Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Megadoomer]

Out of curiosity, who do you guys think are the next most likely 3rd party characters? I personally can't really think of anyone myself. We already got the big hitters and then some, and I have a hard time seeing Snake because Konami reasons.

Rayman definitely seems likely - I could imagine Ubisoft pushing harder for him this time around, and he was already seen as major enough to get a trophy in Smash 4.

Shovel Knight seems like a possibility, considering how closely tied the game is to Nintendo consoles (to the point where the Switch got the latest campaign before any other version).

If Konami comes to their senses and brings back Snake, I could see Bomberman being added as well, considering the series long history with Nintendo consoles and the fact that Super Bomberman R was the best-selling game in the franchise in twenty years (which may not be much for the past ten, but it also includes the N64 games like Bomberman 64: The Second Attack). That might be due to a lack of alternatives for multiplayer games during the Switch's launch, but it still seems to say something.

Maybe someone from Koei Tecmo, given that Nintendo has let them work on two spin-offs for major franchises. Ryu Hayabusa, possibly?

This one's more of a long-shot, but maybe Travis Touchdown? Suda 51's apparently been quite persistent on getting him in, and with a third No More Heroes game coming out, there might be a chance.

 

[N3ON]

I'm completely surprised at the fact that no one mentioned Rayman. Like, this time two years ago Rayman was the **** up in here with you guys. What happened?

Ubisoft is still porting his games to Nintendo. They're not supporting the system any less than the other third-parties. The Rabbids might even mix it up with Mario. And like... he's not unpopular.

It's a very strange place when I'm the one advocating for Rayman, haha. I don't think he's a guarantee, far from it, but in the dearth of third-party candidates that truly stand out above the rest, which we more or less find ourselves in now, to me he does seem like one of the more plausible ones.

AAAAAAAND NINJAD
point still stands though. whatsup?

There's one particular character I feel whose chances are overrated, but for the sake of not beating a dead horse, I'm not going to discuss it further.

is it incineroar

or is it mimikyu

oh

its probably lycanroc, right?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's one particular character I feel whose chances are overrated, but for the sake of not beating a dead horse, I'm not going to discuss it further.

I can think of a few myself, but I'm keeping my mouth shut as well.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm completely surprised at the fact that no one mentioned Rayman. Like, this time two years ago Rayman was the **** up in here with you guys. What happened?

Ubisoft is still porting his games to Nintendo. They're not supporting the system any less than the other third-parties. The Rabbids might even mix it up with Mario. And like... he's not unpopular.

It's a very strange place when I'm the one advocating for Rayman, haha. I don't think he's a guarantee, far from it, but in the dearth of third-party candidates that truly stand out above the rest, which we more or less find ourselves in now, to me he does seem like one of the more plausible ones.

I thought about mentioning Rayman, but I'm not too sure if Smash will ever have any playable western third party characters.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Overrated:

• Bomberman: I feel like the awkwardness of Konami, especially with snake is a really big deal, and yet Bomberman is pretty much seen as close to a shoo-in as a third party can get in some places
• Ice Climbers- ever since the rumors for smash switch started it became "Inklings and Ice Climbers" for some reason. I get that they are likely if they work on switch (they very well might not because of 8 player smash AND handheld mode) but it seems like they are getting way too much credit

Under rated:

• Inciniroar- okay yeah maybe im just biased but the guy isn't even seen as a contender. It's just Decidueye and mimikyu with people
• Wolf I guess, purely on the fact saying wolf was accurately rated and ICs werent would be weird

Im sure im forgetting a few but ehh

 

[Deleted member]

I will give that Rayman is more reasonable considering he got trophies of himself and two other characters in Smash Wii U, but unless there's a real push to make him playable by fans or Ubisoft, it's a hard sell.

It's like, "Ok, here's Rayman as a trophy. He didn't quite make it as a fighter, though." and then DLC comes around and he still didn't make it then. He's got his foot in the door, I guess. But it's unsure whether the door will be opened completely for him.

