Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[A Distant Demon]

Honestly, if we get no characters in a port and we have to wait for a true smash game (there better be one) which makes most of these threads pointless that would be hilarious.

Guess all we can do is wait for E3

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth Thanks HyperFalcon. That was informative and really refreshed my memory. If Meowth somehow gets a spot on the fighter roster (and he IS long overdue IMO), he would likely be based on Team Rocket Meowth and Pokeball Meowth.

Oh man... I really wish Meowth would get in Smash. It would be awesome if Meowth had a special move where he summons Wobbuffet to counter physical hits and reflect projectiles (and then he goes back in his Pokeball after defending Meowth).

I won't lie, he's the only Gen 1 Pokemon I honestly feel still belongs in the game as a fighter. Back before Smash 4 released, I made a roster that had Giovanni as the new Pokemon Trainer, using mainly Meowth, but has some other Pokemon for moves. Like Golbat or Crobat for a recovery.

 

[Caryslan]

I'm not sure if this means anything either way as far as a Smash 4 port goes, whether it exists or even if it will have new characters. By my understanding, female Corrin is quite popular (far more than male Wii Fit Trainer, female Villager, female Robin, etc.), and I guess they're taking advantage of that.

I could be wrong, but ins't female Corrin more popular then the male one?

 

[A Distant Demon]

I could be wrong, but ins't female Corrin more popular then the male one?

Immensely.

Female Corrin is so much more popular it isn't even funny.



I wonder if a new smash would bother to change who is the "main" corrin. Feels like a very not-sakurai thing to do though

 

[Arcadenik]

I won't lie, he's the only Gen 1 Pokemon I honestly feel still belongs in the game as a fighter. Back before Smash 4 released, I made a roster that had Giovanni as the new Pokemon Trainer, using mainly Meowth, but has some other Pokemon for moves. Like Golbat or Crobat for a recovery.

Same here. 18 years after the original Smash game and I am still supporting Meowth.

A playable Meowth in Smash just feels so right. Even Meowth agrees.

That's what Meowth should do when he wins a match.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'm genuinely wondering how aware Nintendo (and by extension Sakurai) is of the character-drivenness of Smash's fanbase. If they create a port of Smash for Switch without any new additions whatsoever, it won't sell anywhere near as well. With the amount of players that have Smash 3DS and the attachment rate of Wii U owners' version of Smash (as well as it already being the basis of competitive right now), Smash for Switch needs new characters to get a chunk of its fanbase. If they don't, the game won't start selling until additional DLC comes out and adds more characters.

I can only speak for myself, of course, when I say that as an owner of Smash Wii U and a Switch, I currently have no reason to get Smash for Switch for the same reason that I've very little reason to consider Mario Kart 8 Deluxe when I already had it and all the DLC on Wii U. If the game adds one or two characters, I'd begrudgingly purchase the port just so that I can keep up with the full roster and stay relevant to my local FGC. If it adds a fair amount of characters, though, I'd be getting the game for the reason of actively wanting it and the hype from a dynamically changed meta.

Switch owners who had a Wii U will be thrilled, yeah, but if the system wants to come out of the year with a strong start, they need to appeal to more than just casuals and those who didn't already have it.

Also--as far as Meowth, what would he do in terms of his mechanics?

Like, I get he's popular in the anime and a well-recognized Pokemon, but if he's not getting any special treatment from Sakurai and Game Freak after all this time, I'd assume it'd have to mean he'd only be getting in on the same basis as other characters from other series. Hence, scratch-attacks hardly mean a thing if they don't ultimately make him a character with a gameplay purpose. Meta Knight, for example, is already all about being a small character with swift, often multi-hitbox cuts, so Meowth cat-scratching and pulling out a few Team Rocket gadgets alone won't sell him as a distinct addition to the cast.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

DAWN OF THE FIRST MONTH

72 days remain

 

[N3ON]

I'm genuinely wondering how aware Nintendo (and by extension Sakurai) is of the character-drivenness of Smash's fanbase. If they create a port of Smash for Switch without any new additions whatsoever, it won't sell anywhere near as well. With the amount of players that have Smash 3DS and the attachment rate of Wii U owners' version of Smash (as well as it already being the basis of competitive right now), Smash for Switch needs new characters to get a chunk of its fanbase. If they don't, the game won't start selling until additional DLC comes out and adds more characters.

I can only speak for myself, of course, when I say that as an owner of Smash Wii U and a Switch, I currently have no reason to get Smash for Switch for the same reason that I've very little reason to consider Mario Kart 8 Deluxe when I already had it and all the DLC on Wii U. If the game adds one or two characters, I'd begrudgingly purchase the port just so that I can keep up with the full roster and stay relevant to my local FGC. If it adds a fair amount of characters, though, I'd be getting the game for the reason of actively wanting it and the hype from a dynamically changed meta.

Switch owners who had a Wii U will be thrilled, yeah, but if the system wants to come out of the year with a strong start, they need to appeal to more than just casuals and those who didn't already have it.

I would say they're very aware. This time around they devoted nearly all promotional resources into the characters. No longer is the intro, or in-game cutscenes where they decide to invest, it's the trailers for the characters. It's making the characters look good, and through them, selling the game. I'd say that factor alone shows how Nintendo knows what pushes this series, and where to look and what to expect for future iterations, the port included.

However, additionally, we can look at the DLC. Content that needs to stand on its own to sell. What, again, was the focus? It was new characters, and when it wasn't, it was being able to dress up the old characters as new characters. So, in a way, new characters were still the draw. And, when it wasn't characters, it was the thing people by and large care about next: stages. Did they add new items? No. New modes? Barely, and for free (therefore not attempting to court many people with it). New music? Only when it served the new stage (or for promotional reasons). New trophies? Not standalone ones. This isn't even to mention the ballot, which was 100% character-focused.

And lastly, amiibos. Nintendo obviously sensed a consumer interest in the characters from Smash to the extent that they released or will release an amiibo of every character in the game. If nothing else this and DLC show Nintendo there is a large monetary sway behind these characters, and what the market values in Smash.

