Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

You know, James Bond was at one point considered for Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64. Now as most probably know, James Bond is not a video game character. He was never added to the game and since then it has become a rule that a character must originate from a video game. But what if things didn't go that way? What if James Bond had been added to Smash 64? Perhaps the franchise as we know it would be very different today thanks to the Butterfly Effect of Bond's inclusion as a character not from a video game. Discuss.

SPONGEBOB Squeezes the Competition!
(with Patrick as a secondary rep)

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

It was actually Melee that James Bond was considered for, but the legal hoops Sakurai would have had to leap through to get him in (actor likeness, James Bond not being a video game character, Rare having recently been sold to Microsoft, among others) caused the idea to fall through.

 

[BlueMagician]

I actually thought the Squad Strike would be King of Fighters style, based on the description of one of the two modes.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'm going to rate my hype for each newcomer so far on a scale of 1-to-10 with the subsequent explanation behind each.

: 5. That's cool, and not a big surprise. I'm happy more for the people who actively play Splatoon a lot.

: 6. I was happy to see Daisy because my best friend is a Peach main, whom always picked Daisy's color to boot. He was super psyched to see her and I was happy for him.

: 6. The BIG war finally ends. Finally people could stop asking for him on a daily basis and we could all move on to more interesting things; such as arguing the viability of his moveset. Despite my lesser hype, he looks really good.

: 7. There we go, now that's a satisfying newcomer that I was actually hoping would make it! NES retro, check! Third party, check! Love poured into his series representation, double check!

: 7. You've got to be kidding me! There's no way! Scratch away that "rule" we thought we had which allowed only 1 rep per third-party.

: 8. OK this one got me a bit more excited because I often used a Mii Swordfighter with Chrom's outfit. I named him "Pr. Crumb" and he was very fun to play. Seeing the real thing kick the door down was a surprise joy to me. (I didn't even like Chrom in Awakening an equivalent amount to make sense of this). I'm going to play him for sure.

: 8. That's sick and many people are happy right now. A fine addition to the roster!

: 7. I was happier more for other people, but I really appreciated this addition. Not only does Ultimate give us 2 super heavyweights, to make up for Sm4sh not adding one to their roster, but now we're getting closer to an 8-player Smash with only super heavies.

Overall, I'm pleased with these well above average additions to the roster. But, nothing had me screaming yet. But I know it doesn't end here.

 

[Will]

The guy was asking where BK was from. You gave him an answer with "Roy's game" (Binding Blade). He was seemingly content because his question was answered. It's misinformation because you gave someone the wrong info. Sure, Google exists, but why would that guy need to google BK/Tellius if he "knew" that BK was from Binding Blade when his question was answered?

Late to respond because I showered but... I'm like 200% sure he knew?

When you played every FE except Ike's game but don't know a character and asked which games he's from, isn't it common sense?
Because that's the joke.

 

[eltacoenojado]

Late to the party, but here's my newcomer ranking:

 

[Chandeelure]

I was watching this video:

And I noticed an error, that guy used Ice Climbers with the colour that changes Popo's and Nana's places, but they still have the same voices.
Nana is the leader, but she has Popo's voice lol.

Literally unplayable.

 

[Luigi The President]

Mine actually is a prediction list tho..


Richter is a hard guess, I mean it’s very possible it could be fake but im playing it safeish.

I just don’t think 2 Mario reps are getting in the base game (besides Echos). Also Geno has more going for him than paper but I know Paper is popular and feel he has a good shot as dlc.

Richter is not a hard guess if you know anything about Castlevania is the thing. He's the Wolverine of the Castlevania series; incredibly popular. He's well known to many gamers from SOTN and other classics. The leaker clearly just figured Castlevania would be represented in some form and decided to switch things up from other leaks. Remember that he completely ruled Simon out?
Believe me though, I'd love that leak to be real because I think we all know who "Mario02" is.

I feel that Geno's in a different spot than your typical Mario rep.
He's technically a third party, and it feels to me that less see him as a Mario rep more than they do as just...Geno. If that makes sense?

