Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[God Robert's Cousin]

Fire/Ghost Owl would actually be amazing, if not better than the Grass-version.

That aside, just because people like the unique aesthetic a Plant-based fighter brings doesn't mean it's a "bandwagon" character.
Yeah, Decidueye's niche in the roster is partly because he's a grass-based fighter (note that I'm not talking about a "complete triangle"), just like Pikachu has the advantage of being electric-based. It gives a certain vibe to the moveset at a basic level and bringing unseen mechanics to the fray if going all out (You can't shoot a fire seed so that a fire tree comes out) but I fail to see why that would take away from Decidueye's popularity just because Sceptile's support might or may have not existed based on a "triangle" (which is again, different from seeing potential for uniqueness on a visual level, not unlike Corn having basic lance attacks attached to a visual appealing "dragon's vein")

It becomes different when people say he's likely because of an arbitrary concept of completing the type triangle or because of the conditions being vaguely similar to Greninja's.

But then, if the main trait people are looking for like you claim is the plant-aspect of the character, why are they supporting Decidueye in the first place? Why not Isaac, who uses all sorts of plant-and-earth attacks and comes with an actual risk-management mechanic from Golden Sun? Why not Lip, who is literally a flower fairy and stands as the very face of what a damage-over-time fighter would be? There are other plant-based fighters that are also the main characters of their series, which have no reason to have to wait to get in until after a starter Pokemon that could potentially lose all relevance between the point their generation ends and their remakes begin.

Going beyond that, what does the plant aesthetic even mean for the roster? The Fire of Charizard means spontaneous small-frame large-hitboxes, the Water of Greninja means a couple of windbox moves that only Mario would otherwise have, the Grass of Decidueye... Gives it more range? Ivysaur certainly didn't have anything notable compared to Squirtle and Charizard in Brawl, at least. None of this even acknowledges the existence of Olimar or Villager, by the way, who absolutely have plant-based attacks in some of their moveset.

When it comes down to it, since Decidueye isn't outright blowing the rest of Generation 7 out of the water in terms of popularity, I'm still not convinced that people aren't using Decidueye as a quota before a character.

To be fair in a Smash context Sakurai can just make him attack with space laser stuff even though he technically doesn't canonically

But Cosmog is specifically a Pokemon that can't battle. If you make it start shooting space lasers, you are taking away one of the major traits of the Pokemon that gave a basis to the plot in Sun and Moon to begin with.

While we're at it, let's just have Pikachu use some Psychic-type moves. He doesn't use them canonically, but hey, Sakurai can just make him do that, right?

 

[Deleted member]

But then, if the main trait people are looking for like you claim is the plant-aspect of the character, why are they supporting Decidueye in the first place? Why not Isaac, who uses all sorts of plant-and-earth attacks and comes with an actual risk-management mechanic from Golden Sun? Why not Lip, who is literally a flower fairy and stands as the very face of what a damage-over-time fighter would be? There are other plant-based fighters that are also the main characters of their series, which have no reason to have to wait to get in until after a starter Pokemon that could potentially lose all relevance between the point their generation ends and their remakes begin.

Going beyond that, what does the plant aesthetic even mean for the roster? The Fire of Charizard means spontaneous small-frame large-hitboxes, the Water of Greninja means a couple of windbox moves that only Mario would otherwise have, the Grass of Decidueye... Gives it more range? Ivysaur certainly didn't have anything notable compared to Squirtle and Charizard in Brawl, at least. None of this even acknowledges the existence of Olimar or Villager, by the way, who absolutely have plant-based attacks in some of their moveset.

When it comes down to it, since Decidueye isn't outright blowing the rest of Generation 7 out of the water in terms of popularity, I'm still not convinced that people aren't using Decidueye as a quota before a character.

There's also the fact that Sceptile would ironically be a better representative of the whole "plant theme" element compared to Decidueye. Just look at its Pokken moveset. For a Grass type, Decidueye doesn't really have anything special in regards to Grass moves that comes even close to that.

While we're at it, let's just have Pikachu use some Psychic-type moves. He doesn't use them canonically, but hey, Sakurai can just make him do that, right?