So I'm very sure Nintendo is aware of the driving force behind the series. The only way I see the port not having at least one new character is if Nintendo wants to invest the absolute bare minimum in bringing this game over. And if MK8D is any indication, they won't be.

 

[Arcadenik]

Also--as far as Meowth, what would he do in terms of his mechanics?

Like, I get he's popular in the anime and a well-recognized Pokemon, but if he's not getting any special treatment from Sakurai and Game Freak after all this time, I'd assume it'd have to mean he'd only be getting in on the same basis as other characters from other series. Hence, scratch-attacks hardly mean a thing if they don't ultimately make him a character with a gameplay purpose. Meta Knight, for example, is already all about being a small character with swift, often multi-hitbox cuts, so Meowth cat-scratching and pulling out a few Team Rocket gadgets alone won't sell him as a distinct addition to the cast.

• Meta Knight uses a sword. Meowth uses claws.
• Meta Knight uses one hand to swing his sword. Meowth uses both hands (or paws) to scratch.
• Meta Knight can fly. Meowth cannot fly.
• Meta Knight cannot wall jump or wall cling. Meowth can crawl, wall jump, wall cling, and wall climb (potential new technique) like a cat.
• Meta Knight has no projectile moves. Meowth throws coins (like Pokeball Meowth in Smash 64, Brawl, and SSB4).
• Meta Knight cannot pounce like a cat. Meowth can pounce like a cat (or more like Cat Mario if you need help visualizing Meowth's pounce animation).
• Meta Knight has no counterattack moves. Meowth has Wobbuffet who unexpectedly pops out of his Pokeball to counter physical hits (Counter) and reflect projectiles (Mirror Coat).

Meowth would have a vastly different playstyle even if he is another "small character with swift, often multi-hitbox cuts". You wouldn't be able to play Meowth the same way you play Meta Knight even if all his normal moves are nothing but "cat-scratching".



You wanted something to sell Meowth as a distinct addition to the cast, right? Well, since Sakurai has a habit of basing playable Pokemon on the anime... and that's where Wobbuffet comes in.

Wobbuffet could set Meowth apart from the other fighters with counter special moves. Wobbuffet could be Meowth's detachable counter move. Wobbuffet could be used like Peach's Toad counter move but Meowth can leave Wobbuffet at the spot where he summoned him, making him function like Pokeball Wobbuffet in Melee and Brawl, and Meowth can call Wobbuffet back to his Pokeball at anytime... so Meowth can summon him again later. This means Meowth could set Wobbuffet up as a temporary stage hazard that returns projectiles.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

• Meta Knight uses a sword. Meowth uses claws.
• Meta Knight uses one hand to swing his sword. Meowth uses both hands (or paws) to scratch.
• Meta Knight can fly. Meowth cannot fly.
• Meta Knight cannot wall jump or wall cling. Meowth can crawl, wall jump, wall cling, and wall climb (potential new technique) like a cat.
• Meta Knight has no projectile moves. Meowth throws coins (like Pokeball Meowth in Smash 64, Brawl, and SSB4).
• Meta Knight cannot pounce like a cat. Meowth can pounce like a cat (or more like Cat Mario if you need help visualizing Meowth's pounce animation).
• Meta Knight has no counterattack moves. Meowth has Wobbuffet who unexpectedly pops out of his Pokeball to counter physical hits (Counter) and reflect projectiles (Mirror Coat).

Meowth would have a vastly different playstyle even if he is another "small character with swift, often multi-hitbox cuts". You wouldn't be able to play Meowth the same way you play Meta Knight even if all his normal moves are nothing but "cat-scratching".



You wanted something to sell Meowth as a distinct addition to the cast, right? Well, since Sakurai has a habit of basing playable Pokemon on the anime... and that's where Wobbuffet comes in.

Wobbuffet could set Meowth apart from the other fighters with counter special moves. Wobbuffet could be Meowth's detachable counter move. Wobbuffet could be used like Peach's Toad counter move but Meowth can leave Wobbuffet at the spot where he summoned him, making him function like Pokeball Wobbuffet in Melee and Brawl, and Meowth can call Wobbuffet back to his Pokeball at anytime... so Meowth can summon him again later. This means Meowth could set Wobbuffet up as a temporary stage hazard that returns projectiles.

Meowth should also make extra coins over anyone in Coin Mode. Albeit, obviously he wouldn't get you extra coins for your regular amount in the game, but maybe he could manipulate the randomizer slightly to make it easier to get coins. The lottery thing in Smash 4, I mean.

I also like the idea of him calling out other TR Pokemon to help for a few moves. The Wobbuffet idea is great as well. It's akin to Luma, but serves a different purpose. His grab animation could involve tossing Ekans/Arbok/Seviper out(maybe depends the costume? Or it could be random). As noted, Crobat makes a great Recovery. Koffing/Weezing could potentially provide a trap move, akin to a regular Counter attack, maybe even giving them a weak poison. I forget how many similar Poison Pokemon TR has that could do that. It could be random and some are stronger than others. Weezing could be the most powerful of them. I know a lot of Pokemon can learn Toxic, so the options are pretty endless. As for a Final Smash, basically summon freaking everything for a multi-attack, akin to Ike's Final Smash, which would be a series of attacks ending with one final blow.

 

[Kirbeh]

• Meta Knight uses a sword. Meowth uses claws.
• Meta Knight uses one hand to swing his sword. Meowth uses both hands (or paws) to scratch.
• Meta Knight can fly. Meowth cannot fly.
• Meta Knight cannot wall jump or wall cling. Meowth can crawl, wall jump, wall cling, and wall climb (potential new technique) like a cat.
• Meta Knight has no projectile moves. Meowth throws coins (like Pokeball Meowth in Smash 64, Brawl, and SSB4).
• Meta Knight cannot pounce like a cat. Meowth can pounce like a cat (or more like Cat Mario if you need help visualizing Meowth's pounce animation).
• Meta Knight has no counterattack moves. Meowth has Wobbuffet who unexpectedly pops out of his Pokeball to counter physical hits (Counter) and reflect projectiles (Mirror Coat).

