Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Opossum]

And the winner of the poll is Krookodile. It was interesting seeing that Genesect support is alive and well. Chandelier didn't do too bad and Meloetta just shown how badly her support died.

Moving on, we start with Generation 6, which brought us the Smash 4 newcomer Greninja. Your picks are Chestnaught, Delphox, Diggersby, and Florges.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good luck.

Diggersby all the way. Probably the best token early Normal type unless you count Stoutland.

 

[Deleted member]

If anyone votes for Delphox I automatically disregard all of their opinions

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I think Bandana Waddle Dee is probably going to be the most underestimated character for the next Smash.

I can't wait to hear Da Wae of Da Spear

Peach and Bowser actually got added in Melee due to a poll to see who the most popular Mario character was (bar Mario and Luigi). Wario got third and didn't make the cut, hence why he was added in Brawl and not sooner.

But yes, Wario was highly requested. Just keep in mind that popularity doesn't always equal iconicness. Casual gamers are probably far less familiar with Ridley and K. Rool than Wario, Diddy Kong, or Pokemon Trainer, despite the two being incredibly popular characters in each Smash game.

Keep in mind though that Wario was planned for Melee as a clone but Sakurai thought Wario deserved better, which he did with his unique WarioWare outfit and wacky moveset

If Smash gets two new characters as part of a Deluxe edition, I predict a lot of eaten hats if for some reason there's no Splatoon representation.

It would surprised me if that happened. Splatoon has been a big hit and no reason to drop them. But we all know they're gonna make Smash eventually


If y'all wanna talk about balance, I think Melee and Brawl were the most even with hardcore and casuals. I mean...Melee DID introduce many of us to the Fire Emblem series after all.

But at the same time, look at it this way: the more star power video game characters we get, the less we are going to get some iconic characters and series having few representatives. That's why Sakurai added in more lesser known characters for the Wii U/3DS to possibly help build their series and it's working on some of them like Xenoblade Chronicles and eventually Splatoon. But there needs to be more villains joining Smash and not heroes. The lack of villains in the series is somewhat disturbing and I would love for 5mash to eventually pick up on it.

Ridley had like 5 or so votes from Facebook before posting the poll here.

---

One thing we all should realize by now with 4 Smash games is that popularity is not everything and that certain characters being the next definitive choice of a representation for a series isn't always the case.

If popularity was everything the roster of Brawl and Smash 4 would be so different (maybe even parts of Melee). And certain characters being the next choice kind of depends on if they are still relevant and if other choices don't outway them. One such choice mentioned on this discussion the last day or so is Bandanna Dee. Obviously he makes sense, he is popular, and he is used in the series still. But at any moment another character could be created or brought back and utilized as much or more so. I will say this, if Prince Fluff years ago would have continued to be used he would also have been just as relevant and just as possible for Smash 4. But his chances dropped tremendously since then because he hasn't been used in the series since then. But his chances dropping doesn't guarantee Bandanaa Dee as any other Kirby character could be made relevant again.

In terms of Zelda everyone would likely say the next obvious choice is Impa. She was relevant during the days of Melee because of games like Ocarina of Time and the Oracle games. But after that she disappeared until Skyward Sword, A Link Between Worlds, and Hyrule Warriors which canned her shot for Brawl but gave her one for Smash 4 (which didn't happen). Now she has started to disappear again (somewhat) and other characters are debuting and being brought back so she now has competition, some of which might be more relevant than her come the time of Smash 5.

And in terms of Fire Emblem a lot of people I have seen still ask for Lyn or Hector. Others have started pushing for Celica and Alm. But the likes of Hector and Lyn haven't had an actual appearance in the series since their game back in 2003, one that wasn't DLC. Their highest shot was BRAWL when GBA was a central focus. And Echoes is still relevant now but we are getting ever so closer to Fire Emblem 16 on Switch. When that happens we all know characters fron it will pretty much be taking preference over anyone else, much like Ike did in Brawl when his games were still new and like Awakening and Fates did in Smash 4.

