Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Astroworld]

I don’t know why so many people assume Ken and Incineroar would be the last two characters. Didn’t Vergeben not mention K. Rool because he didn’t know about him?

He never said there’s nobody else coming

 

[Shroob]

Remind me again why everyone believes this leak and the box theory so much.

Which one?

 

[Jooji]

I think if the box leak had any weight to the final roster and we’re only getting two characters you’d have to imagine that it’s because their final reveal will be bigger than anything they’ve shown so far. I think they must have put in a lot into that single player mode and I think the reveal of it could be potentially bigger than any character reveal possible. The return of a story mode along with a boss rush mode but like a really good boss rush with like 20+ bosses from different series: Rathalos, Dracula, Dr. Eggman, Porky Minch, Marx, Giga Bowser, Black Knight, Dr. Whily, Buzzwole, Rayquaza, Sephiroth, Kamek, Wart, Waluigi, Master/Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Medusa, Mumkhar, Skull Kid, Demise, Pig Ganon, Andross, King Hippo, Akuma, DJ Octavio & Father Balder.

What bosses do you guys wanna see in Ultimate?

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I can't see an entire direct dedicated to Spirits mode. Let's go for a wild guess here and say Spirits is literally SSE 2. Does anyone think they could carry an entire direct purely on SSE 2 without spoiling the majority of the scenes? I mean the gameplay is pretty simple, what else would they really discuss.

The one thing I could see making Spirits take some time to discuss would be the unlocking characters method in it, IF it is different from SSE.

You're probably right, an entire direct is a lot... i have a feeling it will be a bigger, better SSE but i may be over optimistic

If they're introducing new mechanics, a cinematic CGI trailer and a few other things i'm sure they can stretch the presentation to a 10-15min.

Edit: So about half a direct...

 

[Jedisupersonic]

However thinking on how some music Sakurai could not get (RIP Final Fantasy being Expensive) it still doesn't add up.

I guess we just have to wait and see.

That's true, I just think it might be part of why some series might have some oddball track numbers.

 

[Pakky]

Is it weird that Vergeben, a person that a lot of people seemingly didn't like/care for, has kinda 'tamed' the whole situation around the box theory?


Like, a few days ago, people were going at each other like berserkers.

Now? "Ah, Incineroar, not my first pick but sure."

"A 2nd SE rep? Neat! Who is it?"

Wait there's two in addition to Cloud now?

 

[Shroob]

I don’t know why so many people assume Ken and Incineroar would be the last two characters. Didn’t Vergeben not mention K. Rool because he didn’t know about him?

He never said there’s nobody else coming

I think this is moreso due to a healthy dose of realizing one thing:


Next month 'probably' won't have any reveals unless they announce a Direct, meaning that November is the last time for big reveals.


Even in the 50 facts we only got 2 reveals, being Duck Hunt and Bowser Jr. iirc, so if we're getting Incineroar, Ken and a 2nd SE rep, that's already 3.

 

[Potato_]

You know, I get confused whenever I hear people cite Bayonetta as an underwhelming reveal. Maybe it's just bias on my part, but I remember quite a few people, myself included, wanted her in the game.

Bayo led to one of my favorite Smash reaction vids of all time. I'll always appreciate her inclusion for that.

 

[Shroob]

Wait there's two in addition to Cloud now?

......wat?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Wait there's two in addition to Cloud now?

No that includes Cloud

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I wonder if Spirits mode is going to revolve around the original 8/12 in any fashion, being like the main heroes or anything like that.

I had a thought in my head sometime ago that Spirits mode could be 12 indivdual mini stories of each of the OG 12 teaming up with parts of the rest of the cast and or saving their Spirits. (Unlocking them).

Probably a stupid idea tbh.

 

[Pakky]

......wat?

I thought the rumor was that there was one SE character coming in addition to Cloud who's already in the game.

 

[Shroob]

I thought the rumor was that there was one SE character coming in addition to Cloud who's already in the game.

Uh, yeah, that would make them a 2nd SE rep.

 

[LetterO]

You know, I get confused whenever I hear people cite Bayonetta as an underwhelming reveal. Maybe it's just bias on my part, but I remember quite a few people, myself included, wanted her in the game.

I remember being incredibly disappointed that it wasn’t Inkling. I was also convinced in my younger self’s mind that it was somehow rigged because it wasn’t K. Rool or Shovel Knight.

Had no idea I’d actually be right about 3 years later.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

You know, I get confused whenever I hear people cite Bayonetta as an underwhelming reveal. Maybe it's just bias on my part, but I remember quite a few people, myself included, wanted her in the game.