Meowth would have a vastly different playstyle even if he is another "small character with swift, often multi-hitbox cuts". You wouldn't be able to play Meowth the same way you play Meta Knight even if all his normal moves are nothing but "cat-scratching".



You wanted something to sell Meowth as a distinct addition to the cast, right? Well, since Sakurai has a habit of basing playable Pokemon on the anime... and that's where Wobbuffet comes in.

Wobbuffet could set Meowth apart from the other fighters with counter special moves. Wobbuffet could be Meowth's detachable counter move. Wobbuffet could be used like Peach's Toad counter move but Meowth can leave Wobbuffet at the spot where he summoned him, making him function like Pokeball Wobbuffet in Melee and Brawl, and Meowth can call Wobbuffet back to his Pokeball at anytime... so Meowth can summon him again later. This means Meowth could set Wobbuffet up as a temporary stage hazard that returns projectiles.

While I agree that an interesting moveset could be made for Meowth, and that it's legacy within the anime makes it at least fairly iconic, I highly doubt it'd ever get in with the Wobbuffet idea. (If it were to get in at all which isn't very likely as things currently stand.)

They do use the anime as a source for how Pokemon should generally be portrayed, but they don't design them with intent of being actual counterparts to specific Pokemon from the anime. The anime is a general source of inspiration not the basis for how the Pokemon are designed. The groundwork is layed out by the games, the anime is a source for how the Pokemon is going to sound, how it might animate, general mannerisms that can be applied to the species as a whole. If Meowth were to be considered, it has to be on it's own merits as a Pokemon in general, not those of a specific anime-only individual.

It's an interesting idea, but it isn't something that is unique to Meowth. It's not even Meowth's at all. It's trying to shoehorn the anime's Team Rocket into a Smash character. Tacking on Wobbuffet & co. to try to make a case for Meowth hurts it in the long run as it just makes it seem like Meowth has nothing to offer on its own. Not to mention the idea isn't even based on anything within the Pokemon games.

If you want to make the case for Meowth, you need to pull from what it can do on it's own. And you need to pull from Meowth the species, not the individual from the anime.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Everything Kirbeh said, especially in regards to how tacking Wobbuffet into a moveset isn't key to what the character would be and how it only serves to undermine what actual abilities Meowth itself would have. All the Pokemon in Smash are based on themselves as a species, not a specific anime-only individual, and further goes to not represent what Meowth in the game are even like.

I'm unfortunately convinced that Meowth is another example of a character that can't dance: Capable of a fighting moveset, sure, but not capable of standing out in the cast without taking so many creative liberties that the moveset is no longer anything but the core of what Meowth is like in the games.

On that note of in the games... Aside from being your mother's pet in Pokemon Sun & Moon, has Meowth ever had a notable role since being in Team Rocket in Pokemon Yellow and being a potential starter in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon? A cancelled game doesn't speak a whole lot beyond "we almost made him objectively distinct over 800 other Pokemon by starring in his own game...almost, but didn't." Considering that Star Fox 2, a completed but likewise cancelled game, has zero bearing or acknowledgement in Smash Bros., I wouldn't say it's unfair to likewise judge Meowth's Party as equally inconsequential to his chances.

Save for Jigglypuff (who was added late in Smash 64 for being easy to develop and following her popularity in the anime) and Greninja (who was literally selected based off his concept art and reference information before X/Y came out), all the other Pokemon in Smash have been added due to their relevance within the games, especially during the current Generation of each Smash game. It's not as if Meowth is in the running for being added on either of those aforementioned merits, either. Relevant to the games are the series mascot, most well-recognized starters, Legendary poster-boy, and frequently recurring comp-mon. Meowth doesn't exactly have anything beyond "anime break-out mon", if you wouldn't already argue Pikachu as the face of the anime to begin with.

I know I'm giving Meowth a hard time here, but I'm only speaking why I have my doubts for Meowth when he already has so many flaws in a vacuum that getting into comparing him to new choices in other series outright becomes an extremely up-hill battle.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Yeah, Meowth might be better based more off the games than the anime.

Sakurai would probably want to give it its (pseudo-)signature move, like he gave .

 

[Arcadenik]

The Wobbuffet idea is only one move, people. The rest are all Meowth's own moves and abilities.

The normal moves are mostly swift multi-hitbox cat scratches. Remember my infamous "Meowth have many different versions of Pay Day" moveset? It's still in the moveset. Neutral Aerial could be Meowth throwing coins like it did in Smash 64. Smash moves could be Meowth throwing coins like it did in the Pokemon games.

And for the special moves...

B: Wobbuffet
Wobbuffet could set Meowth apart from the other fighters with counter special moves. Wobbuffet could be Meowth's detachable counter move. Wobbuffet could be used like Peach's Toad counter move but Meowth can leave Wobbuffet at the spot where he summoned him, making him function like Pokeball Wobbuffet in Melee and Brawl, and Meowth can call Wobbuffet back to his Pokeball at anytime... so Meowth can summon him again later. This means Meowth could set Wobbuffet up as a temporary stage hazard that returns projectiles.

It's also Neutral Special because I want Kirby to summon Wobbuffet.

Side+B: Pay Day
Meowth throws coins the same way it did in Brawl and SSB4. Hold down the button to keep throwing coins till he runs out of coins.

Up+B: Fury Swipes
Meowth is the Scratch Cat Pokemon. It's not enough for Meowth to have normal moves with cat scratches... he needs at least one special move that shows how painful those claws can be. Meowth jumps and scratches multiple times as he recovers.

Down+B: Feint Attack
Meowth should have a move that shows how nimble and agile the Meowth species can be. Meowth does a back flip and then pounces on the enemy Cat Mario style. The player should press the button again to make Meowth pounce after back flipping. It could be compared to Zero Suit Samus's Flip Jump, Mii Brawler's Feint Jump, and Sheik's Bouncing Fish. Since it's a Dark-type move, maybe Meowth could have shadowy images of Meowth trailing behind him... kinda like what you see trailing behind Fox during his Fox Illusion.