These are only some examples but it applies to every franchise. To every series and individual games released. Smash games tend to pull from stuff relevant leading up to its release (like the GBA, DS, and GC for Brawl or the DS, 3DS, and Wii for Smash 4). Fans may request stuff all the time, many things might have popularity, but that doesn't guarantee whether something is likely or obvious to add.

Holy **** you're alive after all this time lmao

Remember when you and I had countless arguments about Robin? Good times

Saw people saying there shouldn't be unlockables

Strongly disagree


Instead they should include a system that allows for instant unlocks, like a cheat code system

THIS! This was why I was so disappointed with not having unlockable characters minus the 3DS easy suicide one stock to get them.

 

[Lukingordex]

Bringing only 2 newcomers for a possible switch port sounds pretty disappointing tbh, if they did that i'd already be pretty surprised.
However if it really happens (and a big IF) i wouldn't be too surprised if inklings didn't make the cut, considering how DLC was handled in the past (3 returning vets, 3 totally unexpected 3rd parties and a character to promote an upcoming game and absolutely no new 1st party character that everyone expected to join eventually).
Of course it could be different considering it wouldn't be dlc but added content on a port, but the possibility does exists if we somehow only receive 2 new characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I want this thread to be like this, nice and positive. No drama. Especially since I am battling depression. Good job for being positive guys.

Saw people saying there shouldn't be unlockables

Strongly disagree


Instead they should include a system that allows for instant unlocks, like a cheat code system

I honestly agree with this 100%. Are you referring to me, I was not saying that I did not want unlockables. I did want unlockables. Unlockables are honestly a good charm and satisfying, to know that you worked hard to unlock these great characters. It feels dull when you just have everything automatically, but it is good for competitive.

Exactly

You should add more text so the moderators do not warn you.

Diggersby all the way. Probably the best token early Normal type unless you count Stoutland.

Someone chose Diggersby? I chose Diggersby because I like seeing it in smogon. It puts up a fight.
If it was in Smash for Switch, it could be like a power-house but slow. Kind of like Ganon and Dedede.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's also overwhelming when there are too many characters to start with. I found myself barely touching some. Unlocking characters invites you to try something new.

 

[Krysco]

I'm all for no more unlockables. Altogether by the way, not just characters. No more having to put up with **** like Smash Tour or doing single player on the hardest difficulty. All characters, stages, music and customs (if they return) unlocked right off the bat. Couldn't care less about trophies.

That being said, a 'best of both worlds' solution is ideal for those who do enjoy unlocking stuff.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Look at my profile picture and tell me you don't wanna see unlockable characters.

 

[kirbstr]

If they are going to do "unlockable characters" smash 4 style again where it takes you a minimum of 5 hours to unlock every character than I'd rather everyone just be available from the start. That being said I really hope that we do have unlockable characters back in the way they were in melee/brawl because it felt so much more rewarding and exciting to unlock new characters in those games.

 

[Deleted member]

Keep in mind though that Wario was planned for Melee as a clone but Sakurai thought Wario deserved better, which he did with his unique WarioWare outfit and wacky moveset

No, no, no. That was misinformation.

Wario was never planned as a clone.

 

[Chandeelure]

Lol?

Characters are incredibly easy to unlock and you are complaining that you have to unlock them?

You can have all of them in one day without effort.

I would like if they were more and harder to unlock tbh.

Like unlocking Falco (I think) in Melee doing 15 min Multi Man Melee haha.

That was epic.

 

[Lukingordex]

leaving your gc on with all your controllers plugged while you're at school praying your mom doesn't shut it down in order to unlock mewtwo...

i honestly don't miss that

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

True story: when I was real little and knew nothing about “internet” I didn’t know how to unlock everything so, with the exception of like Doctor Mario and Jigglypuff, I unlocked every single character through nothin but vs. matches between me and computers. Look it up, it took a lot of damn vs. matches to do that. Really proud of my 4-5 year-old self for that.