It's underwhelming to people that didn't want her in the game and wanted someone else

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Remind me again why everyone believes this leak and the box theory so much.

Because the pattern on the box is very specific, and they made the it in a really particular way, which would be a waste of time if it was just going to be discarded or heavily altered to make room for more characters.

If it was just a random mock-up that didn’t have to fit with anything, it probably wouldn’t have a one big hole after Isabelle, and another big hole somewhere in between Palutena and Cloud.

It fits with Verg’s leaks of Ken (with Ken being almost necessary for the pattern to work) and Incineroar.

It fits with the music theory if Incineroar and Ken really are the final two.

It would fit Smashdown perfectly for any amount of players, as one more unique and one more echo would bring the amount of roster final slots to 72, which is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.

It fits with 103 being the final amount of stages, as neither Incineroar or Ken NEED new stages like characters like Isaac, Karate Joe, or Banjo would.

It just fits.

That jog your memory?

 

[Luigi The President]

Bayo led to one of my favorite Smash reaction vids of all time. I'll always appreciate her inclusion for that.

Despite it all, moveset controversy, Ballot debacle, the tier stuff...

...Bayo is still one of the most "deserving" third parties who could've made the cut imo.
She's really Nintendo's baby. She always WILL be Nintendo's baby. They bought her back, they made her possible. And we ate it up.
Is she a third party? Yeah, but in my eyes, she's really a second party.

 

[Chrono.]

Because the pattern on the box is very specific, and they made the it in a really particular way, which would be a waste of time if it was just going to be discarded or heavily altered to make room for more characters.

If it was just a random mock-up that didn’t have to fit with anything, it probably wouldn’t have a one big hole after Isabelle, and another big hole somewhere in between Palutena and Cloud.

It fits with Verg’s leaks of Ken (with Ken being almost necessary for the pattern to work) and Incineroar.

It fits with the music theory if Incineroar and Ken really are the final two.

It would fit Smashdown perfectly for any amount of players, as one more unique and one more echo would bring the amount of roster final slots to 72, which is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.

It fits with 103 being the final amount of stages, as neither Incineroar or Ken NEED new stages like characters like Isaac, Karate Joe, or Banjo would.

It just fits.

That jog your memory?

Smashdown is kind of a moot point considering you start with 8 characters. There has to be a fail safe for that sort of situation.

 

[Potato_]

Next month 'probably' won't have any reveals unless they announce a Direct

This is a pretty big assumption to make, considering we don't know for sure what Nintendo has in store. There's Box Theory sure, but that hasn't been set in stone yet.

I'd argue this belief that only Ken and Incineroar are left is purely due to Box Theory. Without it we go back to not knowing anything, which leaves a lot of possibility. Most people were speculating on a reveal in October and then a big Smash Direct in November before this.

To be fair, I'm fine with setting your expectations low, it makes sense. You do you.

 

[Luigi The President]

Because the pattern on the box is very specific, and they made the it in a really particular way, which would be a waste of time if it was just going to be discarded or heavily altered to make room for more characters.

If it was just a random mock-up that didn’t have to fit with anything, it probably wouldn’t have a one big hole after Isabelle, and another big hole somewhere in between Palutena and Cloud.

It fits with Verg’s leaks of Ken (with Ken being almost necessary for the pattern to work) and Incineroar.

It fits with the music theory if Incineroar and Ken really are the final two.

It would fit Smashdown perfectly for any amount of players, as one more unique and one more echo would bring the amount of roster final slots to 72, which is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.

It fits with 103 being the final amount of stages, as neither Incineroar or Ken NEED new stages like characters like Isaac, Karate Joe, or Banjo would.

It just fits.

That jog your memory?

I don't feel Smashdown's an actually valid reason here.

Also, as we saw with Corocoro, 108 may indeed be the final stage count. You know that, just wanted to point it out.

 

[AugustusB]

Because the pattern on the box is very specific, and they made the it in a really particular way, which would be a waste of time if it was just going to be discarded or heavily altered to make room for more characters.

If it was just a random mock-up that didn’t have to fit with anything, it probably wouldn’t have a one big hole after Isabelle, and another big hole somewhere in between Palutena and Cloud.

It fits with Verg’s leaks of Ken (with Ken being almost necessary for the pattern to work) and Incineroar.

It fits with the music theory if Incineroar and Ken really are the final two.

It would fit Smashdown perfectly for any amount of players, as one more unique and one more echo would bring the amount of roster final slots to 72, which is divisible by 2, 3, and 4.

