Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Pakky]

RIP Toad's chances at being in Smash

Jesus...

This whole thing is just a trash fire, good lord.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

The thing that bothers me is that all they had to do was include the few things he actually does do. Dead Man’s Volley being the most important. If he had that, he’d at least be as accurate as Donkey Kong(who only had one move til 64).

Dead Man’s volley to replace Warlock Punch would be all I actually need to consider him well represented and I think most people would agree since he didn’t do all that much else before Wind Walker.

The rest of his moveset would be fine as is, so long as he had that one damn thing. Lol.

But I would have preferred the OG Pig Demon.
If they had waited til BrawlC he could have pulled a Zelda/Sheik and transformed between both.

I just realised, King DDD has more of a Dead Man's Volley than Ganondorf does.

 

[staindgrey]

Having fans shouldn't matter unless the character has a lot of fans. You could say the same thing about characters who haven't even been in Smash, but that wouldn't be a reason to add them.

Maybe for you.

It's amazing. It's like we're all different.

 

[Deleted member]

I appreciate this sentiment. There's way too much Sakurai worship, and he's great and I love his game design/dedication/ all of it, but he's totally fallible. Ganondorf is, imo the biggest mistake in all of Smash, because unlike others it can't really be fixed at this point.

I appreciate that he has a few sword attacks and doesn't seem to be total garbage this go around, but that doesn't make up for the fact that he barely represents his own character and is more of a smash caricature. Would have been better to have waited until Brawl and given him a unique move set.

I understand the sentiment but I have to disagree on Ganondorf being a mistake. As a Ganondorf main, I really can't see him as anything else and believe he is perfect the way he is. There isn't really much you coukd do with his normals that doesn't involve a sword and I'm sure a lot of people are tired of those. Warlock Punch fits him greatly though it needs a buff(like Warlock Thrust), Flame Choke is perfect and Wizard's Dive works well with his known abilities. Wizard's Foot is the only one of his specials that I'd say could be changed tbh, but even then it fits him.
And this isn't just because I like his moveset, I do like it but I sure wouldn't play Black Shadow with his moveset as some people have suggested numerous times in the past.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I understand the sentiment but I have to disagree on Ganondorf being a mistake. As a Ganondorf main, I really can't see him as anything else and believe he is perfect the way he is. There isn't really much you coukd do with his normals that doesn't involve a sword and I'm sure a lot of people are tired of those. Warlock Punch fits him greatly though it needs a buff(like Warlock Thrust), Flame Choke is perfect and Wizard's Dive works well with his known abilities. Wizard's Foot is the only one of his specials that I'd say could be changed tbh, but even then it fits him.
And this isn't just because I like his moveset, I do like it but I sure wouldn't play Black Shadow with his moveset as some people have suggested numerous times in the past.

Dead man’s volley, though. Lol.
I respect your appreciation of him.
He’s my favorite villain in any series ever.
He’s also my secondary and that’s only because he isn’t accurate to his games and that’s just because of the above mentioned move.

I still love him as is. Ganondorf is boss.
Glad you main him.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

The thing that bothers me is that all they had to do was include the few things he actually does do. Dead Man’s Volley being the most important. If he had that, he’d at least be as accurate as Donkey Kong(who only had one move til 64).

Dead Man’s volley to replace Warlock Punch would be all I actually need to consider him well represented and I think most people would agree since he didn’t do all that much else before Wind Walker.

The rest of his moveset would be fine as is, so long as he had that one damn thing. Lol.

But I would have preferred the OG Pig Demon.
If they had waited til BrawlC he could have pulled a Zelda/Sheik and transformed between both.

Deep down I'm also just bitter they didn't wait so we could just get Toon Ganondorf which is best Ganondorf.

