link to the Past: With a pink haired recolor of course.
- Ocarina of Time
- Twilight Princess: Ordon
- Skyward Sword: Skyloft
- Breath of the Wild: Champion's Tunic, Hylian Tunic, Gerudo
- Hyrule Warriors: Default, Trainee

- A Link to the Past: Casual Dress, Royal Dress
- Ocarina of Time
- Skyward Sword: Skyloft, White Dress
- Breath of the Wild: Champion's Tunic, Royal Dress
- Hyrule Warriors

- A Link to the Past: An Agahnim costume, and to clarify, I do mean a costume, not an alt "character". And if not that a recolor based on it would be nice.
- Ocarina of Time
- Hyrule Warriors

- The Wind Waker: Outset Island
- Spirit Tracks: Royal Engineer
- Triforce Heroes: Tingle Tights, Linebeck's Uniform, Cursed Tights

- Ocarina of Time
- Hyrule Warriors

- Metroid: Power Suit
- Super Metroid: Power Suit
- Metroid Prime 2: Light Suit, Dark Suit
- Metroid Prime 3: PED Suit
- Metroid Fusion: Fusion Suit

- Metroid: Ending
- Metroid II: Ending
- Super Metroid: Ending
- Other M: Civilian

- Detective Pikachu: Detective Hat
- Mystery Dungeon series: Scarf
- Pokken Tournament: Player 2 "pants"
- Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire: Pikachu Libre

- Shiny

- Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back: Armor

- Shiny

- Shiny

- F-Zero
- F-Zero X: Super Falcon

- Pajamas

- Pig Mask Commander, Pajamas

- Butterfly concept art

- Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light
- Mystery of the Emblem

- The Binding Blade: concept art
- Awakening: Mercenary

- Path of Radiance: Ranger, Lord
- Radiant Dawn: Vangaurd, Lord
- Awakening: Hero

- Awakening: Grandmaster

- Awakening: "Marth", Great Lord, Summer Scramble
- Heroes: Spring Festival

- Fates: Hoshido Noble, Nohr Noble

- More colors for both costumes. Why'd we get less than what we had in Brawl if the limit was increased?

- Additional variations like the two used in Mario Kart 8.

- More training outfit colors for both normal Mac and Wireframe.

- More swimsuit colors plz.

Spoiler

This one is a joke obviously. This version of Pac-Man is terrifying and I don't want to see it used ever again... Though maybe just a recolor where regular Pac gets his shoes and gloves changed.

- I'd be fine with just some additional colors to increase the amount of Robot Masters referenced.

- Street Fighter Alpha series
- Street Fighter V: Battle Costume aka "Beard Ryu"

- Final Fantasy VII: SOLDIER Uniform, "Miss" Cloud
- Crisis Core: SOLDIER Infantry

- Mushroom Kingdom Princess/Sarasaland Princess, maybe Umbran Gekka and Schoolgirl since they already have recolors to work with.
- "Old" (The flashback sequence Bayo with the hood and mask)

No Miss Cloud will always be sad.

And what are you talking about Louis? Pac-Man II Pac-Man is charismatic and he knows it.

And I like how you forgot about Princess Luigi.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I could just as easily say your aversion to Fire Emblem is a form of bias. The point is it doesn't matter.

I don't just expect you to say that, in fact, I fully expect that that's what you actually believe. Otherwise you wouldn't have said it in the first place. Of course you say it doesn't matter since you're the one being accused of demonstrating the heavy bias in the first place.

The Zelda franchise doesn't have a cyclical cast, so unless you want a roster full of the few recurring characters and a ton of one-offs, it doesn't need a ton of characters for the sake of having them. I think there's a reason every one we've gotten so far is a form of a Triforce bearer. With the cast we have now, you already have all of the incredibly important Zelda characters. Fire Emblem, like Pokémon, doesn't keep the same cast like Zelda does, and as such will never have that completeness if it keeps making games.

Does Fire Emblem have a "cyclical cast"? As far as I know all the games are independent stories that take place eras apart and have entirely new characters each time, so everything you're saying seems to apply doubly to Fire Emblem. Zelda has recurring characters, Fire Emblem has "one-offs" every single time. And just like you said, it doesn't need a ton of characters for the sake of having them. Lucina, Roy and Ike are just there for "the sake of having them", the first two were just going to be costumes for Marth until they made a last minute decision to give them balance considerations, and Ike hasn't been in a game since 2007. Unless he appears in a new game his relevancy is long gone. I don't see how you can lambast the idea of Zelda having one-off characters when literally every FE character is a one-off character.

