Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Kirbeh]

No, you're missing the key point I was saying. Mewtwo debuted in the anime before the first movie came out. That's what I was saying. He's in both. You actually said he had no anime appearances. I was pointing out why that was incorrect, and why what he does in the anime also had influence in Smash. Mewtwo also uses moves in the anime that specifically lift an opponent and throw them somewhere. This is the overall basis for how Confusion works. Disable is clearly the picture I showed you, which was to stop an opponent from moving. It's obvious the Smash version of it needs to hit their eyes as a balancing factor. Being able to outright hold the opponent in place without a single requirement would be broken. Of course, the fact that if they're not facing you, the move doesn't work is bad design too. On the other hand, how can you approach Mewtwo if he can stop you the second you get clone. It's an odd move to balance right.

No disagreements with the rest, of course.

I did say he had no anime appearances in my first post to you, but I made that correction in the second.

Mewtwo would not appear in the anime for quite some time

I will concede that "quite some time" is still inaccurate, but his movie debut does predate his anime debut by a few months.
Mewtwo Strikes Back released in July 1998
He briefly appeared in the anime episode Battle of the Badge in September 1998.
And again in Showdown at the Po-ke Corral in October 1998.
Japanese dates once again btw.

And again I'm not arguing against the possibility that the anime influenced how Sakurai might have designed some of his moves, in fact it's very likely that it did. As I've been saying it's a blend of both the games and the anime. That being said, the anime influence accounts for only a handful of moves, and even among those with anime influence, the games still remain the original source. This is what I mean by a blend. The team's work closely together so what goes in the anime must be signed off on by the devs. Overall, the influence of both is definitely there, but most moves in Smash involve creative liberty from Sakurai based on what he can derive from the move-pool/abilities in game, and the portrayal as an actual character in the anime as opposed to a static sprite.

The anime derives material from the games. The anime portrayal then influences future games, and vice versa. It's a joint effort. The anime does play a key role, but the biggest factor will always be the games.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I did say he had no anime appearances in my first post to you, but I made that correction in the second.



I will concede that "quite some time" is still inaccurate, but his movie debut does predate his anime debut by a few months.
Mewtwo Strikes Back released in July 1998
He briefly appeared in the anime episode Battle of the Badge in September 1998.
And again in Showdown at the Po-ke Corral in October 1998.
Japanese dates once again btw.

And again I'm not arguing against the possibility that the anime influenced how Sakurai might have designed some of his moves, in fact it's very likely that it did. As I've been saying it's a blend of both the games and the anime. That being said, the anime influence accounts for only a handful of moves, and even among those with anime influence, the games still remain the original source. This is what I mean a blend. The team's work closely together so what goes in the anime must be signed off on by the devs. Overall, the influence of both is definitely there, but most moves in Smash involve creative liberty from Sakurai based on what he can derive from the move-pool/abilities in game, and the portrayal as an actual character in the anime as opposed to a static sprite.

The anime derives material from the games. The anime portrayal then influences future games, and vice versa. It's a joint effort. The anime does play a key role, but the biggest factor will always be the games.

Ah, I had the dates wrong. I think the US dates are different, with him being in the anime, then movies.

Anyway, agreed. The games respectively influence it. I think it's more than the Anime tends to have better animations to make moves based upon. Stadium/etc. kind of suck at representation moves with many moves looking the same. Still better than the Anime giving random moves out.

Funny thing is there's about only one move that at best was from the anime anyway, instead of just simply an influence. Thunder Jolt has zero video game appearances outside of Smash, and was solely a one-shot translation error name in the TCG. However, a similar move in the anime was shown in an episode titled The Problem With Paras. Ash/Satoshi asked Pikachu to do a weaker version of Thundershock, and then we see a tiny ball of electricity hit, along with actually going along the ground.

The other moves respectively(unless unique to Smash only) still technically come from the games, but are inspired by the anime, as shown by my Psychic > Confusion/Disable explanation.

 

[Deleted member]

Didn't Mewtwo's ability to float around come from the movie as well? Then again, I never read the manga so I don't know if he did that there too.

He did run around in pokemon Origins which was trying to be a bit more faithful to the games I believe, but then again, considering how odd Mewtwo looks when physically walking/running around (at least imo) I guess him floating around due to his psychic type abilities was more or less a no brainer regardless of the anime/movie....

I don't remember where Mewtwo's floating first came in, but I do remember that at least in Stadium, he was shown to fly, so the idea of it levitating using telekinesis has at least been part of the games before Melee.
Though I mean, it kind of had to be able to fly anyway to get from the Cinnabar Lab to the Cerulean Cave.

 

[Kirbeh]

Ah, I had the dates wrong. I think the US dates are different, with him being in the anime, then movies.

Anyway, agreed. The games respectively influence it. I think it's more than the Anime tends to have better animations to make moves based upon. Stadium/etc. kind of suck at representation moves with many moves looking the same. Still better than the Anime giving random moves out.

