Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[CosmicQuark]

Or, hear me out here:


People don't like the idea of things coming to an end/ending disappointingly, so they hype themselves up, only to burn out in the end.


Brawl and Smash 4's speculation scene ended with a whimper and, "Third time's a charm", am I right?

Or, here me out here:

People like to go in with lowered expectations to avoid being disappointed, so they criticize any information that could be seen as overly-optimistic.

It works both ways. I will concede that most people in speculation hype themselves more often than they lower their expectations, but I see no hypocrisy in finding one piece of information having more reasons to support it than another. I tend to go into speculation with lowered expectations, so I consider myself one of the ones who are overly critical as I described, especially after Isabelle's reveal. But this is an interesting development, nonetheless, even if it turns out to be a misprint.

If you had told people prior to E3 that the game would feature every returning character, plus new characters, with over 100 stages, 90+ returning, nearly 900 music tracks, people would (rightly) be skeptical. While some trends may remain the same from Brawl-4-Ultimate, many have been broken so far as well.

 

[Knight Dude]

.....the day....the muuuusic died.

Bye bye, Miss American Pie!
Drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry.

....hello?

I wonder if Simon says anything about Richter and how odd their meeting is.....centuries apart.

That'd be pretty cool. Do you think Marth'll say anything to Lucina or Chrom? Or maybe ZSS to Ridley or Dark Samus?

 

[Chrono.]

There is a difference between:
- Fans analyze a portion of a boxart that may or may not be final
- Magazine outright tells us the number of stages

Both have merits and neither are ironclad, but there's more reasons to people dismissing the boxart theory beyond "lol these fools hyping themselves up."

Like the fact that these sort of analysis has turned out to mean nothing time and time again. Trophy theory, music theory, the slots on the Smash 4 website, that recent website files thing, etc etc.

 

[Shroob]

Or, here me out here:

People like to go in with lowered expectations to avoid being disappointed, so they criticize any information that could be seen as overly-optimistic.

It works both ways. I will concede that most people in speculation hype themselves more often than they lower their expectations, but I see no hypocrisy in finding one piece of information having more reasons to support it than another. I tend to go into speculation with lowered expectations, so I consider myself one of the ones who are overly critical as I described, especially after Isabelle's reveal. But this is an interesting development, nonetheless, even if it turns out to be a misprint.

If you had told people prior to E3 that the game would feature every returning character, plus new characters, with over 100 stages, 90+ returning, nearly 900 music tracks, people would (rightly) be skeptical. While some trends may remain the same from Brawl-4-Ultimate, many have been broken so far as well.

Nah, I still find this highly hypocritical.


A piece of paper that says "Hey guys, bad news..."? People lose their ****ing **** in a bad way.

A piece of paper that says "Good news everyone!" People kiss the earth it walks on, berating the other paper as 'dead'.



People 'want' to hear good things, they don't want to live in a reality where the worst case scenario is possible.

 

[Heracr055]

If there's one area I'd like to see as a stage, it's Ultra Space from the og S/M.

View attachment 164611

Looks eerie and all the Nihilegos in the background glitching out and disappearing would make for a cool visual.

Never gonna happen though, on top of that the current batch of music would never fit this stage lol. Metroid music of all things would fit this stage better.

Yes please. And add Lusamine too (there's your Pokemon villain)

 

[Flynn__]

It's funny that this '108 stages' leak happens when we have been led to believe that there's only 2 characters (Incineroar and Ken) left to be announced, neither of which would have need of a new stage.

I was a firmly '103 is the final count' believer, but I don't know why the magazine would make a mistake about this. I don't know either why would it reveal the final number before Nintendo did. So, who knows, it could go either way.

 

[Murlough]

Nah, I still find this highly hypocritical.


A piece of paper that says "Hey guys, bad news..."? People lose their ****ing **** in a bad way.

A piece of paper that says "Good news everyone!" People kiss the earth it walks on, berating the other paper as 'dead'.



People 'want' to hear good things, they don't want to live in a reality where the worst case scenario is possible.

I agree but I don't see the harm in it. Sooner or later reality will kick in. The game comes out in December. The hype will end soon enough.

