Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shroob]

I wonder what would be his tagline … Ken echoes in (?)

"Ken has joined the battle!!!" just like Chrom and Dark Samus before him is my guess.

 

[KMDP]

But I would like to get Camilla in Smash

I too would like Camilla in Smash. (Though Charlotte is better)

Relevant is whatever the person arguing wants it to be. Every character is simultaneously relevant and irrelevant.

"Why did Link get in Smash? He isn't relevant! He hasn't had a release in a year and a half! Sakubias!"

...Did I do it right?

 

[RandomAce]

I wonder what would be his tagline … Ken echoes in (?)

Ken JOINS THE BATTLE!

Echoes don’t have tag lines, see Chrom and Dark Samus.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I wonder what would be his tagline … Ken echoes in (?)

Dark Samus and Chrom didn't get one

 

[Deleted member]

"Why did Link get in Smash? He isn't relevant! He hasn't had a release in a year and a half! Sakubias!"

...Did I do it right?

Close, but you also need to claim that *insert character* is far more relevant, and deserves to be in far more than Link. Maybe also claim that because Link is so irrelevant, he should be cut.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Ken JOINS THE BATTLE!

Echoes don’t have tag lines, see Chrom and Dark Samus.

didn't have one though?

 

[Will]

Any chance for Bright Pit?

Dark Pit isn't dumb so I guess you already have your Bright Pit.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

didn't have one though?

Only because he was in the same trailer as Simon.

 

[cothero]

I don't think a cause and effect applies here.

Even if Richter is in the game, that doesn't mean that Ken is guaranteed(Though hearing Vergeben say he's in is definitely a nice feeling, I like Ken)

Ken would be a perfect echo, with fire shoryuken (stronger than Ryu's) and weaker hadoukens, just like in the original games.

 

[Shroob]

didn't have one though?

Richter was part of Simon's reveal trailer. Ken would be an echo of a veteran at this point.

 

[DarkFalcon]

If there was ever gonna be a pun for an Echo character, Dark Samus would have been the obvious choice.

 

[Will]

didn't have one though?

He did, but he was included in Simon's trailer.

 

[KMDP]

I wonder what would be his tagline … Ken echoes in (?)

"Here comes a New Challenger! Ken!"

Same as Ryu's.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Does anyone have a clue how long it'd take to make Echoes? I mean, obviously nowhere near the amount of work a full character has, but I'd imagine model work would still take some time, and someone like Dark Samus has a lot more animation changes than say, Dark Pit.

1-2 days. A week at most, but that's if only a very low amount of the development team are working on said echo

Bandana Waddle Dee is one of the most popular character requests in Japan.

He definitely has a large fanbase.

If he's denied for any reason, it will be due to Sakurai.

The cutting room floor with characters has to end somewhere to finish a game.

On the bright side, he hasn't shown to be unplayable in any capacity, so wcs, there's hope for a DLC campaign... assuming DLC doesn't go the same route of Smash 4.

 

[THE 6r]

I'm just holding on to Isaac being in at this point and hoping for the best.

 

[Aerospherology]

didn't have one though?

He was revealed in his base character's trailer.

 

[DarkFalcon]

1-2 days. A week at most, but that's if only a very low amount of the development team are working on said echo

Really? I would think the model would take the most time, and if they're altering animations to some, I'd think a couple weeks minimum unless a lot of staff are working on it. Dark Pit I could see being extremely quick but some others I'd think would take longer than what you said.

 

[KMDP]

Lucina and Richter are special in that they are the only two Echoes to get taglines.

Actually, I think they're the only two clones to get taglines in general.

As a matter of interest, both are firsts out of the Echoes. Lucina is the first Echo and Richter is the first third party Echo.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I wonder what would be his tagline … Ken echoes in (?)

Ken masters the competition!

 

[Paperchampion23]

Interesting thing to note about Geno: There were 6 DLC Packs for Mii Costumes. Geno was the only character for DLC Pack 5: https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Mii_Outfits

I'm not sure why this was done, but he also was the only Mii costume to get a title card:

So yeah, Geno has a bit of special treatment by Sakurai and the Smash Developers. There is a reason why people think he's likely in this time around (If Square gave them the right to make these costumes, what's the problem for letting them work on an original character?)