It fits with 103 being the final amount of stages, as neither Incineroar or Ken NEED new stages like characters like Isaac, Karate Joe, or Banjo would.

It just fits.

That jog your memory?

I stated awhile back, if Ken and Incineroar is really all we are getting in the end...how do we get to 800 music tracks?

 

[Shroob]

I think my biggest fear right now is going to be the potential dead zone from now until November.


IF there's no Smash Direct in October, we could still be 50 days of dead zone.


After the Direct in August, it took about 2~weeks until the 'new' factor wore off(A record, I might add), but if they wait until November, that'll be 3 months since the August Smash Direct.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

With the datamine leak, there's a reasonable chance Bayonetta was chosen for reasons that weren't the ballot. This doesn't mean the ballot votes weren't real. It just means they weren't used as a factor. She literally is that popular. So nothing changed, just that people were led under the idea the ballot will determine a Smash 4 newcomer. What in reality it was is that the ballot could possibly help choose one or be used for future games. In other words, it's only been used for Smash Ultimate and some Mii Costumes, at least from what we can best gather.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

I stated awhile back, if Ken and Incineroar is really all we are getting in the end...how do we get to 800 music tracks?

I don’t know, but would the introduction of one or two more series like GoldenSun or Rhythm Heaven really to make THAT much of a difference?

Hell, they’re free to put in music from either of those series if they wanted to, regardless of whether or not there’s a new character.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I can't see an entire direct dedicated to Spirits mode. Let's go for a wild guess here and say Spirits is literally SSE 2. Does anyone think they could carry an entire direct purely on SSE 2 without spoiling the majority of the scenes? I mean the gameplay is pretty simple, what else would they really discuss.

The one thing I could see making Spirits take some time to discuss would be the unlocking characters method in it, IF it is different from SSE.

One thing people are forgetting is how much unannounced content there’s still left to cover besides characters. We have yet to see what’s exactly in the submenus for Online, Games and more, and Vault. The only things we’ve seen in these submenus are classic mode, training mode, smashdown, and my music.

We have yet to potentially see: anything online related, Stage builder, trophies, remaining assist trophies , break the target/target smash, multi-man smash, challenges/event match, special orders, home-run contest, how Miis are exactly going to work in ultimate vs. Smash 4, all star mode.

Some of these things might be removed or implemented very differently, but there’s a lot we still don’t know about this game, and that’s not even counting spirits mode.

 

[Luigi The President]

I don’t know, but would the introduction of one or two more series like GoldenSun or Rhythm Heaven really to make THAT much of a difference?

Hell, they’re free to put in music from either of those series if they wanted to, regardless of whether or not there’s a new character.

Rhythm Heaven?
Music?

...Bidoof c'mon buddy that wasn't the right choice. Golden Sun probably not though.

 

[Shroob]

This is a pretty big assumption to make, considering we don't know for sure what Nintendo has in store. There's Box Theory sure, but that hasn't been set in stone yet.

I'd argue this belief that only Ken and Incineroar are left is purely due to Box Theory. Without it we go back to not knowing anything, which leaves a lot of possibility. Most people were speculating on a reveal in October and then a big Smash Direct in November before this.

To be fair, I'm fine with setting your expectations low, it makes sense. You do you.

We've yet to get a Robin/Lucina type of reveal with this game, and with less than 3 months to go, I really doubt we'll get one unless it's this supposed Keniroar trailer, and the final Direct focuses on Spirits Mode+the 2nd Square rep.

I just don't see them revealing anyone outside of a Direct this time.

 

[CroonerMike]

I hate the fact we JUST got a direct and people are already crying for another one.

 

[Jdaster64]

Another thing has just crossed my mind...Music.

Sakurai has stated that there are (roughly) 800 tracks of music in the game not including menus and fanfares which would bring it up to 900 or so.

Now stages share music that is from the same franchise (Example: Princess Peach's Castle can play music from Delfino Plaza)

We only know a handful of tracks from the website, trailers and from the guys over at Gamexplain. (3 weeks ago they said roughly 183, which could be closer to 200 or so by now)

Soooo with more music on the way...If no new franchises get represented via stages or playable characters...

How are we getting to 800 tracks with what we have?

Are we about to get 30 tracks from Street Fighter for Ken?

Are we going to get 27 tracks from Pokemon for Incineroar?

Something does not add up...

Not to undermine the point, but for SF it is already confirmed we're getting at least 36 total tracks, per the 2018.8.8 Direct (though I suppose some of those might be "tempo up" versions?)

 

[AugustusB]

I don’t know, but would the introduction of one or two more series like GoldenSun or Rhythm Heaven really to make THAT much of a difference?