And yes, Meowth should also make koban coins over anyone whenever he hits in any other game modes and make extra Smash coins over anyone in Coin Mode like Verde Coeden Scalesworth said. That's how the character danced in my mind. It is part of the infamous "Meowth have many different versions of Pay Day" moveset.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Why would Meowth in any way be similar to Meta Knight and why would it matter when Corrin is another visually interesting Marth.
I think comparing the cat and the bat is really reaching for the sake of reaching.

Sakurai had a flippin seizure over Geno's arm cannon, despite being featured on multiple characters already so I'm sure he won't discard Meowth for being vaguely similar to Knight.

Meta Knight seems more like a wall/tornado of slashing hitboxes, which helps him with edgeguarding whereas Meowth would have more diagonal blitzes to make him scratch all around the battlefield, being more focused on keeping the opponents within his reach and on-stage all the time instead of going for "that one push" to edgeguard conversion like how Meta Knight shreds his foes.
Yes, they share slashing, but even on a basic gameplan level they can be miles away.

Same with Corn and Marth.
Corn wants to keep the opponents within optimal range for combos whereas Matth wants to keep the opponent away at the optimal range to force them to the ledge or off-stage.
Same visuals, same moves, whole nother gameplan

Now the question is whether "hyperactive scratches" dances enough, but his chances stand on them own and don't hinge on Meta Knight at all

 

[wedl!!]

In response to the Scorpion talk from a few pages back: I quite honestly think at this point there's a better chance of an ArcSys or SNK character appearing than Scorpion.

I still think Heihachi has a pretty okay case for getting in Smash but I think that, despite my bias, there are plenty of characters that should be introduced before him.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Why would Meowth in any way be similar to Meta Knight and why would it matter when Corrin is another visually interesting Marth.
I think comparing the cat and the bat is really reaching for the sake of reaching.

Sakurai had a flippin seizure over Geno's arm cannon, despite being featured on multiple characters already so I'm sure he won't discard Meowth for being vaguely similar to Knight.

Meta Knight seems more like a wall/tornado of slashing hitboxes, which helps him with edgeguarding whereas Meowth would have more diagonal blitzes to make him scratch all around the battlefield, being more focused on keeping the opponents within his reach and on-stage all the time instead of going for "that one push" to edgeguard conversion like how Meta Knight shreds his foes.
Yes, they share slashing, but even on a basic gameplan level they can be miles away.

Same with Corn and Marth.
Corn wants to keep the opponents within optimal range for combos whereas Matth wants to keep the opponent away at the optimal range to force them to the ledge or off-stage.
Same visuals, same moves, whole nother gameplan

Now the question is whether "hyperactive scratches" dances enough, but his chances stand on them own and don't hinge on Meta Knight at all

I hope those scratches can either pierce Defense, because I'm about to Wall you off with all this text otherwise. Geddit because that was a competitive Pokemon joke ehue

Meta Knight's "that one push to edgeguard" is universal across the roster, you know. Any character can ledge-trump and Meta Knight doesn't even get a Meteor smash to use for said edgeguards. Meta Knight is much more about bait-and-punish, using his quick movement speed to close gaps and quickly get in an attack between an opponent's attacks. This includes several specials which give him offensive movement options and, yes, focused on keeping the opponents within his reach on the stage. The only time Meta Knight's keeping you off the stage is if he's edgeguarding or performing a stairway combo. You're otherwise stuck on-stage with him until the right percent.

Likewise, Marth and Corrin are both zoning characters but go about it in entirely different ways. Marth requires fundamental spacing ability to optimize damage by hitting with a specific hitbox on the tip of his sword. The Marth will always be trying to keep the opponent in a very specific distance away from him. Corrin on the other hand takes towards a much more distant approach, using the sheer range his dragon-limb attacks offer and the projectile of Dragon Fang to outright play keepaway while pressuring the opponent to approach. His combo game isn't as strong and has a closed in damage floor and ceiling as a result. I don't even know where you're getting "same moves" from, since a moveset consists of more than a counter. Not even getting into the aesthetic difference of the characters (Dragon-parts are the same thing as holy swords? Okay...?), Marth and Corrin very little in common.

I don't know how much Smash Bros. you actually play, but I'm picking up very little mechanical understanding of the game... Either way, I'm not saying there's an entire basis of Meowth not getting into Smash because of Meta Knight at all. That's straw-manning my argument. I mention Meta Knight as a mere example of what I'm talking about for Smash as a whole: other characters and how their existence makes Meowth itself that much harder of a sell.

Okay, overview of Meowth in the Pokemon games. Looking at Meowth, we have a Normal-type with poor stats and hard to translate-into-Smash abilities in Pickup, Technician and Unnerve. It has no alternate forms, no exclusive Z-moves, no signature items, nothing mechanically to make it stand out aside from Pay Day, which already encompasses what it's capable of as a Pokeball Pokemon. All that leaves is its Dex information, which is all just "it likes shiny and round objects" without the slightest bit of exaggeration. As far as Pokemon go, Meowth leaves very little to work with outside of using scratch attacks and something to do with coins.

So then, that puts us in a position of, if we are to make a moveset that stays true to Meowth's character and powers, would primarily consist of quick, short-range and often multi-hitting standard attacks a la its scratches. That not an unviable basis on its own, but then we get into how there are other characters that already take up a similar style of gameplay. Your Meta Knights, your Diddy Kongs, your Pits, hell, even your Pikachu--a lot of the gameplay concepts Meowth can explore have already been explored. Multi-hitting attacks that promote bait-and-punish, rush-down, and/or aerial combo attacks are what all of these characters already have in addition to some of them having similar body builds. It's for the same reason that Chrom was rejected as "just an inbetween of Marth and Ike", because Meowth itself will likely just end up as an inbetween of some of the aforementioned characters. Do they specifically scratch to attack? No, aesthetically they aren't the exact same. Do they already cover the various aspects of a character whose only battle-relevant powers are scratching? Absolutely, his gameplay does nothing to deviate himself mechanically.