Funny thing is there's about only one move that at best was from the anime anyway, instead of just simply an influence. Thunder Jolt has zero video game appearances outside of Smash, and was solely a one-shot translation error name in the TCG. However, a similar move in the anime was shown in an episode titled The Problem With Paras. Ash/Satoshi asked Pikachu to do a weaker version of Thundershock, and then we see a tiny ball of electricity hit, along with actually going along the ground.

The other moves respectively(unless unique to Smash only) still technically come from the games, but are inspired by the anime, as shown by my Psychic > Confusion/Disable explanation.

Yes, the bold is precisely what I was trying to get at. If only I were more concise/better with words...

I've no doubt the anime had it's fair share of influences, I just took issue with your original comment saying that Lucario, etc. were largely anime based. The argument works for some general animations and a few specials, but most normals i.e; Smash attacks, tilts, aerials, etc. were creative liberties inspired by what the Pokemon are known to be capable of rather than direct references.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

https://smashboards.com/threads/sup...ation-discussion.434391/page-41#post-21708978 ...This wasn't entirely said in sarcasm? Serious question, I thought it was. >.< Yes, that's why I asked you to calm down.

Also, his anime appearances were far later on. Outside of the movie, anyway. I'm pretty sure it was Movie > D/P/P > Anime > Smash in that order.

And the way you worded it made it look like you were disagreeing with me, respectively. Apologies. Anyway, I forgot Bone Rush wasn't used in Smash(compared to some of the others). It's a well known move of his, one people expected over Force Palm, so I simply remembered wrong. To be fair, that's over 100 moves to remember. Fairly easy to make that error. XD

I mean, it is sarcasm veiling playing devil's advocate to myself to agree with you. I was hoping to take the route of letting you see flaws in your point on your own instead of taking a brash approach and just outright saying "You're wrong and here's why" per the norm. People are usually only supposed to say "calm down" when things like strong emotion or some form of insult is mixed into what they're saying, hence why it's such a strange thing to respond specifically to me with when I've been the most passive of anyone here disagreeing with you.

For example, if you say most of his moveset is based off of the anime, and I point out all of the things he does in the anime and say "You're right!", the goal was to get you to say "Wait a minute, you're agreeing with me, but none of these things he's doing in the anime actually have anything to do with what he's doing in Smash!" under the base assumption that you can research and reflect upon what you're saying. But when you're actually unaware of things like Bone Rush not being a part of Lucario's moveset, well, you kind of outsmarted me in the regard of knowing too little about Lucario rather than knowing too much. The point is, there's a lot of inaccuracies in what you're saying and it might honestly be easier to just pick at your statements head-on like everyone else at this point.

Just to get into one thing, the Anime coming before Smash is completely irrelevant when the first actual episode Lucario debuted in the anime was in February of 2008, which is not only a well over a year since Brawl's project plan was finalized (and therefore Lucario was being worked on in Smash first), but still a full month after Brawl's Japanese release in the first place. Sakurai's involvement with Pokemon stems down to interactions between him, The Pokemon Company and Game Freak. With that said, while Sakurai was designing Lucario in Smash, how would he have anything to do with the anime team (an unrelated studio of an unrelated medium to Sakurai, a game developer) at that point outside of the movie? How would Sakurai, a man busy with directing the largest Smash Bros. game to that point, have the time and will to access the writers of what is ultimately an adaptation of what he's already getting source information for by speaking to someone else? How would they even be able to finalize Lucario's fighting in the anime when they would have still been in the middle of creating story-boards for that episode (if they were even that far to begin with)? And then, if Sakurai did base Lucario directly off of the anime, then why on earth is Lucario doing all of these aura-based moves instead of using actual moves the Lucario in the anime uses like it would sensibly do if it's based off it? The Lucario in Smash uses attacks in loose reference to the movie, but nothing from the anime adaptation itself. Therefore, if the anime isn't first and isn't being directly referenced in a way that the games themselves don't already cover, the moveset can't be based specifically on the anime.

Can parts of it overlap? Yes, but Lucario was designed internally in Smash based on the games and Sakurai's creative liberties. The movie and the games act as base inspiration for Lucario, not the show.

I honestly don't understand what it is you want to hear before you can even fathom that possibility. If you're likewise willing to provide evidence like something Sakurai has explicitly said in relation to Lucario or some kind of Source Gaming article in relation to the Pokemon anime, by all means, I'm not close-minded, just not hearing anything you can actually back up.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yes, the bold is precisely what I was trying to get at. If only I were more concise/better with words...

I've no doubt the anime had it's fair share of influences, I just took issue with your original comment saying that Lucario, etc. were largely anime based. The argument works for some general animations and a few specials, but most normals i.e; Smash attacks, tilts, aerials, etc. were creative liberties inspired by what the Pokemon are known to be capable of rather than direct references.

Influence being mostly from anime is the same thing as me saying largely anime-based. That make more sense now?

Anyway, doing some research, a lot of those normals are just various fighting moves from actual martial arts. Which seems fitting for a fighting Pokemon. But yeah, let's just say I'm a bit off when it comes to Lucario and move on(it's safe to say the anime played a role). No point in trying to prove me wrong when I already am.