Hell, they’re free to put in music from either of those series if they wanted to, regardless of whether or not there’s a new character.

As true as that is, it is odd to say the least. With the franchises we have we could get all 800 from them with a bit of Retro tracks.
I will not deny that, but seems farfetched in the end.

 

[Berserker.]

https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/about/index.html

take note that if you add the number of echos (6) and the number of unique fighters (68), that should equate to 74 so idk what this number is about

EDIT: nvm

 

[SonicMario]

I stated awhile back, if Ken and Incineroar is really all we are getting in the end...how do we get to 800 music tracks?

How does 800 (900 including original tracks and/or Fanfare) music tracks exactly mean there's more then two characters left in the base game? Sakurai just let all the composers working run wild with whatever tracks they wanted to do.

I think my biggest fear right now is going to be the potential dead zone from now until November.


IF there's no Smash Direct in October, we could still be 50 days of dead zone.


After the Direct in August, it took about 2~weeks until the 'new' factor wore off(A record, I might add), but if they wait until November, that'll be 3 months since the August Smash Direct.

Doesn't the very special edition box that's spawned the box theory coming out on November 2nd? (Only providing a digital code for downloading Ultimate that doesn't work until it's out in December)

https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/about/index.html

take note that if you add the number of echos (6) and the number of unique fighters (68), that should equate to 74 so idk what this number is about

Merge Pokemon Trainer and Mii Fighters together

 

[Zinith]

https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/about/index.html

take note that if you add the number of echos (6) and the number of unique fighters (68), that should equate to 74 so idk what this number is about

It says RIGHT below that graphic "Pokemon Trainer counts as one"

 

[Shroob]

I hate the fact we JUST got a direct and people are already crying for another one.

I'm not crying for a general direct, I'm crying for a Smash one.

Because in 2 weeks, it'll have been 2 months since the August Direct more or less, and they're still pulling info that we learned from it from 2 months ago.


I'm sorry that I'm not super interested in knowing about say, the Banana Gun that we've known about 2 months now, I really want to learn about Spirits, sub-games, trophies, etc.

 

[Berserker.]

Merge Pokemon Trainer and Mii Fighters together

It says RIGHT below that graphic "Pokemon Trainer counts as one"

whoops nvm then

 

[Astroworld]

It's underwhelming to people that didn't want her in the game and wanted someone else

then every character is underwhelming

There’s plenty of people that didn’t care/want Snake, Cloud, or Ridley.

I'm not crying for a general direct, I'm crying for a Smash one.

Because in 2 weeks, it'll have been 2 months since the August Direct more or less, and they're still pulling info that we learned from it from 2 months ago.


I'm sorry that I'm not super interested in knowing about say, the Banana Gun that we've known about 2 months now, I really want to learn about Spirits, sub-games, trophies, etc.

So currently it’s only been about a month and a half since you got a ton of information in the Smash direct. And you also just got information on the console bundle and a new character last week. Don’t be so entitled.

 

[Murlough]

I think it's fair to assume he didn't do well on the ballot because... well... support for Dante was practically non-existent. People talked all sorts of characters up, but I never remember once hearing about Dante.

Yeah, I know. Just being a stickler mostly.

What about other regions though? Do we know the general consensus in other languages? Even if Dante isn't talked about much, he's a very popular and well liked character. I find it hard to believe that people don't think he could be in. Not having a vocal fanbase =/= no fanbase. Look at Shadow recently. I don't recall him being talked about much either prior to the ECHO reveal.

EDIT: I really want to fight Bayonetta as Dante in Smash all the sudden.

 

[AugustusB]

Curse work in the morning!

I would love to continue this, but keep the music tracks in mind. This could be all for naught, but still something to sleep on.

Good Morning, Good Evening and Good Night :D

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Rhythm Heaven?
Music?

...Bidoof c'mon buddy that wasn't the right choice. Golden Sun probably not though.

My second point still stands, especially with Rhythm Heaven.

There’s a crap ton of music they could pull from RH, and I don’t think the lack of a character will stop them.

 

[Luigi The President]

then every character is underwhelming

There’s plenty of people that didn’t care/want Snake, Cloud, or Ridley.

...I know it all comes down to opinions but...what kinda sick world must one live in where they don't care for or want Ridley or Cloud or most importantly, Snake?

My second point still stands, especially with Rhythm Heaven.

There’s a crap ton of music they could pull from RH, and I don’t think the lack of a character will stop them.

Not trying to dispute your second point. My point was that using RH and saying you can't pull too much music from that seems silly. I'm sure I misunderstood tho.