 

[Knight Dude]

Regardless of who they add next, just remember...

it should've been Zero

Mega Man X is cooler though. Helps that MMX is sleek and clean looking too. Whereas Zero's over-designed and a tryhard.

 

[Deleted member]

Late to respond because I showered but... I'm like 200% sure he knew?

When you played every FE except Ike's game but don't know a character and asked which games he's from, isn't it common sense?
Because that's the joke.

Yeah but it's a bad joke.

I was watching this video:

And I noticed an error, that guy used Ice Climbers with the colour that changes Popo's and Nana's places, but they still have the same voices.
Nana is the leader, but she has Popo's voice lol.

Literally unplayable.

Just let Popo wear pink man

 

[Luigi The President]

I was watching this video:

And I noticed an error, that guy used Ice Climbers with the colour that changes Popo's and Nana's places, but they still have the same voices.
Nana is the leader, but she has Popo's voice lol.

Literally unplayable.

Cancelling my not-yet-preordered preorder.

 

[Idon]

Mega Man X is cooler though. Helps that MMX is sleek and clean looking too. Whereas Zero's over-designed and a tryhard.

Yeah, but what is he fighting for?

 

[Deleted member]

And I noticed an error

No Bandana Dee reveal trailer?

Hmm...

Didn't know that the Monster Hunter was one of the "Untouchables"

"Untouchables"?

 

[Momotsuki]

So I've noticed we essentially have tiers of fighters.
1 - Original Fighters. (Mario, Link, Marth.)
2 - Clones that aren't quite similar enough to be Echo Fighters. (Dr. Mario, Young Link, Roy.)
3 - Echo Fighters. (Daisy, Dark Samus, Dark Pit.)
4 - Character alts with their own properties with no affect on gameplay. (Alph, the Koopalings.)

So then, what do you think of the possibility that we may get some new tier 4 fighters in Ultimate? I mean, they really haven't been discussed very much but I think they may be around for a few characters with other characters that are so similar that even an echo would be difficult to rationalize, i.e. Dark Meta Knight.

 

[Will]

Yeah but it's a bad joke.

And I was playing along to said bad joke.

Yeah, but what is he fighting for?

To never go back to Marvel vs Capcom

 

[Luigi The President]

I'm going to rate my hype for each newcomer so far on a scale of 1-to-10 with the subsequent explanation behind each.

: 5. That's cool, and not a big surprise. I'm happy more for the people who actively play Splatoon a lot.

: 6. I was happy to see Daisy because my best friend is a Peach main, whom always picked Daisy's color to boot. He was super psyched to see her and I was happy for him.

: 6. The BIG war finally ends. Finally people could stop asking for him on a daily basis and we could all move on to more interesting things; such as arguing the viability of his moveset. Despite my lesser hype, he looks really good.

: 7. There we go, now that's a satisfying newcomer that I was actually hoping would make it! NES retro, check! Third party, check! Love poured into his series representation, double check!

: 7. You've got to be kidding me! There's no way! Scratch away that "rule" we thought we had which allowed only 1 rep per third-party.

: 8. OK this one got me a bit more excited because I often used a Mii Swordfighter with Chrom's outfit. I named him "Pr. Crumb" and he was very fun to play. Seeing the real thing kick the door down was a surprise joy to me. (I didn't even like Chrom in Awakening an equivalent amount to make sense of this). I'm going to play him for sure.

: 8. That's sick and many people are happy right now. A fine addition to the roster!

: 7. I was happier more for other people, but I really appreciated this addition. Not only does Ultimate give us 2 super heavyweights, to make up for Sm4sh not adding one to their roster, but now we're getting closer to an 8-player Smash with only super heavies.

Overall, I'm pleased with these well above average additions to the roster. But, nothing had me screaming yet. But I know it doesn't end here.

Hey dude, just wanted you to know it's incredibly uplifting to see people like you in this fanbase who are simply happy for others!