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't remember where Mewtwo's floating first came in, but I do remember that at least in Stadium, he was shown to fly, so the idea of it levitating using telekinesis has at least been part of the games before Melee.
Though I mean, it kind of had to be able to fly anyway to get from the Cinnabar Lab to the Cerulean Cave.

Ah yes, that makes sense, unless he could swim (Which I don't even know if he can learn Surf for that matter and Its probably a whole other question entirely) I guess the most logical conclusion to how he made it from Cinnabar Island to Cerulean City was most likely through flight.

I haven't played Stadium though I do vaguely recall a scene on a youtube video (which I presume was from that game) where Mewtwo flew towards the player, so I suppose the precedence is there that he could float in a game prior to Melee.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, it is sarcasm veiling playing devil's advocate to myself to agree with you. I was hoping to take the route of letting you see flaws in your point on your own instead of taking a brash approach and just outright saying "You're wrong and here's why" per the norm. People are usually only supposed to say "calm down" when things like strong emotion or some form of insult is mixed into what they're saying, hence why it's such a strange thing to respond specifically to me with when I've been the most passive of anyone here disagreeing with you.

For example, if you say most of his moveset is based off of the anime, and I point out all of the things he does in the anime and say "You're right!", the goal was to get you to say "Wait a minute, you're agreeing with me, but none of these things he's doing in the anime actually have anything to do with what he's doing in Smash!" under the base assumption that you can research and reflect upon what you're saying. But when you're actually unaware of things like Bone Rush not being a part of Lucario's moveset, well, you kind of outsmarted me in the regard of knowing too little about Lucario rather than knowing too much. The point is, there's a lot of inaccuracies in what you're saying and it might honestly be easier to just pick at your statements head-on like everyone else at this point.

Just to get into one thing, the Anime coming before Smash is completely irrelevant when the first actual episode Lucario debuted in the anime was in February of 2008, which is not only a well over a year since Brawl's project plan was finalized (and therefore Lucario was being worked on in Smash first), but still a full month after Brawl's Japanese release in the first place. Sakurai's involvement with Pokemon stems down to interactions between him, The Pokemon Company and Game Freak. With that said, while Sakurai was designing Lucario in Smash, how would he have anything to do with the anime team (an unrelated studio of an unrelated medium to Sakurai, a game developer) at that point outside of the movie? How would Sakurai, a man busy with directing the largest Smash Bros. game to that point, have the time and will to access the writers of what is ultimately an adaptation of what he's already getting source information for by speaking to someone else? How would they even be able to finalize Lucario's fighting in the anime when they would have still been in the middle of creating story-boards for that episode (if they were even that far to begin with)? And then, if Sakurai did base Lucario directly off of the anime, then why on earth is Lucario doing all of these aura-based moves instead of using actual moves the Lucario in the anime uses like it would sensibly do if it's based off it? The Lucario in Smash uses attacks in loose reference to the movie, but nothing from the anime adaptation itself. Therefore, if the anime isn't first and isn't being directly referenced in a way that the games themselves don't already cover, the moveset can't be based specifically on the anime.

I honestly don't understand what it is you want to hear before you can even fathom that possibility. If you're likewise willing to provide evidence like something Sakurai has explicitly said in relation to Lucario or some kind of Source Gaming article in relation to the Pokemon anime, by all means, I'm not close-minded, just not hearing anything you can actually back up.

I think you missed a ton of my posts. I said "mostly based upon the anime", correcting myself later.

Anyway, just read my latest one. I clearly was wrong. But let's move on.

...And playing devil's advocate using sarcasm is not a very good way to put your point out, honestly. It came off as aggressive and unnecessary. And it clearly didn't help. Plus, I even correct myself on Bone Rush, an error I made.

Also, Lucario debuted in the animated movie before the Pokemon games, for the record. But yeah, read my latest reply to Kirbeh.

Nothing more to discuss, I was wrong, etc.(well, bar Aura Sphere, heh)

 

[Deleted member]

I meant to say based upon, not identical. Pokken does it better indeed. But Lucario's overall movements and constant ability to keep going as well as increasing power via his aura is pretty much anime-based. Although this is a bit more of a case of a "the Pokemon never gives up in the anime and finds ways to come back" , specifically how his Aura works. That's an interpretation of his personality, pretty accurately too.

You're still talking about Sir Aaron's Lucario, right? Because that's literally the only Lucario anime appearance his Smash appearance is based on. Another Lucario wouldn't appear in the anime until after Brawl's release. Ironically one week later.

And the whole "never gives up and finds ways to come back" aspect wasn't really strong with that Lucario to be honest.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're still talking about Sir Aaron's Lucario, right? Because that's literally the only Lucario anime appearance his Smash appearance is based on. Another Lucario wouldn't appear in the anime until after Brawl's release. Ironically one week later.

And the whole "never gives up and finds ways to come back" aspect wasn't really strong with that Lucario to be honest.

