Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

Sooo, what do we expect to happen? There's a new Smash Direct he goes over the new mode, detours to show randomly Ken as an echo, and then announce Inceneroar with a trailer? That doesn't make much sense. Smash has always had a clear cut way of segmenting stuff and making it make sense. Throwing out one last echo and then Inceneroar doesn't match that.

Call me crazy but Sakurai always had a clear way of announcing things in this game and when he said, we can talk about this mode later, I think he meant to look forward to the next Smash Direct. If we get one of those I think it'll have more than just Ken and Inceneroar, even if it's just one more echo I think 2 is not all that's left. I think there is at least one more. Besides Inceneroar and Ken.

This is what I'm expecting.

It starts off with Little Mac on the boxing stage only for Incineroar to appear and either kill him or dispatched him (Like K. Rool did with Dedede) and then Ken appears and the two fights. If you really think about it. It really fits being all three are based on fighting. Little Mac being a boxer, Incineroar a wrestler and Ken an street fighter.

 

[Shroob]

Sooo, what do we expect to happen? There's a new Smash Direct he goes over the new mode, detours to show randomly Ken as an echo, and then announce Inceneroar with a trailer? That doesn't make much sense. Smash has always had a clear cut way of segmenting stuff and making it make sense. Throwing out one last echo and then Inceneroar doesn't match that.

Call me crazy but Sakurai always had a clear way of announcing things in this game and when he said, we can talk about this mode later, I think he meant to look forward to the next Smash Direct. If we get one of those I think it'll have more than just Ken and Inceneroar, even if it's just one more echo I think 2 is not all that's left. I think there is at least one more. Besides Inceneroar and Ken.

There could be, but there also couldn't be.


Until the next direct, this box is all we have.


It's a mockup, yep.


But Vergeben has yet to be wrong, and this really lines up with 103 being the final stage count AND music theory.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I feel like I should just repost the twitter thread that Swamp Sensei linked to, and the mockup I made in roster maker.

Honestly folks, I'm not trying to be the douche who is saying, "I'm smarter than you, listen to me." I'm saying this because the "resizing" doesn't make much sense, and neither does the "they could put them on the back". This is literally on par with "Shulk is Little Mac" loops we're jumping through.

Take a deep breath. That's maybe all I can recommend right now.

 

[Luigi The President]

Damn y'all just really took Geno and Shadow out to the back behind the shed and shot them huh
Don't tell me you guys think they would've spoiled "2 more characters left" like this

 

[Shroob]

I call it July 14, 2014.


They're Echoes, and they're veterans. What's wrong with that?

And.....we've yet to have a single character revealed outside of a Direct.


Possible? Yes.

But I'm not counting on it this time.

 

[MargnetMan23]

Incineroar is weird to me because I absolutely adore cats irl but Incineroar just... doesn't do anything for anything for me. Litten's design appeals to me wayyyy more than its evolutions rip.

So this is just a question, hope it doesn’t sound dumb. But why are characters like Luigi, young link, and Falco not considered clones?

Luigi probably isn't considered a clone because most of his moves are different from Mario's. Even the ones that are similar generally have quite different properties.

I'd call Young Link a clone, but since the original Link has changed so much since Melee Young Link's actually weirdly more unique now. Also Young Link's physical attributes like weight and stuff are quite different from Link.

Falco was def a clone in Melee, but he's changed a lot since then. I mean, ok his up b and side b are basically the same, but outside of that they have different stats and different moves.

 

[Chrono.]

GameXplain got in on it.

 

[Chandeelure]

Yeah, I will not believe that box theory lol.

But, eh, who cares, DLC is almost obvious anyways.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd value theories that go against the box theory...


If they actually read the thread I posted.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Wait, so if there's 36 on both sides, then there should be 4 empty slots if we include Isabelle in the mockup.

Meaning that Square Enix rep. from Vergeben is still in the running (and he only seemed to doubt the name anyway).

edit: nvm forgot echoes.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

They're Echoes, and they're veterans. What's wrong with that?

Eh, i guess nothing.

Damn y'all just really took Geno and Shadow out to the back behind the shed and shot them huh
Don't tell me you guys think they would've spoiled "2 more characters left" like this

We just need something to talk about since the Direct's reveal wasn't a big shocker and everyone's bored now.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

GameXplain got in on it.