 

[NintenRob]

I just hope All-Star isn't involved with unlocking characters the normal way. I want to wait until after I have every character for that.

Dark Pit >:-(

 

[Deleted member]

Lol?

Characters are incredibly easy to unlock and you are complaining that you have to unlock them?

You can have all of them in one day without effort.

I would like if they were more and harder to unlock tbh.

Like unlocking Falco (I think) in Melee doing 15 min Multi Man Melee haha.

That was epic.

This. Either make unlocking characters a sense of accomplishment that requires a lot more than dying 500 times in one stock matches or get rid of it.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I say get rid of it.

Unlocking characters is just annoying and pointless. Unlocks shouldn't be stuff that ties directly into game balance.

In Smash's case it's perfectly fine for unlocks to be items, stages and costumes. But not characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, I love unlocking characters. It definitely should stay, as it adds to the game's overall design.

However, it definitely needs an easy way to unlock everything, like a built-in cheat system. Could also have that for all stages as well. Trophies and Music are more fun to get on your own though.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Why are people still talking about this? Do any of you have a problem with unlockables with cheat cods for those who don't want to do it the long way? If not, let's talk about something else.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I mean, it'd be pretty nice to be able to access characters I really want to play from the get-go, but at the same time I just feel like there would be something missing if no characters had to be unlocked. It wouldn't feel the same. I also think it would just be a little too easy, and with a large roster, I would probably feel a little overwhelmed if everyone was available from the start. I think it's nice to be able to get used to some of the characters you want to play, and unlock other characters you want to play along the way, learning some default characters before getting ready to try out the newly unlocked ones.

I'm not trying to argue or suggest whether it should stay or go, that's just how I feel about it, haha. In any case I wouldn't complain if we go a compromise and cheat codes were available for locked characters.

 

[N3ON]

I still remember how to unlock each character in 64 and Melee, haha. Good times. Except Mewtwo.

I personally don't have a problem with unlockables, but I'm also a crazy person who has all the characters within two days of getting the game. I can understand the argument for having them all available from the get-go, and should that come to pass, I wouldn't be torn up. A cheat code could also work, but I just don't see that being implemented. It's not really how Nintendo does things.

 

[NintenRob]

Why are people still talking about this? Do any of you have a problem with unlockables with cheat cods for those who don't want to do it the long way? If not, let's talk about something else.

Ok, but remember, you asked for the topic change.


I think Ridley should be in Smash now. Metroid is back with quality titles and I think it should get its second most important character in the game.

Who else agrees?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

No, no, no. That was misinformation.

Wario was never planned as a clone.

Then explain this:

"Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better."

 

[Deleted member]

Then explain this:

"Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better."

You might want to post the source of that quote.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Then explain this:

"Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better."

*ahem*

I will now perform the rite.

WAAAARIOOOOOOO STAROOOOOOOO NOSOOOOOO

CITE YOUR SOURCO!!!!!!

PushDustIn

Crush this fake quote with your translation power!

TEACH THE UNINFORMED THE TRUTH OF SAKURAI'S WORDS!!!

Spoiler: Push can explain it in more detail but going off of memory...

Wario wasn't considered to be a clone during Melee's development.


I remember the quote you have said being thrown around but it seems to be a mistranslated IIRC.

 

[Deleted member]

Then explain this:

"Wario was briefly considered as the Mario clone, with low speed and high attack power, but Sakurai felt that Wario deserved better."

As the others said, you need a link to the source.

Because I can tell you flat out that the source is wrong.

The original source came from cednym on NeoGAF, who had many claims of information supposedly found on old magazines and the Smash website itself.

PushDustIn of Source Gaming can attest that the information was fabricated.
https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/

Wario: “If I had time to add one more character, Wario would have made it in…”

—Reader Responses Page 12, News Flash! Smash Bros. Dojo!!