What about Puka from the anime (who totally wasn't the inspiration for Alola Raichu :V)?

 

[Luminario]

Oh definitely.
Unlike Lillie & Nebby, Lusamine & Nihilego would actually be capable of fighting (and would be more than willing to do so).

And in general, Lusamine would help cover bases where Nihilego falls short on and vice-versa.....

Though it's not just Lusamine & Nihilego; she'd summon her other Pokémon in the fight as well.

Fighting as the pokemon trainer instead of the pokemon has been a highly requested gimmick for quite some time too. I really think you're on to something here. She's also the only pokemon trainer I can think of to actually almost be physically violent in a cutscene.

But then, if the main trait people are looking for like you claim is the plant-aspect of the character, why are they supporting Decidueye in the first place? Why not Isaac, who uses all sorts of plant-and-earth attacks and comes with an actual risk-management mechanic from Golden Sun? Why not Lip, who is literally a flower fairy and stands as the very face of what a damage-over-time fighter would be?

I wish more people saw the potential of Lip as a fighter. She's got good stuff to work with and the damage-over-time gimmick fits well with the design of her game, where you set the garbage blocks in motion to the opponents side and the game mechanics do the rest.
I've never been that interested in Isaac but no one can argue his potential with his Venus earthbending skills.

 

[A Distant Demon]

But then, if the main trait people are looking for like you claim is the plant-aspect of the character, why are they supporting Decidueye in the first place? Why not Isaac, who uses all sorts of plant-and-earth attacks and comes with an actual risk-management mechanic from Golden Sun?

Because pokemon is a bajillion times more popular than the super niche golden sun

Ditto for Lip

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Because pokemon is a bajillion times more popular than the super niche golden sun

Ditto for Lip

Then why isn't Sakurai just directing Pokken 2 instead of Smash Bros.?

Don't take me taking that too seriously now

 

[Delzethin]

No Alolan Raichu love?

Alolan Raichu would run the risk of feeling too same-y, but I could see a certain other Alolan form having an outside shot...

 

[Burruni]

....no they don't.

They didn't push Lucario TO Sakurai. They pushed Lucario through a movie, and said movie happened to be right when Sakurai was finalizing the roster.

They didn't push Zoroark TO Sakurai. They pushed Zoroark through a movie. But unlike Lucario, who received great reception and became a fan favorite, Zoroark was just "so-so". But had Smash 4 started development around when the movie came out.....we would very likely have seen Zoroark in Smash regardless of the lack of success compared to Lucario.

They didn't even push Greninja TO Sakurai. He saw a design draft of the Pokémon among others and decided on it.

...
I thought I read from an SG article that GF basically send their biggest hits list for Sakurai.
I'm a dumb.

 

[Opossum]

Alolan Raichu would run the risk of feeling too same-y, but I could see a certain other Alolan form having an outside shot...

...Alolan Exeggutor for Smash?

 

[Delzethin]

...
I thought I read from an SG article that GF basically send their biggest hits list for Sakurai.
I'm a dumb.

You're actually not far off the mark. From what we know of, TPC sends the Smash team whatever art assets, design details, and other miscellany that they would need to decide if a 'mon was a compelling choice. It's not so much about "pushing" a character, even though it feels that way at first glance. It's more that there seems to be a short list of prominent mons every generation, and from there the team goes into the usual process of creating concepts for them and weighing their options.

Greninja got the nod in the base game not just due to being a starter from the games that were going to be the newest on release, but also because there were some interesting things to work with. Had Smash 4 come about earlier, Zoroark probably would've gotten a serious look, but Gen 5 was falling out of relevance as it stood and Gen 6 became the better option.

Also worth considering that there's no chance in hell Greninja was the only Gen 6 'mon they looked at. There's no way they'd put all of their eggs in one basket, so to speak. There have to be others who were considered that we just haven't had confirmation of.

So you could say I'm very confident we'll see a Pokémon newcomer--potentially more than one--pending the level of new content. If they're built from scratch, they'll have looked at Gen 7 just like they did Gen 6 and Greninja. If they're merely characters who fell short of the base roster, we might see another from Gen 6.