 

[N3ON]

Daisy
Any Gen 7 Pokemon (obv possible but some act like its a guarantee)
an ARMS character in the port
uhhh
Elma (if she's still popular - idk)
Bomberman
any veteran that isn't ICs.

These are characters I believe are currently overrated.

I thought about mentioning Rayman, but I'm not too sure if Smash will ever have any playable western third party characters.

Seems like a fan-made barrier tbh. It might be easier to include a Japanese one given Nintendo tends to be closer to those companies, but Ninty and Ubi play fairly well together, and might even be collaborating on content. Keeping a character out on a regional basis is a level of xenophobia I don't believe Sakurai holds, and Nintendo itself doesn't seem to either.

 

[Deleted member]

• Under rated: Inciniroar- okay yeah maybe im just biased but the guy isn't even seen as a contender. It's just Decidueye and mimikyu with people

Represent.
Even though I feel Tapu Koko is one of the stronger contenders (but is also underrated like Incineroar).

 

[N3ON]

I will give that Rayman is more reasonable considering he got trophies of himself and two other characters in Smash Wii U, but unless there's a real push to make him playable by fans or Ubisoft, it's a hard sell.

I'm given to think his trophy is due to Ubi pushing Nintendo, so I wouldn't think they're adverse to it. And given that he probably placed ok in the ballot, has become a more popular choice since his trophy (partially due to his trophy) and that his series might crossover with Mario's soon (indicating a working relationship of collaboration between the two companies)... I wouldn't count him out.

Though I mostly rank him as one of the more plausible ones because all (or at least almost all) the really plausible ones have, imo, already been added.

 

[Opossum]

Overrated:

• Bomberman: I feel like the awkwardness of Konami, especially with snake is a really big deal, and yet Bomberman is pretty much seen as close to a shoo-in as a third party can get in some places
• Ice Climbers- ever since the rumors for smash switch started it became "Inklings and Ice Climbers" for some reason. I get that they are likely if they work on switch (they very well might not because of 8 player smash AND handheld mode) but it seems like they are getting way too much credit

Under rated:

• Inciniroar- okay yeah maybe im just biased but the guy isn't even seen as a contender. It's just Decidueye and mimikyu with people
• Wolf I guess, purely on the fact saying wolf was accurately rated and ICs werent would be weird

Im sure im forgetting a few but ehh

If it makes any difference, I think Incineroar is easily the second most likely Pokémon newcomer, behind Decidueye and ahead of Tapu Koko. And that's coming from like, the Decidueye guy.

 

[Luminario]

Out of curiosity, what are some characters whose chances you feel are over- or underrated? I might answer my own question later.

Oooh now THIS question just reeks of drama and arguments I love it.
I'm seeing a lot of Bomberman on here, which is unusual because I didn't really think of him as a likely contender, I'm guessing we're just scrolling through the -man characters now that Megaman and Pacman are in the game. He's got a good legacy and backlog though so that helps
Shovel Knight's also making the rounds in here, but that one's much more understandable thanks to his amiibo and well-received game. I don't think he's particularly likely for smash due to the fact he only has one non Nintendo exclusive game that's a nostalgic love letter to Nintendo's legacy itself, but for other games that require less commitment I can see him popping up (like a Super Mario Maker sprite or icons here and there). What decides his fate in smash is dependant on whether his popularity is short-lived or not and whether or not he can secure a legacy enough that rivals the other third party characters already in the game.

There's one particular character I feel whose chances are overrated, but for the sake of not beating a dead horse, I'm not going to discuss it further.

I can think of a few myself, but I'm keeping my mouth shut as well.