So where does that leave Meowth if he can't mechanically stand out from the cast? If the answer is creative liberties and making the character just a vessel for a moveset that isn't even core to who they are, that's the sign of a character that doesn't "dance", and something Sakurai is going to avoid like the plague. With the creative liberties taken in Smash, characters at least generally play as a fluid translation from how they would in their games. If Meowth doesn't have a solid concept, not an aesthetic, to look at as the basis of his moveset's design, he's not going to be a viable addition to the cast.

tl;dr
"Hyperactive Scratches" is the exact same case of "Tomboy Flower Power" and "Marth but more like Ike" topic with Daisy and Chrom several pages back. Even if a moveset can exist of them in Smash, if it doesn't translate to what they as a character as specifically known for in the games, it's no longer their character. If staying true to their character likewise offers very little to the roster, then they're probably not a character that should be added in the first place.

 

[Zerp]

On the topic of , wouldn't something simple revolving around "mischief" or being a trickster fit him better than being "hyperactive scratcher"? With moves like Thief, Fake-Out, Nasty Plot, Foul Play, Taunt, and Swagger in his movepool, I think Meowth could fit that role pretty well, it definitely meshes with the anime character, and it's a lot more unique than just scratching things.

 

[Deleted member]

Save for Jigglypuff (who was added late in Smash 64 for being easy to develop and following her popularity in the anime) and Greninja (who was literally selected based off his concept art and reference information before X/Y came out), all the other Pokemon in Smash have been added due to their relevance within the games, especially during the current Generation of each Smash game. It's not as if Meowth is in the running for being added on either of those aforementioned merits, either. Relevant to the games are the series mascot, most well-recognized starters, Legendary poster-boy, and frequently recurring comp-mon. Meowth doesn't exactly have anything beyond "anime break-out mon", if you wouldn't already argue Pikachu as the face of the anime to begin with.

Incorrect.
It's actually the inverse with Greninja (for the exact same reason you said) and Pokémon Trainer being the exceptions (and even then, the Trainer and his Pokémon were added to represent a (poorly-executed and wisely scrapped in Smash 4) mechanic rather than because of their "relevance").

]Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things.

He is also on record for saying Mewtwo's starring role in the first movie was the main reason for why he wanted to include it in Smash as opposed to some "Legendary poster-boy" logic, and Lucario was part of Brawl's planned roster before it made any sort of recurring appearance. He was decided for Brawl in direct relation to his movie, which was being released in theaters within the same month that Brawl's roster draft had been finalized.
This is why the two draw heavily from their anime counterparts.


The better argument to make in this case is that despite Meowth having just as much "stardom" as Pikachu within the anime, there has to be a reason why it has continuously been passed over as a playable Smash fighter, even as a secondary addition to a "fresh face". And that's where your next post comes in.

 

[Arcadenik]

So... it's not good enough for a character to not be a clone... a character should be mechanically unique from other characters.

Since Lucina got in Smash as a literal Marth clone and Sakurai justified her inclusion was that her sword doesn't have a tipper. That's literally it. Lucina is mechanically unique from Marth because of that.

Because Meowth was compared to Meta Knight for some reason, let's make Meowth mechanically unique from Meta Knight... by making Meowth a flightless Meta Knight with tippers in his claws.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

So... it's not good enough for a character to not be a clone... a character should be mechanically unique from other characters.

Since Lucina got in Smash as a literal Marth clone and Sakurai justified her inclusion was that her sword doesn't have a tipper. That's literally it. Lucina is mechanically unique from Marth because of that.

Because Meowth was compared to Meta Knight for some reason, let's make Meowth mechanically unique from Meta Knight... by making Meowth a flightless Meta Knight with tippers in his claws.

You actually know about Lucina's circumstances for getting into Smash and that you're just speaking in satire, I really hope.

The clones are evidence that, behind all the circumstances of being a Director with a clear vision for how characters should be, sometimes Sakurai has to work around the realities of being a game developer.

 

[Deleted member]

So... it's not good enough for a character to not be a clone... a character should be mechanically unique from other characters.

Since Lucina got in Smash as a literal Marth clone and Sakurai justified her inclusion was that her sword doesn't have a tipper. That's literally it. Lucina is mechanically unique from Marth because of that.

You cannot be serious right now.
Lucina was supposed to be a costume. She was separated from Marth due to the slight difference in properties she had during development.
The justification comes from why she is a separate clone rather than a costume like she was intended to be, not for her being included period.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You cannot be serious right now.
Lucina was supposed to be a costume. She was separated from Marth due to the slight difference in properties she had during development.
The justification comes from why she is a separate clone rather than a costume like she was intended to be, not for her being included period.

He's not. His point is that characters need to be interesting, but don't have to be super unique. The trollface does help in this case.

Obviously clones exist. You will see many moves re-used with similar animations, and not just because they used that character to somewhat make another one. You can see many similar moves with Fox, Falco, Wolf(and I'm not just talking about the specials either. Wolf's Dash Attack is pretty much Fox's Up Smash), Falcon and Samus share a few moves(suggesting he partially used Falcon to help make Samus), Jigglypuff shares some with Kirby(and still does), and Mario and Luigi are actual clones in the first Smash.

The thing is, a lot of Counter moves are vastly similar, but you'll still notice that despite this, Robin is not a clone at all of anyone. A bigger focus on their overall moveset is more important. Some characters sharing similar moves doesn't inherently mean much, which I think is what Arcadenik is overall getting at.

As for Meowth, the reason for my personal suggestions is that if he's going to be Anime-base at all, one thing to note is that he's the de facto leader of the trio, pretty much knows how to properly act like a Pokemon Trainer(never mind talking), and can easily command other Rocket Pokemon due to his authority. So there is logic for him to use other Pokemon in his moveset. Of course, if based upon the games, that's an entirely different thing to go with. IMO, a mix of both is overall good. I do think he should have his signature Pay Day, even if he's mostly based upon the anime. Now, the fact that Meowth is mostly known and most popular due to the anime does make it an easy choice for what to base him mainly upon, but to be fair, there are factors beyond "what they were most known as", which you already went into in an earlier post. Pokemon Trainer possibly had influence from the anime to a small degree to make which exact Pokemon he had a very easy choice, but beyond that, he's clearly game-based, specifically using a lot of Generation 3 design choices. No need to go into the other Pokemon, as you covered it just fine.