...Alolan Exeggutor for Smash?

...Well...I could see that as a summon. But I was thinking something a little...icier.

With how much they're "honoring" Gen 1 lately, how surprising would it really be to see someone who embodies both old and new? And since Lillie has an Alolan Vulpix in the anime, the prominence seems to be there.

I wouldn't put her above Decidueye or even either Lycanroc, but...if you squint a little, things could line up. As a long shot, anyway. Has some fascinating moveset potential, though.

EDIT: Crap, jumped the gun and double posted.

EDIT 2: Thanks to whoever it was who merged them.

 

[Pixlemaster]

When did this thread turn into a Pokémon thread?

 

[Luminario]

When did this thread turn into a Pokémon thread?

It was a Daisy thread a few pages back, now we moved onto discussing the new potential pokemon reps. It's just how this thread has developed. After this we'll move onto a different subject.

...Well...I could see that as a summon. But I was thinking something a little...icier.

With how much they're "honoring" Gen 1 lately, how surprising would it really be to see someone who embodies both old and new? And since Lillie has an Alolan Vulpix in the anime, the prominence seems to be there.

I wouldn't put her above Decidueye or even either Lycanroc, but...if you squint a little, things could line up. As a long shot, anyway. Has some fascinating moveset potential, though.

EDIT: Crap, jumped the gun and double posted.

I was actually expecting Alolan Marowak instead of Ninetales, but it works too I'd like either of them in smash. Ninetales might have difficulty holding things though unless it uses its gorgeous hair to grip objects.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

...Alolan Exeggutor for Smash?

He's to tall. He wouldn't be the same if his massive trunk is shortened.

Speaking of which, how would you feel if I were to make a support thread for a certain Xenoblade 2 character despite the game not being out yet?

We already know her role and name, she's just as important as the main character. She's even the main character's Monado in humanoid form with some elemental power. And that's based off what we know for now (not even spoilers).

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Wreck it Ralph 2 confirmed!

... And EA Star Wars Battlefront II.

edit: I once fancied the idea of certain playable trainers instead of Pokémon, but kinda lost interest in the concept now. Lusamine would kinda be cool though.

 

[A Distant Demon]

For future reference, the above post would still be spam even with that edit. I'm giving some slight leeway with warnings because i'm assuming this is the wrong thread.


I wonder just how relevant Gen 7 will truly be for the next smash.

Even if you assume smash started development very late and Sun/Moon wouldn't be "relevant" anymore, there is still the chance of a Pokemon Stars/Eclipse/whatevre popping up on 3DS Switch. Gen 7 has the potential to say "screw your window" and just stay relevant for the beginning to the end of the window.

Somewhat related, hoping for a good stage from Alola. Not a lot of standout locations that I would enjoy so i'm hoping Nintendo surprises me.

 

[N3ON]

I would juxtapose Sceptile and Decidueye by the fact that the former's popularity only arose due to remakes and typing while the latter's popularity formed much more organically, as one can witness by observing their popularity outside of a Smash context.

Prior to Sceptile's increase of favour due to Smash popularity it was, certainly not an unpopular Pokemon, but definitely not setting any polls on fire, where it would always be playing at least second-fiddle to Blaziken. If not for the remakes, and if not for Greninja and Charizard's places already on the roster, Blaziken would still be the clear most popular starter that gen.

It's true that without Greninja, Decidueye would not have much if any Smash popularity (along with all the other starters), however it would still remain the most popular starter of the gen, as that happened without aid of Smash. Read discussions of Pokefans who don't care about Smash to see for yourselves.

So I see it as one character being made popular because they fit enough predominantly fan-made criteria, whereas the other has organic popularity, which exists not just to serve some perceived opening in Smash. Decidueye is popular largely because it's a popular Pokemon, Sceptile was popular because people believed it was what Smash needed. And ofc there are exceptions to why people may support each character, but I believe that to be the big difference between the two.