Come on, start the drama already (edited cause it's not nice to be mean like that, even jokingly)

 

[Deleted member]

I'm given to think his trophy is due to Ubi pushing Nintendo, so I wouldn't think they're adverse to it. And given that he probably placed ok in the ballot, has become a more popular choice since his trophy (partially due to his trophy) and that his series might crossover with Mario's soon (indicating a working relationship of collaboration between the two companies)... I wouldn't count him out.

Though I mostly rank him as one of the more plausible ones because all (or at least almost all) the really plausible ones have, imo, already been added.

As I said in the edit:

It's like, "Ok, here's Rayman as a trophy. He didn't quite make it as a fighter, though." and then DLC comes around and he still didn't make it then. He's got his foot in the door, I guess. But it's unsure whether the door will be opened completely for him.

I'm not ready to count him out, but at the same time, it's kind of a "what happens now?" deal with nothing really pointing one way or the other. /shrug

Y'all are cowards, start the drama already (that was a joke, please don't kill me for that)

Not a coward. Just that the subject in question is one I've talked about enough to where people already know my stance well enough.

 

[N3ON]

As I said in the edit:


I'm not ready to count him out, but at the same time, it's kind of a "what happens now?" deal with nothing really pointing one way or the other. /shrug

My bad, I missed the edit.

I'm generally in agreement. And as I don't see Smash ceasing to add third-parties, I'd say having your foot in the door is better than nothing. And I'd say a functioning relationship with Nintendo, a history in Smash, and a degree of popularity is more than most are working with atm.

But I'm not a Rayman supporter, I've really no investment either way. It's just funny to see how the demand seems to have dissipated during a time when, imo, his chances endure.

 

[Ura]

I doubt he'd be a big request.

Basically, for Scorpion to even have a chance, he'd have to either be a notably huge request or Ed Boon would have to be so big on the idea of him being in Smash that he'd pull a Kojima and directly talk to Sakurai about it.

I call bull on that personally.

Scorpion is an icon of the gaming industry and has the kind of mainstream popularity that Cloud has. Right up there with the likes of Ryu. The Mortal Kombat franchise is so huge that if he was a DLC character he would be the most purchased in NA and Europe.

Of course Japan is a big roadblock for him (funny since the character is actually from Japan lol) but his massive popularity in the West is enough to overcome that barrier. There would even be tons of curiosity buys from Japanese players as well.

 

[Opossum]

I call bull on that personally.

Scorpion is an icon of the gaming industry and has the kind of mainstream popularity that Cloud has. Right up there with the likes of Ryu. The Mortal Kombat franchise is so huge that if he was a DLC character he would be the most purchased in NA and Europe.

Of course Japan is a big roadblock for him (funny since the character is actually from Japan lol) but his massive popularity in the West is enough to overcome that barrier. There would even be tons of curiosity buys from Japanese players as well.

I'm just not convinced Sakurai would get the go-ahead from Nintendo to add Scorpion.

IIRC, they were incredibly cautious with allowing Sakurai to add Snake in Brawl for the mature nature of his series, but Scorpion takes it to another level. Yes, things can be toned down (Snake only using explosives, Bayonetta not using too much of her hair for attacks), but Mortal Kombat is so known for its brutality that I don't think they'd give it the same pass they gave Snake and Bayonetta.

It's less of Scorpion himself that's the issue (since they could tone him down to appropriate levels), but more so Mortal Kombat as a whole.

 

[N3ON]

I call bull on that personally.

Scorpion is an icon of the gaming industry and has the kind of mainstream popularity that Cloud has. Right up there with the likes of Ryu. The Mortal Kombat franchise is so huge that if he was a DLC character he would be the most purchased in NA and Europe.

Of course Japan is a big roadblock for him (funny since the character is actually from Japan lol) but his massive popularity in the West is enough to overcome that barrier. There would even be tons of curiosity buys from Japanese players as well.

I'm not in disagreement that Scorpion is a big character, but I don't see why Sakurai would bother adding him without being prompted by demand or personal influence.