Alright I'm just gonna tackle this one head on cause I've noticed that you have been 100% against everything Fire Emblem in every post of yours that mentions them.
Why is taking out characters for the sake of taking out characters ever a good thing? Sure Marth, Lucina, and Roy are very similar but what exactly would we gain from having any of them cut? Whether you like them or not they're there and there's no solid reason any or them should be cut. Roy and Lucina are hugely popular characters. If anything their characters should be reworked and expanded upon.

If they don't cut them then they should at least relegate them to alternate costumes for Marth because their gameplay is almost exactly the same. It'd be like if each of the Koopalings had ever so slight changes to Bowser Jr.'s core moveset. What's the point? It's just padding.

Ok, that's totally cool if you have absolutely no interest in the series. That's totally fine. But there are literally millions of other people who adore the series and its characters. Here's the thing as of right now, due to Corrin and Roy being DLC which admittedly will probably change in the future, you don't have to 'put up' with six of them. Only 4. It's your choice whether to purchase Corrin and Roy as separate DLC or not. No one forced you to pay that money. Even without that, Roy and in turn Lucas were just basic extra characters that came along with Ryu. Looking at those two and comparing them to Ryu you can tell which of the three got the most development time.

I don't think you have a leg to stand on with the "literally millions of fans" argument. Zelda has many more fans and is a much bigger franchise and it has less characters than FE does. How does your argument make sense?

As for the rest of what you said here, I mostly agree, I imagine Roy and Corrin will automatically be in the game if it gets ported to Switch. Personally I purchased all the DLC, not merely for myself but also for the people I play with offline. I admit it was my choice yes, but the fact remains that there are still too many FE characters and there are other franchises I'd like to see. Spending time developing FE characters gets in the way of that happening.

I don't really want to put you in the line of fire as this is a problem with this community as a whole but I've noticed that you would rather see characters that you don't like gone instead of simply reworked. I don't really like Palutena and how she is at the moment but I would never want her gone. Same with Dark Pit and to an extent Lucina. Here's the thing as a huge fan of Mewtwo, Wolf, and Ice Climbers and a huge, HUGE fan of Snake I know the pain of losing a beloved character, more times than I probably reasonably should. The amount of times where I just had to face the facts and admit that my character just isn't going to happen despite no good reason for not coming back is actually painful. For as amazing and huge as Sm4sh is I can't go into that CSS without feeling like there's something missing.

It's not so much that I "want them gone" but more the fact that I accept that trimming of the roster has to happen with each iteration of the game, either because they have to redo everything from scratch or because too many characters will make the game unbalanced. And with that said I nominate the FE characters for the cutting room first, because there are too many of them.

It is sadly an unfeasible fantasy to keep all the characters you want, add new ones on top of that and still have a balanced game. Ideally yes, if they could pull it off, let's have a hundred characters in Smash and keep all the Fire Emblems and even add a few new ones. But you know as well as I do that this isn't happening and trimming of the roster needs to happen for the sake of balance and development of new characters. Cuts do suck but they are an inevitable aspect of designing sequels to fighting games unless you're okay with it being a broken crazy mess like Marvel. So that's why I nominate the FE characters, because they are over-represented for a series that isn't nearly as important as Mario, Zelda or Pokemon.

 

[Kirbeh]

No Miss Cloud will always be sad.

And what are you talking about Louis? Pac-Man II Pac-Man is charismatic and he knows it.

And I like how you forgot about Princess Luigi.

Louis? I assume that's a reference I'm missing. And I did actually forget that Princess Luigi was a thing, otherwise I would've included Rookie Bowser as well.

 

[Deleted member]

My one and only contribution to this FE discussion:

= The main character of the very first FE entry
= The main character of the first handheld FE entry
= The main character of the first FE entry using 3D graphics
= One of the main characters of the FE entry known to have revived the franchise
= The second one of the main characters of the FE entry known to have revived the franchise
= The main character of the first FE entry splitted between different versions

Do what you want with it.

 

[Arcadenik]

If you want Meowth to have a Counter type of move, why not just use Fake-Out? At least that's something Meowth is known for using,

I have some ideas for Fake Out. It could be used to play mind games since Meowth could do different things.

Down+B - Meowth flip jumps and whips the opponent with his tail (Iron Tail)

Down+B then pressing a button - Meowth flip jumps and then pounces at the opponent Cat Mario style (Feint Attack)

Down+B as a counter - Meowth flip jumps over the opponent and throws coins at the opponent's back (Payback)

 

[Schnee117]

I don't just expect you to say that, in fact, I fully expect that that's what you actually believe. Otherwise you wouldn't have said it in the first place. Of course you say it doesn't matter since you're the one being accused of demonstrating the heavy bias in the first place.