So did Source Gaming

 

[Will]

Take a deep breath. That's maybe all I can recommend right now.

How can I breathe when this thread is suffocating me in tinfoil?

 

[Starbound]

There's room for 36 characters on each side of the box
36 * 2 = 72
There are currently 68 characters including Isabelle
Therefore we have 4 newcomers left

There aren't currently 68 characters as you're missing echo fighters.

We have 74 characters right now.

But 4 of those characters are sharing a box on the...box (the Miis and Pokemon Trainer), so that covers 70 boxes.

 

[AlphaSSB]

I'm honestly torn.

On one hand, the box art could easily be subject to change. A mock-up made for the time being. Not to mention that there could easily be the last few characters on the back. I'd suggest the original eight, but Dark Samus kinda messes that up. She'd have to be listed before Luigi unless they wanted to keep her next to Samus, which seems unlikely.

On the other hand, one last newcomer and an 'Echo' clone definitely seems possible. Granted, Ken and Incineroar aren't guaranteed to be the last two, but things do look to be in their favor. Incineroar is a new Pokemon with strong concept art and prominence in the show. For Ken, the characters being listed in groups of nine definitely suggests there's an 'Echo' clone somewhere between Palutena and Cloud, and he seems pretty likely. Not to mention the rumors surrounding both, plus the fact that they can be paired in a trailer together easily. Just have Incineroar fighting Ryu, who then tags out and swaps with Ken.

Sakurai did say not to expect too many newcomers... Not counting 'Echo' clones, Incineroar would leave us with six. Counting 'Echo' clones, that leaves us with eleven. Still not a lot either way you look at it.

 

[Luigi The President]

I guess it's just not clicking why Incineroar would be the only newcomer remaining when we've got picks like Bandana Dee, Isaac, Paper Mario, Geno, Skull Kid, all out there.
I guess that's my own opinion and problem though. Thing is, I love Incineroar. It's just not adding up in my mind.

 

[Misery Brick]

The box art itself doesn't have Isabelle.

Mii Fighters are one icon, counting for one instead of 3. Pokemon Trainer is one icon, counting for one instead of 3.

If Ken gets paired with Ryu, just like every other Echo Fighter is, and Incineroar is after Isabelle, that makes for 72 fighters, and both blank spots in the placeholder filled.

History is repeating itself.

Then what about the supposed Square Enix character? If you're leaning on Incineroar and Ken, you still have to acknowledge the other claim Verge has made.
Not to mention that he never stated the max amount of entrants this game.
What I'm saying is, coming from someone who's been around for multiple fighting game and Smash iterations of speculation. A marketing team isn't going to help people hone in on who's making it in the roster. Hell, Sakurai showed the mural being edited and shifted around and the same goes for box art, especially since they are using renders and material from Nintendo.
It's quite literally a mock up.
This is literally falling for some flimsy promotional material conspiracy.
It honestly reminds me of people flipping out about MvC:I and Spidey's inclusion because he wasn't included on the boxart.

I honestly can't subscribe to this theory.

 

[Sølid]

In all honesty, I wouldn't in the least bit be surprised if what is shown on that boxart is exactly what ships. Two empty spots next to K. Rool. They gave out official posters for preorders in Japan without characters post-E3. It may not be exactly the same but it is the closest example of them not taking the whole roster into consideration for a product.

 

[Arcadenik]

If Ken and Macho Man Randy Savage are really all we're getting, Geno better be the first dlc character revealed.
With that being said, I have a hard time buying we're only getting one more unique character.

I mean, Sakurai did say not to expect too many newcomers.

Newcomers

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. Isabelle
6. Incineroar

Echo Fighters (added to buff the number of newcomers)

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. Ken

 

[Wyoming]

Box art theory:

Kind of don't see Sakurai allowing to spoil the remaining amount of newcomers left via a bundle box art.

Two newcomers to reveal in nearly 3 months (remember Isabelle was meant to be revealed a week earlier) is not a whole lot. But if Ken and Incineroar are the two and they are unique, that would mean 6 unique newcomers added. Considering we only got four brand new stages, that doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

Resizing the images? There's some empty spaces between the rows, but highly unlikely they will alter that. They want the renders to pop.