I think he'd have to be pretty desperate for third-parties to go looking for one that hasn't graced Nintendo systems in a long time (edit: I guess he showed up in Injustice, but that's still a far cry from a MK on Nintendo), is not requested, is not Japanese, and would have to be toned down excessively.

 

[Deleted member]

Overrated (not necessarily overrated in general (because I honestly don't know), but in two specific threads here on Smashboards)

Going by this thread alone

Bomberman - I've said it before, but while it wouldn't surprise me if Bomberman is next in line from Konami if Snake returns, I highly doubt that whatever deal Nintendo made with them to get Super Bomberman R made involves Smash in some way.

Going by the most recent edition of Rate Their Chances

Scorpion - Even if a western third party character is added, I think they'd more likely go with someone with more worldwide recognition and popularity. Mortal Kombat just isn't very well known or popular in Japan, and as far as I know, the newer MKs weren't even released there.

No one really comes to my mind as underrated, honestly.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Going by the most recent edition of Rate Their Chances

Oh man I forgot about RTC


I wonder how long until someone starts a new one. . .
I wonder if they'll wait for E3.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm just not convinced Sakurai would get the go-ahead from Nintendo to add Scorpion.

IIRC, they were incredibly cautious with allowing Sakurai to add Snake in Brawl for the mature nature of his series, but Scorpion takes it to another level. Yes, things can be toned down (Snake only using explosives, Bayonetta not using too much of her hair for attacks), but Mortal Kombat is so known for its brutality that I don't think they'd give it the same pass they gave Snake and Bayonetta.

It's less of Scorpion himself that's the issue (since they could tone him down to appropriate levels), but more so Mortsl Kombat as a whole.

This. It's not the "blood" either. Scorpion is known for being brutal. And as shown, we're talking about bone-breaking, spine-ripping, gut-wrenching, gorn. You don't need blood to be brutal. He would cause bruises alone with how rough he is. He's basically a sadist in how he fights(which is a general Mortal Kombat thing).

I like the character, but even Mortal Kombat VS DC Universe didn't tone this down to the point that he doesn't feel like a major brutal character. I feel he's best left out because it's way too hard to tone him down while keeping the character represented properly.

 

[Deleted member]

I call bull on that personally.

Scorpion is an icon of the gaming industry and has the kind of mainstream popularity that Cloud has. Right up there with the likes of Ryu. The Mortal Kombat franchise is so huge that if he was a DLC character he would be the most purchased in NA and Europe.

Of course Japan is a big roadblock for him (funny since the character is actually from Japan lol) but his massive popularity in the West is enough to overcome that barrier. There would even be tons of curiosity buys from Japanese players as well.

As N3ON said, Scorpion being a big character is not in question. However, being a big name does not mean a character automatically has a chance to be in Smash.
There are numerous factors at play. Opo, N3ON, and HyperFalcon (who changes names more than the average person changes their wardrobe :V) already covered that.

I'm instead going to cover it from a different perspective.
None of the guests we got were cases of Sakurai/Nintendo going out of their way to negotiate with a 3rd-Party company to include their character just because that character is an icon. Majority were due to being noticeably popular fan requests (), one was because the creator directly negotiated with Sakurai about it (), and one was basically a surprise thank you gift for the company that was involved with the game's development ().

Are they all icons (except Bayonetta)? Yes. Was being an icon the reason for negotiation? No.

Scorpion would be no different. Either he has to be a noticeably popular fan request or Ed Boon has to go the Kojima route for him to stand a chance since I doubt NetherRealm Studios is going to be involved with Smash development anytime soon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

HyperFalcon (who changes names more than the average person changes their wardrobe :V)

Nah, only once a month. I change half my wardrobe all the time!

 

[LIQUID12A]

I get a nagging feeling that Incineroar is underrated given the obsession people have with the idea of the next Pokemon newcomer being either a Grass starter, something popular or "this mon because I love it and will use any reasoning possible for it". Yeah, I'm guilty of casting it aside too, but I've been stuck with the thought nonetheless.