That's completely irrelevant. There's no point in continuing to attack someone just because their avatar so happens to be a Fire Emblem character and they're expressing a viewpoint in favour of Fire Emblem.
If anything it just gives him grounds to ignore you.

 

[Kirbeh]

I have some ideas for Fake Out. It could be used to play mind games since Meowth could do different things.

Down+B - Meowth flip jumps and whips the opponent with his tail (Iron Tail)

Down+B then pressing a button - Meowth flip jumps and then pounces at the opponent Cat Mario style (Feint Attack)

Down+B as a counter - Meowth flip jumps over the opponent and throws coins at the opponent's back (Payback)

Those are some nice ideas, ( I especially like the double meaning you worked in for Payback ), but those feel like their own ideas as opposed to being Fake Out. I get that it's supposed to be multiple moves in one, but they'd work fine on their own.

 

[Arcadenik]

So basically take away what made the two unique for the sake of including them in some way?

They could still be unique even if they are together at all times. They could still hit twice... and throw ice twice... and blow snow in both ways... I thought people said characters should be unique but also balanced and not a programming nightmare.

 

[PsychoJosh]

That's completely irrelevant. There's no point in continuing to attack someone just because their avatar so happens to be a Fire Emblem character and they're expressing a viewpoint in favour of Fire Emblem.
If anything it just gives him grounds to ignore you.

What he said was a backhanded attack at me. If he ignores me, that's fine.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have some ideas for Fake Out. It could be used to play mind games since Meowth could do different things.

Down+B - Meowth flip jumps and whips the opponent with his tail (Iron Tail)

Down+B then pressing a button - Meowth flip jumps and then pounces at the opponent Cat Mario style (Feint Attack)

Down+B as a counter - Meowth flip jumps over the opponent and throws coins at the opponent's back (Payback)

Couldn't these also work as custom moves, assuming it stays in the next Smash.

Nice ideas, though.

 

[Arcadenik]

Those are some nice ideas, ( I especially like the double meaning you worked in for Payback ), but those feel like their own ideas as opposed to being Fake Out. I get that it's supposed to be multiple moves in one, but they'd work fine on their own.

Yeah, that's the idea behind Fake Out. You don't know what Meowth is going to do when he flip jumps. Is he going to hit you with Iron Tail or pounce you with Feint Attack or counter you with Payback? He could psych you out... fake you out!

 

[Kirbeh]

They could still be unique even if they are together at all times. They could still hit twice... and throw ice twice... and blow snow in both ways... I thought people said characters should be unique but also balanced and not a programming nightmare.

I think they could easily work around the specials as you've noted, but it's their ability to be separated and have Nana act independently that makes them unique.

The only compromise I can think of is making Nana's AI simpler, and have her follow up attacks require a second press like Link's F-Smash. Perhaps allow her to be knocked away as well, but she stays where she lands until Popo runs up and regroups with her. Perhaps have an onstage version of Belay where Popo pulls Nana in and she hits enemies on her way back?

Though in the end that'd probably make them too similar to Rosa/Luma and wouldn't be what Ice Climber players want out of the character. It's a pretty difficult call to make really. Either change them and hope fans are happy/or are willing to adapt to such a drastic overhaul of their playstyle, or continue to leave them out.

Kind of a lose/lose situation for the devs. Both options will disappoint many Ice Climber fans. Though I suppose every decision they make is lose/lose given the way fans react all the time. Can't please everyone.

 

[Deleted member]

They could still be unique even if they are together at all times. They could still hit twice... and throw ice twice... and blow snow in both ways... I thought people said characters should be unique but also balanced and not a programming nightmare.

You don't get it.
What makes the Ice Climbers the Ice Climbers isn't things like "hitting twice", "throwing ice twice", and "blowing snow both ways".

What makes them who they are is the whole "two fighters at the same time" concept with the second Climber being an AI that can act either in accordance with you or independently if the situation calls for it. The theme of being stronger when working together and weaker when by yourself.

Making them take after Duck Hunt and be a single unit takes away from that. Takes away why they were even added in Smash to begin with in favor of some other random Famicom one-"hit" blunder.

 

[Arcadenik]

it's their ability to be separated and have Nana act independently that makes them unique.

That's my one complaint with Ice Climbers. They kept getting separated in Melee and Brawl. I liked them better when they were together. They were better when they were together.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah, that's the idea behind Fake Out. You don't know what Meowth is going to do when he flip jumps. Is he going to hit you with Iron Tail or pounce you with Feint Attack or counter you with Payback? He could psych you out... fake you out!

