Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Ramen Tengoku]

In my eyes, A character Isn't Retro until they haven't been relevant in 15 years (So, Isaac is not quite there yet...)

 

[Originality]

In my eyes, A character Isn't Retro until they haven't been relevant in 15 years (So, Isaac is not quite there yet...)

But, does that mean once they're in smash, and thus relevant, they aren't retro anymore?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

This take is PIPING hot considering Fox was already a pretty good character in Smash 4 (arguably top 10, possibly top 15?), and when you factor in what the universal mechanics changes do for his kit as a baseline, it's hard to imagine him falling off that hard. I haven't heard of any drastic changes to his frame data or anything from dedicated players like Larry Lurr. The inability to pass through characters + Fox Illusion not crossing up people on shield isn't the worst thing they could have done.

Smooth Criminal

Fox in Smash 4 wasn't just "possibly top 15", he was indisputably top tier in the top 10 and has a strong argument for top 5, it would take some really huge nerfs to knock Fox out of viability, and from what I seen Larry and other Fox players say, the nerfs to Fox have been greatly exaggerated. Though people tend to greatly overreact to nerfs in general (if you thought the initial reaction to Ultimate Fox was bad, see how the bulk of the Sonic players reacted to the Sonic nerfs found), and you won't get an accurate view of how the nerfs actually affect the character until some time down the line (or sometimes not even then, as in the case of Greninja).

 

[Misery Brick]

I personally think Ayumi might actually have a chance to get into this game this time around. A very slim chance but a chance nonetheless.

Like I know Sakurai isn't keen on adding characters that aren't recognized globally, but that didn't stop him with Marth and Roy back in Melee, and Lucas in Brawl. So it's not like he hasn't broken that rule before.
Also, there is the fact he is reutilizing scrapped concepts from previous games.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

But, does that mean once they're in smash, and thus relevant, they aren't retro anymore?

No... It's just that they were chosen because of their then retro status

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I personally think Ayumi might actually has a chance to get into this game this time around. A very slim chance but a chance nonetheless.

Like I know Sakurai isn't keen on adding characters that aren't recognized globally, but that didn't stop him with Marth and Roy back in Melee, and Lucas in Brawl. So it's not like he hasn't broken that rule before.
Also, there's is the fact he is reutilizing scrapped concepts from previous games.

Who dat?

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Who dat?

She was the main character of a Japanese only detective game

 

[MojoRobo]

Who dat?

Ayumi Tachibana, one of the protagonists of an obscure murder mystery visual novel on the Famicom called Famicom Detective Club. She was considered for Melee and has a trophy in the game.

 

[osby]

I personally think Ayumi might actually have a chance to get into this game this time around. A very slim chance but a chance nonetheless.

Like I know Sakurai isn't keen on adding characters that aren't recognized globally, but that didn't stop him with Marth and Roy back in Melee, and Lucas in Brawl. So it's not like he hasn't broken that rule before.
Also, there's is the fact he is reutilizing scrapped concepts from previous games.

Melee was before Smash became really global and Lucas was supposed to be in a game that released wordlwide.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Alright lets try again then considering the trend for Pokemon and 1st party retro fighters. Which retro do you guys think is the most likely?

-Ayumi Tachibana
-Balloon Fighter
-Bubbles
-Lip
-Mach Rider
-Sable Prince
-Sheriff
-Other

 

[Meritocracy]

Fox in Smash 4 wasn't just "possibly top 15", he was indisputably top tier in the top 10 and has a strong argument for top 5, it would take some really huge nerfs to knock Fox out of viability, and from what I seen Larry and other Fox players say, the nerfs to Fox have been greatly exaggerated. Though people tend to greatly overreact to nerfs in general (if you thought the initial reaction to Ultimate Fox was bad, see how many of the Sonic players reacted to the Sonic nerfs found), and you won't get an accurate view of how the nerfs actually affect the character until some time down the line (or sometimes not even then, as in the case of Greninja).