Additionally, if the inclusion of these Mii costumes and their potential sales point to anything (so far, Chrom, K. Rool, and Inkling are in, while Ashley, Knuckles, and Zero are Assist trophies), then the following Characters could still be considered as potentials for Smash Ultimate:

Isabelle
Heihachi (Bamco)
Akira/Jacky (Sega)
Black Knight
Lloyd (Bamco)
Viridi
Monster Hunter (Capcom)
Geno (Square)
Gil (Bamco)
Majora's Mask

With the rest of costumed characters being deconfirmed (either being Assist Trophies, part of a Final Smash or move (Toad), etc).

So going over each:

Isabelle: If Vergeben is correct, she is in

Heihachi and Lloyd: Being Bamco characters and Smash now being a Bamco created game, these costumes may have been added because of this reason (to see if there is any interest in a Bamco character for the game). Either could happen, just don't know IF they'll happen. Could be either AT's or Characters.

Akira/Jacky: Sega reps. To me, Virtua Fighter just seems like a lesser Tekken/Street Fighter in terms of competition so I'm not sure if they'd ever be considered. At most maybe an AT.

Black Knight: As per the screenshots posted before, his absence in the background (if its him) may hint at his inclusion if Sakurai wanted to eliminate redundancy. Echo fighter for Ike is possible.

Viridi: I could see her happening, but I'm not sure how much priority Sakurai would put for her over Medusa, who'd fit better as an Echo fighter (but perhaps he makes her one with different proportions?). However I can see both happening over someone like Hades. She could be a very cool AT however, while Medusa takes the role of Echo fighter.

Monster Hunter: It being conspicuously absent from Rathalos's trailer and likely the difficuly in making a balanced moveset (You'd have 14 different weapon types to choose from) possibly means its not in the base roster at least. I don't see him/her being an AT, since Rathalos is in, but perhaps a DLC character in the future since Monster Hunter is more popular than ever before.

Geno: Explained earlier. I have reasons to believe he is in the game.

Gil: I actually see this being the surprise/wtf/retro character. It, however, is yet another 3rd party character owned by Bamco. Like Lloyd and Heihachi, I'm just not sure what their reasoning was for including this Mii costume, only that its possible Bamco wanted the Smash 4 team to gauge who fans might have liked out of the 3 while they worked on Ultimate post-2015.

Majora's Mask: This is a tricky one. The mask is not a character, but primarily owned by Skull Kid. However, due to Skull Kid's "hints" (possible removal as an AT/Replaced with the Moon, item that performs his exact same function as an AT, Young Link's final smash being hidden, remixed MM music in Ultimate, Termina returning, etc) and common acceptance as a possible character for Ultimate, I'll say that its possible he is a character.

So out of all of this, if I had to guess, based solely on Mii Costumes:

Unique Newcomers:
Geno
Skull Kid
Heihachi/Lloyd/Gil

Echo Fighters:
Medusa
Isabelle
Black Knight

AT's:
Viridi
Akira/Jacky
Heihachi/Lloyd/Gil (Whomever does not get a newcomer promotion, perhaps none receive one)


I want to make it clear that aside from these characters, everyone else from the Mii costume list is represented so far in Smash Ultimate in some way, new or old! Be it an assist trophy (Ashley, Zero, etc), actual newcomers (K. Rool, Inkling, Chrom, etc), final smash assets (Proto-man, Mega Man .exe,

And just to make clear: This has nothing to do with characters not on this list. Ridley was not a mii costume. Dark Samus was not a Mii costume, Daisy was not a Mii costume. Isaac, a pokemon, Banjo, Bandana Dee, Albert Einstein, and George Washington all still have the ability to get into Smash.

In all seriousness though, this just may point at who we could expect outside of other obvious characters.

Any thoughts?

 

[cothero]

Sakurai is probably holding the third party echoes for the next Direct, alongside other first party. "I told you to not expect too many new challengers, huh? Take this."

 

[Deleted member]

Takamaru: Could very well still be an AT. Sakurai has since said that he was planned to be a character, but scrapped due to extreme obscurity for western audiences. Yes Marth/Roy were extremely obscure back in Melee, but the game was not nearly a world phenomenon like it is now. I see him staying an AT, he just wasn't revealed.