Fair enough, I suppose that is good use of creative liberty while still representing the move. I've just always been fond of the idea of having Fake Out be a weak, close quarters, sneak attack like in the games. Then while the opponent is in hitstun (equivalent to flinching in Pokemon in this case), Meowth can counterattack as it pleases with an attack of the players choice. Similar to your setup, but with the ablility to use any of Meowth's other attacks, instead of just 3 options that are mapped to the same Special.

Basically, to mirror Fake Out, it'd go something like this.

Say fires a charge shot, but is still pretty close to Meowth. Meowth uses Fake Out, bypassing the Charge Shot and closing the short distance. If the attack lands, it deals very little damage, but gives Meowth an opportunity to punish. The attack itself is extremely weak and doesn't travel very far to keep it balanced. And if poorly timed, you'll take the hit full force.

That's my one complaint with Ice Climbers. They kept getting separated in Melee and Brawl. I liked them better when they were together. They were better when they were together.

That was part of the appeal to their character though. It's not for everyone sure, but what character is? It had its disadvantages, in the same way it had great advantages if you were good at keeping them together to work in tandemGoldenYuiitusi and Zebei summed it up pretty well. That was the risk/reward of playing Ice Climbers. It's what set them apart from the rest of the cast and made them interesting to play.

 

[A Distant Demon]

That's my one complaint with Ice Climbers. They kept getting separated in Melee and Brawl. I liked them better when they were together. They were better when they were together.

Them being able to be seperated was 99% of the reason hey were interesting. Otherwise it's just 2 characters just throwing out the same hitbox twice. The fact that they can be sperated, and all of the variables that are added because of it turns them from extremely boring characters to very interesting ones.

plus imagine melee ICs wobbling without needing to worry about being separated lol

 

[Luminario]

You don't get it.
What makes the Ice Climbers the Ice Climbers isn't things like "hitting twice", "throwing ice twice", and "blowing snow both ways".

What makes them who they are is the whole "two fighters at the same time" concept with the second Climber being an AI that can act either in accordance with you or independently if the situation calls for it. The theme of being stronger when working together and weaker when by yourself.

Making them take after Duck Hunt and be a single unit takes away from that. Takes away why they were even added in Smash to begin with in favor of some other random Famicom one-"hit" blunder.

It might be necessary to get ICs in the game again though. I'd say it should definitely be considered by the devs but only implemented out of necessity. All they'd have to do is attach a rope to them (you know like the same rope they used with up B) and change how up B works, remove Nana's hurtbox so it's only Popo that can get hit away with Nana following close behind, and have a split second lag between everything they do to remove the AI. It's certainly not ideal, but it could be between that or missing out on ICs for another game.

 

[Arcadenik]

You don't get it.
What makes the Ice Climbers the Ice Climbers isn't things like "hitting twice", "throwing ice twice", and "blowing snow both ways".

What makes them who they are is the whole "two fighters at the same time" concept with the second Climber being an AI that can act either in accordance with you or independently if the situation calls for it. The theme of being stronger when working together and weaker when by yourself.

Making them take after Duck Hunt and be a single unit takes away from that. Takes away why they were even added in Smash to begin with in favor of some other random Famicom one-"hit" blunder.

Okay. So that's what makes them unique... so what's your solution for keeping them the way without breaking the game when we play with 8 Ice Climbers online?

I really like Ice Climbers so much that I was willing to just make them stay together at all times in order to keep them in the game. *sigh*

 

[Kirbeh]

I know this is a huge stretch, but maybe force SoPo during 8 player Smash. It'd include some buffs to make him better able to stand on his own and add a hook or something to Belay so he can actually recover.

Not the most elegant/consistent way of doing things, but it'd leave the Ice Climbers intact for classic 4 way multiplayer, and one-on-one competitive matches.

The hook could perhaps even be a general change, with it taking over the original Belays function. So:
-Belay w/Nana deals damage, and has more reach thanks to Nana.
-Belay w/o Nana, only grabs the ledge and has less reach.

 

[Yellowlord]

Regarding the Ice Climbers, I really do hope the developers and Nintendo know how much we want them back in the game. Many people miss them heavily (even I do despite not having played them that much back then) and the thought of having them fight against characters that were introduced to Smash 4 such as Cloud and Ryu gets me hyped up. As is, Smash 4 is the only game where you could theoretically have that kind of scenario if they implement the Ice Climbers again. Either way, I'd also make a bet that we will be guaranteed to see them back on a theoretical Smash 4 port for the Switch.