Depressing crap aside, let people be hype and have something to hope for imo. I don't see the value in taking that away.

 

[Deleted member]

While this doesn't completely destroy the Box Theory, this certainly doesn't help it, either. In order for the Box Theory to still be true, Verge would have had to be right for months with 100% accuracy and no misinformation, Pokemon and Street Fighter would have to get a second stage, and either other franchises get new stages or some old ones weren't talked about at E3 and the 8.8 Direct (which had segments focused on all the old stages) for some reason.

I'm still remaining neutral on this, but to be honest, I feel this is a slight blow to the Box Theory, as it now has a considerable amount of hoops to jump through to be 100% right.

 

[Zinith]

Lol, I'm absolutely wasted, but I'll try my best to get my thoughts out as sufficiently as possible...

Okay, so everyone brings up the fact that my boi is lumped in with the Mario characters in Smash 4's CSS in order to undermine the idea that Sakurai treats his series as separate, but NO ONE ever brings up the stage select screen:

Notice where the Yoshi stages are in relation to the Mario and DK stages...

Edit: Goddammit, a broken link!!! Anyways, the Yoshi stages come AFTER the Zelda, Metroid and F-Zero stages...

 

[Chrono.]

Someone leak Shadow already so I can hype in peace.

Lol, I'm absolutely wasted, but I'll try my best to get my thoughts out as sufficiently as possible...

Okay, so everyone brings up the fact that my boi is lumped in with the Mario characters in Smash 4's CSS in order to undermine the idea that Sakurai treats his series as separate, but NO ONE ever brings up the stage select screen:

Notice where the Yoshi stages are in relation to the Mario and DK stages...

No because it's a broken image.

Go to bed Zinith, you're drunk.

 

[Zinith]

No because it's a broken image.

Go to bed Zinith, you're drunk.

Yes, I know it's a broken image. I edited my post to clarify that...

 

[Murlough]

So wait, are we now saying the Boxart thing is being harmed by the Corocoro that may not even be legit? What the heck did I miss?

 

[Nethermoosen]

That'd be pretty cool. Do you think Marth'll say anything to Lucina or Chrom? Or maybe ZSS to Ridley or Dark Samus?

The Marth thing would be cool.

History taught me that Samus should never speak.

 

[Deleted member]

October is going to be a very intense month, especially because odds seem likely for a reveal of some sort IMO.

As others have said, regardless with what happens with this theory stuff, let's be civil towards one another. People have the right to support what theories they like and at the end of the day, it is just a video game.

 

[Mutsukki]

lmao 108 stages
Box Theory was very sound but 5 new stages just made me lose my **** and now I don’t know anything anymore what is this even

this has been a ****ing wild ride I’ll forever remember Smash Ultimate speculation days

 

[Nethermoosen]

So wait, are we now saying the Boxart thing is being harmed by the Corocoro that may not even be legit? What the heck did I miss?

You missed nothing. Coro Coro leak is still probably just a type-o.

 

[Deleted member]

You missed nothing. Coro Coro leak is still probably just a type-o.

Why would it be a typo? Coro Coro is pretty accurate with its info.

 

[Arcanir]

To continue my tin foil hat theory, what do you guys think about other Spirit/Boss arenas getting the Castlevania treatment? It could explain why some of the stages haven't been shown yet since the mode is still under wraps, and you could argue part of the work is already done since it is an interactable level that has already gone through things like licensing and updating. So it is possible they could take that work and use it for a playable stage version in the same fashion as Dracula's to lighten the load, and then once you're ready to reveal everything give those final few out as a nice little extra treat.

Nah, I still find this highly hypocritical.


A piece of paper that says "Hey guys, bad news..."? People lose their ****ing **** in a bad way.

A piece of paper that says "Good news everyone!" People kiss the earth it walks on, berating the other paper as 'dead'.



People 'want' to hear good things, they don't want to live in a reality where the worst case scenario is possible.