I understand the sentiment but I have to disagree on Ganondorf being a mistake. As a Ganondorf main, I really can't see him as anything else and believe he is perfect the way he is. There isn't really much you coukd do with his normals that doesn't involve a sword and I'm sure a lot of people are tired of those. Warlock Punch fits him greatly though it needs a buff(like Warlock Thrust), Flame Choke is perfect and Wizard's Dive works well with his known abilities. Wizard's Foot is the only one of his specials that I'd say could be changed tbh, but even then it fits him.
And this isn't just because I like his moveset, I do like it but I sure wouldn't play Black Shadow with his moveset as some people have suggested numerous times in the past.

Having some normals be punches sure, but his whole Moveset be reflected by melee combat?

It's ok to like his playstyle, but how he plays does not at all reflect his actual canon character.

(And if you wanna argue it does just PM because I've already done the multiple page arguement on this in general lol)

 

[Jedisupersonic]

FEAR HIM, FOR HE IS RAYMAN-MAN!

The next Megaman boss is revealed.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Having fans shouldn't matter unless the character has a lot of fans. You could say the same thing about characters who haven't even been in Smash, but that wouldn't be a reason to add them.

Maybe for you.

People get a lot more attached to what they already had, than to just the idea of something that could happen, and cut veterans tend to carry a lot more demand than almost all prospective newcomers. "Everyone Is Here!" almost certainly happened because of how well the veterans performed on the Smash Ballot; Snake, Wolf, and Ice Climbers were by all accounts Ballot frontrunners, Pokemon Trainer/Squirtle/Ivysaur certainly had a good amount of pull in the Ballot, and while Pichu and Young Link might not have done so well, after bringing back all the other characters you might as well bring back the two low effort clones so you can claim every single Smash character ever is back, it's not like you could have had any newcomer that wasn't a clone themselves in Pichu's and Young Link's place.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

alright I traced down the whole vergeben source said sakurai lied about Geno stuff and it looks to be a cobbled together collection of Resetera posts from before e3. I therefore half take back my statement that Sakurai used the desperation of geno fans to milk them for money buying ****ty costumes. But I still won't ignore the possibility he did it for the money.

 

[Luigi The President]

alright I traced down the whole vergeben source said sakurai lied about Geno stuff and it looks to be a cobbled together collection of Resetera posts from before e3. I therefore half take back my statement that Sakurai used the desperation of geno fans to milk them for money buying ****ty costumes. But I still won't ignore the possibility he did it for the money.

You know you can have multiple reasons for doing things like that, right...?
Money, yes, since he's a director and needs to make money...and, you know, a fondness for the character?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Bayonetta's daily clothes are prone to rip at slightest attack so it might not be a good idea.

We get to see her bare *** in both games, so that alone makes it a gloriously great idea

 

[Deleted member]

Dead man’s volley, though. Lol.
I respect your appreciation of him.
He’s my favorite villain in any series ever.
He’s also my secondary and that’s only because he isn’t accurate to his games and that’s just because of the above mentioned move.

I still love him as is. Ganondorf is boss.
Glad you main him.

I just don't see Dead Man's Volley as that fitting with his overall moveset, it's a projectile in a heavyweight like Ganon. Let's say it goes straight forward and hitting it turns it back, it then becomes useless, DDD's Gordos at least don't follow a predictable pattern so it's not as easy to send them back in.

Deep down I'm also just bitter they didn't wait so we could just get Toon Ganondorf which is best Ganondorf.

Having some normals be punches sure, but his whole Moveset be reflected by melee combat?

It's ok to like his playstyle, but how he plays does not at all reflect his actual canon character.

(And if you wanna argue it does just PM because I've already done the multiple page arguement on this in general lol)

I mean, let's see his fights:
OoT: Dead Man's Volley on the first round with some ground punching which is like Wizard's Foot with a different body part. Then becomes Beast Ganon. Concept art showcases him fighting Link in melee combat.
WW: dual wielding. Is shown using melee combat during cutscenes.
TPA: two-hand sword alongside some physical combat with kicks and then Beast Ganon.