Unlike Sonic, who with just a few poorly balanced nerds could and was most likely knocked WAY out of orbit as far as tier lists go.
(I used Sonic as an example as people often debated him vs fox in the tier list back in 4)

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I'm hoping that Bomberman doesn't just disappear after this. I know I'm just one person but I bought R at launch just to support the series even though it was pretty lackluster then . I'm hoping that the next one has more options though. Even with the dlc, I feel that this one is a little lighter compared to some of the older games

I actually don't have too much experience with the core Bomberman games outside of R, but I will agree from what I've played of R it isn't the best, lol. I'm right there with you hoping the next one is better; Bomberman has so much potential to be a really fun series again!

I think the biggest problem I had with R was the AI. Computers were pretty much gods no matter what level you left them on, and as someone who likes playing against AI in games like this, that was an unfortunate turn off for me when it came to trying to dig into it.

 

[MojoRobo]

I was looking through my files and found this picture I saved way back during pre-release Smash 4 speculation from 4chan. I think this is supposed to be a Fatal Frame character? Iunno but it's a cute idea nonetheless.

 

[PK Bash]

Here's a question: What are some characters you guys feel are likelier than the community as a whole seems to think? Obviously this means no Skull Kids/Isabelles/Isaacs/Genos/etc etc.

Leon S. Kennedy, drawing mainly from his Resi 4 appearance, is a pretty obvious character choice imo that nobody here seems to talk about. He's really a no-brainer.
Resi 4 is Resi 4, which everyone remembers on the GameCube of course, Resident Evil in general is very much a big deal, and even if you remove Leon's realistic guns his moveset still writes itself.
He's surely going to see a playable appearance in Smash one day.
--

Professor Layton is not a particularly popular pick among Americans, but the simple fact is that he was indeed a notable success in the US and absolutely huge everywhere else in the world (particularly Europe and Japan) to the point where in Europe at least, he was being marketed with the big boys like Mario and Pokemon.

He's been quietly a pretty popular pick for years now, and rightly so - there's really no reason at all why we couldn't see him in Smash.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Alright lets try again then considering the trend for Pokemon and 1st party retro fighters. Which retro do you guys think is the most likely?

-Ayumi Tachibana
-Balloon Fighter
-Bubbles
-Lip
-Mach Rider
-Sable Prince
-Sheriff

Sheriff
Isn't he Nintendo's first video game character?

 

[Idon]

View attachment 162847
I was looking through my files and found this picture I saved way back during Smash 4 speculation from 4chan. I think this is supposed to be a Fatal Frame character? Iunno but it's a cute idea nonetheless.

Somebody @ the resident fatal frame guy.
Though if I had to guess, he already has it saved.

 

[LetterO]

Alright lets try again then considering the trend for Pokemon and 1st party retro fighters. Which retro do you guys think is the most likely?

-Ayumi Tachibana
-Balloon Fighter
-Bubbles
-Lip
-Mach Rider
-Sable Prince
-Sheriff

I think someone like 9-Volt would be a good retro character, and a special case. 9-Volt wouldn't be retro himself, but his moveset would utilize things such as Hanafuda cards and old Nintendo toys like the Ultra Hand. Also another WarioWare rep so that's nice.

 

[P.Kat]

Possible Retro Fighters.

-Ayumi Tachibana
-Balloon Fighter
-Bubbles
-Excitebiker
-Lip
-Mach Rider
-Sable Prince
-Sheirff

Ayumi I think maybe the most likely being she was considered for Melee.

I think Valkyrie would be a great retro, especially if they allowed her to grow bigger mid game, like a Super Mushroom buff with just enough time to do one attack or three. They would never allow that outside of a Final Smash, but the look on your opponent's face as you suddenly grew too big for them to handle would be hilarious

I still really want a character who fights like a total non-fighter. Like how Phoenix Wright was in MvC3 or Celica in Blazblue. Ayumi would fit that really well.

Jubei is my favorite, but I would welcome Celica in Smash especially if it meant getting some Blazblue music. Celica's in particular was amazing.