Of course, Ken and Incineroar might be the last two for base roster, but that doesn't mean they aren't planning early DLC already too. Mewtwo was revealed before the game launched on Wii U (after 3DS though). Not to mention the stage select screen has six empty spots already revealed - those could be updates after the game launches. This would tie-in nicely with newcomers.

I think it points towards two additions for base roster, but DLC is probably already in draft/planning at this point that we could get more in late spring 2019 imo.

 

[Luigi The President]

Then what about the supposed Square Enix character? If you're leaning on Incineroar and Ken, you still have to acknowledge the other claim Verge has made.
Not to mention that he never stated the max amount of entrants this game.
What I'm saying is, coming from someone who's been around for multiple fighthing game and Smash iterations of speculation. A marketing team isn't going to help people hone in on who's making it in the roster. Hell, Sakurai showed the mural being edited and shifted around and the same goes for box art, especially since they are using renders and material from Nintendo.
It's quite literally a mock up.
This is literally falling for some flimsy promotional material conspiracy.
It honestly reminds me of people flipping out about MvC:I and Spidey's inclusion because he wasn't included on the boxart.

I honestly can't subscribe to this.

The first point is one of my biggest issues I have with this whole theory.
We're throwing in Incineroar and Ken due to Vergeben. Don't act like most people expected Incineroar in a playable capacity before Vergeben.
So what about his Squenix rep?

 

[Will]

I will never believe the box theory. Can I believe that we'll only have two newcomers left to show? Yeah, it's possible, but so is any given number that isn't too extreme. You'll have to get me hammered that looking at a ****ing box is gonna tell me the roster size months before release with stuff to still show.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Dunno. I feel like I could just as easy say that it's more likely that we get a good 70 characters rather than a 69th and an echo. Just doesn't seem right. I think there is more likely to be 70 characters. Why? It just seems very Sakurai. 70 characters is the base number I think. I think it's more likely than not, personally.

 

[The DanMan051]

Sooo, what do we expect to happen? There's a new Smash Direct he goes over the new mode, detours to show randomly Ken as an echo, and then announce Inceneroar with a trailer? That doesn't make much sense. Smash has always had a clear cut way of segmenting stuff and making it make sense. Throwing out one last echo and then Inceneroar doesn't match that.

Call me crazy but Sakurai always had a clear way of announcing things in this game and when he said, we can talk about this mode later, I think he meant to look forward to the next Smash Direct. If we get one of those I think it'll have more than just Ken and Inceneroar, even if it's just one more echo I think 2 is not all that's left. I think there is at least one more. Besides Inceneroar and Ken.

Ken probably got the Isabelle treatment; they may both have been planned as Echoes but got upgraded to semi-clones. Meaning Ken would get a full trailer and the fanfare of a unique newcomer.

Ken, Incineroar, and a crapload of gamemode news and stuff doesn't sound impossible-- it's not like Smash 4's final reveals were anything mindblowing (Shulk before 3DS and then Duck Hunt getting the last trailer uploaded).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Meh, I wouldn't put any stock on the box theory when it's obvious that DLC will be coming at some point.

Incineroar is weird to me because I absolutely adore cats irl but Incineroar just... doesn't do anything for anything for me. Litten's design appeals to me wayyyy more than its evolutions rip.

But what if Sakurai does something wacky and has a trainer with Litten, Dartrix (or Rowlet) and Primarina? Wouldn't put it past him.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

I mean, Sakurai did say not to expect too many newcomers.

He also said that during the SSB4 development and yet we got like 20 characters
"Sakurai was also quoted as claiming that the new game was unlikely to emphasize new playable characters, focusing instead on gameplay balance and distinctiveness of its characters. "
Source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._4#Development

I'm thinking we have 4 new characters in total left to be in, 2 newcomers and 2 echoes.

 

[Starbound]

Also food for thought...

Assuming Ken and Incineroar is the end of the roster, that means Smash Ultimate will have added 18 more characters than the last game had.

I don't think you guys realize how big of a number that is.

Melee added 14 (12 to 26). Brawl added 13 (26 to 39). Smash 4 added 12 (39 to 51) and then another 7 (51 to 58, totals to 19).

We have an additional 18 fighters without DLC.