“If we could have added one or two more characters, then maybe he would have made it. He was certainly high up on the list of characters we considered but ultimately he didn’t make it.”

—Reader Responses Page 76, News Flash! Smash Bros. Dojo!!


Said source you found your information says that King Dedede was the option for one more non-clone character.
Right off the bat, that's incorrect information due to Sakurai saying Wario was.

As for the notion that he was considered as a clone....well....

There is no reliable source for Wario actually being seriously “considered for a Mario clone but he deserved better.” He did say “Wario could only have been included if we had given him the exact same figure and moveset as Mario,” but that’s all I can find regarding this topic of Wario and “deserving better,” which isn’t a sentiment Sakurai has ever expressed, to my knowledge.

That's the closest you're going to get to any information regarding that, since the original source you're talking about was not legitimate to begin with.

But at the very least, it was never a matter of "Dr. Mario or Wario as a Mario clone".

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I mean, it'd be pretty nice to be able to access characters I really want to play from the get-go, but at the same time I just feel like there would be something missing if no characters had to be unlocked. It wouldn't feel the same. I also think it would just be a little too easy, and with a large roster, I would probably feel a little overwhelmed if everyone was available from the start. I think it's nice to be able to get used to some of the characters you want to play, and unlock other characters you want to play along the way, learning some default characters before getting ready to try out the newly unlocked ones.

I'm not trying to argue or suggest whether it should stay or go, that's just how I feel about it, haha. In any case I wouldn't complain if we go a compromise and cheat codes were available for locked characters.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Unlocking characters, stages, etc. is a pretty fun experience, and I'd be OK if there were cheat codes in place that allows one to have everything available from the get-go; perhaps something like how Smash 4 has the option to erase the game's data once you press A, B, X, and Y at the same time while the game is loading?

That being said, I greatly dislike how Smash 4 handled unlcokables; everyone felt too easy to unlock, and there were a lot of characters who I felt were a little unfitting in the starting roster . There were also a lot of weird stuff going on. Why the heck is All-Star Mode available from the stat? Why the heck is Wario unlockable? Why are some of the stages unlcoked by simply using a ****ing Final Smash? Really, even with some difficult Challenges, everything just felt too simplified.

I'm of the camp that believes unlockables should go back to how it was in Melee and Brawl if the concept is revisited. I feel if the unlockables are this easy to get, what's the point of having them in the first place?

Either way, I highly doubt the concept will be dropped. Only way I can feasibly see it be abandoned is if Smash goes down a similar path to Splatoon or ARMS where we get constant updates to the roster.

 

[PushDustIn]

Swamp Sensei and @GoldenYuiitusin are correct. Wario wasn't considered for a clone character in Melee.

He ranked high in the high in the Smash Ballot for Melee, but because Sakurai felt there were too many Mario characters, Wario was not prioritized. The quote is in my Wario epic, Why Does Wario Fart (Direct link to the quote).

 

[Deleted member]

True story: when I was real little and knew nothing about “internet” I didn’t know how to unlock everything so, with the exception of like Doctor Mario and Jigglypuff, I unlocked every single character through nothin but vs. matches between me and computers. Look it up, it took a lot of damn vs. matches to do that. Really proud of my 4-5 year-old self for that.

It's also surprising you say you did that when you were 4-5 years old, as you're supposed to be at least 7 years old to play at video games.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

As for the thing on unlockable characters, I think they should stay. Here's my reasoning for this.

• Sense of achievement. I find unlockable stuff to be rewarding if this is pulled off optimally. It adds value to games by giving a goal to work towards if players knew about it ahead of time (like looking things up on the Internet) or attempt the game blind-folded.
• Looking at alternatives. I don't really like the idea of using a paywall to deal with this since since some players may not have enough funds for it. It segregates the players based on funding alone, especially if the game, for a lack of better terms, "blanks" the unpurchased ones out. Getting things immediately; Yeah, this would save time and everyone gets want they from the get go, but this may not give much value in the long run. The long run aspects are dimmed out and the game could burn out faster from a lack of goals or a sense of achievement. This would hold some water regardless of the game's quality.