There are people who may support Decidueye because they believe there is some divine right to "complete the trifecta" which overrides all, but then again there are people who seem to be glossing over the fact that Decidueye is legitimately one of the most popular Pokemon this gen and the most popular starter (not that it would get in solely due to being a starter - merely that starters have an advantage of getting large quantities of promotion), regardless of Smash, simply because they believe all support is linked to the invalid reasoning of some sacrosanct trifecta and the belief that all its popularity stemmed from there. And that Decidueye is no more than Sceptile's successor.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Noted. Will remember that for next time.

I actually considered that as well. Gen 7 could very well go the way of gen 3 or 5 as far as Smash content's concerned, which I mentioned somewhere before.

 

[Delzethin]

I wonder just how relevant Gen 7 will truly be for the next smash.

Even if you assume smash started development very late and Sun/Moon wouldn't be "relevant" anymore, there is still the chance of a Pokemon Stars/Eclipse/whatevre popping up on 3DS Switch. Gen 7 has the potential to say "screw your window" and just stay relevant for the beginning to the end of the window.

Well, I'm going off the "Smash 4.5" rumors, so Gen 7 would absolutely still matter for an enhanced port released within a year's time. But if we're left waiting another 3 years for a true Smash 5, and Gen 8 is around at that point, then we'd be best off looking at Gen 8 in that scenario and seeing who the standouts are there.

That's the thing when it comes to series with rotating casts like Pokémon or Fire Emblem or Xenoblade. It's not about who's made the most appearances, it's about who plays a prominent role in the story they take part in (and then you factor in the usual stuff like relevance, moveset potential, etc). Many speuclators try to take the "rules" of consistent-cast series like Mario or Kirby and apply them to rotating-cast series, but they miss the point and it leads to characters getting written off and deemed "undeserving" who shouldn't be.

 

[Bowserlick]

If there is a Smash 4 port on the Switch, the most popular starter of the newest game that completes the trifecta and offers an intuitive play-style from one of the more popular Nintendo franchises just makes sense.

 

[N3ON]

But then, if the main trait people are looking for like you claim is the plant-aspect of the character, why are they supporting Decidueye in the first place? Why not Isaac, who uses all sorts of plant-and-earth attacks and comes with an actual risk-management mechanic from Golden Sun? Why not Lip, who is literally a flower fairy and stands as the very face of what a damage-over-time fighter would be? There are other plant-based fighters that are also the main characters of their series, which have no reason to have to wait to get in until after a starter Pokemon that could potentially lose all relevance between the point their generation ends and their remakes begin.

Going beyond that, what does the plant aesthetic even mean for the roster?

Terrain control... healing properties (like Ivysaur in PM)... poison effects... constricting tools... expandable hitboxes with a growing plant, there's a decent amount to work with.

In general ofc. That's what plants can offer. Not all are necessarily relevant to Decidueye in particular. Though some of those things could be in the character's arsenal.

Not that my affinity towards Decidueye rests on its grass roots (heheh). If anything I think what it offers in terms of ghost moves is just as compelling. Much like Isaac, who also offers a lot of plant-based stuff that is of lesser importance to me, I just have an affinity for the character itself.

When it comes down to it, since Decidueye isn't outright blowing the rest of Generation 7 out of the water in terms of popularity, I'm still not convinced that people aren't using Decidueye as a quota before a character.

Everybody is using every Pokemon suggestion as a quota before a character, as if not for the quota of "new Pokemon gets the spot", there'd be a lot more consideration paid to old Pokemon with much more sizeable fanbases over the "who seems alright in this gen" kinda deal. Under the restrictions already in play, the bar for notoriety does get lowered all around.

I don't think any character this gen is blowing the others away in terms of popularity... but there are those that are among the most popular. Decidueye is one, and the other oft-suggested characters constitute most of the rest. Assuming we do get a Gen VII character (which we very well might not), we've just got to go with what we've got. Fwiw, I don't believe there was one Pokemon that blew the rest away last gen either during the times of speculation.

 

[Chandeelure]

While we're at it, let's just have Pikachu use some Psychic-type moves. He doesn't use them canonically, but hey, Sakurai can just make him do that, right?