My stance on it is to keep both in mind. We can't pick and choose what we think is correct and one is more positive then the other in terms of its implications, but it doesn't change the fact that both possibly lend themselves to suggesting different things that are worthwhile in speculating about. Both have their place in the speculation period, and due to that we should consider both whether we agree with them or not.

If there's one area I'd like to see as a stage, it's Ultra Space from the og S/M.

View attachment 164611

Looks eerie and all the Nihilegos in the background glitching out and disappearing would make for a cool visual.

Never gonna happen though, on top of that the current batch of music would never fit this stage lol. Metroid music of all things would fit this stage better.

I would really love to see this, Ultra Space had a really nice feel to it even though it was underused in SM itself and it would be a nice way to get a nod to Lusamine's form.

 

[Mutsukki]

Why would it be a typo? Coro Coro is pretty accurate with its info.

I guess a 3 is almost an 8 and perhaps someone looking at it very fast didn’t notice. But that would have been the most juvenile mistake ever

 

[Shroob]

Why would it be a typo? Coro Coro is pretty accurate with its info.

Well for starters, the entirety of its contents focus only on the 8,8 Direct, but when it gets to the stage portion, it says 108.


I believe there's 108 stages, but there's no goddamn reason for it to do so here when everything prior and past this point focuses exclusively on the 8.8 Direct.

 

[ThatOneAnon]

I have no ****ing clue what’s happening anymore.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

To continue my tin foil hat theory, what do you guys think about other Spirit/Boss arenas getting the Castlevania treatment? It could explain why some of the stages haven't been shown yet since the mode is still under wraps, and you could argue part of the work is already done since it is an interactable level that has already gone through things like licensing and updating. So it is possible they could take that work and use it for a playable stage version in the same fashion as Dracula's to lighten the load, and then once you're ready to reveal everything give those final few out as a nice little extra treat.

Hmmm good point. Maybe one of the five stages is a Kirby stage since Marx is rumored to be a boss.

 

[Staarih]

Yesterday I hear about a "box theory" and now I hear 108 stages are confirmed... and I thought nothing happens on weekends lol.

Then again, I never thought 103 would be the final count if only for the fact that we don't have a S/M stage yet. We get a BotW and Odyssey one, but not Sun/Moon?

 

[CosmicQuark]

Nah, I still find this highly hypocritical.


A piece of paper that says "Hey guys, bad news..."? People lose their ****ing **** in a bad way.

A piece of paper that says "Good news everyone!" People kiss the earth it walks on, berating the other paper as 'dead'.



People 'want' to hear good things, they don't want to live in a reality where the worst case scenario is possible.

People do want to hear good things, and that is where confirmation bias comes in--but it does work the other way around, as I've been susceptible of considering the worst case scenario far too often.

Prior to E3, I was worried we would get cuts and that there wouldn't be that many characters I could get hyped for, I was *hoping* we would get a port of 4 as the best case scenario. Boy, was I wrong. Similarly with the August Direct, I thought if they were revealing news this early, at most I could expect 1 new character, few returning stages and some new ones, and some items/modes. Boy, was I wrong. The Nintendo Direct, I lowered my expectations, thinking we would get a first party newcomer, at worst without a new stage (Skull Kid), at best a character with a new stage (Isaac). It was actually worse than I expected, it was a character I had thought would only get in as an echo, limiting the rest of the potential newcomers, and no new stage.

It still could end on a whimper, and I'm preparing for that, as most of us probably should. But hypocritical would be if the two claims had the same amount of reasons to support it, yet one people loved, and the other people hated. I'd love to hear all the reasons why the "box theory" could be true (while lurking, there was very few), because everything seems odd--it's placeholder art implied by the negative space, strange discontinuities in the order, and the most damning: when a supposed pattern breaks at some point, your first thought shouldn't be: KEN! Your first thought should be "Maybe there isn't a pattern".

I agree but I don't see the harm in it. Sooner or later reality will kick in. The game comes out in December. The hype will end soon enough.

Depressing crap aside, let people be hype and have something to hope for imo. I don't see the value in taking that away.