Here's a question: What are some characters you guys feel are likelier than the community as a whole seems to think? Obviously this means no Skull Kids/Isabelles/Isaacs/Genos/etc etc.

Amaterasu, because of Okami's unique one of a kind art style, it's multiple appearance on Nintendo consoles, being on the Wii, DS, and currently now the Switch, and overall continuously returning to nearly every game console, in every generation since it release.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I personally think Ayumi might actually have a chance to get into this game this time around. A very slim chance but a chance nonetheless.

Like I know Sakurai isn't keen on adding characters that aren't recognized globally, but that didn't stop him with Marth and Roy back in Melee, and Lucas in Brawl. So it's not like he hasn't broken that rule before.
Also, there's is the fact he is reutilizing scrapped concepts from previous games.

Sakurai included Lucas in Brawl under the assumption that Mother 3 was going to get released worldwide, Sakurai stated that if he knew Mother 3 was going to remain only in Japan, he wouldn't have added Lucas to the roster, so that goes against a Japanese-only character ever happening again. Source

 

[RouffWestie]

Alright lets try again then considering the trend for Pokemon and 1st party retro fighters. Which retro do you guys think is the most likely?

-Ayumi Tachibana
-Balloon Fighter
-Bubbles
-Lip
-Mach Rider
-Sable Prince
-Sheriff
-Other

Sable Prince is definitely happening this time.
Also Sheriff is returning as an Assist Trophy.

 

[Misery Brick]

Who dat?

Ayumi Tachibana. She's from a Japan exclusive game called Famicom Detective Club.
This is what she looks like:

Spoiler

Melee was before Smash became really global and Lucas was supposed to be in a game that released wordlwide.

Keep in mind though, he literally kept Ayumi from entering in Melee because she didn't have global appeal or recognition.
This is the same game that introduced Fire Emblem characters that theoretically would have been kept out if Sakurai kept to that rule across the board.
Also Melee was sold across different territories. It wasn't an iconic franchise at the time, but it still was widely known.

Sakurai included Lucas in Brawl under the assumption that Mother 3 was going to get released worldwide, Sakurai stated that if he knew Mother 3 was going to remain only in Japan, he wouldn't have added Lucas to the roster, so that goes against a Japanese-only character ever happening again. Source

Oh okay, thanks for pulling that up! However, I wouldn't go that far to say it wouldn't ever happen again. It's just seemingly unlikely at this point.

 

[osby]

Alright lets try again then considering the trend for Pokemon and 1st party retro fighters. Which retro do you guys think is the most likely?

-Ayumi Tachibana
-Balloon Fighter
-Bubbles
-Lip
-Mach Rider
-Sable Prince
-Sheriff
-Other

I don't think we'll have a retro character because ballot, but Mach Rideror Ayumi seems most likely.

 

[MrRoidley]

Here's a question: What are some characters you guys feel are likelier than the community as a whole seems to think? Obviously this means no Skull Kids/Isabelles/Isaacs/Genos/etc etc.

Agumon.
If we got Mario v Sonic, Link v Cloud, the next one to me can only be Pikachu v Agumon

Jack Frost as well. He's Atlus mascot, I see him as likely as Joker

 

[Iridium]

This counts as retro, and was developed by Capcom:

Does anybody remember this?

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Regarding this retro discussion...

There are a few names that keep coming up because "Sakurai was gonna put them in Melee!" ...like James Bond... and I think people may be reading this wrong.

See SourceGaming's list.

There is undisputably a difference between "This would be cool! Aww, we don't have time to get it to work." and "lol this would be funny. But seriously, someone else." Just because Sakurai mentioned a name does not imply that he gave it more than just a cursory thought.

Also, Sakurai is breaking a lot of our 'rules' so I'm no longer taking "we've always had a retro!" as evidence that we'll be getting one. You know what else we've never gotten? A Metroid character who wasn't named Ms. Aran. A DK character who wasn't a monkey.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I don't think we'll have a retro character because ballot, but Mach Rideror Ayumi seems most likely.