 

[Deleted member]

You're not going to like me for this, but I say either they come back like they were intended or they don't come back at all.
I don't like the idea of doing drastic changes to a character's core gameplay design (especially if it's one that serves as the only "worth" the character truly had) for the sole purpose of merely having them show up to appease people.

Okay. So that's what makes them unique... so what's your solution for keeping them the way without breaking the game when we play with 8 Ice Climbers online?

That's assuming 8-Player Smash will ever be available online.

 

[Opossum]

What he said was a backhanded attack at me. If he ignores me, that's fine.

Backhanded attack? Seriously? That was in no way an attack.

I don't just expect you to say that, in fact, I fully expect that that's what you actually believe. Otherwise you wouldn't have said it in the first place. Of course you say it doesn't matter since you're the one being accused of demonstrating the heavy bias in the first place.



Does Fire Emblem have a "cyclical cast"? As far as I know all the games are independent stories that take place eras apart and have entirely new characters each time, so everything you're saying seems to apply doubly to Fire Emblem. Zelda has recurring characters, Fire Emblem has "one-offs" every single time. And just like you said, it doesn't need a ton of characters for the sake of having them. Lucina, Roy and Ike are just there for "the sake of having them", the first two were just going to be costumes for Marth until they made a last minute decision to give them balance considerations, and Ike hasn't been in a game since 2007. Unless he appears in a new game his relevancy is long gone. I don't see how you can lambast the idea of Zelda having one-off characters when literally every FE character is a one-off character.



If they don't cut them then they should at least relegate them to alternate costumes for Marth because their gameplay is almost exactly the same. It'd be like if each of the Koopalings had ever so slight changes to Bowser Jr.'s core moveset. What's the point? It's just padding.



I don't think you have a leg to stand on with the "literally millions of fans" argument. Zelda has many more fans and is a much bigger franchise and it has less characters than FE does. How does your argument make sense?

As for the rest of what you said here, I mostly agree, I imagine Roy and Corrin will automatically be in the game if it gets ported to Switch. Personally I purchased all the DLC, not merely for myself but also for the people I play with offline. I admit it was my choice yes, but the fact remains that there are still too many FE characters and there are other franchises I'd like to see. Spending time developing FE characters gets in the way of that happening.



It's not so much that I "want them gone" but more the fact that I accept that trimming of the roster has to happen with each iteration of the game, either because they have to redo everything from scratch or because too many characters will make the game unbalanced. And with that said I nominate the FE characters for the cutting room first, because there are too many of them.

It is sadly an unfeasible fantasy to keep all the characters you want, add new ones on top of that and still have a balanced game. Ideally yes, if they could pull it off, let's have a hundred characters in Smash and keep all the Fire Emblems and even add a few new ones. But you know as well as I do that this isn't happening and trimming of the roster needs to happen for the sake of balance and development of new characters. Cuts do suck but they are an inevitable aspect of designing sequels to fighting games unless you're okay with it being a broken crazy mess like Marvel. So that's why I nominate the FE characters, because they are over-represented for a series that isn't nearly as important as Mario, Zelda or Pokemon.

You're missing my point. Because of Fire Emblem's ever-changing cast, the series literally has EIGHTEEN characters that can be considered main characters in the strictest definition of the word (Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, Hector, Eirika, Ephraim, Ike, Micaiah, Chrom, Robin, Lucina, Corrin) with cases able to be made for Azura, Xander, and Ryoma as well. Meanwhile, Zelda has a consistent set of three, which are some form of Link, Zelda, and Ganon. Impa is the only one that even comes close. Because the Fire Emblem cast is ever changing and ever expanding, having six characters makes sense, especially when all six are popular within the Fire Emblem fanbase in general. And even then, there's still a lot uncovered, even with just main characters. Obviously Sigurd, Seliph, and Leif are excused due to no Western release (Roy and Marth were a different story in Melee...nowadays I wouldn't see a Japan-only Fire Emblem character getting in), but that still leaves NINE main characters not playable, even with the six we have now.

That's my point. Realistically it's impossible (well, extremely improbable anyway) that Fire Emblem will ever be as well represented in Smash as Zelda is now. Zelda has every truly important character present already, with Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Fire Emblem, like Pokémon, can get away with a larger cast because by nature its roster of main characters will never be complete.