Fair enough.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I was mistaken on some bits. So I was wrong, etc.

I replied to that before I was correct on the error of Lucario's specific appearance order. Hence, it's old and incorrect information on my part.

 

[Luminario]

Ah yes, that makes sense, unless he could swim (Which I don't even know if he can learn Surf for that matter and Its probably a whole other question entirely) I guess the most logical conclusion to how he made it from Cinnabar Island to Cerulean City was most likely through flight.

I haven't played Stadium though I do vaguely recall a scene on a youtube video (which I presume was from that game) where Mewtwo flew towards the player, so I suppose the precedence is there that he could float in a game prior to Melee.

I kinda feel like floating is just a general thing that all psychic pokemon are shown to usually do, especially ones that aren't exactly made for walking. I mean, if you've got the power of telekinesis you're probably gonna use it on yourself to fly so it's not that much of a stretch. It's just sorta the natural progression of "what can telekinetic characters do?"

 

[Kirbeh]

Putting that subject behind us, what would you guys say to a new Zelda rep? People always go over the one and done characters, or recurring side characters like Impa and Tingle. I know we already have two Links and two Zeldas but I've always been interested in adding Ganon. Not Beast Ganon mind you, but the classic bipedal trident-wielding pig demon.

As another form of Ganondorf (the original form series wise, I know in terms of canon Dorf came first), he's pretty important and has more appearances than his Gerudo form too. He could be resized to be around that of Bowser, DK, and Dedede as another heavy.

I'm working on some ideas for him , so hopefully I can open a support thread once I've finished that if anyone's interested.

 

[Curious Villager]

I kinda feel like floating is just a general thing that all psychic pokemon are shown to usually do, especially ones that aren't exactly made for walking. I mean, if you've got the power of telekinesis you're probably gonna use it on yourself to fly so it's not that much of a stretch. It's just sorta the natural progression of "what can telekinetic characters do?"

Fair enough.

It was more or less a question on if his ability to float was first introduced in the anime/movie, or if he was also shown to do it in the games prior to Melee. Or if it was shown to walk and run more initially (Although due to the nature of the games, particularly the earlier ones, seeing Mewtwo move at all was a bit of a rarity.)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I kinda feel like floating is just a general thing that all psychic pokemon are shown to usually do, especially ones that aren't exactly made for walking. I mean, if you've got the power of telekinesis you're probably gonna use it on yourself to fly so it's not that much of a stretch. It's just sorta the natural progression of "what can telekinetic characters do?"

The fact Mewtwo has flown in his animated appearances using his psychic abilities probably has something to do with that. XD

Putting that subject behind us, what would you guys say to a new Zelda rep? People always go over the one and done characters, or recurring side characters like Impa and Tingle. I know we already have two Links and two Zeldas but I've always been interested in adding Ganon. Not Beast Ganon mind you, but the classic bipedal trident-wielding pig demon.

As another form of Ganondorf (the original form series wise, I know in terms of canon Dorf came first), he's pretty important and has more appearances than his Gerudo form too. He could be resized to be around that of Bowser, DK, and Dedede as another heavy.

I'm working on some ideas for him , so hopefully I can open a support thread once I've finished that if anyone's interested.

For Ganon(dorf), I feel there's two good options. Moblin Ganon(the original Ganon) with a Trident and/or double swords, or Toon Ganondorf. Both have unique abilities and options, respectively.

Beyond that, I feel Impa could work great as composite character. Personally, I like her Oracles appearance, where she's a heavyset woman. She has various weapons and abilities among the games, and I feel they could take liberties too. For instance, her Oracles appearance could make her great in being able to use massively powerful attacks using her body. A belly flop, a shoulder tackle, etc.

My personal choice outside of another Ganon version is Tingle, though. I feel they have a ton to work with due to his various appearances in games. My only issue is that I can't think of a more clear thematic gimmick to give him. I'm also aware of his issue with popularity among the world, hence why putting him in Smash could be controversial.

For the record, mine is Toon Ganondorf > Moblin Ganon > Tingle > Impa for specific order. All are sweet choices. Not to say others don't exist of note, whether a one-shot appearance or not(Vaati, Midna, for two easy examples).

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I don't know about a new Zelda rep (I wouldn't even count with this in next 'true' Smash.. only the Triforce is more than enough); but I'd love a Breath of the Wild stage... a flying one, maybe, with a Guardian messing things up. =P

 

[Luminario]

Fair enough.

It was more or less a question on if his ability to float was first introduced in the anime/movie, or if he was also shown to do it in the games prior to Melee. Or if it was shown to walk and run more initially (Although due to the nature of the games, particularly the earlier ones, seeing Mewtwo move at all was a bit of a rarity.)

Ah, then yeah it first floated in the anime cause Stadium came afterwards. I don't think it ever struck anyone as much of a runner tbh, except for sometime in the manga apparently.