Based on the trend of Smash games since Melee though I think we will. Just because most of the newcomers are based off of the ballot. I can still imagine Sakurai throwing in a few that weren't based off of it.

 

[Moydow]

Professor Layton [...] in Europe at least, he was being marketed with the big boys like Mario and Pokemon.

So was Phoenix Wright. Can we have both? We can have Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright for real.

I'd say Nick has a pretty decent chance if we're to get another Capcom character, but maybe I'm just being too optimistic. :p

 

[MrRoidley]

Also, Sakurai is breaking a lot of our 'rules' so I'm no longer taking "we've always had a retro!" as evidence that we'll be getting one. You know what else we've never gotten? A Metroid character who wasn't named Ms. Aran. A DK character who wasn't a monkey.

Pretty much this, after Ridley, all "rules" have been simply thrown into the air, there's 0 way to really predict stuff anymore

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

This counts as retro, and was developed by Capcom:

Does anybody remember this?

Breath of Fire is still ongoing. A new one came out in 2016 I believe.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

15 years

So she's in!

 

[Originality]

Here's a question: What are some characters you guys feel are likelier than the community as a whole seems to think? Obviously this means no Skull Kids/Isabelles/Isaacs/Genos/etc etc.

Chibi, but that is basically all because of the flaming Chibi tweet
I can dream

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Pretty much this, after Ridley, all "rules" have been simply thrown into the air, there's 0 way to really predict stuff anymore

Yeah, at this point, I expect A western third party

 

[osby]

Based on the trend of Smash games since Melee though I think we will. Just because most of the newcomers are based off of the ballot. I can still imagine Sakurai throwing in a few that weren't based off of it.

I hope, they arealways fun.

 

[TechPowah]

A DK character who wasn't a monkey

DK himself isn't a monkey though

:y

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think if we're not getting a retro rep it's going to be because of a combination of having gone through most of the notable ones as well as Ultimate having more limited newcomer spots.

I don't think it's something Sakurai tries to force in, if there aren't any great options or he doesn't want to make it a huge priority, then it's just not going to happen.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

So she's in!

No, Because she has been relevant

 

[Iridium]

Breath of Fire is still ongoing. A new one came out in 2016 I believe.

Yeah, I just checked, and you're right. The 6th one.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's a question: What are some characters you guys feel are likelier than the community as a whole seems to think? Obviously this means no Skull Kids/Isabelles/Isaacs/Genos/etc etc.

I feel characters like Minecraft Steve for base game and Rabbids for DLC aren't quite as impossible as people think they are. I'm not saying they're super likely, but I will say they're ideas that are largely slept on. Especially the Rabbids; Nintendo and Ubisoft are super chummy right now, kinda like how Platinum and Nintendo were chummy back on the Wii U. Whether base game or DLC, I honestly believe a Ubisoft character is gonna show up at some point.

And as for Steve...Believe me, I want Banjo just as much as everyone else here, but If I'm being honest, I feel the chances are slim to none. If Microsoft gets a character in Smash, Minecraft is kind of a forgone conclusion to me. It's a worldwide icon that has reached the heights of Pokemon and Mario in terms of household names; it being in Smash would make HUGE waves with certain audiences and would be a giant selling point for the game.

Just my two cents, though. As I said before, I would prefer Banjo, I just don't think he's as safe as some are saying. I would love to be wrong, though.

EDIT: Whoops, I made a mistake on the post. Fixed it now, lol. It was about Fatal Frame, but I changed my mind on commenting about that.

 

[MrRoidley]

ever since Smash 4 we have been having a few "rules" being broken actually:
Villager completely thrown the "too cute"/"doesn't actually fight" arguments
Cloud just made us rethink which third-parties can enter and "history with Nintendo" means nothing

This time around, it's Ridley with the size stuff, and K. Rool with relevancy. Sure that could point out to popularity being a bigger factor but then again, who knows, we could be getting a Wii Fit Trainer-level of wtf character next

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Mondu the Fat

Welp this is the last one...

Not really