There just isn't much to work with to begin with and dual wielding doesn't fit his TP/OoT designs, he mostly shows up as Beast Ganon rather than his humanoid form, so the source material is extremely limited and yet, in all of his appearances, he uses melee combat, it's the one constant in his fights and it works because he's the wielder of the Triforce of POWERA, he doesn't need magic or swords, those are what Link and Zelda do.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I never said Rayman won, just that I can 99% guarantee you, he got a good chunk more european votes than bayonetta did.

Like, is it that hard to believe that sakurai is just a serial liar, and he just makes everything sound nice to make you buy the game or shut up?

Oh look Ridley can never happen please leave me alone about it - oh wait all you had to do was shrink him a bit wasn't that funny I wouldn't have done it if Nintendo didn't have a weak E3 and needed some fanservice to boost their show that wasn't fortnite without my fans! <3

Oh look I would love to add geno to smash i've been trying for years maybe if you BUY THESE MII COSTUMES it could convince people that geno is more popular and maybe Square will let him in I hope one of vergeben's sources doesn't confirm I lied about Geno a couple years later

I love smash more than any other game series, and Ultimate, is shaping up to be the best smash by far, but god I am starting to realise how much of a BSer sakurai can be and am somewhat losing my pateience with what he says.

There's a lot of PR talk, but I definitely wouldn't call Sakurai a "serial liar". People twist his words around. A lot.

Ridley? He never said Ridley could never happen, he said that it'd be difficult to shrink him down while making him feel just as imposing as he should and that he thinks Ridley would be better represented as a boss.

I definitely don't recall him saying "if you all buy this Geno costume he'll be in the next game". I remember him acknowledging his popularity but never actually implying he was going to happen. He was just trying to throw a bone to Geno's niche support base with that costume and too many of them took it as confirmation.

And oftentimes, a reason he gives for why he didn't do something is not a reason why he never will. He said Mewtwo in Smash 4 would difficult because he couldn't just port assets over from Brawl like with other veterans. That explains why he wasn't in the base game, but it didn't rule out the possibility of DLC.

And other times, he changes his mind on things. That can happen. Sakurai today doesn't have the same beliefs as Sakurai a decade ago. Just look at how much Ultimate is appealing to the competitive crowd compared to Brawl.

Honestly the whole Bayonetta thing is the only "lie" I can think of from him.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

So how about that Yarn Yoshi alt. I think It’s okay. But it looks too much like some sorta felt Yoshi.

 

[Luigi The President]

So how about that Yarn Yoshi alt. I think It’s okay. But it looks too much like some sorta felt Yoshi.

That isn't Yarn Yoshi. That is Crafted Yoshi.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

New costumes in a Source Gaming exclusive that Nintendo Everything stole without sourcing.

Oh? Do tell!

 

[SvartWolf]

Real talk because I keep thinking about it .

What if Pyramid Head?

Or the Boy Goemon?

or ... you know... bomberman

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I understand the sentiment but I have to disagree on Ganondorf being a mistake. As a Ganondorf main, I really can't see him as anything else and believe he is perfect the way he is. There isn't really much you coukd do with his normals that doesn't involve a sword and I'm sure a lot of people are tired of those. Warlock Punch fits him greatly though it needs a buff(like Warlock Thrust), Flame Choke is perfect and Wizard's Dive works well with his known abilities. Wizard's Foot is the only one of his specials that I'd say could be changed tbh, but even then it fits him.
And this isn't just because I like his moveset, I do like it but I sure wouldn't play Black Shadow with his moveset as some people have suggested numerous times in the past.

They don't have to make him a sword wielder though, just have him use magic since he is supposed to be a sorcerer after all, Like a less sparkly and more electricy Zelda. Also, he's in dire need of a projectile.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I appreciate this sentiment. There's way too much Sakurai worship, and he's great and I love his game design/dedication/ all of it, but he's totally fallible. Ganondorf is, imo the biggest mistake in all of Smash, because unlike others it can't really be fixed at this point.