Then what is this?!

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Then what is this?!

View attachment 127418

I don't think Psychic Type special attacks like Light Screen and Barrier really prove anything.

 

[Chandeelure]

I don't think Psychic Type special attacks like Light Screen and Barrier really prove anything.

It's a joke...

Also those aren't special attacks and Pikachu can't learn Barrier.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While Pikachu doesn't use Agility, his Quick Attack in Smash 64 is more or less what Agility is in Melee for Piachu.

Also, it's basically the same move bar one does damage compared to the other. It's not an entirely good example in this case.

That said, let's note that Pikachu in the anime actually did learn moves in the sense of upgraded versions. Using Agility let him learn Quick Attack, and using Quick Attack eventually let him learn Volt Tackle. Mind you, VT was just a promotion and an excuse to note he was definitely evolved from a Pichu holding a Light Ball.

I do agree some moves just plain don't work, though. I can't see Pikachu using something like Psyshock or Confusion. The thing is, with how the Mario series works, Daisy could easily use transformations. So using skills from Mario Land 1 isn't out there.

As for our grass owl, it's not a normal style of Grass user. It's not about vines and such. It's more about using leaves instead, as well as various kind of arrows. It's an archer that is good with unique leaves, along with other kinds of ghost and flying options. It's not really an "earth" user either. That's really more of what Isaac is. He also uses nature in some cases, but they're really bad comparisons due to their specific style of techniques.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If there is a Smash 4 port on the Switch, the most popular starter of the newest game that completes the trifecta and offers an intuitive play-style from one of the more popular Nintendo franchises just makes sense.

While I don't think the 'trifecta', as it were, is taken into account by the developers I do think that Dicidueye stands a really good chance because of just how fast and high his popularity skyrocketed on release. In all honesty I do love the idea of the grass, fire, water starter final evolution trio (that's a mouthfull) as I miss that idea from the Pokemon Trainer but I don't think it's an absolute must have.

I must say, good on them for showing off Pokemon's diversity so well. A normal/fairy, an electric, a psychic, a fire/flying, a water/dark, a fighting/steel, and now maybe a grass/ghost? That is a very large fraction of the types that are available in the game and while Jigglypuff doesn't exactly have 'fairy moves' it's still great representation of the series. I would complain about there not being representation for the Trainers but, honestly, I don't care that much. I looked it up and with those Pokemon, including Decidueye for the sake of speculation, Smash would represent 12 of the 18 different typings. That's damn good.

Smash is really bad about not diversifying and representing well each series it represents though. 2 Marios and Luigi, 2 Links (or 3 if you want to count Young), all of the Fire Emblem characters use Swords, Captain Falcon has nothing to do with his series almost, 2 Pits, and the Dorf of course. Pokemon is one of the lucky ones.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To note, Captain Falcon is more like a personification of his vehicle. His moves are pretty similar to what you can do in the game itself, namely his specials. This applies to Fox and Falco(and Wolf) as well. That's generally what is neat about their movesets. Otherwise, Captain Falcon was based upon Japanese Superheroes(Kamen Rider is a fairly obvious inspiration here, and they're very well known for riding a vehicle too). Only the Falcon Punch really comes out of nowhere. Raptor Boost, Falcon Kick, and Falcon Dive are pretty much variations of the boost mechanic, some with direct damage, while the other requires a throw to cause the damage itself. F-Zero itself is about extreme speed itself, which Falcon covers well. There's no question that it's possible more could be shown off from F-Zero, but when you think about it, the game itself doesn't really have much more than Boosts and spinning around to damage the opponent. Game series is amazing, but fairly simplistic in what you can do.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Don't forget about Smash Bros.'s origins as Dragon King: The Fighting Game.

It's very likely that a lot of Captain Falcon's moves were also taken from some of the fighters' movesets in legacy of its beta.

 

[Bowserlick]

Mach Rider would be a fitting rival and contrast to Captain Falcon.

A bitter warrior in a post-apocalyptic world versus a flamboyant bounty hunter with yellow nipple caps.