So I've noticed we essentially have tiers of fighters.
1 - Original Fighters. (Mario, Link, Marth.)
2 - Clones that aren't quite similar enough to be Echo Fighters. (Dr. Mario, Young Link, Roy.)
3 - Echo Fighters. (Daisy, Dark Samus, Dark Pit.)
4 - Character alts with their own properties with no affect on gameplay. (Alph, the Koopalings.)

So then, what do you think of the possibility that we may get some new tier 4 fighters in Ultimate? I mean, they really haven't been discussed very much but I think they may be around for a few characters with other characters that are so similar that even an echo would be difficult to rationalize, i.e. Dark Meta Knight.

As in more alternate costumes?
I simply can't see any characters who couldn't be an Echo but could be an Alt. Alph kinda screws things up. Dark Meta Knight could work as a simple palette swap unless I'm dumb and misinformed?

 

[Zinith]

"Untouchables"?

Basically one of those characters no one should ever say bad things about ever...

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I don't know how anybody can look back at Smash 4's newcomers and try to call it underwhelming.

Ok, I'll play Devil's Advocate here.

"I don't know how anybody can look back at Smash 4's newcomers and try to call it underwhelming" is absolutely an opinion. In much the same way that there may exist people around here who don't think that K.Rool and Rildey are not the hypest thing in the world now.

You've got Villager, the face of Animal Crossing, the last of Nintendo's major franchises to not make it into Smash.

...which not everybody may like. Think about the inklings - yeah they had fans, but a lot of people more expected them in smash than wanted them. Just because something expected happens doesn't mean that everyone will think it's the best thing in the world.

The super fighting robot Mega Man, one of the most beloved video game franchises ever, back in his purest form.

...which doesn't really hold nostalgia value to anyone who hasn't played Mega Man. Or to the people who are Nintendo purists.

Little Mac, the star of the Nintendo franchise most suited towards fighting and a fan favorite.

...again, not every fan was big on Punch-out. It's pretty niche, old, and region-specific.

Mii Fighters on the whole were tremendous, it allowed for so much creativity and fun.

...but the customization was a mess and there was no easy way to unlock all of the hats/outfits. Plus a lot of their moves were expies of other characters.

Pac-Man, the grandfather of gaming and the king of the arcades.

...again, Nintendo purists prefer fewer third parties, and he came with what is widely considered the ugliest stage.

Fire Emblem got a character without a Down-B counter (okay this a meme but Robin is at least by far the most unique FE character).

...if that's the only thing that people hate about Fire Emblem... Not to mention he's an avatar with little actual personality and got in above the main character - who was also done very dirty in exchange.

Shulk was a huge fan desire and brought Xenoblade back into popularity, pushing it to be a real franchise.

...and gave another generic anime looking guy from a very niche franchise, enough that many people considered him a 'Literally Who.' Also region-specific enough to be revealed in a Japan-only direct.

Wii Fit Trainer was the meme, her being initially (and somewhat post-release) unpopular is typical.

...and some people prefer time not be spent on weird WTF characters.

Duck Hunt was the B-Side to Super Mario Bros. and one of the most well-known (and infamous) NES games.

...and is one of the most hated characters in gaming. Also, well forgotten by a lot of the fanbase as well.

And Rosalina, Greninja, Palutena, and Bowser Jr. were also characters who were extremely appreciated by their fandoms.

...Rosalina was pretty well a character that Mario was shoving into everything by that point, so again the difference between expected and wanted. Greninja was widely considered the character that took Mewtwo's spot and was hated for it, also that X/Y were very recent so it didn't have much time to gain traction. Palutena was another expected character, but was also destroyed by the customs, both before (why is she so special?) and after (why is she so bad?). BJ was from an older game at this point, and contributed to Mario oversaturation.

And the clones of course were all from oversaturated franchises, while Alph stayed an alt costume.

I I'll even ignore the immense weight of Ryu and Cloud joining as DLC.