 

[Arcadenik]

Meowth's Pickup ability could be translated into a special move where Meowth gets close to a character and picks up an item. I guess Meowth could bring items to the match even with items turned off. Is it cheating when a character brings items to a For Glory match? Yes, but the Team Rocket trio like to cheat.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Meowth's Pickup ability could be translated into a special move where Meowth gets close to a character and picks up an item. I guess Meowth could bring items to the match even with items turned off. Is it cheating when a character brings items to a For Glory match? Yes, but the Team Rocket trio like to cheat.

This is a balance nightmare and would never ever be done.

And if it was, it would either
A. be horrible for game balance
B. be so horribly gimped because it only allows a select few items it would defeat the purpose and thus not get done.

 

[Arcadenik]

It could be done. Like in the Pokemon games, certain wild Pokemon hold certain items... so translating that concept to Smash... certain characters would have certain items for Meowth to Pickup.

For example... Meowth could Pickup:

• a Fire Flower item from Mario
• a Ray Gun item from Duck Hunt
• a Lip's Stick item from Jigglypuff
• a Banana Peel item from Diddy Kong
• a Superspicy Curry item from Charizard
• a Beam Sword item from Shulk
• a Bunny Hood item from Sonic
• a Timer item from Bayonetta
• a Mechakoopa item from Bowser Jr.
• a Pitfall item from Villager
• a Vegetable item from Peach
• a Boomerang item from Link
• a Screw Attack item from Samus
• a Galaga item from Pac-Man
• a Smoke Ball item from Greninja
• a Gyro item from R.O.B.
• a Capsule item from Dr. Mario
• an Egg item from Yoshi
• an Unira item from King Dedede
• a Star Rod item from Rosalina
• a Hothead item from Wii Fit Trainer
• a Super Scope item from Captain Falcon
• a Lightning item from Pikachu
• a Freezie item from Ice Climbers
• a Mr. Saturn item from Ness

 

[A Distant Demon]

It could be done. Like in the Pokemon games, certain wild Pokemon hold certain items... so translating that concept to Smash... certain characters would have certain items for Meowth to Pickup.

For example... Meowth could Pickup:

• a Fire Flower item from Mario
• a Ray Gun item from Duck Hunt
• a Lip's Stick item from Jigglypuff
• a Banana Peel item from Diddy Kong
• a Superspicy Curry item from Charizard
• a Beam Sword item from Shulk
• a Bunny Hood item from Sonic
• a Timer item from Bayonetta
• a Mechakoopa item from Bowser Jr.
• a Pitfall item from Villager
• a Vegetable item from Peach
• a Boomerang item from Link
• a Screw Attack item from Samus
• a Galaga item from Pac-Man
• a Smoke Ball item from Greninja
• a Gyro item from R.O.B.
• a Capsule item from Dr. Mario
• an Egg item from Yoshi
• an Unira item from King Dedede
• a Star Rod item from Rosalina
• a Hothead item from Wii Fit Trainer
• a Super Scope item from Captain Falcon
• a Lightning item from Pikachu
• a Freezie item from Ice Climbers
• a Mr. Saturn item from Ness

timers, curry and lightning in competitive matches


hoooo boy im going to have nightmares about this idea for weeks.

 

[Opossum]

It could be done. Like in the Pokemon games, certain wild Pokemon hold certain items... so translating that concept to Smash... certain characters would have certain items for Meowth to Pickup.

For example... Meowth could Pickup:

• a Fire Flower item from Mario
• a Ray Gun item from Duck Hunt
• a Lip's Stick item from Jigglypuff
• a Banana Peel item from Diddy Kong
• a Superspicy Curry item from Charizard
• a Beam Sword item from Shulk
• a Bunny Hood item from Sonic
• a Timer item from Bayonetta
• a Mechakoopa item from Bowser Jr.
• a Pitfall item from Villager
• a Vegetable item from Peach
• a Boomerang item from Link
• a Screw Attack item from Samus
• a Galaga item from Pac-Man
• a Smoke Ball item from Greninja
• a Gyro item from R.O.B.
• a Capsule item from Dr. Mario
• an Egg item from Yoshi
• an Unira item from King Dedede
• a Star Rod item from Rosalina
• a Hothead item from Wii Fit Trainer
• a Super Scope item from Captain Falcon
• a Lightning item from Pikachu
• a Freezie item from Ice Climbers
• a Mr. Saturn item from Ness

The only precedence for characters summoning items is Peach's Turnip special, and even then, getting a Mr. Saturn or Bob-Omb is abysmally low in chance. Something like this would be a balancing nightmare and would never be in the game.

 

[Arcadenik]

timers, curry and lightning in competitive matches


hoooo boy im going to have nightmares about this idea for weeks.

Nah... that will be a nightmare specifically for Bayonetta mains, Charizard mains, and Pikachu mains.

For example... Meowth vs Mario... Mario mains don't need to worry about Timers, Lightnings, or Superspicy Curries. They just need to expect that Meowth will bring Fire Flowers to the match.

 

[Kirbeh]

Meowth's Pickup ability could be translated into a special move where Meowth gets close to a character and picks up an item. I guess Meowth could bring items to the match even with items turned off. Is it cheating when a character brings items to a For Glory match? Yes, but the Team Rocket trio like to cheat.

I think the main issue here is your insistence on using the anime's Team Rocket as the primary source for Meowth's design. The anime does play a role as has been said before but not in the way or to the extent you're trying to push for Meowth. Major roles in the anime and other complimentary media do help a Pokemon's chances and Mewoth is certainly iconic due to this, however the anime is used as inspiration for Pokemon's aesthetic design, not their gameplay*.(Not to say the anime never has influence here, but it's not the primary source.) Yes as a whole they do use a blend of source material from both the games and the anime, but your design for Meowth is heavily based on the anime, and in this case a specific Meowth. The Pokemon in Smash are not counterparts to the anime characters. Remember; references and loose inspiration are not the same as using the anime as the primary source for design.

It could be done. Like in the Pokemon games, certain wild Pokemon hold certain items... so translating that concept to Smash... certain characters would have certain items for Meowth to Pickup.