While I agree there's no harm in people getting hyped over the CoroCoro news, it's still good to remind ourselves that it may be a misprint. Too much hype can lead to disappointment. Too much negativity could make speculation dull. It's good to have a balanced mindset when speculating.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Why would it be a typo? Coro Coro is pretty accurate with its info.

Why do type-o’s ever happen? It would be an accident that was overlooked.

It’s showing stuff from the August direct which announced 103.

It COULD be legit, but I’m regarding it as a mistake until:
A. Corocoro or Nintendo says it’s false. Then darn it to heck. That ****ing sucks.

Or

B. No one says anything and my hope rises until it’s confirmed.

I will not be biased towards an outcome. Either I get evidence or I will remain patient and neutral.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I'll recount the stages again. I'll count this Tuesday's Music Update since it's very likely what series it'll be from.

Alright so there are 11 weeks left for music(after September 18th).

The remaining series yet to have a sample:

Star Fox
Pokemon
Earthbound
Ice Climbers
Game & Watch
Kid Icarus
Wario
Sonic
R.O.B
Wii Fit
Punch Out
Miis
Xenoblade
Duck Hunt
Final Fantasy
Bayonetta

16 left. However Final Fantasy and Bayonnetta probably aren't getting a sample based on song count, group the retros together, and the fact that Snipperclips might be used in Wii Fit Studios or a Mii Stage. And I don't think Punch Out will get a sample. Then there are around 9 current series left to get a sample leaving 2 new possible IPs before release.

From the Direct we know that Bayonetta, Final Fantasy, Game & Watch and Ice Climbers lack any new arrangment (which is what is put on the website). We also know that Wii Fit, Duck Hunt, Animal Crossing and Pokémon all have new remixes, so they are most likely a lock. If we also exlude R.O.B. and Mii since they aren't actual series inside Smash (R.O.B. lacks a stage, Mii's game are all represented by themself rather than a single series, like we have Find Mii and Wuhu Island as separated series etc etc), then the final list would be:

Star Fox
Pokemon
Earthbound
Kid Icarus
Wario
Sonic
Wii Fit
Punch Out
Pac-Man (we don't know if the Galaga medley counts for it)
Xenoblade
Duck Hunt

11 series for 11 weeks left.

 

[Dandelionel]

People in gamefaqs are saying that 108 has a lot of cultural significance in Japan and that is why is true but wouldn't it be weird to force the number of stages to a special number? Idk this reminds me of the "Zelda is based upon LBW" when in reality she was based on a Link to the past.

 

[Shroob]

People do want to hear good things, and that is where confirmation bias comes in--but it does work the other way around, as I've been susceptible of considering the worst case scenario far too often.

Prior to E3, I was worried we would get cuts and that there wouldn't be that many characters I could get hyped for, I was *hoping* we would get a port of 4 as the best case scenario. Boy, was I wrong. Similarly with the August Direct, I thought if they were revealing news this early, at most I could expect 1 new character, few returning stages and some new ones, and some items/modes. Boy, was I wrong. The Nintendo Direct, I lowered my expectations, thinking we would get a first party newcomer, at worst without a new stage (Skull Kid), at best a character with a new stage (Isaac). It was actually worse than I expected, it was a character I had thought would only get in as an echo, limiting the rest of the potential newcomers, and no new stage.

It still could end on a whimper, and I'm preparing for that, as most of us probably should. But hypocritical would be if the two claims had the same amount of reasons to support it, yet one people loved, and the other people hated. I'd love to hear all the reasons why the "box theory" could be true (while lurking, there was very few), because everything seems odd--it's placeholder art implied by the negative space, strange discontinuities in the order, and the most damning: when a supposed pattern breaks at some point, your first thought shouldn't be: KEN! Your first thought should be "Maybe there isn't a pattern".



While I agree there's no harm in people getting hyped over the CoroCoro news, it's still good to remind ourselves that it may be a misprint. Too much hype can lead to disappointment. Too much negativity could make speculation dull. It's good to have a balanced mindset when speculating.

The box theory, for what its worth, does indeed have a pattern as others have said.

It groups characters in bunches of 9 and then goes on to the next group. There are 0 flaws in that logic as people have made designs that show it.