Three veterans who cost as much as newcomers, instead of highly requested characters, including one who further oversaturated Fire Emblem.
Three third parties, two of whom are from rather large series, but started to mark the shift to the 'too many third parties' argument. The third being one from a relatively niche game series which is more than a little inappropriate, and declared the winner of the ballot, when it's now seen that that data was fudged.
And a complete newcomer from an entirely overrepped series from a game which hadn't even released in all regions, making him blatant advertising.

Meanwhile, there were several clear frontrunners in the 'fan requests,' who all ended up not in.

Not every fighter strikes gold, but you can't deny that the game brought some heavy hitters as well as some highly-desired fan choices. And don't act like every Smash before For had a golden, flawless roster. 64 had freaking Jigglypuff, and Melee brought in the likes of Dr. Mario, Roy, and Pichu. As much as people hated Brawl's roster before release, in hindsight, it has the fewest 'questionable' picks. You can forgive Smash 4 for having Lucina and Dark Pit.

But it is also wrong to declare that Sm4sh was flawless for everyone for having things that you like. Each person will see their own thing, and not everyone likes or wants the same as you.

---

Now, before anyone gets mad and wants to argue, the above aren't necessarily my opinions. I just wanted to play Devil's Advocate for everything. For me, there were some characters I really liked, and some I really didn't. I do consider Sm4sh one of the weaker rosters since it cut many of my favorites while not delivering any newcomers I wanted. Brawl was my favorite before Ultimate simply because that was the roster that gave me my hypest newcomers.

So yes, I found Sm4sh underwhelming. It didn't deliver Ridley, K.Rool, the Pokémon Trainer, it cut transformations, and only gave me a few characters I like and no newcomers from any game I had ever played. I accept that there were probably loads of people who liked it, which is perfectly fine. I didn't, and I stopped playing Sm4sh within about a year. Brawl held my interest significantly longer.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Something to chew on, but the characters we've gotten haven't necessarily gotten in because they're "important" or "relevant".

Daisy got in as an echo because she could be based on Peach and had a lot of requests. This is where Waluigi could not have happened, because he couldn't be a clone of somebody else.

We got Chrom, who is a clone of Roy. Chrom was added, specifically, because as Sakurai mentioned, he was popular among fans in Japan. We got Dark Samus because of ease of access to assets of Samus, and her popularity in America.

Like, I don't know. This fanbase talks all the time about how "popular" characters like Ashley and Mimikyu were locks for the game, and then complains when characters get in literally because of popularity.

I don't want to be a **** about it, and I love talking about Smash, but it's amazing how the discussions are almost entirely based not on logic or how characters would play, but more of, "This character is likely because I want them to be" or "This character deserves to be in because I want them to be playable". I can't take that seriously.

Deserving a spot is not only an argument that isn't rooted in anything factual (fictional characters aren't deserving of anything, because what they do is all because of somebody else), but it also doesn't substitute good gameplay, or gameplay that Sakurai just deals with because "Oh, well they're deserving. Looks like I have to add them".

Is the character FUN??? That's what should matter at the end of the day. Not how many copies their series has sold, not the color of the hair, and certainly not the weapon they use. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if Fire Emblem got more characters because their movesets are just...fun. They're basic. People like basic and fun movesets.

As some have said, despite the amount of sword users in the game, none of them can be played the same way. They're all different, even in small ways. The only reason fans complain about one type of character is, spoiler alert, because their favorite isn't in. If they get their particular choice, they won't give a **** anymore. Example) Me. I got everything I wanted, but still would love to see Geno because he'd be fun as hell.

Also, if the argument is that a series "doesn't deserve" another character, then there's not much I can say. Slots aren't a thing. Sakurai makes this game to satisfy the most people he can, and he felt he could do that by adding Chrom. Adding Chrom over your character of choice didn't actually happen, because he didn't pick between Chrom and your character. He picked Chrom because he took little time, and a lot of people wanted him.

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

You know, James Bond was at one point considered for Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64. Now as most probably know, James Bond is not a video game character. He was never added to the game and since then it has become a rule that a character must originate from a video game. But what if things didn't go that way? What if James Bond had been added to Smash 64? Perhaps the franchise as we know it would be very different today thanks to the Butterfly Effect of Bond's inclusion as a character not from a video game. Discuss.