Regarding Scorpion, there's a simple way to say why he would be extremely unlikely: it'd be like trying to make a case for Kratos to be a third party guest. You're trying to tone down a character whose entire shtick is brutalizing and ripping apart his foes in the goriest fashion possible. Knowing how Sakurai tries to represent characters faithfully, there's a big no no.

It'd fly in PlayStation All Stars, knowing how lenient with M-rated characters that game is compared to Smash.

 

[N3ON]

As N3ON said, Scorpion being a big character is not in question. However, being a big name does not mean a character automatically has a chance to be in Smash.
There are numerous factors at play. Opo, N3ON, and HyperFalcon (who changes names more than the average person changes their wardrobe :V) already covered that.

I'm instead going to cover it from a different perspective.
None of the guests we got were cases of Sakurai/Nintendo going out of their way to negotiate with a 3rd-Party company to include their character just because that character is an icon. Majority were due to being noticeably popular fan requests (), one was because the creator directly negotiated with Sakurai about it (), and one was basically a surprise thank you gift for the company that was involved with the game's development ().

Are they all icons (except Bayonetta)? Yes. Was being an icon the reason for negotiation? No.

Scorpion would be no different. Either he has to be a noticeably popular fan request or Ed Boon has to go the Kojima route for him to stand a chance since I doubt NetherRealm Studios is going to be involved with Smash development anytime soon.

Not to undermine the point but was Ryu a popular fan request when he was selected? He has other reasons for inclusion that I don't believe Scorpion possesses but I recall public sentiment being, for the most part, pretty negative, to, at best, neutral on the idea of Ryu before his involvement was known.

 

[Deleted member]

Not to undermine the point but was Ryu a popular fan request when he was selected? He has other reasons for inclusion that I don't believe Scorpion possesses but I recall public sentiment being, for the most part, pretty negative, to, at best, neutral on the idea of Ryu before his involvement was known.

Sakurai said as much, surprisingly enough.

He said that while Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were all decided before the Ballot, he already had a feel for their popularity and requests.

 

[Kirbeh]

Overrated characters - >insert your desired characters here<

Underrated characters - Non-Specific Action Figure and Reckless Wii Remote Safety Guy

 

[N3ON]

Sakurai said as much, surprisingly enough.

He said that while Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were all decided before the Ballot, he already had a feel for their popularity and requests.

Ok, fair enough.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai was referencing Ryu's popularity more generally and outside of a Smash context.

 

[Deleted member]

Overrated characters - >insert your desired characters here<

Underrated characters - Non-Specific Action Figure and Reckless Wii Remote Safety Guy

-triggered-

Ok, fair enough.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai was referencing Ryu's popularity more generally and outside of a Smash context.

He could very well have been, though it was worded (or at least translated) in a way that seemed to imply a Smash context.

"There is a fighter ballot on the official Smash for Wii U/3DS website. We’ve received an extremely large number of votes, but of course, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu were in development even before the ballot was created. I had a grasp on their popularity and demand, though."

Maybe Push could give a bit more insight.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, Sakurai was also a Street Fighter II player. So he likely had an idea of Ryu's fanbase or could even have found him a good idea to his own personal experience. I don't know if any of these factors were mentioned outright by Sakurai when talking about Ryu as a choice. He only mentioned Street Fighter II in a different context, about how infinite combos and such became very unfun to play against because of the huge difference between players(casual VS competitive, but moreso how one player can dominate severely hard to the point that the other player doesn't enjoy it at all. This is the basis he used to balance Brawl, to try and remove the difference in player ability so it's easier for others to catch up).

 

[Kirbeh]

-triggered-

Spoiler

[/spoier]

 

[dangeraaron10]

Knuckles shoo-in for Smash, confirmed?

I mean he's got like 50 support threads and countless socials.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So...