The only time this pattern breaks is Palutena-Corrin, where Ryu is located, and Vergeben, arguably our most accurrate leaker to date, has said Ken's in as a Ryu Echo.


Putting 2 and 2 together from there isn't hard.

 

[Deleted member]

Well for starters, the entirety of its contents focus only on the 8,8 Direct, but when it gets to the stage portion, it says 108.


I believe there's 108 stages, but there's no goddamn reason for it to do so here when everything prior and past this point focuses exclusively on the 8.8 Direct.

Coro Coro is an official magazine that features all kinds of Nintendo info, and is pretty much the number 1 spot for Pokemon news.

Outright dismissing this feels reminiscent to people who claimed dismissing the box theory were wrong. As I previously said, I don't believe this entirely dismisses Box Theory, but it doesn't help it either. It adds a lot more hoop jumping to make it all work. It's still possible, but the chances have gone down in my eyes.

 

[Mutsukki]

People in gamefaqs are saying that 108 has a lot of cultural significance in Japan and that is why is true but wouldn't it be weird to force the number of stages to a special number? Idk this reminds me of the "Zelda is based upon LBW" when in reality she was based on a Link to the past.

Not really, Sakurai does whatever he wants. Death Note ended exactly with 108 chapters, if Sakurai saw the number and thought he could make it exactly 108 for it to have some sort of significance then he can

 

[Shroob]

Coro Coro is an official magazine that features all kinds of Nintendo info, and is pretty much the number 1 spot for Pokemon news.

Outright dismissing this feels reminiscent to people who claimed dismissing the box theory were wrong. As I previously said, I don't believe this entirely dismisses Box Theory, but it doesn't help it either. It adds a lot more hoop jumping to make it all work. It's still possible, but the chances have gone down in my eyes.

[I'm not dismissing this, but this is akin to someone coming up to you, telling you the weather, and then adding on "Oh btw, I killed your dog"


It's completely out of place and shocking when nothing else in the entire segment is new information.


Push has gone through the entire article and "108" is the ONLY new thing brought up, everything else is from 8.8

 

[Michael the Spikester]

How many stages do you guys think we'll get as DLC on the other hand?

 

[Nethermoosen]

How many stages do you guys think we'll get as DLC on the other hand?

A bucket of chicken(20)

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Boy. What will be the next debate we come across?

 

[Icedragonadam]

I don't know if this adds in any evidence but on the Smash Site in the Stages section, there's 5 spots in the center bottom that can be filled behind the button that leads to the blog.

 

[Ridrool64]

DLC is probably going to have most of the new stages. I imagine around 10, for every new series.

I think Planet Zebes and Sector Z are the only DLC returning stages, everything else is too much of a workload.

Who wants to talk about Assist Trophies? I know they have mediocre rapport lately, but still.

 

[Shroob]

I don't know if this adds in any evidence but on the Smash Site in the Stages section, there's 5 spots in the center bottom that can be filled behind the button that leads to the blog.

The website should NEVER be used to determine ****.

It changes depending on your monitor's resolution.

 

[Deleted member]

[I'm not dismissing this, but this is akin to someone coming up to you, telling you the weather, and then adding on "Oh btw, I killed your dog"


It's completely out of place and shocking when nothing else in the entire segment is new information.


Push has gone through the entire article and "108" is the ONLY new thing brought up, everything else is from 8.8

If we're willing to believe the Box Theory was a slip-up, why couldn't we assume this to be a similar scenario? I'm not saying it is, but it's just as possible as anything from the Box Theory, which is all riding on speculation and theoretical patterns rather than hard, irrefutable evidence. To me, it's no more factual than the Music Theory.

Woof, it's late. I'mma go to sleep now...

 

[KMDP]

we don't have a S/M stage yet.

What are you talking about? We already have Umbra Clock Tower!

 

[papagenos]

if you're a pessimist believe the box theory.

if you're an optimist believe 108 stages kills it.

There, now everyone who wants more characters and to continue speculating gets to and everyone who wants to believe we are at the end and lose hope for any more unknown characters can too.

Truly this is the Ultimate smash speculation.