Putting that subject behind us, what would you guys say to a new Zelda rep? People always go over the one and done characters, or recurring side characters like Impa and Tingle. I know we already have two Links and two Zeldas but I've always been interested in adding Ganon. Not Beast Ganon mind you, but the classic bipedal trident-wielding pig demon.

As another form of Ganondorf (the original form series wise, I know in terms of canon Dorf came first), he's pretty important and has more appearances than his Gerudo form too. He could be resized to be around that of Bowser, DK, and Dedede as another heavy.

I'm working on some ideas for him , so hopefully I can open a support thread once I've finished that if anyone's interested.

Vaati is someone I'd like to see as a character in either smash or the next Hyrule Warriors game. A windbox controlling character that has fast multi-hit attacks similar to megaman's uair. He's also a villain to Toon Link, leaving the main Triforce Trio alone while adding to the series reps, but he's not got that much relevance nowadays though. Impa's also a good character I can see working similarly to Sheik, and an impossible choice of mine would be Mipha with her spear, just cause I like her.
I'd say Beast Ganon would work pretty well, and he'd complete the secondary Triforce Trio with Sheik and Toon Link. Ganon using a Trident would also bring some weapon variety. I wouldn't mind seeing him, even though I'd probably never play as him.

 

[Deleted member]

If we really need another "Ganon", why not this guy?

He'd literally be what people want Ganondorf to be.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Phantom Ganon seems more like stage boss material to me, probably because he's known for flying all over the place and doing Dead Man's Volley against you.

Spoiler

Of course, Calamity Ganon would probably work better as a stage boss.

 

[KniteBlargh]

Man, notifications stopped coming in for this thread for some reason, so I missed out on a lot of conversations...

All the talk of a Team Rocket trio as a playable character brought back memories of Doronjo and her two underlings in Tatsunoko vs. Capcom... *sigh* Such a fun game. Mind you, I don't think her moveset would make the best transition as-is for a character in Smash, but it's an example of three characters being worked into one in a fighting game without having to completely transform like Pokemon Trainer. At this point, though, it feels like Meowth or Team Rocket would count as a retro addition; I think some other retro rep would be more likely, with Pokemon maybe receiving something more current. Could always be wrong, of course, but that's my stand on the matter.

As for a new LoZ rep, I still like the idea of Tetra, though I'm not sure how relevant she is, or even how well she could stand out moveset-wise from Toon Link. Yeah, there's Hyrule Warriors and Wind Waker HD to make her semi-current, but I'm not sensing the Tetra popularity that I did before Brawl came around. Even Linkle feels more relevant to me, but maybe that's just me being a downer (Linkle is fine, I just prefer Tetra's sass). Linkle could at least theoretically feature some kind of crossbow reloading gimmick (Note: I'm not familiar with how the character works in Hyrule Warriors.), though that doesn't sound too exciting. LOL I don't know, are there any legitimate arguments that work in Tetra's favour right now besides seemingly having been planned for Brawl (unless it really was a "toon" Sheik)?

 

[Deleted member]

Phantom Ganon seems more like stage boss material to me, probably because he's known for flying all over the place and doing Dead Man's Volley against you.

Spoiler

Of course, Calamity Ganon would probably work better as a stage boss.

You mean like how Ganondorf was before he got in Melee? :V

 

[Arcadenik]

I still have some trouble understanding what gameplay mechanics are supposed to be. I still have some difficulty coming up with something that's completely unique to Meowth without being similar to Meta Knight or anyone else for that matter and without breaking the game balance and without using anime references (even though it was only one move).

I just feel like I was backed to a corner when coming up with something for Meowth. It just seems like potential newcomers must be able to do something that's completely original and unheard of while not breaking the game balance and they must draw from their own games, not from TV shows or other games (looking at Villager, Duck Hunt, and Pac-Man).

I don't play Smash competitively and I just play for fun. I just wanted to play as my favorite characters even if they are low on the tier list. Duck Hunt is pretty low on the tier list but I still have fun playing as the dog and duck team and I spend more time playing as them than I do with the whole roster combined. I just thought it would be fun to play as Meowth in Smash. That's all.

I support characters because I like them and think they would be fun to play in Smash, not because they are being promoted by Nintendo or Pokemon Company. I know Meowth is unlikely but why should that discourage me from supporting Meowth?

For example, Nintendo is obviously promoting Inklings but I don't support them because of that. I support Inklings because I like Splatoon games and thought they would be fun to play in Smash.

Another example, I support Wandering Heroes but Nintendo isn't promoting animal-headed Miis or StreetPass Mii Plaza. I support Wandering Heroes because I like how cute they look and I like the idea of swordfighters that know different types of magic based on their shirt color and I really like the Find Mii stage in Smash 3DS even though I grow impatient with how limited StreetPass Mii Plaza games are (10 Play Coins a day, 300 Play Coins limit).

Edit: I want to add that I will try to learn to take criticism. Also I want to thank some of you for an invigorated discussion about Meowth. I wish Meowth support threads were like that... a lively place to discuss Meowth, what makes him unique, coming up with moveset ideas, and how to make him balanced, and share fan art.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You mean like how Ganondorf was before he got in Melee? :V

You do face Phantom Ganon "before" fighting Ganondorf though.