And about Ike. You're aware he's the single most popular Fire Emblem character of all time, right? And Roy was the second most popular male character, while Lucina was the second most popular female character. So saying something like we have those three "just to have them" is laughable. I'm not even the biggest fan of Roy and I can recognize that he and the others have enough merit to retain their spots. All three of them are far more important to Fire Emblem than someone like Midna or Fi is to The Legend of Zelda, and that's coming from someone who'd LOVE to see Darunia playable in Smash.

tl;dr: Zelda has 100% of its main characters (3/3). Fire Emblem has 33% of its own (6/18). This is due to the nature of their series as a whole more than anything else and is the reason the latter can get away with having more characters than the former.

 

[Arcadenik]

@GoldenYuiitusin Fair enough. I don't agree but I get where you are coming from. You want the character to remain the same as they were first included. I want that too but I'm willing to have characters tweaked if it's necessary to keep them in the game without issues like Ice Climbers had with the 3DS. I don't know how the Switch would handle them since it is both a home console and a handheld. Then again, if it can handle Breath of the Wild, maybe it can handle 8-16 Ice Climbers.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Considering that the Nintendo Switch could still run into lag with Breath of the Wild, I'm not too sure if a Smash Switch can handle 8 sets of Ice Climbers in an 8-player Smash match. You need to also take into account the support characters, as they too can end up causing the game to lag if too many high quality models are present on-screen.

 

[Arcadenik]

Considering that the Nintendo Switch could still run into lag with Breath of the Wild, I'm not too sure if a Smash Switch can handle 8 sets of Ice Climbers in an 8-player Smash match. You need to also take into account the support characters, as they too can end up causing the game to lag if too many high quality models are present on-screen.

I noticed the lag in Breath of the Wild. It usually happens when I'm fighting with a bunch of Bokoblins and Moblins.

Off topic, I'm working on getting 900 Korok seeds. I have about 770 seeds by now.

 

[Spatman]

There's no such thing as "slots". It's not like Sakurai said, "okay, for this game we should have only 45 characters so we need to pick which characters to fill these slots".

We have these numbers because that's how many characters Sakurai and his team managed to finish before the deadline.

do you prefer "waste of time", then? haha
for me, of course

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, 8 player Smash doesn't need to be online in itself. That said, I hope IC's would work in 8 player Smash offline when it comes to the Switch. Best case scenario is you can't use them in that mode and leave it at that. For the purpose of Classic Mode, just make it so only one set of IC's can show up in the 8 player Smash segments of it, assuming it doesn't get changed up enough.

Anyway, I prefer them with some tweaks to help make them more balanced, but I don't want their gimmick gone. I still can't adjust to Bowser's changes in 4, so major tweaks can matter even if it doesn't completely take away their main gimmick.. >.<

 

[PsychoJosh]

Backhanded attack? Seriously? That was in no way an attack.

Well as long as you didn't intend it as such, I'm sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you.

You're missing my point. Because of Fire Emblem's ever-changing cast, the series literally has EIGHTEEN characters that can be considered main characters in the strictest definition of the word (Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Seliph, Leif, Roy, Eliwood, Lyn, Hector, Eirika, Ephraim, Ike, Micaiah, Chrom, Robin, Lucina, Corrin) with cases able to be made for Azura, Xander, and Ryoma as well. Meanwhile, Zelda has a consistent set of three, which are some form of Link, Zelda, and Ganon. Impa is the only one that even comes close. Because the Fire Emblem cast is ever changing and ever expanding, having six characters makes sense, especially when all six are popular within the Fire Emblem fanbase in general. And even then, there's still a lot uncovered, even with just main characters. Obviously Sigurd, Seliph, and Leif are excused due to no Western release (Roy and Marth were a different story in Melee...nowadays I wouldn't see a Japan-only Fire Emblem character getting in), but that still leaves NINE main characters not playable, even with the six we have now.

Let me talk a bit about Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

There were literally dozens of protagonists from all the combined Street Fighter, Megaman, and Resident Evil games for them to choose from, yet none of those series has more than four reps in that game. It could be argued that they could've had more Street Fighters or Megaman characters in there from all the different games, but they decided to keep that minimal because then they wouldn't be able to develop characters from all their other franchises that people wanted to see. MVC2 had way more Street Fighter characters, but only as a result of using pre-existing assets from earlier games. Since they had to redo MVC3 from scratch, they had to pick their characters more carefully, because they knew they had to reach from as many of their franchises as possible to create an interesting roster.

Now Sakurai develops things differently in Smash 4, sure, but I don't agree with his methods. I think MVC3 did a much better job of balancing the Capcom side of the roster with new and retro picks and I'd want Smash to follow in that aspect.