Are we gonna get Knuckles or Knuckles and Knuckles?

 

[Kirbeh]

So...

Are we gonna get Knuckles or Knuckles and Knuckles?

Hard to say. Which one doesn't chuckle? That should narrow things down.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hard to say. Which one doesn't chuckle? That should narrow things down.

Well none of them chuckle.

They'd rather flex their muscles.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

What about just Elma?

I'd be okay with that. She makes the most sense for the next Xenoblade character, though even then I'm not gunning for her as a necessary addition in the first place.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

I doubt he'd be a big request.

Basically, for Scorpion to even have a chance, he'd have to either be a notably huge request or Ed Boon would have to be so big on the idea of him being in Smash that he'd pull a Kojima and directly talk to Sakurai about it.

Based on the kind of reaction Boon once made about the idea here in a tweet, I doubt he'd go as far as like Kojima to request, but interesting he responded about it nonetheless.

I admit to kinda wanting him at some point because of Ryu's inclusion and having some official game where the mascots of SF and MK could duke it out would've been nice, but knew he'd be a pretty far reach.

 

[Deleted member]

Based on the kind of reaction Boon once made about the idea here in a tweet, I doubt he'd go as far as like Kojima to request, but interesting he responded about it nonetheless.

I admit to kinda wanting him at some point because of Ryu's inclusion and having some official game where the mascots of SF and MK could duke it out would've been nice, but knew he'd be a pretty far reach.

To be fair, when directly asked about if they'd like to see their character in Smash, no one's really going to say "no". :V

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing another Sonic character, and if we do that, I think the theme gives away what the popular vote will be.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I've just discovered this bit of the board and I'm not even sure I'm ready of the speculation and Knuckles of it all.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I'm completely surprised at the fact that no one mentioned Rayman. Like, this time two years ago Rayman was the **** up in here with you guys. What happened?

Ubisoft is still porting his games to Nintendo. They're not supporting the system any less than the other third-parties. The Rabbids might even mix it up with Mario. And like... he's not unpopular.

It's a very strange place when I'm the one advocating for Rayman, haha. I don't think he's a guarantee, far from it, but in the dearth of third-party candidates that truly stand out above the rest, which we more or less find ourselves in now, to me he does seem like one of the more plausible ones.

AAAAAAAND NINJAD
point still stands though. whatsup?


is it incineroar

or is it mimikyu

oh

its probably lycanroc, right?

I just don't find western characters with very little popularity in Japan likely, especially after Sakurai has said stuff like

"Final Fantasy is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left."

"At the same time, I think it’s only natural to prioritize the character who enjoys worldwide popularity."

"At the same time, gamers from that generation (80's-90's) probably already have all the characters they could want. Mega Man has also joined the fray, so there might not be anyone left."

These comments can be found in the Cloud section of this article.

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

There was also another interview where he said he thinks it's important to add Japanese guest characters to introduce them to a wider audience, or something along the lines of that. I don't know where to find it, but if you're really curious you can ask Push. He should know.

I guess this is a message to everyone; you should check out these quotes if you haven't. I think it's really important to take these comments into account when speculating guest characters.

 

[Opossum]

I just don't find western characters with very little popularity in Japan likely, especially after Sakurai has said stuff like


These comments can be found in the Cloud section of this article.

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

There was also another interview where he said he thinks it's important to add Japanese guest characters to introduce them to a wider audience, or something along the lines of that. I don't know where to find it, but if you're really curious you can ask Push. He should know.

I guess this is a message to everyone; you should check out these quotes if you haven't. I think it's really important to take these comments into account when speculating guest characters.

You know, after reading this, I'm thinking that despite being a supporter, I may not be giving Crash Bandicoot enough credit. His first three games were huge in Japan (the second title was the first western game to sell one million copies there). If more people supported him, I think he could stand a decent shot now, especially if the remaster goes well.