I think Bond is iconic and could've "deserved" to be in Smash 64 based on how amazing Goldeneye 007 was, with it we would've had other any content from any big franchises such as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, even Aliens if it were the case. But there's one big factor that makes Smash what it is today, it's identity. Smash Bros is nothing more but a celebration to gaming, and it has always been that way ever since. For that to be taken away loses its magic & uniqueness. I felt with 4th parties, Smash Bros would be an even worse position than it ever needs to be, all the complaints of "if X is here, so should Y",

In other words, it'll be in the same position as the Sonic community if that was the case. I don't want to imagine the outcome.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

SPONGEBOB Squeezes the Competition!
(with Patrick as a secondary rep)

You joke, but Spongebob has a lot of source material to draw from.

Spoiler: Panels from the Manga

Spongebob would be amazing and you can't deny it.

 

[Luigi The President]

You joke, but Spongebob has a lot of source material to draw from.

Spoiler: Panels from the Manga

Spongebob would be amazing and you can't deny it.

Spongebob is my favorite show of all time! I'd main him in a heartbeat.

 

[Jetsurge]

I was watching this video:

And I noticed an error, that guy used Ice Climbers with the colour that changes Popo's and Nana's places, but they still have the same voices.
Nana is the leader, but she has Popo's voice lol.

Literally unplayable.

I noticed that Cloud got nerfed harder than Greninja

 

[DarthEnderX]

IAnd I noticed an error, that guy used Ice Climbers with the colour that changes Popo's and Nana's places, but they still have the same voices.
Nana is the leader, but she has Popo's voice

because she wasn't leader. They just swapped coats.

 

[Deleted member]

I just realized something.

I know we consider a retro NES rep to be a tradition for each Smash game, but when you think about it, Simon kinda already fills that spot, especially using his NES design and how faithful he is to the original games.

Food for thought, I suppose. My idea probably doesn't work anyway, as Duck Hunt still got in after Mega Man, who like Simon, is super inspired by his NES design.

I wonder, though: We're all speculating based off of old ideas and patterns, but I almost wonder if we're all way more off the mark than we realize. Nearly every supposed rule and tradition that we as fans seem to think Smash HAD to adhere to has been broken with Ultimate, so I wonder if the people thinking there doesn't necessarily have to be a Pokemon newcomer or new retro/random character might be on to something. I'm probably wrong in thinking this, but eh, it's an interesting idea.

 

[Knight Dude]

Yeah, but what is he fighting for?

Everlasting peace. Duh.

 

[Dixie Kong]

I reallllly don't want fourth party characters, but if there were, Spongebob would be great.

 

[Luigi The President]

I just realized something.

I know we consider a retro NES rep to be a tradition for each Smash game, but when you think about it, Simon kinda already fills that spot, especially using his NES design and how faithful he is to the original games.

Food for thought, I suppose. My idea probably doesn't work anyway, as Duck Hunt still got in after Mega Man, who like Simon, is super inspired by his NES design.

I wonder, though: We're all speculating based off of old ideas and patterns, but I almost wonder if we're all way more off the mark than we realize. Nearly every supposed rule and tradition that we as fans seem to think Smash HAD to adhere to has been broken with Ultimate, so I wonder if the people thinking there doesn't necessarily have to be a Pokemon newcomer or new retro/random character might be on to something. I'm probably wrong in thinking this, but eh, it's an interesting idea.

I feel there's a Pokemon newcomer just because of Vergeben.
I don't expect a retro/random as much as I usually would, just because this selection process definitely feels different from the usual we get in Smash. I'd say Simon and Richter classify as random on their own!

 

[Momotsuki]

Geno really is an enigma. He'd be a third-party fighter who would (probably) represent a first-party series. But yet given his sheer support as well as the rumors of an unspecified character owned by Square Enix, I think he's pretty hecking likely and hope to see him in to bring an amazing happiness to those who have waited so long. It feels so surreal to think about living in a time where Ridley and King K. Rool are in Smash, and Geno has a decent shot. It's something years ago we'd have all laughed at the idea of followed by a sigh and "If only..." Yet here we are.