 

[Deleted member]

Just to bring a new topic to debate:

Should custom moves still be a thing or are better getting removed?

 

[Opossum]

Just to bring a new topic to debate:

Should custom moves still be a thing or are better getting removed?

It depends on a few things, but as it stands now, I'd prefer them to go, especially if they still need to be unlocked as tediously as in Smash 4...

 

[A Distant Demon]

Just to bring a new topic to debate:

Should custom moves still be a thing or are better getting removed?

IMO, if custom moves were to stay, they would probably need some big changes.

Staring out unlocked, being usable online, not being sort of tied to equipment, being easier to acess instead of needing to set them up in a completely seperate menu, and a few other things.

Based on the fact most of the above wouldnt happen, it would probably be best to just axe them and let palutena and the miis keep their most interesting/best moves (like super speed and lightweight instead of another counter)

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

They only exist to justify Palutena having a bigger moveset and Miis.

So they are kind of a lose lose situation either way.

 

[Opossum]

My best case scenario is Palutena getting Auto-Reticle/Reflect/Jump Glide/Light Weight and the Miis being reworked into a single, more true-to-their-games moveset.

I feel like at least that last part is more of a pipe dream though.

 

[Luminario]

They only exist to justify Palutena having a bigger moveset and Miis.

So they are kind of a lose lose situation either way.

I had this idea where Palutena traded Counter for Celestial Firework and traded Auto-Reticle for a stance move where she could use a multitude of other abilities depending on the button or direction input (A for Heavenly Light, up for Jump Glide, side for Superspeed, down for Lightweight, stuff like that)

I'd say that the custom moves should only return for Mii Fighters. They're inefficient and I don't think many people used them past the first days for the rest of the cast, especially since you have to go through the tedious trial of unlocking them.

 

[Bowserlick]

Custom movesets should only be a Mii thing.

But include smashes, tilts and aerials in addition to specials.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It would be nice if custom special moves did come back, but some of them did feel like complete trash. Some of the most notable examples include Spinphony, Warlock Thrust, and Dark Vault.

Even Armored Jet Hammer is just pathetic, as sacrificing attack power for super armor is not a good trade-off for Dedede. Likewise, Mega Gunman doesn't offer any advantages on offense, as the shots are actually weaker than that of the default Wild Gunman, "and" they take longer to fire.

Of course, they could always be fixed up to be not so atrocious, as I did modify Ganondorf's Warlock Thrust and Dark Vault to be better at making KOs.

 

[Baskerville]

Just to bring a new topic to debate:

Should custom moves still be a thing or are better getting removed?

Would rather have a full set of custom special moves unlocked after beating classic or all star mode with a character. So set 1 for Classic Mode and Set 2 for All Star Mode. Just to give more incentive for playing through them with every single character than just a single trophy, plus there is no RNG involved.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Would rather have a full set of custom special moves unlocked after beating classic or all star mode with a character. So set 1 for Classic Mode and Set 2 for All Star Mode. Just to give more incentive for playing through them with every single character than just a single trophy, plus there is no RNG involved.

I actually like that idea a lot.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Would rather have a full set of custom special moves unlocked after beating classic or all star mode with a character. So set 1 for Classic Mode and Set 2 for All Star Mode. Just to give more incentive for playing through them with every single character than just a single trophy, plus there is no RNG involved.

Either that, or remove all duplicates from the equation. You can never get duplicate CDs after all.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Honestly, if all custom moves were unlocked from the start and were separate from equipment, I would see zero problem with allowing them. Even better if one could select the moves while on the CSS.

Smash for Switch would end up being an entirely different metagame from Smash 4 if that was the case. So many characters would switch around which tiers they're in just because of new match-ups that are now accounted for.

 

[N3ON]

I'm very indifferent towards custom moves. In my Smash circle they were never used, so their future implementation really won't affect us at all. However for the sake of being a Smash completionist, the least they could go is make them less of a horrible slog to acquire.

However, for god sakes, please change Palutena's default moveset. It's so terrible and I was looking very much forward to that character.