Takamaru is still an AT.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Interesting thing to note about Geno: There were 6 DLC Packs for Mii Costumes. Geno was the only character for DLC Pack 5: https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Mii_Outfits

I'm not sure why this was done, but he also was the only Mii costume to get a title card:

So yeah, Geno has a bit of special treatment by Sakurai and the Smash Developers. There is a reason why people think he's likely in this time around (If Square gave them the right to make these costumes, what's the problem for letting them work on an original character?)

Additionally, if the inclusion of these Mii costumes and their potential sales point to anything (so far, Chrom, K. Rool, and Inkling are in, while Ashley, Knuckles, and Zero are Assist trophies), then the following Characters could still be considered as potentials for Smash Ultimate:

Isabelle
Heihachi (Bamco)
Akira/Jacky (Sega)
Black Knight
Lloyd (Bamco)
Viridi
Monster Hunter (Capcom)
Geno
Takamaru
Gil
Majora's Mask

With the rest of costumed characters being deconfirmed (either being Assist Trophies, part of a Final Smash or move (Toad), etc).

So going over each:

Isabelle: If Vergeben is correct, she is in

Heihachi and Lloyd: Being Bamco characters and Smash now being a Bamco created game, these costumes may have been added because of this reason (to see if there is any interest in a Bamco character for the game). Either could happen, just don't know IF they'll happen. Could be either AT's or Characters.

Akira/Jacky: Sega reps. To me, Virtua Fighter just seems like a lesser Tekken/Street Fighter in terms of competition so I'm not sure if they'd ever be considered. At most maybe an AT.

Black Knight: As per the screenshots posted before, his absence in the background (if its him) may hint at his inclusion if Sakurai wanted to eliminate redundancy. Echo fighter for Ike is possible.

Viridi: I could see her happening, but I'm not sure how much priority Sakurai would put for her over Medusa, who'd fit better as an Echo fighter (but perhaps he makes her one with different proportions?). However I can see both happening over someone like Hades. She could be a very cool AT however, while Medusa takes the role of Echo fighter.

Monster Hunter: It being conspicuously absent from Rathalos's trailer and likely the difficuly in making a balanced moveset (You'd have 14 different weapon types to choose from) possibly means its not in the base roster at least. I don't see him/her being an AT, since Rathalos is in, but perhaps a DLC character in the future since Monster Hunter is more popular than ever before.

Geno: Explained earlier. I have reasons to believe he is in the game.

Takamaru: Could very well still be an AT. Sakurai has since said that he was planned to be a character, but scrapped due to extreme obscurity for western audiences. Yes Marth/Roy were extremely obscure back in Melee, but the game was not nearly a world phenomenon like it is now. I see him staying an AT, he just wasn't revealed.

Gil: I actually see this being the surprise/wtf/retro character. It, however, is yet another 3rd party character owned by Bamco. Like Lloyd and Heihachi, I'm just not sure what their reasoning was for including this Mii costume, only that its possible Bamco wanted the Smash 4 team to gauge who fans might have liked out of the 3 while they worked on Ultimate post-2015.

Majora's Mask: This is a tricky one. The mask is not a character, but primarily owned by Skull Kid. However, due to Skull Kid's "hints" (possible removal as an AT/Replaced with the Moon, item that performs his exact same function as an AT, Young Link's final smash being hidden, remixed MM music in Ultimate, Termina returning, etc) and common acceptance as a possible character for Ultimate, I'll say that its possible he is a character.

So out of all of this, if I had to guess, based solely on Mii Costumes:

Unique Newcomers:
Geno
Skull Kid
Heihachi/Lloyd/Gil

Echo Fighters:
Medusa
Isabelle
Black Knight

AT's:
Viridi
Takamaru (Returning from 4)
Akira/Jacky
Heihachi/Lloyd/Gil (Whomever does not get a newcomer promotion, perhaps none receive one)


I want to make it clear that aside from these characters, everyone else from the Mii costume list is represented so far in Smash Ultimate in some way, new or old! Be it an assist trophy (Ashley, Zero, etc), actual newcomers (K. Rool, Inkling, Chrom, etc), final smash assets (Proto-man, Mega Man .exe,

And just to make clear: This has nothing to do with characters not on this list. Ridley was not a mii costume. Dark Samus was not a Mii costume, Daisy was not a Mii costume. Isaac, a pokemon, Banjo, Bandana Dee, Albert Einstein, and George Washington all still have the ability to get into Smash.