 

[Chandeelure]

because she wasn't leader. They just swapped coats.

Did they also swap haircuts?

 

[Roberk]

Late to respond because I showered but... I'm like 200% sure he knew?

When you played every FE except Ike's game but don't know a character and asked which games he's from, isn't it common sense?
Because that's the joke.

Mr. Wario

Oh, okay then. Cool, cool, I wasn't sure seeing as how I haven't played any of the FEs that Ike is in yet. Which one is Black Knight from?

Where does he say that he has played any FE game? The only info he shares is that he hasn't played "any of the FE's that Ike is in" (Tellius).

The "Joke" as you like to call it is that you mistook "I haven't played any of the FE's that Ike is in yet." for "I've played every FE except Ike's games."

Please, if he has some post proving me wrong I'm fine with that. But after combing a few pages back, the info that he was played every FE game except for Tellius was simply not present.

 

[drag0nscythe]

So, any serious suggestions for more smash banners. I have about 3-5 left in me before I run out of steam on them. If they belong to an established series, it is even easier to add.

and on a side note. I have been starring at the fake website for so long, it is going to feel weird going to the real one. So many dreams on that thing.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So, any serious suggestions for more smash banners. I have about 3-5 left in me before I run out of steam on them. If they belong to an established series, it is even easier to add.

Spongebob.

I'm completely serious.

 

[Luigi The President]

Mr. Wario


Where does he say that he has played any FE game? The only info he shares is that he hasn't played "any of the FE's that Ike is in" (Tellius).

The "Joke" as you like to call it is that you mistook "I haven't played any of the FE's that Ike is in yet." for "I've played every FE except Ike's games."

Please, if he has some post proving me wrong I'm fine with that. But after combing a few pages back, the info that he was played every FE game except for Tellius was simply not present.

Guys...guys, I don't mean to interrupt but...can we just drop this? It's kinda reminding me of that bit in Ace Attorney where they cross-examine the parrot.

 

[Iridium]

This is something. Well, imagine if this really happened.

 

[Momotsuki]

Elma is cool and would definitely be a welcome addition as a sword wielder with hair that is not blue and with some unique flair to her fighting style.

 

[Deleted member]

You joke, but Spongebob has a lot of source material to draw from.

Spoiler: Panels from the Manga

Spongebob would be amazing and you can't deny it.

This is one of my favorite posts in this entire thread. One of.

I really do not know my actaul favorite.

This is something. Well, imagine if this really happened.

This has been covered to death, it is probably a coincidence to show the XC fans, not Smash fans.
If this was the case and we got Elma, that would be wack.

 

[FantasticMr.StarPit]

So, any serious suggestions for more smash banners. I have about 3-5 left in me before I run out of steam on them. If they belong to an established series, it is even easier to add.

and on a side note. I have been starring at the fake website for so long, it is going to feel weird going to the real one. So many dreams on that thing.

Could you do a Medusa banner? Because that is literally all I asked for. Nothing more.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Taunt parties are fun but very disruptive. Maybe they could have For Fun as well as For Glory as their usual intended selves, and an Anything Goes mode for that nonsense? Perhaps if you're temporarily banned you'd be restricted to only playing in Anything Goes mode until the ban expires?

The problem is that there's no way to actually moderate Taunt Parties; you can restrict actual taunts, automatically kick players who do no inputs for an extended period of time, and prevent players from choosing stages (i.e. no longer allowing griefers to constantly pick massive stages to run away on), but there's nothing you can do to actually force players to fight and not just **** around. The best that can be done is a reporting feature, but that doesn't help if the Taunt Partiers aren't in the minority.

FFA modes like Basic Brawl/For Fun are just destined to devolve to mostly Taunt Parties once the casual playerbase supporting them mostly leaves.

 

[Will]

This is something. Well, imagine if this really happened.

And it did happen.
Xenoblade 2 DLC baybeeeeee