And with DLC... we'll probably hit like 25 more characters than Smash 4 had.

That just blows my mind.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So... do most of us agree that the final Unique character is A Gen 7 Pokemon? and If so, Which One?
I'm still betting on Incineroar...

 

[Rie Sonomura]

In that case...guess it's time to start listing your "didn't make it" character graveyard.

For me... R.I.P. Elma, Waddle Dee, Chorus Kids, Black Shadow, Lloyd, Neku, Fiora who's in Shulk's FS anyways...

most of my others could easily become DLC, but I feel like for my first 4, it was base or bust...

In memoriam, I guess

 

[Schnee117]

Dunno. I feel like I could just as easy say that it's more likely that we get a good 70 characters rather than a 69th and an echo. Just doesn't seem right. I think there is more likely to be 70 characters. Why? It just seems very Sakurai. 70 characters is the base number I think. I think it's more likely than not, personally.

Brawl has 39 characters though so it's not unprecedented to have an odd number of fighters like that

 

[papagenos]

So did Source Gaming

Well if this was true AND vergebens true.

it would likely be Ken and Geno for the final 2. With a gen7 pokemon maybe as DLC? cause he seems unsure of who it is like it hasnt been decided yet or something?

I dont believe this theory but there ya go.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Alright, here’s how all this adds up.

Vergeben Theory: 6 UNIQUE fighters after Ridley. We have seen 3. K. Rool, Simon, Isabelle. We still have 3 more to go. If this is true, then Box Theory and Smashdown Theory are wrong and Ken is unique.

If Box Theory is right, so is Smashdown Theory, but Vergeben will have been wrong.

If Smashdown Theory is right AND Vergeben is right, then we must have exactly 14 more fighters and at least 3 must be unique.

Vergeben and Box Theory clash.

papagenos

 

[Chandeelure]

Didn't Vergeben already "leak" more than 2 characters? lol

Pokemon rep, Ken and SE rep?

 

[ZephyrZ]

If this theory does turn out to be true, then I feel really bad for Incineroar and Ken fans. I was a silent Dark Pit supporter in Smash 4 and he got to be everyone's scapegoat as he got to be game's the secret character. Granted they aren't fully comparable to Pittoo since one will be a unique Pokemon and the other is a gaming legend, but they'll both get scapegoated a lot - especially the already controversial Incineroar - for the game's lack of newcomers. I'm fully prepared for this though, as I believed Sakurai's "don't expect too many newcomers" statement from the start.

That said, I could see this going either way. Maybe Incineroar will be our last unique character, but maybe we'll get an extra surprise or two. Either way I'm not expecting much.

Ken probably got the Isabelle treatment; they may both have been planned as Echoes but got upgraded to semi-clones. Meaning Ken would get a full trailer and the fanfare of a unique newcomer.

Ken, Incineroar, and a crapload of gamemode news and stuff doesn't sound impossible-- it's not like Smash 4's final reveals were anything mindblowing (Shulk before 3DS and then Duck Hunt getting the last trailer uploaded).

Isabelle has so little in common with Villager that I actually really doubt she was originally an echo. They probably planned on making her mostly unique from the start.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm in the same boat to say Incineroar being VergeBen has been right with most of his leaks and according to them its one that isn't Decidueye and Lyanroc which Incineroar fits the bill.

 

[UberMadman]

There genuinely could be some characters that make it onto the back of the box or something along those lines, but the thing that depresses me most is that whether or not there are more fighters, the spacing and placement of the fighters seems to kind of deconfirm both Shadow and Dixie no matter how you slice it, (at least as echoes,) which stinks considering Shadow was my most wanted echo. At least Ken seems all but confirmed at this point.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Well if this was true AND vergebens true.

it would likely be Ken and Geno for the final 2.

I dont believe this theory but there ya go.

Didn't verge also mention a Gen 7 Pokemon?

 

[drag0nscythe]

Only weirdos will stack echoes.

I plan to stack echos.
You saying you have no faith in goemon?

 

[Luigi The President]

Didn't Vergeben already "leak" more than 2 characters? lol

Pokemon rep, Ken and SE rep?

Yep. Seems people have collectively chosen to forget this.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

R.I.P. Banjo-Kazooie, Black Shadow and Medusa...