 

[Deleted member]

You do face Phantom Ganon "before" fighting Ganondorf though.

You're missing the point. Completely.

You're saying Phantom Ganon would be better suited as a boss because it is "known for" flying around and Dead Man's Volley.
Which was EXACTLY WHAT GANONDORF WAS KNOWN FOR before he was added in Melee.

Where do you think Phantom Ganon got it from?

 

[N3ON]

People probably don't envision Phantom Ganon as a character because he doesn't have much going for him other than feasibility and the potential for uniqueness. Which themselves are, ironically, not particularly unique qualifiers. When you lack popularity and/or prominence, you don't really engender yourself to serious consideration.

 

[LIQUID12A]

You do face Phantom Ganon "before" fighting Ganondorf though.

Lemme clear up what Golden's trying to say.

Behold the mystical floating Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time, predating Phantom Ganon by a number of years and games. Phantom Ganon floats. Ganondorf here predates him doing that.

#friendlyclarificationservices

 

[Luminario]

I still don't get why Warlock Punch hasn't been replaced with Dead Man's Volley yet. It's an iconic move to Ganondorf and should have been implemented in Brawl yet we still have to deal with a Falcon Punch rip-off. Is it more about balance or is it just Sakurai wants to stick with the current Falcondorf moveset?

 

[Kirbeh]

If we really need another "Ganon", why not this guy?

He'd literally be what people want Ganondorf to be.

If that's the case I'd rather Ganondorf be what people want him to be. It'd be really strange if we got Phantom Ganon representing what Ganondorf should be while Ganondorf himself remained a Falcon semi-clone.

Ganon is meant more so to represent classic Zelda, and could still provide something new to the table even if he's not really center stage anymore. I think his legacy and importance to the franchise at least warrants consideration.

Phantom Ganon would make for an awesome costume though. Either that, or maybe a strong Smash Run/Adventure Mode enemy. That seems fitting for some reason.

I still don't get why Warlock Punch hasn't been replaced with Dead Man's Volley yet. It's an iconic move to Ganondorf and should have been implemented in Brawl yet we still have to deal with a Falcon Punch rip-off. Is it more about balance or is it just Sakurai wants to stick with the current Falcondorf moveset?

We may never know. I'd wager Sakurai has warmed up to the Falcondorf moveset and is reluctant to change it. Or Ganondorf might be low priority when it comes to development. He's a lock for inclusion, but for the sake of saving time. they keep him the same while they focus on other things.

As a Dorf main myself, he's in kind of a weird spot. I've grown accustomed to Falcondorf and actually do like the way he plays, but I also want a Ganondorf that better represents the abilities he uses in the Zelda games. When it comes down to it I would like him to be changed, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't miss the Warlock Punch, Wizard's Foot and stomp DAIR.

 

[Deleted member]

Would anyone honestly care that he doesn't have the Dead Man's Volley if he wasn't a derivative of Falcon?

Because from my perspective, people only mention things like it because of his current status as a Falcon semi-clone.
And if something were to replace Warlock Punch, I'd like it if it wasn't another Charge Shot/Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere/Sun Salutation/etc.

 

[Luminario]

Would anyone honestly care that he doesn't have the Dead Man's Volley if he wasn't a derivative of Falcon?

Because from my perspective, people only mention things like it because of his current status as a Falcon semi-clone.
And if something were to replace Warlock Punch, I'd like it if it wasn't another Charge Shot/Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere/Sun Salutation/etc.

It just seems weird to not add that part of his iconic OoT fight. I don't even play Ganondorf and I feel it should definitely be in there. The rest of his moveset feels fine the way it is as it's brutal and fits his character and is decloned enough.
I was thinking that DMV is a non-charge projectile that could be hit back at Dorf just like in the fight too, leading to tennis matches or baits.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Lemme clear up what Golden's trying to say.

Behold the mystical floating Ganondorf from Ocarina of Time, predating Phantom Ganon by a number of years and games. Phantom Ganon floats. Ganondorf here predates him doing that.

#friendlyclarificationservices

Agnahim used it well before Ganondorf did. Technically speaking, it's more of a signature move of the Ganon-related characters, not of Ganondorf specifically. This is a memorable usage of it, of course. Also, Phantom Ganon did still use it before Ganondorf did in OOT. He's the introduction of how painful it is to miss. It's actually used more often by Phantom Ganon in games compared to Ganondorf too.

Anyway, while I want the move in, it should be because it would be interesting and is tied to the Ganon characters. I agree it shouldn't be used as an excuse to "make him less like Falcon", since he still fits severely well with the Falcon moveset. Wanting a move solely out of spite doesn't make it a good choice, honestly. It also doesn't help that Ganondorf no longer can use that move outside of OOT(and I think HW?), so it's less important to him as a whole.