In all seriousness though, this just may point at who we could expect outside of other obvious characters.

Any thoughts?

I’m pretty sure Takamaru was revealed as an AT though...

 

[Pakky]

Spoiler: Miyu (Star Fox)

Spoiler: Morrigan Aensland

Spoiler: Cranky Kong

So, I got to thinking, what if Morrigan was in Smash and revived DarkStalkers

Silly I know but as a follow up to what I said early.

The sea of video games is vast with icons being made every day, adding aliens to the medium is not only a meme but an insult.

Goku (From Dragonball) is a Japanese manga icon, not a video game one.

Interesting thing to note about Geno: There were 6 DLC Packs for Mii Costumes. Geno was the only character for DLC Pack 5: https://www.mariowiki.com/List_of_Mii_Outfits

I'm not sure why this was done, but he also was the only Mii costume to get a title card:

So yeah, Geno has a bit of special treatment by Sakurai and the Smash Developers. There is a reason why people think he's likely in this time around (If Square gave them the right to make these costumes, what's the problem for letting them work on an original character?)

Additionally, if the inclusion of these Mii costumes and their potential sales point to anything (so far, Chrom, K. Rool, and Inkling are in, while Ashley, Knuckles, and Zero are Assist trophies), then the following Characters could still be considered as potentials for Smash Ultimate:

Isabelle
Heihachi (Bamco)
Akira/Jacky (Sega)
Black Knight
Lloyd (Bamco)
Viridi
Monster Hunter (Capcom)
Geno (Square)
Takamaru
Gil (Bamco)
Majora's Mask

With the rest of costumed characters being deconfirmed (either being Assist Trophies, part of a Final Smash or move (Toad), etc).

So going over each:

Isabelle: If Vergeben is correct, she is in

Heihachi and Lloyd: Being Bamco characters and Smash now being a Bamco created game, these costumes may have been added because of this reason (to see if there is any interest in a Bamco character for the game). Either could happen, just don't know IF they'll happen. Could be either AT's or Characters.

Akira/Jacky: Sega reps. To me, Virtua Fighter just seems like a lesser Tekken/Street Fighter in terms of competition so I'm not sure if they'd ever be considered. At most maybe an AT.

Black Knight: As per the screenshots posted before, his absence in the background (if its him) may hint at his inclusion if Sakurai wanted to eliminate redundancy. Echo fighter for Ike is possible.

Viridi: I could see her happening, but I'm not sure how much priority Sakurai would put for her over Medusa, who'd fit better as an Echo fighter (but perhaps he makes her one with different proportions?). However I can see both happening over someone like Hades. She could be a very cool AT however, while Medusa takes the role of Echo fighter.

Monster Hunter: It being conspicuously absent from Rathalos's trailer and likely the difficuly in making a balanced moveset (You'd have 14 different weapon types to choose from) possibly means its not in the base roster at least. I don't see him/her being an AT, since Rathalos is in, but perhaps a DLC character in the future since Monster Hunter is more popular than ever before.

Geno: Explained earlier. I have reasons to believe he is in the game.

Takamaru: Could very well still be an AT. Sakurai has since said that he was planned to be a character, but scrapped due to extreme obscurity for western audiences. Yes Marth/Roy were extremely obscure back in Melee, but the game was not nearly a world phenomenon like it is now. I see him staying an AT, he just wasn't revealed.

Gil: I actually see this being the surprise/wtf/retro character. It, however, is yet another 3rd party character owned by Bamco. Like Lloyd and Heihachi, I'm just not sure what their reasoning was for including this Mii costume, only that its possible Bamco wanted the Smash 4 team to gauge who fans might have liked out of the 3 while they worked on Ultimate post-2015.