The real weaknesses of my reasoning is that it relies on things being worth unlocking for and it circles back to the point of goals and achievements which can be lost on players for various reasons. I don't find the age of the "unlocking things" aspect as a compelling argument and I don't agree with "everything immediate" sentiments when it boils down to "I don't want to invest the time strictly because I don't feel like it". I understand people may not have the time to do such things and I am completely fine with that reasoning.

As for the unlocking methods, I think there should be multiple ways of doing so without cheating the player out of an experience or a sense of achievement. For example: Super Smash Bros. Brawl had the Subspace Emissary as a somewhat easy method and fight *insert number here* of battles to get this character.

This is my sense of the whole thing. I don't think the concept of unlocking characters or things should go away for good.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, but remember, you asked for the topic change.


I think Ridley should be in Smash now. Metroid is back with quality titles and I think it should get its second most important character in the game.
View attachment 137609
Who else agrees?

You are going to hate me, but if Sakurai is developing the next game, he still has a very low chance of making it. I will leave a like because that is a good point. I do agree that Ridley is too big for Smash for Switch though, simply because what are they going to do? They either have to make him really large or unnaturally small and give a good reason for it. I saw someone do it with Project M and other games. I will not complain if Ridley makes it in Smash for Switch, despite him being too big. I personally think Ridley is just too big and weird to place on, but I respect your opinion.

Swamp Sensei and @GoldenYuiitusin are correct. Wario wasn't considered for a clone character in Melee.

He ranked high in the high in the Smash Ballot for Melee, but because Sakurai felt there were too many Mario characters, Wario was not prioritized. The quote is in my Wario epic, Why Does Wario Fart (Direct link to the quote).

I have to agree that Wario is not a clone. I liked your Wario article!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Tell 'em like it is. Being a jerk is so much fun. We're the minority and represent balance.

I won't speak for you though if that's not what you want to be.

Lmao what the ****? Being a **** doesn't make you represent balance, especially as you usually threaten to block people when being proven wrong on something. If you have a job, try 'representing balance' to your boss, see how it goes.

Also, I played some Bayonetta the other day, it is a crime that the Smash team made remixes of Mysterious Destiny and Tomorrow is Mine without the mesmerizing vocals

 

[Cosmic77]

Ok, but remember, you asked for the topic change.


I think Ridley should be in Smash now. Metroid is back with quality titles and I think it should get its second most important character in the game.
View attachment 137609
Who else agrees?

Okay, I'll bite. Here's three reasons why I think Ridley supporters shouldn't give up on Ridley's chances in Smash 5 just yet.


(1) Sakurai doesn't want to be the director for Smash 5. Assuming he actually means it this time, the director who replaces him could feel differently about Ridley and fully support his inclusion (or immediately disregard him. It could go either way).

(2) The long awaited Prime 4 will be releasing in the near future. Not only will good sales of this game encourage further promotion of the Metroid series, but it also increase the chances of Smash getting a third Metroid rep. And who do we know from Metroid that would make a great addition? No, I am not suggesting Anthony Higgs.

(3) Leaked information suggests that Namco, the studio behind Smash 4, will be developing Prime 4. Needless to say, if the same studio ends up making both Prime 4 and Smash 5, then the odds of seeing Ridley (or any Prime 4/Metroid character) in Smash 5 will skyrocket.

You are going to hate me, but if Sakurai is developing the next game, he still has a very low chance of making it. I will leave a like because that is a good point. I do agree that Ridley is too big for Smash for Switch though, simply because what are they going to do? They either have to make him really large or unnaturally small and give a good reason for it. I saw someone do it with Project M and other games. I will not complain if Ridley makes it in Smash for Switch, despite him being too big. I personally think Ridley is just too big and weird to place on, but I respect your opinion.