Realistically, Ganondorf's only signature ability among all the games is him transforming into a version of Ganon, generally using the Triforce of Power. The only odd one is Puppet Ganon, but he's still a Moblin variation in his first form, and the other two resembles actual minions under him in the games. It's really not explained why he doesn't turn into a pig/boar/bulldog-like version of Ganon at all and a three-form puppet. But that's not my main point anyway. The main point is that turning into Ganon is really what Ganondorf is truly known for.

 

[Kirbeh]

Agnahim used it well before Ganondorf did. Technically speaking, it's more of a signature move of the Ganon-related characters, not of Ganondorf specifically. This is a memorable usage of it, of course. Also, Phantom Ganon did still use it before Ganondorf did in OOT. He's the introduction of how painful it is to miss. It's actually used more often by Phantom Ganon in games compared to Ganondorf too.

Anyway, while I want the move in, it should be because it would be interesting and is tied to the Ganon characters. I agree it shouldn't be used as an excuse to "make him less like Falcon", since he still fits severely well with the Falcon moveset. Wanting a move solely out of spite doesn't make it a good choice, honestly. It also doesn't help that Ganondorf no longer can use that move outside of OOT(and I think HW?), so it's less important to him as a whole.

Realistically, Ganondorf's only signature ability among all the games is him transforming into a version of Ganon, generally using the Triforce of Power. The only odd one is Puppet Ganon, but he's still a Moblin variation in his first form, and the other two resembles actual minions under him in the games. It's really not explained why he doesn't turn into a pig/boar/bulldog-like version of Ganon at all and a three-form puppet. But that's not my main point anyway. The main point is that turning into Ganon is really what Ganondorf is truly known for.

DMV is also used in TP, albeit while he's possessing Zelda, but it's still his ability/him doing it. Yuga Ganon uses it in ALBW, and I assume the ability can be attributed to both since we already know Ganon possesses it, and Yuga himself is his Lorule counterpart. Also, wasn't Agahnim just Ganon's alter-ego, essentially making it Ganon's ability in the first place?

That being said, DMV or at least similarly functioning attacks have been used by other characters, some related, such as Phantom Ganon (which we can count as extensions of him anyway),or Twinrova in the Oracle games I think. However completely unrelated characters have been given similar abilities as well, namely the lady villain from Triforce Heroes...

That aside, Ganon is pretty important, and while it's already been represented through his Beast Ganon Final Smash, I think there's still room for having the classic version as a playable character. He's got 5-6 games under his belt (if you want to count the Zelda II game over screen), he IS the main villain of the series (just a different form, but a radically different form that could provide a unique moveset to set him apart from his existing form as with Zelda/Sheik), I'm honestly surprised (and disappointed) Ganon hasn't even gotten a trophy, and no TP's Beast Ganon doesn't count as that's a different form altogether.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

DMV is also used in TP, albeit while he's possessing Zelda, but it's still his ability/him doing it. Yuga Ganon uses it in ALBW, and I assume the ability can be attributed to both since we already know Ganon possesses it, and Yuga himself is his Lorule counterpart. Also, wasn't Agahnim just Ganon's alter-ego, essentially making it Ganon's ability in the first place?

That being said, DMV or at least similarly functioning attacks have been used by other characters, some related, such as Phantom Ganon (which we can count as extensions of him anyway),or Twinrova in the Oracle games I think. However completely unrelated characters have been given similar abilities as well, namely the lady villain from Triforce Heroes...

I pointed out the Agnahim point, to note. But yeah, what I'm saying is that literally Ganon or Ganondorf himself is not the only user of it. Thus, it's not a signature ability of his. It's also just one of his more famous and well known moves, but it's often given to other villains, some of which relate to Ganon. I forget he used it in TP, though. I only beat the game once. He doesn't in WW, notably.

I don't mind implementing it, but people are making it sound like it's actually a super important move to Ganondorf when it really isn't all that key to his character overall. Great move choice, but it's given more credit than it deserves. That's also why I pointed out that Ganondorf's real signature ability is his transformation capabilities. That said, what made him stand out before that fight is how powerful he clearly was. Not just magic, but physically too. We do kind of see Dead Man's Volley early in the game when he shoots Young Link with an energy ball, but that might not even be the same spell. I mainly think that that Ganondorf could use some kind of magical attack that has a bigger hitbox or is a projectile, to emphasize a bit more than his Power aspect. They clearly represent the fact he's the Triforce of Power used just fine. They even noted he clearly can fight with a sword with at least one move(albeit a custom, but it's there). We have yet to see him doing straight-out magic compared to what is basically a monk attack. Albeit, this might be intentional with the way the Zelda trio works in Smash. Link's most known for his items(including his sword). Zelda's intended to be about magic. Ganondorf is the source of great power, physically in this case. Sheik is not really related to the triforce in general despite being Zelda, so she doesn't seem to follow anything important among the trio. And Young/Toon Link work the same way Link does, being it's still overall Link in the long run.