Majora's Mask: This is a tricky one. The mask is not a character, but primarily owned by Skull Kid. However, due to Skull Kid's "hints" (possible removal as an AT/Replaced with the Moon, item that performs his exact same function as an AT, Young Link's final smash being hidden, remixed MM music in Ultimate, Termina returning, etc) and common acceptance as a possible character for Ultimate, I'll say that its possible he is a character.

So out of all of this, if I had to guess, based solely on Mii Costumes:

Unique Newcomers:
Geno
Skull Kid
Heihachi/Lloyd/Gil

Echo Fighters:
Medusa
Isabelle
Black Knight

AT's:
Viridi
Takamaru (Returning from 4)
Akira/Jacky
Heihachi/Lloyd/Gil (Whomever does not get a newcomer promotion, perhaps none receive one)


I want to make it clear that aside from these characters, everyone else from the Mii costume list is represented so far in Smash Ultimate in some way, new or old! Be it an assist trophy (Ashley, Zero, etc), actual newcomers (K. Rool, Inkling, Chrom, etc), final smash assets (Proto-man, Mega Man .exe,

And just to make clear: This has nothing to do with characters not on this list. Ridley was not a mii costume. Dark Samus was not a Mii costume, Daisy was not a Mii costume. Isaac, a pokemon, Banjo, Bandana Dee, Albert Einstein, and George Washington all still have the ability to get into Smash.

In all seriousness though, this just may point at who we could expect outside of other obvious characters.

Any thoughts?

Gil is BIG I mean REALL BIG, I didn't even know. He has his own anime or rahter the game series did, back in like '09.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I’m pretty sure Takamaru was revealed as an AT though...

Takamaru is still an AT.

Updated

 

[dezeray112]

I wonder what would be his tagline … Ken echoes in (?)

Ken, Turns Up The Heat!

 

[Deleted member]

Reyn Turns Up The Heat!

"YEAH, I'M TURNING UP THE HEAT!"

 

[Will]

I just had a thought that if Minecraft Steve actually did make it in the game (see my post from like 12 hours ago i guess) then his KO VFX would be the oof sound you make when you die

guess i'm a steve supporter now

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'm expecting Ken and Shadow to show up in the same trailer, one that starts with Ryu vs Sonic and ends up in a team battle.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Really? I would think the model would take the most time, and if they're altering animations to some, I'd think a couple weeks minimum unless a lot of staff are working on it. Dark Pit I could see being extremely quick but some others I'd think would take longer than what you said.

Triple A stuff has to move around very quickly, and even game development in general. A week sounds like little time, but when you have anywhere between 500-1000 people all touching their hands on the game, and you only have less than 100 weeks, stuff is bound to happen, and it's bound to happen very quickly. During the Melee era, it's been stated that 7 clones were easier to do than just 1 newcomer, and while the tools have definitely improved for adding a newcomer, by that logic, they've also improved for adding echo's/glorified alt costumes as I like to call them.

source: hi I'm a game dev

 

[Deleted member]

I just had a thought that if Minecraft Steve actually did make it in the game (see my post from like 12 hours ago i guess) then his KO VFX would be the oof sound you make when you die

guess i'm a steve supporter now

Isn't the "oof" from Roblox? I don't remember any death sounds in Minecraft.

EDIT: Yeah, there's an oof. It's been a while since I last played Minecraft.

 

[Nazyrus]

Sakurai is probably holding the third party echoes for the next Direct, alongside other first party. "I told you to not expect too many new challengers, huh? Take this."

This… could be it. I mean Gamescom is the next thing to a general gaming audience, not solely focused on Nintendo, where they could announce 3rd party echoes just in time. Then again TGS or other events between now and release could be good for announcing them too… I just want more soon, lol

 

[Will]

I'm expecting Ken and Shadow to show up in the same trailer, one that starts with Ryu vs Sonic and ends up in a team battle.

Or maybe they'll be shown separately like all the other Echoes because they aren't clones for newcomers.

 

[kirbstr]

Smash Twitter is bigger than /r/smashbros, SmashBoards, 4chan and GameFAQs' Smash Ultimate fanbases put together.