For example... Meowth could Pickup:

• a Fire Flower item from Mario
• a Ray Gun item from Duck Hunt
• a Lip's Stick item from Jigglypuff
• a Banana Peel item from Diddy Kong
• a Superspicy Curry item from Charizard
• a Beam Sword item from Shulk
• a Bunny Hood item from Sonic
• a Timer item from Bayonetta
• a Mechakoopa item from Bowser Jr.
• a Pitfall item from Villager
• a Vegetable item from Peach
• a Boomerang item from Link
• a Screw Attack item from Samus
• a Galaga item from Pac-Man
• a Smoke Ball item from Greninja
• a Gyro item from R.O.B.
• a Capsule item from Dr. Mario
• an Egg item from Yoshi
• an Unira item from King Dedede
• a Star Rod item from Rosalina
• a Hothead item from Wii Fit Trainer
• a Super Scope item from Captain Falcon
• a Lightning item from Pikachu
• a Freezie item from Ice Climbers
• a Mr. Saturn item from Ness

I'm in full agreement with Zebei on this. This while interesting on paper, would be an absolute mess in-game. It'd be horribly balanced.

I'd either suggest giving Meowth a small pool of items from the Pokemon games that he can pull at random similar to Peach's Vegetable or come up with a different move altogether.

EDIT:

Nah... that will be a nightmare specifically for Bayonetta mains, Charizard mains, and Pikachu mains.

For example... Meowth vs Mario... Mario mains don't need to worry about Timers, Lightnings, or Superspicy Curries. They just need to expect that Meowth will bring Fire Flowers to the match.

That doesn't change the fact that it'd be terribly unbalanced. I know you're trying to give Meowth something unique to make it stand out, but you still need to take balance into consideration. It's not even a competitive issue either, it'd be just as bad in multiplayer too. A Meowth player could easily hound an opponent who is going to give them a really good item like Pikachu or Bayonetta and repeatedly capitalize on it.

For example:

Grab timer > everyone is slow > combo a character during the slowdown > use Pickup again > Get another timer while the opponents still haven't recovered from the first one. > Repeat for cheap K.O.s

 

[Arcadenik]

The Meowth's Pickup concept is similar to Kirby's Inhale and Villager's Pocket.

Which items Meowth brings to the match is dependant on who his opponents are.

It's like whatever copy ability Kirby gets is dependant on his opponent's Neutral Special.

Or whatever Villager puts in his pocket is dependant on whatever projectiles his opponents use.

 

[A Distant Demon]

The Meowth's Pickup concept is similar to Kirby's Inhale and Villager's Pocket.

Which items Meowth brings to the match is dependant on who his opponents are.

It's like whatever copy ability Kirby gets is dependant on his opponent's Neutral Special.

Or whatever Villager puts in his pocket is dependant on whatever projectiles his opponents use.

I think you are missing the problem here. The matchup dependent thing is a bit awkward


The problem is bringing ITEMS into matches that do not have items. Do you realize how absurdly broken timers and lighting are? Do you realize why items are banned in the first place? Adding items to competitive modes is 100% going to break the game.

 

[Kirbeh]

The Meowth's Pickup concept is similar to Kirby's Inhale and Villager's Pocket.

Which items Meowth brings to the match is dependant on who his opponents are.

It's like whatever copy ability Kirby gets is dependant on his opponent's Neutral Special.

Or whatever Villager puts in his pocket is dependant on whatever projectiles his opponents use.

Yes, we get that, but the problem is that it's unbalanced. Kirby and Villager's abilities are dependent on moves the opponent already has. Kirby can copy, and Villager essentially has a "save for later" reflector.

The items in Smash are unbalanced by design, so how is it a good idea to allow Meowth a guaranteed item? As Opossum already said, while Peach can RNG some items, it's not the basis of the move and chances are extremely low. Your idea for Meowth allows it a guaranteed item drop, which while character specific, still gives it an unfair advantage in certain match-ups, and in general for multiplayer.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The anime is the primary source for Mewtwo, Lucario, Jigglypuff(mostly cause it happens to match with a lot of what Kirby does), Pikachu(and by default Pichu since he's a clone)'s movesets. Greninja and Pokemon Trainer are the real exceptions.

Uh, yes, it does heavily create movesets for them. Meowth being based upon the anime heavily makes him a lot more interesting because it gives him tons of stuff to work with.

I agree Pickup could be a balancing nightmare. However, an idea could be to be far weaker than that. Just give him an item based upon the key element a character is from. Say, a weaker version of an item with less uses. Mario, Luigi, Roy, Captain Falcon, Charizard, their primary source is Fire. Getting a weaker Fire Flower with less usage once in a while while coming in contact with them(it'd be rare) is not a problem. As noted, the key focus is balance here. Pickup is a legit ability for Meowth as is, and this is a pretty good way to implement it but keep the fact that the only important Meowth is a villain(and it does appear in Pokemon Yellow too), and would steal stuff.

You could alternatively allow it to use Thief as a move, maybe as a custom of another, where it steals another character's currently held Item. It otherwise would deal damage, possibly weak damage in general. Maybe slightly more if they don't have an item.

There's a lot of unique ways to implement anime stuff, which is more important to Meowth as a character anyway. Let's be frank; he is not popular in the games outside of a niche usage for gathering cash and a fairly good ability(Technician) for competitive play. People like him due to the anime. There is nothing wrong with this, nor is there anything wrong with Sakurai using the anime to inspire his moveset. This whole "it should only come from the games" need to end already. Pokemon does not have this rule and never did. It's in fact a key notable point. Sakurai recognizes how important the anime is to the games' popularity, and is in fact a huge determining factor when it comes to most character choices. Greninja is the only official exception, and Pokemon Trainer may or may not be inspired by the anime when it came to choosing the Pokemon beyond Charizard. Also, many of Charizard's moves due to have inspiration from the anime too. Flamethrower is his signature move in it, along with his flight capabilities(it's a major point in how he fights and practically the first thing he does when evolving), but also has Seismic Toss. Now, obviously Rock Smash is from the games(but made unique in design to work within the series).