I appreciate that he has a few sword attacks and doesn't seem to be total garbage this go around, but that doesn't make up for the fact that he barely represents his own character and is more of a smash caricature. Would have been better to have waited until Brawl and given him a unique move set.

See kids, this is why bad work ethics have horrible long term affects. Ever since Melee's horrible development, a very iconic and well known Zelda character had to be outfitted with Falcon's moveset in order to keep up with demands. They were so afraid of "betraying" their own fanbase that they never changed him until now where they felt comfortable (or maybe needed to for some real reason i dunno [] ). If you need more proof then I can tell you that the Sonic fanbase was an actual main reason as to why Sonic 06 was a horrible game, mostly since they wanted the game to launch a FULL year before its initial date for the 15th anniversary.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I just don't see Dead Man's Volley as that fitting with his overall moveset, it's a projectile in a heavyweight like Ganon. Let's say it goes straight forward and hitting it turns it back, it then becomes useless, DDD's Gordos at least don't follow a predictable pattern so it's not as easy to send them back in.

I mean, let's see his fights:
OoT: Dead Man's Volley on the first round with some ground punching which is like Wizard's Foot with a different body part. Then becomes Beast Ganon. Concept art showcases him fighting Link in melee combat.
WW: dual wielding. Is shown using melee combat during cutscenes.
TPA: two-hand sword alongside some physical combat with kicks and then Beast Ganon.

There just isn't much to work with to begin with and dual wielding doesn't fit his TP/OoT designs, he mostly shows up as Beast Ganon rather than his humanoid form, so the source material is extremely limited and yet, in all of his appearances, he uses melee combat, it's the one constant in his fights and it works because he's the wielder of the Triforce of POWERA, he doesn't need magic or swords, those are what Link and Zelda do.

That's like looking at any sword fighter in a game and ignoring that they fight with a sword and focusing on the few blocks/counters/etc that they use their fists.

He's a sword fighter and magic user first. Never a melee combatant first. Not enough to justify an entire brawler move set.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

That isn't Yarn Yoshi. That is Crafted Yoshi.

When I saw the trailer, I thought it had the same design as Yarn Yoshi. Geez I’m stupid

 

[Luigi The President]

When I saw the trailer, I thought it had the same design as Yarn Yoshi. Geez I’m stupid

Nah, simple and easy mistake

 

[Deleted member]

They don't have to make him a sword wielder though, just have him use magic since he is supposed to be a sorcerer after all, Like a less sparkly and more electricy Zelda. Also, he's in dire need of a projectile.

I like the contrast between Zelda characters with one weapon-based fighter, a magic wielder and a hand-to-hand fighter than having the weapon-based fighter alongside two magic wielders. He isn't shown doing much magic anyways.

That's like looking at any sword fighter in a game and ignoring that they fight with a sword and focusing on the few blocks/counters/etc that they use their fists.

He's a sword fighter and magic user first. Never a melee combatant first. Not enough to justify an entire brawler move set.

But his fighting style isn't consistent: there's one spell in OoT and none in WW or TP. He uses no sword, then two, then one, which can't all be translated into a coherent moveset.

 

[staindgrey]

They don't have to make him a sword wielder though, just have him use magic since he is supposed to be a sorcerer after all, Like a less sparkly and more electricy Zelda. Also, he's in dire need of a projectile.

I just imagined Ganondorf as a Zelda clone,

It was pretty amazing.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

There's a lot of PR talk, but I definitely wouldn't call Sakurai a "serial liar". People twist his words around. A lot.

Ridley? He never said Ridley could never happen, he said that it'd be difficult to shrink him down while making him feel just as imposing as he should and that he thinks Ridley would be better represented as a boss.

I definitely don't recall him saying "if you all buy this Geno costume he'll be in the next game". I remember him acknowledging his popularity but never actually implying he was going to happen. He was just trying to throw a bone to Geno's niche support base with that costume and too many of them took it as confirmation.