The sheer amount of FE protagonists isn't really relevant or a good excuse as to why they have so many reps in this game. They're obviously never going to be able to put all of the protagonists in, and I'm arguing that they shouldn't even ATTEMPT to put even HALF them all in, and you should be with me on that as a Fire Emblem fan because all they're going to do is disappoint people who are wishing for certain characters - I'm sure you recall the drama about Chrom merely being part of Robin's Final Smash. Since they're never going to be able to put all the protagonists from FE in the game, ideally, they should only put in the "face" character of the series (Marth), some popular fan pick (Ike) and someone from the latest game in the series.

Now you may notice that I'm not arguing they should do this for Pokemon or Mario. This is because Mario characters tend to branch off into their own franchises (see Donkey Kong Country and Warioware), and Pokemon are so varied that it's almost impossible for any of them to fight similarly unless the developers deliberately do something trolly like putting Pichu in the game. With the Fire Emblem characters, they have a tendency of fighting mostly the same way. From both an aesthetic and gameplay perspective, they are boring and homogenous, and there is no reason to have this many samey characters. It's like if they put in ALL the shotos from Street Fighter (Ryu, Ken, Gouken, Akuma, Sean and Dan) in MVC3 without picking any grappler, or any rushdown character, or anyone else from that series. Some ground rules need to be established before Sakurai tries pulling this again, such as no clones, and more variety in fighting styles.

And about Ike. You're aware he's the single most popular Fire Emblem character of all time, right? And Roy was the second most popular male character, while Lucina was the second most popular female character. So saying something like we have those three "just to have them" is laughable. I'm not even the biggest fan of Roy and I can recognize that he and the others have enough merit to retain their spots. All three of them are far more important to Fire Emblem than someone like Midna or Fi is to The Legend of Zelda, and that's coming from someone who'd LOVE to see Darunia playable in Smash.

Yeah, I'm saying Ike can stay, as long as they distinguish his gameplay more from Marth next time. And yes, you do have the others "just to have them". Lucina and Roy serve no purpose in this game, they are essentially alternate costumes for Marth. If they had a purpose to be in the game they wouldn't be almost exact clones.

To summarize: you don't need FE six characters. You need a face character, a popular character, and a character from the latest game, at most, and they all need to look and play sufficiently different from each other. That way you cover the most bases in the FE fanbase without unnecessary padding and allow other characters to get worked on. Adding more is pointless, especially if they're going to be clone or even semi-clone characters, because like you said, they're never going to be able to add enough to appeal to all the FE fans, and attempting to do so only screws over the fanbases of other games who want to see their characters. For both balance and roster considerations in the next game, FE needs to be trimmed the most of any franchise in Smash.

 

[Opossum]

Well as long as you didn't intend it as such, I'm sorry if I sounded like I was attacking you.


Let me talk a bit about Marvel vs. Capcom 3.

There were literally dozens of protagonists from all the combined Street Fighter, Megaman, and Resident Evil games for them to choose from, yet none of those series has more than four reps in that game. It could be argued that they could've had more Street Fighters or Megaman characters in there from all the different games, but they decided to keep that minimal because then they wouldn't be able to develop characters from all their other franchises that people wanted to see. MVC2 had way more Street Fighter characters, but only as a result of using pre-existing assets from earlier games. Since they had to redo MVC3 from scratch, they had to pick their characters more carefully, because they knew they had to reach from as many of their franchises as possible to create an interesting roster.

Now Sakurai develops things differently in Smash 4, sure, but I don't agree with his methods. I think MVC3 did a much better job of balancing the Capcom side of the roster with new and retro picks and I'd want Smash to follow in that aspect.

The sheer amount of FE protagonists isn't really relevant or a good excuse as to why they have so many reps in this game. They're obviously never going to be able to put all of the protagonists in, and I'm arguing that they shouldn't even ATTEMPT to put even HALF them all in, and you should be with me on that as a Fire Emblem fan because all they're going to do is disappoint people who are wishing for certain characters - I'm sure you recall the drama about Chrom merely being part of Robin's Final Smash. Since they're never going to be able to put all the protagonists from FE in the game, ideally, they should only put in the "face" character of the series (Marth), some popular fan pick (Ike) and someone from the latest game in the series.

Now you may notice that I'm not arguing they should do this for Pokemon or Mario. This is because Mario characters tend to branch off into their own franchises (see Donkey Kong Country and Warioware), and Pokemon are so varied that it's almost impossible for any of them to fight similarly unless the developers deliberately do something trolly like putting Pichu in the game. With the Fire Emblem characters, they have a tendency of fighting mostly the same way. From both an aesthetic and gameplay perspective, they are boring and homogenous, and there is no reason to have this many samey characters. It's like if they put in ALL the shotos from Street Fighter (Ryu, Ken, Gouken, Akuma, Sean and Dan) in MVC3 without picking any grappler, or any rushdown character, or anyone else from that series. Some ground rules need to be established before Sakurai tries pulling this again, such as no clones, and more variety in fighting styles.