There's a reason top Smashers stopped posting on SmashBoards and other sites. I'm basing things off my analysis of a thing I have analyzed for almost 2 decades, you are basing a lot of what you are saying on comments like...

"A lot of casuals want him and he was heavily requested in the smash ballot"

Which you have no documented proof of and provided no examples of other than referring back to these sites lamenting as Echo Chambers. We also don't know much about the Ballot other than Bayonetta "won" it, all the newcomers in Ultimate did well on it, and that Sakurai and the dev team are relying a lot on it for player data (rather than reading our polls, data or opinions on sites like this solely).

"and he is a recent relevant character"

Also, what does "relevant" even mean? Does that mean more than 10 people know of and like a character? 100? 10 million? Where is the cutoff point? Words like these should be used after your main point, not as your main point.

"from a very popular and well liked series worldwide..."

We don't play as series, we play as characters. Stop talking about the series for a second and tell me why the masses, not /r/smashbros, not what people in Echo Chambers on 4chan (who even visits that site with a sane mind?), GameFAQs, or SmashBoards want.

Captain Toad is from a well-liked series and has had a game and a port of the game that sold over a million combined copies, yet there he is, disconfirmed. Was he not well liked? Why was he not included for such reasons?

The subjectivity of these things is what makes them so interesting and unique to decipher.

Dude exit polls exist for a reason. The Pushdustin one had him at 7th or something behind a bunch of other already confirmed characters and in a recent expectancy poll he came in a 2nd. I am not making these things up lol. The truth is he was popular in the ballot, he is popular worldwide as evident from his inclusions in basically every kirby game post 2012.

Also you have way too much confidence in your own intuition, you keep bringing up how you have been "doing smash speculation for nearly two decades" or whatever and look, I don't give a damn lol. You made a claim that Bandanna Dee wouldn't drum up hype the way other characters have and because of that he won't be included in the game. I keep bringing up reasons why the character is popular and your response every time is basically "oh he may be popular in _______ but the MASSES don't care about him". Again, what masses? If he's popular basically all over the internet and is a popular character from a popular series, IN WHAT WAY IS HE NOT POPULAR? Just because your OWN twitter echo chamber doesn't include a lot of people who want the character doesn't mean he is not heavily requested.

Yes twitter has a much broader audience than sites like this one, but you realize that every social media site is designed to create a bubble around its users of people and ideas which they like and agree with. I'm done debating this unless you can actually give some solid reasons as to why he is not popular as other characters.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Spoiler: Miyu (Star Fox)

Gil is BIG I mean REALL BIG, I didn't even know. He has his own anime or rahter the game series did, back in like '09.

Partially why I wouldn't be surprised if he was the Bamco Character Sakurai chose (if there is another Bamco character in the game).
He fits the bill as a Retro character to me.

 

[Will]

Isn't the "oof" from Roblox? I don't remember any death sounds in Minecraft.

They have the same context, just different sounds.

 

[Deleted member]

They have the same context, just different sounds.

Oh that oof. Yeah, now I remember.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Sakurai is probably holding the third party echoes for the next Direct, alongside other first party. "I told you to not expect too many new challengers, huh? Take this."

Still think he's playing with us. Not exactly lying, but stretching truth a bit. I think we'll generally be surprised by the number of new fighters.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Does anyone have a clue how long it'd take to make Echoes? I mean, obviously nowhere near the amount of work a full character has, but I'd imagine model work would still take some time, and someone like Dark Samus has a lot more animation changes than say, Dark Pit.

According to Sakurai, the six Melee clones altogether didn't equal the work of one unique newcomer, and while the Echoes can have adjusted animations, they still don't appear to be as different gameplay-wise as the Melee clones were. Based on that quote regarding the Melee clones, for a rough estimate I think Echoes require somewhere around the 5-15% range of the work of a unique newcomer, with the likes of Dark Pit and Richter being in the lower end while the likes of Dark Samus are in the higher end.

 

[Remmy-ro]

We could always argue about Pokemon again. That's always a good time. Or discuss Isabelle and Shadow. Or whether or not Loz and Verge are real.

Or we could start doing Jojo memes again. Those are always a good time.

If we need new topics of discussion I vote we argue whether or not Alpharad is actually funny