And oftentimes, a reason he gives for why he didn't do something is not a reason why he never will. He said Mewtwo in Smash 4 would difficult because he couldn't just port assets over from Brawl like with other veterans. That explains why he wasn't in the base game, but it didn't rule out the possibility of DLC.

And other times, he changes his mind on things. That can happen. Sakurai today doesn't have the same beliefs as Sakurai a decade ago. Just look at how much Ultimate is appealing to the competitive crowd compared to Brawl.

Honestly the whole Bayonetta thing is the only "lie" I can think of from him.

Again I have to point out the "Vergeben source said sakurai never wanted geno in smash" thing was misinformation I was given, but he Never name drops characters unless it's special circumstances, I won't account for the Melee blog stuff like Ayumi and Banjo because that was a different time when he could be a lot more transparent about his personal opinions on the internet, but you mean to tell me that this guy, who makes video games for a community that analyzes clouds, shadows and chairs, would not realise that he would be setting expectations by namedropping characters, especially someone like geno who pretty much went in people's eyes from 0% to a possibility after he namedropped him. The only character I could think of that he namedropped as a contender and didn't add or isn't likely to add at some point (like Heihachi) was Krystal, and he made is clear that if Krystal was in, she would have been a fox semiclone rather than an original character. I can't believe that the guy who refuses to ever mention Rhythm Heaven despite it being the worst kept secret that a character was intended to be included in smash 4, doesn't know that "I wanted to include X" doesn't set a degree of expectations amongst the community, real or not.

He ain't dumb, he knows how the community will take his statements on geno to the grave, and it means either A. He earnestly wants this character to join smash bros on a personal level or b. he knew this would have made people buy the geno costume instead of feel insulted that he was a costume, by making those statements on geno, he changed the narrative of the costume from "This is a consolation prize he didn't make it" to "I've been trying to get geno in for a while now, but this is the best i can give you atm".

If Geno was never possible, I just wish he was honest to us, and gave us the ridley statement of "it won't happen sorry" regardless of if he actually had plans or not.

 

[Pyra]

Haha these guys are funny

or ... you know... bomberman

Nah, Goemon is better

 

[Deleted member]

I just imagined Ganondorf as a Zelda clone,

It was pretty amazing.

Funnily enough, Down B could actually work with Phantom Ganon tho.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Real talk because I keep thinking about it .

What if Pyramid Head?

Or the Boy Goemon?

I'm mad you guys are not saying Jehuty because I really do want Jehuty in Smash

 

[staindgrey]

View attachment 165204

Haha these guys are funny

Okay, I'll bite.

What's the controversy here.

 

[Q-Long]

If you were Pokemon Trainer in Smash, which 3 mons would you pick?

You need a final evolution (Charizard), a second evolution (Ivysaur), and a first evolution (Squirtle).

For me, Nidoking, Hitmontop, and Corsola.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I definitely don't recall him saying "if you all buy this Geno costume he'll be in the next game". I remember him acknowledging his popularity but never actually implying he was going to happen. He was just trying to throw a bone to Geno's niche support base with that costume and too many of them took it as confirmation.

He did say he tried to get him in Brawl or something to that effect, as well as thinking he'd be perfect for Smash and commenting on his hand-gun.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I like the contrast between Zelda characters with one weapon-based fighter, a magic wielder and a hand-to-hand fighter than having the weapon-based fighter alongside two magic wielders. He isn't shown doing much magic anyways.

But his fighting style isn't consistent: there's one spell in OoT and none in WW or TP. He uses no sword, then two, then one, which can't all be translated into a coherent moveset.