Honestly, I think most people who consider Ridley's size a problem would probably come to accept a smaller Ridley if he was still kept bigger than nearly every other character. Pikachu is one of the smallest characters in the game, yet I haven't seen anyone complain that he's more than half the height of Mewtwo, a character who should easily tower over Pikachu by several feet.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

Ok, but remember, you asked for the topic change.


I think Ridley should be in Smash now. Metroid is back with quality titles and I think it should get its second most important character in the game.
View attachment 137609
Who else agrees?

Pay attention to Metroid Prime 4. That game would likely be the one that dictates if there is another Metroid character and who it would be if so.

 

[Luminario]

This might be sacrilege to say on this site, but I'd prefer a workable version of Mother Brain to be playable over Ridley. She's a big part of the Metroid world and could bring along the Metroids as part of her moveset. She'd need a workable design that fits Smash, so not the giant cyborg form and not Melissa, but something in between.

 

[Cosmic77]

This might be sacrilege to say on this site, but I'd prefer a workable version of Mother Brain to be playable over Ridley. She's a big part of the Metroid world and could bring along the Metroids as part of her moveset. She'd need a workable design that fits Smash, so not the giant cyborg form and not Melissa, but something in between.

She might not be on the same level as Ridley, but Mother Brain is indeed a big part of Metroid. I just don't think the development team would go out of their way to not only resize her but also create a special design that could work in Smash. In a way, that's like taking a big step backwards from the problem we have with Ridley, who has a decent design but not a manageable size.

 

[Freduardo]

This might be sacrilege to say on this site, but I'd prefer a workable version of Mother Brain to be playable over Ridley. She's a big part of the Metroid world and could bring along the Metroids as part of her moveset. She'd need a workable design that fits Smash, so not the giant cyborg form and not Melissa, but something in between.

My Smash Metroid heresy is that I really want Weevil from Hunters.

I happen to think one B move that leaves the lower half as a turret and lets you run around on your hands with limited attacks, jumping and slashing things sounds like a new style that could be great in Smash.

 

[Luminario]

She might not be on the same level as Ridley, but Mother Brain is indeed a big part of Metroid. I just don't think the development team would go out of their way to not only resize her but also create a special design that could work in Smash. In a way, that's like taking a big step backwards from the problem we have with Ridley, who has a decent design but not a manageable size.

A good hypothetical story for a Smash worthy Mother Brain is that she was sick and tired of Samus ****ing up her plans time and time again, so she created her own power suit that was on par with Samus'.

 

[Freduardo]

A good hypothetical story for a Smash worthy Mother Brain is that she was sick and tired of Samus ****ing up her plans time and time again, so she created her own power suit that was on par with Samus'.

Samus vs Dark Samus vs Mother Brain Samus vs... federation force

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This might be sacrilege to say on this site, but I'd prefer a workable version of Mother Brain to be playable over Ridley. She's a big part of the Metroid world and could bring along the Metroids as part of her moveset. She'd need a workable design that fits Smash, so not the giant cyborg form and not Melissa, but something in between.

Honestly, besides her monstrous form in Other M, which could easily be downsized, her Captain N tank form surprisingly could work extremely well, though the latter probably would work better as a boss. But it doesn't lack move options(nor movement options), and I'm not sure it could be balanced with that huge of a hitbox. Also, if Nintendo does legit own Captain N like I keep hearing, remodeling that design to work in Smash would be interesting.

Wish I had a good picture of her on a tank, but eh. The Assist Trophy in Smash 4 already has the same ideal design overall, just missing the tank, so simply adding that could be enough. But as I said, balance might be the major problem as is.

Mind you, Ridley's my first choice, but Mother Brain is honestly pretty awesome(and also one of the most memorable characters of that show. Helps that she has personality, unlike in the games where she's nothing more than a monstrous boss either way).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You people know Mother Brain has a humanoid form in Other M right?