It also doesn't help that Ganondorf isn't even the first proper user of it. It would also help if only Ganon or his forms used it. The fact characters that aren't even related to Ganon at all by proxy or otherwise are starting to use it. It's very clear it's just a move they like giving villains who are often major bosses. Yuga Ganon is still Ganon in some way, and being Ganondorf's dimensional counterpart isn't helping either.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

DMV might not be used by Ganon only, but it's used by him, sometimes as one of his only attacks.
(I remember the Cubus Sisters from PH to use DMV, so not even Ganon-related characters use it)

Anyway, I think it can fit in his playstyle of power very well as I don't really believe "Make everything kill at 80% and nerf him for the rest" is a good, cohesive playstyle
It requires a little trap vibe, limiting options and instilling fear which could be done with a slower moving, heavier hitting projectile (I'm thinking more of Pac-Man's Melon than an Aura Sphere here)

I'd like to see Kilton in Smash but he ain't going to happen

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

People probably don't envision Phantom Ganon as a character because he doesn't have much going for him other than feasibility and the potential for uniqueness. Which themselves are, ironically, not particularly unique qualifiers. When you lack popularity and/or prominence, you don't really engender yourself to serious consideration.

Pretty much this. We already have Ganondorf as a playable character, so it feels very silly to make Phantom Ganon a playable character as well. Perhaps a palette swap reference for Ganondorf, but as Hyrule Warriors Legends has shown us, we can have Ganondorf as a playable character, while Phantom Ganon appears as a boss.

 

[Arcadenik]

Does a character really need to have special moves that are their signature moves or abilities in many games?

Yes, Ganondorf uses Dead Man Volley in only one game, Ocarina of Time, but why should it matter how often he uses it?

We have characters in Smash who have special moves that they used in only one game.

Mario's Cape was only in SMW. It would make sense if they replaced the Cape with the Raccoon Tail since Mario uses it in SMB3, SM3DL, NSMB2, SM3DW, and even Sticker Star and Color Splash.

Peach's Vegetable was only in SMB2. I could argue that the Vegetable is more of Toad's signature move than Peach's since he pulls vegetables in more than one game (Captain Toad Treasure Tracker).

And then we have Zelda's specials. Three of them were only in Ocarina of Time and they weren't even Zelda's abilities... and the Phantom was only in Spirit Tracks and it wasn't even key to Toon Zelda's character either since Toon Zelda used it only in that game (and Hyrule Warriors Legends).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Does a character really need to have special moves that are their signature moves or abilities in many games?

Yes, Ganondorf uses Dead Man Volley in only one game, Ocarina of Time, but why should it matter how often he uses it?

We have characters in Smash who have special moves that they used in only one game.

Mario's Cape was only in SMW. It would make sense if they replaced the Cape with the Raccoon Tail since Mario uses it in SMB3, SM3DL, NSMB2, SM3DW, and even Sticker Star and Color Splash.

Peach's Vegetable was only in SMB2. I could argue that the Vegetable is more of Toad's signature move than Peach's since he pulls vegetables in more than one game (Captain Toad Treasure Tracker).

And then we have Zelda's specials. Three of them were only in Ocarina of Time and they weren't even Zelda's abilities... and the Phantom was only in Spirit Tracks and it wasn't even key to Toon Zelda's character either since Toon Zelda used it only in that game (and Hyrule Warriors Legends).

It's more of a case of "We shouldn't add this if we're trying to represent Ganondorf's signature abilities", since it's really not much one he alone even uses. It's not a key thing of his.

The point of the specials by design are often to be signature abilities for characters. While it varies, every character at least had one signature thing that fit what they can do, at least in their first Smash appearance. Ganondorf seems like an exception, but he does pound the ground with severe force during OOT, so Warlock Punch still fits. Zelda's canonical ability was to Transform into Sheik, likewise with Sheik turning back into Zelda. Also, Sheik's Up B is based upon her signature teleport she does during OOT.

 

[Arcadenik]

Okay... so if Dead Man Volley isn't exclusive to Ganondorf since Phantom Ganon and Agahnim use them, it shouldn't be part of the moveset?

Because that's how I interpreted "signature ability"... something that only that character can do and no one else is able to do it in the games.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Even though the Volley is far from exclusive to Ganondorf, it is one of his actual abilities and is thus better than 99% of his current moveset.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Okay... so if Dead Man Volley isn't exclusive to Ganondorf since Phantom Ganon and Agahnim use them, it shouldn't be part of the moveset?

Because that's how I interpreted "signature ability"... something that only that character can do and no one else is able to do it in the games.

Technically, Phantom Ganon is something created by Ganondorf himself, so it doesn't really count.

Then, Agahnim is Ganon, which means he's also technically Ganondorf.

 

[Curious Villager]

The only enemies not related to Ganon(dorf) at all I can recall using DMV was the Cubus Sisters from Phantom Hourglass.

Now that I think of it, was there anyone at all that used DMV or a move similar to it in Skyward Sword? I can't remember, but considering how much of a big deal 1:1 motion controls was for that game, especially with the sword, I'd probably be a bit surprised (or maybe not) if there was no enemy there that had that ability there too.....