He isn't shown doing much hand to hand combat either, in Zelda 1 he fights by firing projectiles and teleporting, in a link to the past he does the same plus a trident that he only ever uses as a projectile. In Ocarina of Time he spends the whole fight using magic projectiles + a magical ground slam, and when he changes into ganon he has dual swords. Then in Wind Waker he uses dual swords again and uses physical attacks in a couple cutscenes. Then in twilight princess he uses a single sword and a couple kicks but twilight princess came out after melee anyway so his melee appearance likely influenced that. The fact of the matter is that Ganon/Ganondorf isn't a brawler type character and never was apart from a small part of wind waker, there's no reason he should be one and it's completely innaccurate to his source material whether you like the moveset or not.

 

[Deleted member]

If you were Pokemon Trainer in Smash, which 3 mons would you pick?

You need a final evolution (Charizard), a second evolution (Ivysaur), and a first evolution (Squirtle).

For me, Nidoking, Hitmontop, and Corsola.

Politoed, Farfetch'd, and Malamar. None of these Pokemon would ever have a shot at being playable ever, and are among my favorites.

 

[Luigi The President]

He did say he tried to get him in Brawl or something to that effect, as well as thinking he'd be perfect for Smash and commenting on his hand-gun.

You know, we did kinda forget Sakurai tweeting how a model of a handgun would be incredibly useful for his "upcoming game"...

 

[staindgrey]

If you were Pokemon Trainer in Smash, which 3 mons would you pick?

You need a final evolution (Charizard), a second evolution (Ivysaur), and a first evolution (Squirtle).

For me, Nidoking, Hitmontop, and Corsola.

Ooo! Ooo! Ooo!

Blastoise, Scizor, Sneasel.

Easy.

 

[Deleted member]

He isn't shown doing much hand to hand combat either, in Zelda 1 he fights by firing projectiles and teleporting, in a link to the past he does the same plus a trident that he only ever uses as a projectile. In Ocarina of Time he spends the whole fight using magic projectiles + a magical ground slam, and when he changes into ganon he has dual swords. Then in Wind Waker he uses dual swords again and uses physical attacks in a couple cutscenes. Then in twilight princess he uses a single sword and a couple kicks but twilight princess came out after melee anyway so his melee appearance likely influenced that. The fact of the matter is that Ganon/Ganondorf isn't a brawler type character and never was apart from a small part of wind waker, there's no reason he should be one and it's completely innaccurate to his source material whether you like the moveset or not.

If you're talking about Beast Ganon, that's a different beast(heh). A Beast Ganon fighter should do those things but humanoid Ganondorf never wields a Trident, teleports or fires bat projectiles.

 

[staindgrey]

Politoed, Farfetch'd, and Malamar. None of these Pokemon would ever have a shot at being playable ever, and are among my favorites.

Don't give up hope. My favorite is the fire-painted platypus butthead Magmar, and I knew he'd just get left in the dust of forgotten first-gen history.

Then they went and gave me a whole section of the Sun/Moon world littered with fully animated Magmars walking around.

You just gotta believe.

 

[Icedragonadam]

So what I'm hearing is that Yoshi has a Crafted alt and potentially a Crafted World Stage right?

 

[Deleted member]

So question for you all. What would you’re reaction be if the next Smash game cut these characters:










:ultrobin







in exchange for:
Skull Kid
Impa
Sylux
Bandana Waddle Dee
Dixie Kong
Waluigi
A Gen 8 Pokemon
Hector
Elma
Rex & Pyra
Isaac
Banjo and Kazooie
Dante
Doomguy

 

[Luigi The President]

So what I'm hearing is that Yoshi has a Crafted alt and potentially a Crafted World Stage right?

Nothing about a stage. But he does have an alt.

So question for you all. What would you’re reaction be if the next Smash game cut these characters:










:ultrobin







in exchange for:
Skull Kid
Impa
Sylux
Bandana Waddle Dee
Dixie Kong
Waluigi
A Gen 8 Pokemon
A Lance/Ace Fire Emblem lord
Elma
Rex & Pyra
Isaac
Banjo and Kazooie
Dante
Doomguy

Absolute fury that Doomguy, Dante, Sylux, and another FE Lord got in before Paper Mario.