 

[Arcadenik]

Yes, we get that, but the problem is that it's unbalanced. Kirby and Villager's abilities are dependent on moves the opponent already has. Kirby can copy, and Villager essentially has a "save for later" reflector.

The items in Smash are unbalanced by design, so how is it a good idea to allow Meowth a guaranteed item? As Opossum already said, while Peach can RNG some items, it's not the basis of the move and chances are extremely low. Your idea for Meowth allows it a guaranteed item drop, which while character specific, still gives it an unfair advantage in certain match-ups, and in general for multiplayer.

I think you are missing the problem here. The matchup dependent thing is a bit awkward


The problem is bringing ITEMS into matches that do not have items. Do you realize how absurdly broken timers and lighting are? Do you realize why items are banned in the first place? Adding items to competitive modes is 100% going to break the game.

I know it gives Meowth an unfair advantage. I know it's going to break the game. It's cheating and that's how Team Rocket rolls. That's the whole point of bringing items to no-items matches.

People wanted Meowth to be "mechanically unique" and to fight alone without Wobbuffet... so here it is. Too unique Meowth breaks the game.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I know it gives Meowth an unfair advantage. I know it's going to break the game. It's cheating and that's how Team Rocket rolls. That's the whole point of bringing items to no-items matches.

You guys wanted Meowth to be "mechanically unique" and to fight alone without Wobbuffet... so here it is. So unique it breaks the game.

"I want to break the game's balance"

I really want you to think about what you just said. I really want you to think about adding a character to the game to INTENTIONALLY ruin game balance for the sake of "uniqueness."

 

[Luminario]

The Meowth's Pickup concept is similar to Kirby's Inhale and Villager's Pocket.

Which items Meowth brings to the match is dependant on who his opponents are.

It's like whatever copy ability Kirby gets is dependant on his opponent's Neutral Special.

Or whatever Villager puts in his pocket is dependant on whatever projectiles his opponents use.

Those are both bad examples. Both Kirby's and Villagers moves are balanced accordingly thanks to the balancing of the entire roster.
Look, we get that you're trying to make Meowth as unique as possible, but there are some things that just shouldn't carry over from the games. You have to always think about balance here.
Meowth isn't a starter, isn't a currently pushed Pokemon, nor is he a veteran. While we get that Meowth does have continuous popularity thanks to the anime, when you take out that factor he's not really got much in regards to gimmicks or unique battle mechanics.

People wanted Meowth to be "mechanically unique" and to fight alone without Wobbuffet... so here it is. Too unique Meowth breaks the game.

Don't make unique unbalanced gimmicks out of spite. You're gonna have to do what I did with Daisy, realise they haven't got much in terms of unique mechanics, and move on.

 

[Kirbeh]

I know it gives Meowth an unfair advantage. I know it's going to break the game. It's cheating and that's how Team Rocket rolls. That's the whole point of bringing items to no-items matches.

People wanted Meowth to be "mechanically unique" and to fight alone without Wobbuffet... so here it is. Too unique Meowth breaks the game.

You can make Meowth unique without breaking the game though. To bring up what I said before, if you really want to use the Pickup mechanic, you could give Meowth a pool of items from the Pokemon games that are unique to his Pickup ability.

For example:
Leftovers - Represented by spawning food that Meowth can eat to heal a little bit of %.
PP Up - Buffs Meowth's Special Moves for a short period.
Rare Candy - Gives Meowth a temporary buff to attack strength, speed, knock-back resistance, etc.

Of course include a few more aside from those 3, and adjust the spawn rates accordingly to make it balanced, but you get the idea.

 

[Arcadenik]

I tried to come up with something that reflected Meowth's cumulative history as a Pokeball Pokemon in Smash games, as a member of Team Rocket in the anime, as the Scratch Cat Pokemon in the Pokemon games, and even as the would-be protagonist of Meowth's Party... but it wasn't satisfactory enough... it was never good enough... never unique enough... and now, not even "mechanically unique" enough. Meta Knight, really!

It almost feels like I'm defending Duck Hunt Dog all over again... back when I first came up with the idea of the person with the NES Zapper shooting from the fourth wall and the dog and duck teaming up like Banjo-Kazooie... only to be told it made no sense or was not unique enough.

At least today I was inspired to come up with the new idea of Meowth having tippers in his claws. That's perfect and makes sense to me. Maybe he could have a tipper in his tail so he could use Iron Tail as an aerial move?

 

[Kirbeh]

I tried to come up with something that reflected Meowth's cumulative history as a Pokeball Pokemon in Smash games, as a member of Team Rocket in the anime, as the Scratch Cat Pokemon in the Pokemon games, and even as the would-be protagonist of Meowth's Party... but it wasn't satisfactory enough... it was never good enough... never unique enough... and now, not even "mechanically unique" enough. Meta Knight, really!

It almost feels like I'm defending Duck Hunt Dog all over again... back when I first came up with the idea of the person with the NES Zapper shooting from the fourth wall and the dog and duck teaming up like Banjo-Kazooie... only to be told it made no sense or was not unique enough.

At least today I was inspired to come up with the new idea of Meowth having tippers in his claws. That's perfect and makes sense to me. Maybe he could have a tipper in his tail so he could use Iron Tail as an aerial move?

Look, I'm still new around here so I don't know how long you've been trying to push for "x" character or "y" character, and I'm sure it's frustrating to have your ideas constantly picked apart (I'm sure most people in the thread have been there at one point or another when trying to support a character they like), but you've got to be able to take criticism. Most of the criticism towards your ideas for Meowth have had valid points and for the most part from what I've been reading were meant to be constructive.

Speaking for myself, I'm not against the idea of Meowth joining, in fact I've warmed up to the idea from reading some of your ideas as I do think they're really interesting. That being said, I still criticized the points that I feel could use some tweaking such as the whole Pickup mechanic. It's not meant to be discouraging or nitpicking for the sake of it. We're just making suggestions that you may or may not take into consideration so you can continue to refine your ideas and build a better case for Meowth.

And props for the DH prediction btw. Being spot on for a character like DH is pretty impressive.