Yeah, I'm saying Ike can stay, as long as they distinguish his gameplay more from Marth next time. And yes, you do have the others "just to have them". Lucina and Roy serve no purpose in this game, they are essentially alternate costumes for Marth. If they had a purpose to be in the game they wouldn't be almost exact clones.

To summarize: you don't need FE six characters. You need a face character, a popular character, and a character from the latest game, at most, and they all need to look and play sufficiently different from each other. That way you cover the most bases in the FE fanbase without unnecessary padding and allow other characters to get worked on. Adding more is pointless, especially if they're going to be clone or even semi-clone characters, because like you said, they're never going to be able to add enough to appeal to all the FE fans, and attempting to do so only screws over the fanbases of other games who want to see their characters. For both balance and roster considerations in the next game, FE needs to be trimmed the most of any franchise in Smash.

I know you're trying to say that disappointment from some fans is inevitable. That's true. At the end of the day of course some folks will be disappointed. That isn't even just true for Fire Emblem. The same can be said for the roster at large.

But that's just the thing...if we can't get all of the Fire Emblem protagonists in the game, and you don't want others disappointed by their omission...then why would you opt to severely downsize what's already there? That would just disappoint more people. Yeah, at the end of the day, fans of Chrom, Lyn, or Alm might be disappointed, but why add the fans of Roy/Lucina/Corrin/Robin onto that?

You also say that the Fire Emblem characters are homogeneous, even outside of the clones. That couldn't be further from the truth. Roy and Lucina aside for obvious reasons, the current cast all play completely differently.

Marth is a quick and nimble swordsman whose style emulates European fencing and has a large focus on spacing to pressure foes.

Ike is a burly swordsman who, while slow, punishes the enemy's mistake with brute force.

Robin follows the Magic Knight/Red Mage archetype by using various magical tomes and two distinct swords. He's a projectile-heavy zoner who relies on resource management skills.

Corrin is a versatile swordswoman and part dragon, using both the chainsaw-like Omega Yato and various moves that rely on partial transformation. She's a nimble character who relies on stage control and high mobility.


Pretty much the only thing alike with any of them is the fact that Marth and Ike both have a Counter move (which makes sense when considering how integral counter attacks are in their home series) and Corrin has Dragon Surge. They're all also pretty visually distinct, especially now that Ike is using his Radiant Dawn look.

 

[Luminario]

I know you're trying to say that disappointment from some fans is inevitable. That's true. At the end of the day of course some folks will be disappointed. That isn't even just true for Fire Emblem. The same can be said for the roster at large.

But that's just the thing...if we can't get all of the Fire Emblem protagonists in the game, and you don't want others disappointed by their omission...then why would you opt to severely downsize what's already there? That would just disappoint more people. Yeah, at the end of the day, fans of Chrom, Lyn, or Alm might be disappointed, but why add the fans of Roy/Lucina/Corrin/Robin onto that?

You also say that the Fire Emblem characters are homogeneous, even outside of the clones. That couldn't be further from the truth. Roy and Lucina aside for obvious reasons, the current cast all play completely differently.

Marth is a quick and nimble swordsman whose style emulates European fencing and has a large focus on spacing to pressure foes.

Ike is a burly swordsman who, while slow, punishes the enemy's mistake with brute force.

Robin follows the Magic Knight/Red Mage archetype by using various magical tomes and two distinct swords. He's a projectile-heavy zoner who relies on resource management skills.

Corrin is a versatile swordswoman and part dragon, using both the chainsaw-like Omega Yato and various moves that rely on partial transformation. She's a nimble character who relies on stage control and high mobility.


Pretty much the only thing alike with any of them is the fact that Marth and Ike both have a Counter move (which makes sense when considering how integral counter attacks are in their home series) and Corrin has Dragon Surge. They're all also pretty visually distinct, especially now that Ike is using his Radiant Dawn look.

I think it's to do with them all using swords a lot. You know, slash here, slash there, slashy slashy~ it's easy to make a moveset for but rather boring as FE has such weapon variety. Robin's the biggest offender of this, as they could have gone down the road of a pure tome user without that dreadful durability gimmick.
Still, they all play differently and they're all exceptionally unique, so out of the 6 FE characters those 4 are most likely to be returning.